Optometry school attracting the elite!

[nomorelaw]

In the US, the term "physician" is protected by statute in MOST states. In Michigan, physician is reserved ONLY for allopaths (MDs), osteopaths (DOs), podiatrists (DPMs), and oral-max surgeons (DDSs, MDs, or those who have both). Now, the term surgeon, believe it or not, is used more liberally in most jurisdictions. In Michigan, as an example, a dentist can be an oral surgeon, a podiatrist, who has not even trained for surgery, can call himself a "physician & surgeon" of the foot, and even veterinarians, can call themselves surgeons. The term "physician" is more regulated and usually reserved for those aforementioned professions. In Michigan, if an OD calls himself a physician, even an optometric physician, he is going to be charged with the unauthorized practice of medicine and could lose his optometry license, end up in jail, or wind up paying very hefty fees. You should always consult your practice statutes to see if certain terms are forbidden or protected or otherwise reserved.

However, I have seen the term physician used to define any autonomous doctorally-prepared health care professional who engages in the tx, dx, assessment, and medical care of a human being. So, in states like Washington and Oregon, and a few others, folks like chiropractors, psychologists, dentists, optometrists, and naturopaths are considered physicians. The caveat, however, is that such professionals much always qualify their title (e.g., chiropractic physician, optometric physician, psychological physician, naturopathic physician).

The term "doctor" is a title granted based on one's degree, NOT one's profession. Thus, an optometrist is a doctor by virtue of his OD degree, not by his profession. The same is true of anyone with a doctorate, whether professional (MD, DO, DDS, DVM, PharmD, JD, OD, DPT, DPM, AuD, PsyD) or academic (PhD, EdD, ScD, DA, DBA, DSW, ThD, etc.). So, in that sense, even a PT with a DPT degree, a pharmacist with a PharmD, or a lawyer with a JD (although they usually don't use the title outside academe) is just as much a "doctor" as any MD or PhD. It's mostly in the US that we seem to equate the word doctor with an entire profession, which is actually a flawed concept given that in most parts of the world, physicians only have a bachelor's degree (i.e., MBBS).

Optometrist is not a title, but rather a profession. One of the good things (or maybe it's a bad thing???) law school has done is to instill in me the notion that most people are grossly imprecise with words.

Now, having said all that crap, no optometrist should be going around calling himself a physician. Why? Simply because it's deceptive and misrepresentation. It is NOT deceptive for anyone with a doctorate to say "I'm a doctor", although, arguably, since most folks connect the term "doctor" with physician, it can be somewhat misleading among those who are not very well educated insofar as the average, prudent educated person knows or should know that the term "doctor" brings to mind MD/DO in the minds of most people, and therefore, if a dentist or PhD or OD or vet goes around saying "I'm a doctor", while it would not be a lie, or a true deception, he/she should know better because it's going to confuse most people into thinking they are medical doctors, which can be very confusing and possible dangerous.

No one except an MD or DO should call themselves physician; it's simply too deceptive and just plain wrong. If you're a podiatrist, say so. If you're an optometrist, say so. If you're an OD, you really should be more precise and say "I'm an optometrist" rather than "I'm an eye doctor". Why? I just think it's being more specific and explaining what you are/do. "Eye doctor" may or may not confuse folks. It could make people think you're an eye surgeon or ophthalmologist. Saying optometrist bypasses possible confusion. If the patient or whoever is still confused by optometrist, then eye doctor is appropriate.

I'm a psychiatrist, but I usually avoid saying "I'm a doctor", because then, invariably, I have to qualify that with what kind of doctor, so it's just easier to be upfront and admit I'm a head shrinker.

I agree that only an MD/DO should use the term physician. When I was in law school, I would pass a local DC on my way to school and he used the term "chiropractic physician" on his sign. Now, I am not an idiot, but I did not know what DC's could do or what training they received. I figured he as an MD/DC or something like that. As for me, when (provided my wife permits me to attend) I earn my DPM, I will tell people when they ask that I am a podiatrist, not a physician. I think using the physician term will give the impression that I am an MD and can treat and dx outside of my training. I have found that people are not impressed with degrees because so many people have them now. Sure law school was tough, but thousands have done it and the same is true with medicine. I'd be very proud of my medical training whether it is OD, MD, DPM, etc.

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[BKK]

I have been an Optometrist for 10 years now. My military patients address me as Doctor, Doc or Major Kemper, or the Eye guy. Pretty much whatever is good for them.

As far as the "Optometric Physician" title goes, I really do not care to ever use that distinction. The main reason that this title came into usage was mainly for insurance reimbursement. "Our plan is only open to Physicians"....hence the usage of Optometric physician. Some cowboys may have taken this to heart a bit too much, but I do not feel that this title accurately reflects my profession.

Surgery by Optometrists is another avenue that I want to avoid. I do not want to perform surgery. However, if I perform a procedure that I am perfectly capable of performing within the scope of optometry such as Punctal occlusion or epilation, I want to code for those "surgical codes" and be reimbursed for them. I do not believe that myself or the majority of ODs ever desire to perform Phaco, strab or laser surgeries (Refractive or therapeutic).

Just my opinion.

BK

 

[ckyuen]

Bkk summed up what most optometrist I deal with feel. Well put. It think if you put plugs you should be paid the same or if you epilate.

 

[futureOPTO]

It's interesting that as a psychiatrist, I see some of the same issues in the psychiatrist/psychologist debate -- especially with many PsyD/PhD psychologists getting RxPs in some states (e.g., LA, NM, HI). I wonder if all of this "turf" bickering has somehow had a deleterious effect on the patients we serve?

For me, the biggest problem I have with non-physicians trying to enhance their scope of practice is training. However, if a non-physician is well-trained and poses no significant risk to his/her patients, then what is the harm in letting them perform some tasks formerly reserved for MDs?

Now, I'm not talking surgery here. I don't think an OD should ever be allowed to perform any surgical procedure whatsover. If an OD wants to practice medicine and surgery, then go to medical school, do a general surg and ophth residency, and then do what you want to do. However, an OD's training is fairly comprehensive and I don't see a problem with them doing a wide range of primary care duties if it serves their patients safely.

