Orthodontics Program Rankings

[charlestweed]

It's not the overhead that's the problem, it's getting the patients. You hear of these ortho start-ups in So Cal that charge $2,000 a case and they shut down the doors a few months later.

No, I haven't heard of a start up ortho office in So Cal that charges that low. My ortho fees are a lot higher than that (even the medicaid pays more than that). Every time my TC tells the parents our fees, they are very surprised by how low my office charges. Some say to my TC " Wow, the price is so good. Can you ask the doctor to look at my other kid so I can start both of them?" Or " Can you give me some business cards so I can refer my co-worker's kid to your office?"

If it is a simple 12- month class I case, then $2000 is fine with me. It is still 100x better than doing 20 amalgam fillings....or doing 2 molar RCTs.

Lately, I've had a lot of new starts both at my private practices and at the chains, where I work at. I don't know if this is a sign of the economic recovery or the parents get the $$$ from the tax returns.

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[yojimbo53]

To add to that, there is a huge investigation going down in Texas. Turns out that the people who audited the ortho records that determine whether they are approved or not, were clerical workers with no dental degree; on top of that, they were paid more if they processed more Medicaid cases. Cases that should have been rejected were being approved, because the auditors actually had no clue what they were auditing. Any orthodontist (or GP who does ortho) could file a doctored Medicaid claim and it was guaranteed to be approved. They could even send a driver to pick up the Medicaid patients and bill the State for transportation fees. Talk about a State that is wasteful.... geez. Do a Google search for "Texas Medicaid orthodontist fraud".

Not true at all! Ortho. Medicaid has been cut down significantly and so are the jobs

 

[BlueToothHunter]

To add to that, there is a huge investigation going down in Texas. Turns out that the people who audited the ortho records that determine whether they are approved or not, were clerical workers with no dental degree; on top of that, they were paid more if they processed more Medicaid cases. Cases that should have been rejected were being approved, because the auditors actually had no clue what they were auditing. Any orthodontist (or GP who does ortho) could file a doctored Medicaid claim and it was guaranteed to be approved. They could even send a driver to pick up the Medicaid patients and bill the State for transportation fees. Talk about a State that is wasteful.... geez. Do a Google search for "Texas Medicaid orthodontist fraud".

Found this blog if you want to read about Texas orthodontic mess...

http://blog.dentistthemenace.com/2011/10/taxpayers-spent-13-million-on.html

More on Texas dental reports by Byron Harris of WFAA

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6B7BB6A7BF64572F

 

[orthosm2021]

just curious. why are the living costs for some places ridiculously expensive? 114758 for UCSF sounds ridiculous. even after you subtract tuition, 60K just for the living cost? It just sounds very off to me. correct me if I am wrong. I might just be very naive on this one.

 

[DrDDSman]

just curious. why are the living costs for some places ridiculously expensive? 114758 for UCSF sounds ridiculous. even after you subtract tuition, 60K just for the living cost? It just sounds very off to me. correct me if I am wrong. I might just be very naive on this one.

It looks like it may be an error. The cost of living should be the same across all of the post grad programs and should be similar to the pre-doc program as well. 60K is more along the lines of the total living cost through the duration of the program.

This might affect OPs calculations/rankings?

http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-process/student-budget

 

[class I]

thanks, tooth guy! this list is super helpful, especially since we are in the peak of applying to ortho programs.

what are your thoughts on the future of ortho? reading this was kinda depressing:
http://www.orthodonticproductsonline.com/issues/articles/2012-04_15.asp

 

[Parklife]

Thanks Tooth.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

No, I haven't heard of a start up ortho office in So Cal that charges that low. My ortho fees are a lot higher than that (even the medicaid pays more than that). Every time my TC tells the parents our fees, they are very surprised by how low my office charges. Some say to my TC “ Wow, the price is so good. Can you ask the doctor to look at my other kid so I can start both of them?” Or “ Can you give me some business cards so I can refer my co-worker’s kid to your office?”

If it is a simple 12- month class I case, then $2000 is fine with me. It is still 100x better than doing 20 amalgam fillings....or doing 2 molar RCTs.

Lately, I've had a lot of new starts both at my private practices and at the chains, where I work at. I don't know if this is a sign of the economic recovery or the parents get the $$$ from the tax returns.

A few months ago, I came across a family who brought their kids to my office (as transfer patients) because their orthodontist's office just closed the doors early this year. The kids both were Class 3 with four bi-cuspid extractions. It was a full treatment with at least 24-28 months treatment planned. I was surprised when I found out how much they were charged... $2200 for each of the kids.

I thought... "no wonder the orthodontist closed up the shop! Couldn't afford to pay his lease probably!"

 

[Tooth]

thanks, tooth guy! this list is super helpful, especially since we are in the peak of applying to ortho programs.

what are your thoughts on the future of ortho? reading this was kinda depressing:
http://www.orthodonticproductsonline.com/issues/articles/2012-04_15.asp

That was a very sobering, yet realistic article. Thank you for sharing it.

I think every applicant should take a look at it, read it over with their wife and reconsider just how much they are willing to pay to become an orthodontist. Surely, for some, the list of reasonably priced schools will be the rate limiting factor in the decision and could mean giving up on a dream.

Unfortunately, for most applicants, giving up on the ortho dream is a psychological barrier akin to giving up the family religion. There is just no price that is too high.

In general, we applicants are in a mindset similar to any other asset bubble. I think it's healthy to recognize the bubble and not apply to schools that are obviously affected by it. I don't consider myself to be less passionate about the profession for saying so. This is simply a reality that our generation has to deal with.

The spreadsheet that I made is the best way I have been able to deal with this problem. The copy that I originally uploaded needs serious updating, but I hope it can help you make a sound economic decision when it comes to which schools you apply to.

 

[DentalMan123]

So how accurate is this list?

 

[Tooth]

So how accurate is this list?

Well, it's three years old now. Plus, it wasn't even perfect at its time. It's more difficult than you might think to get programs to simply answer "How much are your tuition and fees?" That being said, the top programs are probably still at the top, middle are probably still in the middle and bottom are probably still near the bottom.

 

[DentalMan123]

Still up to date?

 

[Silent Cool]

Here's a list of programs and how much they charge as well as their length.

Best programs: shortest that pay you a stipend
Worst programs: longest that charge you tuition

 

[Tooth]

So which ones would you group at the top and which ones would be at the bottom?
List?

I'm sorry. Perhaps I don't understand your question. Or perhaps you haven't read the first post in this thread. The top would be the first 3rd. The middle would be the second third and the bottom would be the final third.

 

[Ndeb2015]

great list ! very useful

 

[caravacio]

Thanks Tooth for the hard work. much appreciated, hope you have gotten into a residency program by now

 

[dante72]

this is a great post man
much appreciated