I mean, if NPs and PAs, who have far less training in ocular pathology and tx, can safely handle minor tx of eye conditions, why wouldn't an OD be able to? I think it's a good thing. I just think that there are many ODs out there who go beyond their training and pretend to be physicians. You know, that optometric physician garbage. These are the types who don white coats, insist on using their "doctoral" title all over the place (like in non work-related settings), and think they possess the knowledge to treat a myriad of medical maladies outside the scope of their training. That can be quite scary! You see that in chiropractic and sometimes with psychologists. Medical school has its faults, for sure, but one thing it does is teach doctors how to view problems systemically. I'm not sure that an OD has the medical knowledge regarding systemic disease like diabetes, HTN, CAD, MS, etc, to be able to render effective tx for some ocular conditions. An ophthalmologist is a physician first and then an eye specialist; he knows how various drugs interact and how systemic disease impacts ocular health. An OD is not trained as a physician and lacks this knowledge.

An optometrist should practice to the fullest extent of his training, but should not exceed that scope of practice by delving into the practice of medicine. In some professions, this can be a fine line (e.g., podiatric surgery, OMFS), but it shouldn't be that way for optometry given the nature of the profession.

Remember one thing, if you're not happy with your place in life, and feel that you're unnecessarily constrained by professional limitations, then you can always make an informed decision to leave the profession and do something else. I trained as a physician, became dissatisfied, and then went into law, where I have found my niche. It happens and there is nothing to feel guilty about! If you're an OD and want to do more, consider your options.

Oh, and about the topic...there are many people out there who will say things like an OD (DDS, DPM, PHD, PharmD, etc.) isn't a "real doctor" and that non-physicians are somehow inferior because they couldn't get into medical school. That is pure, unmitigated bullsh|t. Don't ever listen to that. It takes a lot to get into professional school. If you're an OD, or an OD student, or thinking about optometry school, you are obviously not some ***** taking "classes" at a local community college. To get into optometry school takes a lot of work and effort. It may not be the same work and effort needed to get into a top medical school, but so what...who cares about that?

If you're considering optometry, or are in optometry, you should be proud of your accomplishment and be happy with who you are professionally. If, however, you're going into optometry because you couldn't get into medical school, then you're never going to be happy and will always be thinking of what you could have done had you gone to medical school.

Remember this also, it's easier to get into some DO schools than it is to get into some dental schools, vet schools, and possibly even optometry schools. If MD/DO is what you really want, then go for it. If optom is what you really want, don't listen to those idiots who say you're somehow inferior to "real doctors".

Being an MD or DO isn't the end-all-be-all of existence. I can attest to that. Don't be fooled by that common misconception. In many ways, the optometrists have a better lifestyle because they can enter their profession after school, or a year after school if they do a residency, and start making decent money without the excessive financial burdens one incurs in medical school. You guys also can start life earlier. I was very unhappy during my IM/PSY residency. VERY UNHAPPY. Don't regret or lament your decision and enjoy your profession. If you don't, then consider other options.

First , let me say that I have been reading these posts and I just shake my head. I am a 30 something optometric technologist applying for optometry school who has worked with both eye doctors---optometrists (optometric physicians) and ophthalomogists (eye physicians and surgeons) and will say with conviction that 90+% of patients I deal with just call them their eye doctor! I have never ever heard a patient ever utter----"Gee, I am going to see my eye physician and surgeon today..." They would run out of breath saying this. On the same token no patient has EVER said-----"Gee I just saw my optometric physician..." lol Patients view both of them as eye doctors and in some cases---some.....their eye surgeon. Now the whole "physician" label....this is a sensitive issue on this forum and I have to say that there are plenty of ophthalmology practices out there that refer to their optometrists under the label of "our physicians, our doctors, our eye doctors, etc.."

http://www.floridaeyecenter.com/Doctors/index.htm

http://www.nyboer.com/eyecarepro.htm

and plenty of optometric organizations that catagorize their members as optometric physicians...

http://www.oregonoptometry.org/index.asp

http://www.njsop.org/

http://www.oaop.com/


They can say whatever they want but 99% of the public is going to recognize them as optometrists or eye doctors! The whole "optometric physician" term started as an insurance reimbursement issue. One of my friends is a podiatrist and refers to himself as a podiatric physician while my chiropractor has chiropractic physician on his shingle...Who cares? I feel that when I am finished with 4 yrs of optometry school and a 1 yr eye disease residency then I will probably call my self an Optometrist and definitely an eye doctor. It just seems that you have very insecure people on both sides of this issue but I have to agree with ProZack on a most of his points and disagree on a couple. These professions NEED to get together and oficially define the role of each practitioner by A) Having a uniform scope of practice for optometry in every state (every primary eye care procedure or medication should be available including minor surgical procedures----THIS IS NOT SURGERY--like punctal plugs, minor eye lid lesions, and with proper training a YAG, etc Surgical "procedures" do not make a surgeon! B) No optometrist doing REAL surgery without having an "OMFS like" 4-5 year residency tract (including 1 yr of medical school clerkship, 1 year transitional, 3 year ophtho surgery residency) for the 2-3% of them who would want it. This would not cause an over abundance of ophthalmic surgeons rather it would allow the few of these ambitious types a legitimate route and silence this ridiculous issue. C) Unprofessional Tactics from both organized Ophthalmology and Optomery should not be tolerated. The AAO should stop unprofessional tactics like shutting OD's out of national meetings---this only harms patients because 80% of patients in primary eye care see optometrists first! D) Defacto--Optometrists are the Primary Eye Doctors and Ophthalmologists are Eye Surgeons.....Make this an official stance from both professions--Dejure. Anyway optometry and ophthalmology are equally respectable fields. I will be very proud in the future to call myself a doctor of optometry and I chose optometry because it is the best place for me. Just my 10 cents.
Good luck to all of you in what you are doing

 

[erasable]

Defacto--Optometrists are the Primary Eye Doctors and Ophthalmologists are Eye Surgeons.....Make this an official stance from both professions

Although I recognize your statement is an attempt to reconciliate both sides, I dislike your solution. I hope to specialize in Opthalmology and part of the appeal of being an opthalmologist was blending the border of medicine and surgery. I *like* primary care, and just because I happen to be interested in the eye booted out of primary care of the eye. I'd like to follow my patients over time and watch the progression of the eye as people age, both for my scientific and personal satisfaction. My opthalmologist was very kind and always fit me into his hectic schedule and took his time even with his jam packed waiting room. I didn't mind waiting longer just to see him. I want to be an opthalmologist like that even for just a routine exam.

While there is currently some overlap between optomistrists' and opthalmologists' domains, I don't think that ophthalmologists should be kicked out of what is already part of their domain, just because of a cry for peace.

 

[blazenmadison]

While there is currently some overlap between optomistrists' and opthalmologists' domains, I don't think that ophthalmologists should be kicked out of what is already part of their domain, just because of a cry for peace.

You might like to wait 5 hours to see your OMD for a refraction check, but real people don't. We live in a fast-paced environment, and the demand is for quick and accessible care (quality comes 3rd). This is partially fueled by PAs working at Wal-mart/Target.

Good OMDs have their books filled with surgeries and not refractions and color contact options. OMDs spent a lot of years in school to perform surgeries and treat serious pathologies. ODs are the gate keepers. OMDs need ODs and ODs need OMDs. Period. Real professionals will not bicker over tedious things such as physician titles on an online discussion board. The public doesn't care. And 99.9% of ODs don't pretend to be physician/MD.

 

[futureOPTO]

Although I recognize your statement is an attempt to reconciliate both sides, I dislike your solution. I hope to specialize in Opthalmology and part of the appeal of being an opthalmologist was blending the border of medicine and surgery. I *like* primary care, and just because I happen to be interested in the eye booted out of primary care of the eye. I'd like to follow my patients over time and watch the progression of the eye as people age, both for my scientific and personal satisfaction. My opthalmologist was very kind and always fit me into his hectic schedule and took his time even with his jam packed waiting room. I didn't mind waiting longer just to see him. I want to be an opthalmologist like that even for just a routine exam.

While there is currently some overlap between optomistrists' and opthalmologists' domains, I don't think that ophthalmologists should be kicked out of what is already part of their domain, just because of a cry for peace.

I have to agree with you that ophthalmologists who desire primary eye care should be able to render that care. Optometry by definition, by structure, trains only primary eye care doctors while ophthalmology is far more broad in its concept and can produce a broad spectrum of practitioners from primary care eye docs to vitreo-retinal surgeons. The fact is though that 80% of primary eye care in this country is rendered by doctors of optometry as well as controlling most of the referrals. They outnumber ophthalmologists 3 to 1 so this pre-emminence in primary eye care will actually increase because optometry is growing (more graduates.) I just feel there should be a formal understanding between the professions and a respect for the skills of each. In the real world where I work there is a lot of cooperation and respect between OD's and OMD's and a few malcontents here and there who are fortunately not the norm. In the future a medical ophthalmologist and an optometrist are going to be parallel----> this is where optometry is going. I agree with you wholeheartedly and respect your opinion----> enjoy becoming a general ophthalmologist!

 

[Caffeinated]

In the future a medical ophthalmologist and an optometrist are going to be parallel----> this is where optometry is going.

I'm not sure what you mean by "parallel." Can you offer any additional explanation? If you mean "equivalent" then I am going to have to disagree with you. The new technologies in ophthalmology are blending surgical and medical therapeutic modalities (e.g., PDT, anti-VEGF antibody therapy). Optometrists are simply not in a position to start taking on these responsibilities. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be suggesting that in the future, the role of the optometrist will asymptotically approach that of the medical ophthalmologist. Although there is some justifiable overlap in what optometrists and ophthalmologists do, the difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist will never be negligible.

 

[I Surgeon]

I'm not sure what you mean by "parallel." Can you offer any additional explanation? If you mean "equivalent" then I am going to have to disagree with you. The new technologies in ophthalmology are blending surgical and medical therapeutic modalities (e.g., PDT, anti-VEGF antibody therapy). Optometrists are simply not in a position to start taking on these responsibilities. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be suggesting that in the future, the role of the optometrist will asymptotically approach that of the medical ophthalmologist. Although there is some justifiable overlap in what optometrists and ophthalmologists do, the difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist will never be negligible.

 

[ophtho1122]

Period. Real professionals will not bicker over tedious things such as physician titles on an online discussion board. The public doesn't care. And 99.9% of ODs don't pretend to be physician/MD.

-I have to disagree. The public does care, but often doesn't understand the difference between the two professions.
Thoughts on improving the public's knowledge of ophthalmology and eye care. Ophthalmology. 1981 Feb;88(2):31A-33A.
--A Gallup poll taken in September--October 1979, revealed that only 55% of the nation's adults knew the difference between an ophthalmologist and an optometrist.
Other important attitudes toward eye care revealed in the survey lead to the conclusion that ophthalmologists had not been very successful in educating the public as to their role in the health delivery system.
-----
Does the public understand the differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists?Ophthalmic Epidemiol. 1994 Dec;1(3):121-9.
--English Speaking adults over the age of 20 in Los Angeles County in early 90’s surveyed via Professional telephone interviewers. 401 (200 males, 201 females) completed interviews.
Found that the less than 30% knew critical differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists.
--------
National Consumers LeagueVolume X, Issue 16 (11/17/2005)
--600 adults over the age of 25
30% believe optometrists have an MD, and 50% said they could be board certified
Once respondents knew differences between eye care providers, the majority wanted ophthalmologists to:
Prescribe oral medications (92%)
Prescribe eye drops (89%)
Inject medications (93%)
Perform laser surgery (95%)

Respondents also agreed that state medical boards should be responsible for defining what constitutes surgery.

--------
Surveys over the past 27 years consistently reveal that the public does not understand the differences between ophthalmology and optometry.

Optometry, by attempting to advance its scope of practice, has everything to gain and nothing to lose. However, the losers will be the unsuspecting patients who chose to see an optometrist and are unaware of the practitioner’s lack of extensive clinical training as well as the absence of protection this affords patients.

 

[futureOPTO]

-I have to disagree. The public does care, but often doesn't understand the difference between the two professions.
Thoughts on improving the public's knowledge of ophthalmology and eye care. Ophthalmology. 1981 Feb;88(2):31A-33A.
--A Gallup poll taken in September--October 1979, revealed that only 55% of the nation's adults knew the difference between an ophthalmologist and an optometrist.
Other important attitudes toward eye care revealed in the survey lead to the conclusion that ophthalmologists had not been very successful in educating the public as to their role in the health delivery system.
-----
Does the public understand the differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists?Ophthalmic Epidemiol. 1994 Dec;1(3):121-9.
--English Speaking adults over the age of 20 in Los Angeles County in early 90’s surveyed via Professional telephone interviewers. 401 (200 males, 201 females) completed interviews.
Found that the less than 30% knew critical differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists.
--------
National Consumers LeagueVolume X, Issue 16 (11/17/2005)
--600 adults over the age of 25
30% believe optometrists have an MD, and 50% said they could be board certified
Once respondents knew differences between eye care providers, the majority wanted ophthalmologists to:
Prescribe oral medications (92%)
Prescribe eye drops (89%)
Inject medications (93%)
Perform laser surgery (95%)

Respondents also agreed that state medical boards should be responsible for defining what constitutes surgery.

--------
Surveys over the past 27 years consistently reveal that the public does not understand the differences between ophthalmology and optometry.

Optometry, by attempting to advance its scope of practice, has everything to gain and nothing to lose. However, the losers will be the unsuspecting patients who chose to see an optometrist and are unaware of the practitioner’s lack of extensive clinical training as well as the absence of protection this affords patients.

In regard to the primary eye care realm----the optometrists that are graduating from Optmetric programs as of late are very well trained able to render excellent primary eye care. This includes refractive correction with glasses and contacts, screening for serious systemic conditions manifesting themselves in the visual system, prescribing of oral and topical ophthalmic medications within thier scope of practice. The field so rapidly evolving when I am done in 2012 (crossing my fingers ) the field will include more procedures and enhanced scope of practice. I work with OD's and OMD's---patients really dont care---seriously...They know that their OD (most patients 80% of them that is thier eye doctor) is thier primary eye doctor and trust him/her with thier eye meds. They know that the ophthalmologist is the specialist/surgeon who renders more serious care. I do patient histories every day and see many systemic conditions on thier charts---you name it and I have seen it. I have a lot of patients coming through who are on numerous medications--from cardiac to hypertensive to diabetic. The Optometrist I work for primarily (I am an Assistant/Tech) handles all of this thru thourough medical histories and prescribing ophthalmic medications with prudence and caution---anything from Lumigen to Acyclovir, to topical corticosteriod/antimicrobial preparations. There is no diservice to patients here.....Every practitioner has thier realm/scope of practice. There is a Dermatologist where I live who does liposuction-----this alarms the surgical community because he should not be doing this! As long as the OD works within his realm of training--the care rendered is excellent--the same goes for any noble practitioner OD, DO, DDS, MD, etc........

 

[futureOPTO]

I am a longtime lurker and sometime contributer to this forum, and I will add that I am currently in Ophthalmology residency. I, like many of you, have become frustrated by the optometrists' collective pursuit of surgical rights. This topic has been discussed to death on this board, but I may be able to add some new insight. Most optometrists if challenged on the educational rigors of optometry school will brag about how MD's don't know how difficult it REALLY is, and how well educated they are. My impression is that most OD's feel optometry school is on a par with medical school. To be fair, I have never been to optometry school, however it is clear that optometry schools are not attracting the same type of students as medical schools are, if the below posted quote is any indication:

Taken from a current post on the Pre-Optometry forum on SDN discussing what it takes to get in to Optometry school:

For those with a low GPA, there is definitely hope for admissions to optometry. I graduated with a 2.84 in zoology. I was a bit nervous about this, so I applied to five schools and was accepted to four. Needless to say I was shocked! I mean, what about the fifth? Just kidding. I blew the interview at that one.... Seriously, though, I figured I didn't have much chance. I applied late (March). My OATs were stong, though apparently not that exceptional as I am reading lots of you received much better than I (I had a 330). I also had limited optometry viewing experience.

I think that this very limited example re-emphasizes the true difference in the quality of students going into optometry vs. the elite in medical school who match into ophthalmology. I don't think that it is even close. With all of that being said (for which I am sure I will be summarily flogged for by all lurking optom wanna be trolls on this board), intelligence does not always translate into good patient care, and there are many optometrists who do great work. I just wish they would stop trying to encroach on our turf, so we can both exist in a symbiotic relationship.

I have to respond to this posting being an applicant for a doctor of optometry program and working as an Optometric Technologist. This example of 2.84 GPA canidate getting accepted is an extreme exception and by no means the rule. I have close to a 3.5 and a BS with reasonably good OAT scores and although I interviewed this spring---I did not quite make the cut and get an acceptance for 2006 (although I applied very late in the process). You have to take with a grain of salt some of the postings on SDN. I found that to be competitive you need between a 3.5-3.6 GPA and a 330 Total Science/ Academic Average on the OAT-----in MCAT terms for those of us who like analogies it would be rougly a 27-30 range score....(DO med school average is 24, MD med school average is 28). The Optometry schools also want an applicant to have a lot of experience in the field shadowing or working. Getting accepted to Optometry School is on par with Dentistry and on par with some DO programs. I know of 2 people close to me that got accepted to an allopathic medical school one with a 2.98 GPA (in biochemistry) and a 33 on the MCAT--great score and the other (a relative of mine) who went to DO medical school with a 3.1 GPA and a 29 on the MCAT. His school's GPA average for matriculants was 3.36. I applaud the guy who got into optometry school with a 2.84!---how did he do it? Please tell me.....lol That said in the end no one is going to care if my GPA was 3.45 or 3.99 when I have my doctoral degree! I hope this helps.

 

[futureOPTO]

I am a longtime lurker and sometime contributer to this forum, and I will add that I am currently in Ophthalmology residency. I, like many of you, have become frustrated by the optometrists' collective pursuit of surgical rights. This topic has been discussed to death on this board, but I may be able to add some new insight. Most optometrists if challenged on the educational rigors of optometry school will brag about how MD's don't know how difficult it REALLY is, and how well educated they are. My impression is that most OD's feel optometry school is on a par with medical school. To be fair, I have never been to optometry school, however it is clear that optometry schools are not attracting the same type of students as medical schools are, if the below posted quote is any indication:

Taken from a current post on the Pre-Optometry forum on SDN discussing what it takes to get in to Optometry school:

For those with a low GPA, there is definitely hope for admissions to optometry. I graduated with a 2.84 in zoology. I was a bit nervous about this, so I applied to five schools and was accepted to four. Needless to say I was shocked! I mean, what about the fifth? Just kidding. I blew the interview at that one.... Seriously, though, I figured I didn't have much chance. I applied late (March). My OATs were stong, though apparently not that exceptional as I am reading lots of you received much better than I (I had a 330). I also had limited optometry viewing experience.

I think that this very limited example re-emphasizes the true difference in the quality of students going into optometry vs. the elite in medical school who match into ophthalmology. I don't think that it is even close. With all of that being said (for which I am sure I will be summarily flogged for by all lurking optom wanna be trolls on this board), intelligence does not always translate into good patient care, and there are many optometrists who do great work. I just wish they would stop trying to encroach on our turf, so we can both exist in a symbiotic relationship.

Here is some hard data regarding Osteopathic Medical School and Optometry School Statistics..........I will highlight average GPA's below 3.3 and average them overall. Osteopathic Medicine is highly respected and difficult to get accepted to. These DO graduates become physcians....Here is how the OD Students entering in 2005 stacked up in comparison to DO. The OD students will become primary care eye doctors.

Optometry GPA and OAT statistics for 2005 schools in the continental US.

ALABAMA
Univ. AL at Birmingham
www.uab.edu/optometry
GPA OAT
3.52 318
CALIFORNIA
Southern CA College of Optometry
www.scco.edu
3.30 327
CALIFORNIA
University of California Berkeley School of Optometry
http://optometry.berkeley.edu/
3.54 354
FLORIDA
Nova Southeastern Univ.
optometry.nova.edu
3.34 314
ILLINOIS
Illinois College of Opt.
www.ico.edu
3.31 332
INDIANA
Indiana University
www.opt.indiana.edu
3.49 321
MASSACHUSETTS
The New Eng. Coll. of Opt.
www.neco.edu
3.25 316
MICHIGAN
Michigan Coll. of Opt.
www.ferris.edu/mco
3.33 312
MISSOURI
Univ. of MO at St. Louis
www.umsl.edu/~optometry
3.42 318
NEW YORK
State University of NY
www.sunyopt.edu
3.31 352
OKLAHOMA
Northeastern St. Univ.
http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~optometry
3.52 320
OHIO
The Ohio State Univ.
www.optometry.ohio-state.edu
3.53 333
OREGON
Pacific University
www.opt.pacificu.edu/opt/index.html
3.49 329
PENNSYLVANIA
PA Coll. of Optometry
www.pco.edu
3.30 310
TENNESSEE
Southern Coll. of Opt.
www.sco.edu
3.42 327
TEXAS
University of Houston
www.opt.uh.edu
3.40 325

Total GPA average of all US optometry schools schools 3.404

Source: Association of Schools and Colleges of Optometry
http://www.opted.org/info_profile2.cfm

Osteopathic Medical School Statistics for Schools in the continental US

Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine (Kirksville, MO)
Average MCAT: 8.6
Average GPA: 3.3

Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University
Average MCAT: 8.4
Average GPA: 3.4

University of North Texas Health Science Center Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (Fort Worth, TX)
Average MCAT: 8.4
Average GPA: 3.4

Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Athens, OH)
Average MCAT: 8.2
Average GPA: 3.4

Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Tulsa, OK)
Average MCAT: 8.2
Average GPA: 3.4

College of Osteophathic Medicine of the Pacific (Pomona, CA)
Average MCAT: 8.2
Average GPA: 3.2

University of Osteopathic Medicine & Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine & Surgery (Des Moines, Iowa)
Average MCAT: 8.1
Average GPA: 3.3

UMDNJ School of Osteopathic Medicine (Strattford, NJ)
Average MCAT: 8.0
Average GPA: 3.5

Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine (FLA)
Average MCAT: 8.0
Average GPA: 3.4

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
Average MCAT: 8.0
Average GPA: 3.4

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (Philadelphia, PA)
Average MCAT: 7.9
Average GPA: 3.3

University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine (Kansas City, MO)
Average MCAT: 7.7
Average GPA: 3.3

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine (Maine)
Average MCAT: 7.5
Average GPA: 3.2

New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of New York Institute of Technology (Old Westbury, NY)
Average MCAT: 7.3
Average GPA: 3.2

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine (Erie, PA)
Average MCAT: 7.2
Average GPA: 3.1

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine (Lewisburg, WV)
Average MCAT: NA
Average GPA: 3.5

Source: Consumer Research Guide
http://www.consumer-research-guide.com/medical_school.htm?gclid=CJ-M67fnh4YCFTQPFQod6zpuiw


Total Average GPA of all US Osteopathic Medical Schools 3.33125

At 3.404 Optometry school is very competitive. We all know that Osteopathic Medical School is very competitive. A 2.84 GPA canidate is one rare acception to the rule. My whole point is that these DO graduates are every bit the equal of thier MD counterparts. GPA and test scores are not the END ALL in determining who is a good doctor. Instead of making GPA comparisons health professions need to work together on the same plane. Just my 10 cents.

 

[drgregory]

-I have to disagree. The public does care, but often doesn't understand the difference between the two professions.
Thoughts on improving the public's knowledge of ophthalmology and eye care. Ophthalmology. 1981 Feb;88(2):31A-33A.
--A Gallup poll taken in September--October 1979, revealed that only 55% of the nation's adults knew the difference between an ophthalmologist and an optometrist.
Other important attitudes toward eye care revealed in the survey lead to the conclusion that ophthalmologists had not been very successful in educating the public as to their role in the health delivery system.
-----
Does the public understand the differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists?Ophthalmic Epidemiol. 1994 Dec;1(3):121-9.
--English Speaking adults over the age of 20 in Los Angeles County in early 90’s surveyed via Professional telephone interviewers. 401 (200 males, 201 females) completed interviews.
Found that the less than 30% knew critical differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists.
--------
National Consumers LeagueVolume X, Issue 16 (11/17/2005)
--600 adults over the age of 25
30% believe optometrists have an MD, and 50% said they could be board certified
Once respondents knew differences between eye care providers, the majority wanted ophthalmologists to:
Prescribe oral medications (92%)
Prescribe eye drops (89%)
Inject medications (93%)
Perform laser surgery (95%)

Respondents also agreed that state medical boards should be responsible for defining what constitutes surgery.

--------
Surveys over the past 27 years consistently reveal that the public does not understand the differences between ophthalmology and optometry.

Optometry, by attempting to advance its scope of practice, has everything to gain and nothing to lose. However, the losers will be the unsuspecting patients who chose to see an optometrist and are unaware of the practitioner’s lack of extensive clinical training as well as the absence of protection this affords patients.

patients should definately know what type of provider they are seeing. that shouldnt be a problem if ODs stick to non-surgery and MDs stick to surgery. why is this not a problem in dentistry? is it because of demand? face it - there just arent enough eye care consumers standing in line to feed the mouths of ODs and MDs, and throw in the ODs who think they are surgeons and the MDs that are practicing refractive care, and your problem is worse. if you think an OD able to perform punctal plugs is a problem, try a physician's assistant launching Rxs for diabetic and hypertensive meds. i guarantee that if you reduce the number of practicing ODs and ophthalmologists this wouldnt even be an issue.
im tired. lets talk about how medicare is bending us over...

 

[MPS]

Many of the above posts seem to imply that the main difference between ophthalmology and optometry is that the former encompasses surgery. I would argue that optometrists shouldn't be managing most "medical" ophthalmology cases.

 

[PBEA]

Many of the above posts seem to imply that the main difference between ophthalmology and optometry is that the former encompasses surgery. I would argue that optometrists shouldn't be managing most "medical" ophthalmology cases.

It isn't an implication, it IS the main difference. You might argue, about OD skill in the treatment and management of ocular disease, if you like, but it is an argument you will lose.

 

[tfromm]

Here is some hard data regarding Osteopathic Medical School and Optometry School Statistics..........I will highlight average GPA's below 3.3 and average them overall. Osteopathic Medicine is highly respected and difficult to get accepted to. These DO graduates become physcians....Here is how the OD Students entering in 2005 stacked up in comparison to DO. The OD students will become primary care eye doctors.

Total Average GPA of all US Osteopathic Medical Schools 3.33125

At 3.404 Optometry school is very competitive. We all know that Osteopathic Medical School is very competitive. A 2.84 GPA canidate is one rare acception to the rule. My whole point is that these DO graduates are every bit the equal of thier MD counterparts.

What is this post trying to prove. The overwhelming majority of ophthalmologists went to medical school NOT osteopathic school. Comparing OD schools to Osteopathic schools shows nothing. I am not cutting on DOs, because most are great doctors, but I would disagree that getting into osteopathic school is very competitive. It is very difficult for an osteopathic student to obtain an ophthalmology resideny position.

Next time make your comparison more relative: OD schools to MD schools.

 

[MPS]

It isn't an implication, it IS the main difference. You might argue, about OD skill in the treatment and management of ocular disease, if you like, but it is an argument you will lose.

If you honestly believe that an optometrist is just as well equipped as an ophthalmologist to deal with "medical" ophthalmology cases then you're probably either-

a. an optometry student, or -
b. an optometrist who hasn't seen many complex medical ophthalmology cases.

Which is it?

 

[PBEA]

If you honestly believe that an optometrist is just as well equipped as an ophthalmologist to deal with "medical" ophthalmology cases then you're probably either-

a. an optometry student, or -
b. an optometrist who hasn't seen many complex medical ophthalmology cases.

Which is it?

The answer is
c. an optometrist who has seen many complex medical ophthalmic cases. I, of course, refer as needed.

No, I don't think an OD is just as well equipped as an ophthalmologist to deal with ALL "medical" ophthalmology cases. However, if you want to do the math, then we should look at "most" medical ophthalmic cases (as you originally posted), and their incidence. If we do that, then you will find that indeed, OD's are well equipped to handle the overwhelming majority ("most")of ophthalmic cases that actually occur in the population. (I'm talking developed countries here, so forget about including river blindness, etc for pete's sake). In short, your original post is incorrect, you argued, and so you lose.

PS Your follow up post added the word "complex", a specification, I agree with. Provided the case is judged as complex from an OD or OMD standpoint, NOT from any other source (nurse, optician, technician, non-ophthalmic MD, etc).

 

[futureOPTO]

What is this post trying to prove. The overwhelming majority of ophthalmologists went to medical school NOT osteopathic school. Comparing OD schools to Osteopathic schools shows nothing. I am not cutting on DOs, because most are great doctors, but I would disagree that getting into osteopathic school is very competitive. It is very difficult for an osteopathic student to obtain an ophthalmology resideny position.

Next time make your comparison more relative: OD schools to MD schools.

Well, let me graciously answer your question. There are DO Ophthalmologists out there. I am scrubbing in on cataract, LASIK, and lens-implant surgeries with a DO Ophthalmologist this month. My time I spent in observation at a LASIK surgery center was also with a DO Ophthalmologist. They make up only 10-15% of the 10,000 or so Opthalmologists in this country. There are a couple thousand of them out there. That said, the DO Ophthalmology residencies are VERY competitive to get into because there are so FEW of them. My comparison is VALID because these DO Ophthalmologists are your counterparts, your equals so to speak. Thier entrance into medicine was not through as difficult of an application process statistically speaking but the end result is the SAME. The average cumulative GPA for those being accepted to Allopathic Medical Schools is 3.55--so it is highly competitive and more competitive than Optometry School, Osteopathic Medical School, Dental School, or Podiatry School but less competitive than Vet School. Again, my point of using DO as an example just supports my argument that GPA's are not an absolute and fall short in making up a hierarchy. DO Med School Programs are not even close to being as competive as MD Programs to GET IN. BUT are JUST AS DIFFICULT and they produce equal quality physicians and equal quality Ophthalmologists. In conlusion, using GPA as a dividing line between practioners falls short regarding the final product of clinicians because Optometry school and Med school (DO or MD) + Ophthalmology Residency are different programs therefore difficult to have a basis of comparison. Most Ophthalmologists and Optometrists are very bright individuals who wish to improve the quality of thier patients lives and should help each other. Just my 10 cents.

 

[tfromm]

Well, let me graciously answer your question. There are DO Ophthalmologists out there. I am scrubbing in on cataract, LASIK, and lens-implant surgeries with a DO Ophthalmologist this month. My time I spent in observation at a LASIK surgery center was also with a DO Ophthalmologist. They make up only 10-15% of the 10,000 or so Opthalmologists in this country. There are a couple thousand of them out there. That said, the DO Ophthalmology residencies are VERY competitive to get into because there are so FEW of them. My comparison is VALID because these DO Ophthalmologists are your counterparts, your equals so to speak. Thier entrance into medicine was not through as difficult of an application process statistically speaking but the end result is the SAME. The average cumulative GPA for those being accepted to Allopathic Medical Schools is 3.55--so it is highly competitive and more competitive than Optometry School, Osteopathic Medical School, Dental School, or Podiatry School but less competitive than Vet School. Again, my point of using DO as an example just supports my argument that GPA's are not an absolute and fall short in making up a hierarchy. DO Med School Programs are not even close to being as competive as MD Programs to GET IN. BUT are JUST AS DIFFICULT and they produce equal quality physicians and equal quality Ophthalmologists. In conlusion, using GPA as a dividing line between practioners falls short regarding the final product of clinicians because Optometry school and Med school (DO or MD) + Ophthalmology Residency are different programs therefore difficult to have a basis of comparison. Most Ophthalmologists and Optometrists are very bright individuals who wish to improve the quality of thier patients lives and should help each other. Just my 10 cents.

I completely agree...I never meant to say that a DO is any less of a physician. I definitely think that a high GPA does not correlate to great physician. I just thought your comparison seemed a bit skewed. Thanks for the input.

 

[PBEA]

Well, let me graciously answer your question. There are DO Ophthalmologists out there. I am scrubbing in on cataract, LASIK, and lens-implant surgeries with a DO Ophthalmologist this month. My time I spent in observation at a LASIK surgery center was also with a DO Ophthalmologist. They make up only 10-15% of the 10,000 or so Opthalmologists in this country. There are a couple thousand of them out there. That said, the DO Ophthalmology residencies are VERY competitive to get into because there are so FEW of them. My comparison is VALID because these DO Ophthalmologists are your counterparts, your equals so to speak. Thier entrance into medicine was not through as difficult of an application process statistically speaking but the end result is the SAME. The average cumulative GPA for those being accepted to Allopathic Medical Schools is 3.55--so it is highly competitive and more competitive than Optometry School, Osteopathic Medical School, Dental School, or Podiatry School but less competitive than Vet School. Again, my point of using DO as an example just supports my argument that GPA's are not an absolute and fall short in making up a hierarchy. DO Med School Programs are not even close to being as competive as MD Programs to GET IN. BUT are JUST AS DIFFICULT and they produce equal quality physicians and equal quality Ophthalmologists. In conlusion, using GPA as a dividing line between practioners falls short regarding the final product of clinicians because Optometry school and Med school (DO or MD) + Ophthalmology Residency are different programs therefore difficult to have a basis of comparison. Most Ophthalmologists and Optometrists are very bright individuals who wish to improve the quality of thier patients lives and should help each other. Just my 10 cents.

Did I miss something? Or did you just say Vet school was most competitive out of the bunch?

 

[qwopty99]

i don't see how providing these stats, which show that the public blurs the differences between optoms and opths, show that the public cares. if anything, by showing their ignorance, it suggests the public doesn't care.

-I have to disagree. The public does care, but often doesn't understand the difference between the two professions.
Thoughts on improving the public's knowledge of ophthalmology and eye care. Ophthalmology. 1981 Feb;88(2):31A-33A.
--A Gallup poll taken in September--October 1979, revealed that only 55% of the nation's adults knew the difference between an ophthalmologist and an optometrist.
Other important attitudes toward eye care revealed in the survey lead to the conclusion that ophthalmologists had not been very successful in educating the public as to their role in the health delivery system.
-----
Does the public understand the differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists?Ophthalmic Epidemiol. 1994 Dec;1(3):121-9.
--English Speaking adults over the age of 20 in Los Angeles County in early 90’s surveyed via Professional telephone interviewers. 401 (200 males, 201 females) completed interviews.
Found that the less than 30% knew critical differences between ophthalmologists and optometrists.
--------
National Consumers LeagueVolume X, Issue 16 (11/17/2005)
--600 adults over the age of 25
30% believe optometrists have an MD, and 50% said they could be board certified
Once respondents knew differences between eye care providers, the majority wanted ophthalmologists to:
Prescribe oral medications (92%)
Prescribe eye drops (89%)
Inject medications (93%)
Perform laser surgery (95%)

Respondents also agreed that state medical boards should be responsible for defining what constitutes surgery.

--------
Surveys over the past 27 years consistently reveal that the public does not understand the differences between ophthalmology and optometry.

Optometry, by attempting to advance its scope of practice, has everything to gain and nothing to lose. However, the losers will be the unsuspecting patients who chose to see an optometrist and are unaware of the practitioner’s lack of extensive clinical training as well as the absence of protection this affords patients.

 

[I Surgeon]

i don't see how providing these stats, which show that the public blurs the differences between optoms and opths, show that the public cares. if anything, by showing their ignorance, it suggests the public doesn't care.

I think the point of the survey is that if they did know they (at least a majority) would want the doctor (MD) to perform all their care including prescribing their meds. shrrruuummmpp...you hear that sound...that was the point going right over your head.

PS. I would not call the public ignorant...Its hard to tell the difference when optoms falsely call themselves primary care eye doctors and physicians.

 

[futureOPTO]

Did I miss something? Or did you just say Vet school was most competitive out of the bunch?

I just was comparing competiveness of all of those fields--OD,MD,DDS,DO, etc..and statistically because of the low number of VET schools combined with a very high quality of applicant, DVM is the hardest program to get accepted to. This is a fact.....Again, my whole point is----who cares?
All these fields have bright and dedicated people.

 

[futureOPTO]

I think the point of the survey is that if they did know they (at least a majority) would want the doctor (MD) to perform all their care including prescribing their meds. shrrruuummmpp...you hear that sound...that was the point going right over your head.

PS. I would not call the public ignorant...Its hard to tell the difference when optoms falsely call themselves primary care eye doctors and physicians.

Optometrists are not primary care physicians....they are not medical doctors......they are not surgeons.....they ARE however Primary Care Eye DOCTORS! You are trying to insult every OD on here who has worked hard to get thier degree. That crappy survey was biased based on how the questions were worded and to some degree was designed to create the results. Surveys can be designed to produce the results that you want! I work in the REAL WORLD of eye care and I can tell you that every patient that I have ever dealt with refers to thier optometrist as thier eye doctor. When are people like you (I Surgeon) going to understand this? Probably never because you have a piece of paper on the wall that says "Doctor of Medicine" on it---granted you busted your ass for that but so did the DDS, OD, DMD, DC, and DO down the street. Most patients know the difference between thier optometrist (primary eye doctor) and thier family practice physician. They know if they have a GI issue they go to thier family practice physician and if they need an eye exam and/or treatment for conjunctivitis they visit thier optometrist. You are just one of those few MD's that still have that feeling that you are superior to everyone else and have a monopoly on the "doctor" title when it only refers to your academic degree (doctor of podiatric medicine, doctor of optometry, doctor of medicine.) Most MD's that I work with refer to optometrists as eye doctors----not medical doctors or physicians---that would be inaccurate. If you have time between your posts you should go look up where the term "doctor" orginated and it was with PhD's. They are the ones who had this term first and Allopathic medicine along with other health care fields adopted it for marketing and prestige purposes.

Doctors of Optometry (Optometrists)

Have Complete Autonomy
Diagnose disease
Prescribe medications to treat disease (oral and topical meds)
Prescribe medical devices to treat disease (contacts, glasses)
Preform certain minor surgical procedures
Perform diagnostic testing to screen for disease
Comanage of patients with other clinicians
Educate Patients on eye care
Have Doctoral Degrees (OD)

Gee this sounds like hmmmmmm------a doctor!

Optometrists are doctors-------not medical doctors and they dont want to be. I am going to optometry school to be a primary care eye doctor and practice optometry not medicine, not podiatry, not dentistry. Be happy you are a physician and respect your primary care eye doctor friends (OD's) who you will be dealing with!
Have a good day and please stop living in the 1960's.

 

[I Surgeon]

Optometrists are not primary care physicians....they are not medical doctors......they are not surgeons.....they ARE however Primary Care Eye DOCTORS! You are trying to insult every OD on here who has worked hard to get thier degree. That crappy survey was biased based on how the questions were worded and to some degree was designed to create the results. Surveys can be designed to produce the results that you want! I work in the REAL WORLD of eye care and I can tell you that every patient that I have ever dealt with refers to thier optometrist as thier eye doctor. When are people like you (I Surgeon) going to understand this? Probably never because you have a piece of paper on the wall that says "Doctor of Medicine" on it---granted you busted your ass for that but so did the DDS, OD, DMD, DC, and DO down the street. Most patients know the difference between thier optometrist (primary eye doctor) and thier family practice physician. They know if they have a GI issue they go to thier family practice physician and if they need an eye exam and/or treatment for conjunctivitis they visit thier optometrist. You are just one of those few MD's that still have that feeling that you are superior to everyone else and have a monopoly on the "doctor" title when it only refers to your academic degree (doctor of podiatric medicine, doctor of optometry, doctor of medicine.) Most MD's that I work with refer to optometrists as eye doctors----not medical doctors or physicians---that would be inaccurate. If you have time between your posts you should go look up where the term "doctor" orginated and it was with PhD's. They are the ones who had this term first and Allopathic medicine along with other health care fields adopted it for marketing and prestige purposes.

Doctors of Optometry (Optometrists)

Have Complete Autonomy
Diagnose disease
Prescribe medications to treat disease (oral and topical meds)
Prescribe medical devices to treat disease (contacts, glasses)
Preform certain minor surgical procedures
Perform diagnostic testing to screen for disease
Comanage of patients with other clinicians
Educate Patients on eye care
Have Doctoral Degrees (OD)

Gee this sounds like hmmmmmm------a doctor!

Optometrists are doctors-------not medical doctors and they dont want to be. I am going to optometry school to be a primary care eye doctor and practice optometry not medicine, not podiatry, not dentistry. Be happy you are a physician and respect your primary care eye doctor friends (OD's) who you will be dealing with!
Have a good day and please stop living in the 1960's.

Well, that survey was not taken in the 1960's and show that the opinions of a majority of the population would rather have an ophthalmologist to perform these functions of a primary care eye doctor. Are they living in the 1960's? Would not a primary care eye doc entail the duties of a comphrehensive ophthalmologist? Are they not primary care eye docs if they don't do a fellowship? Be happy with your future of being an optometrist and doing refraction, but don't get confused.
I have no problem with OD being called doctor of optometry, however some optoms call themselves primary care eye physicians. "Physician" is confusing to the public and should not be used.
Interesting to note, if that is your criteria for being called a "doctor" listed above, then have not optometrists only been able to be called a "doctor" within the last 15 years, since most of their aggressive lobbying has been within that time. These rights were not earned, but lobbied for and that in itself is not justification to perform them. peeeeeeace out.

 

[PBEA]

I just was comparing competiveness of all of those fields--OD,MD,DDS,DO, etc..and statistically because of the low number of VET schools combined with a very high quality of applicant, DVM is the hardest program to get accepted to. This is a fact.....Again, my whole point is----who cares?
All these fields have bright and dedicated people.

Thanks for the update, and I agree with you regarding the above.

 

[futureOPTO]

Well, that survey was not taken in the 1960's and show that the opinions of a majority of the population would rather have an ophthalmologist to perform these functions of a primary care eye doctor. Are they living in the 1960's? Would not a primary care eye doc entail the duties of a comphrehensive ophthalmologist? Are they not primary care eye docs if they don't do a fellowship? Be happy with your future of being an optometrist and doing refraction, but don't get confused.
I have no problem with OD being called doctor of optometry, however some optoms call themselves primary care eye physicians. "Physician" is confusing to the public and should not be used.
Interesting to note, if that is your criteria for being called a "doctor" listed above, then have not optometrists only been able to be called a "doctor" within the last 15 years, since most of their aggressive lobbying has been within that time. These rights were not earned, but lobbied for and that in itself is not justification to perform them. peeeeeeace out.

Excuse me sir? Happy doing refraction? lol Optometrists treat eye disease if you havent noticed? lol The doc (OD) that I assist writes scripts for anything from lumigen for glaucoma to valcyclovir for herpes zoster-----what the hell are you talking about? I plan on doing VA medical center externships during the last year of school and then an eye disease residency at (hopefully) bascolm palmer--if not in the VA medical system. This is a 1 year residency while fellowship comes with the american academy of optometry------FAAO "Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry." The state I live in is adding Schedule 3 drugs and DEA licenses this year. I will start doing glaucoma research with a state university ophthalmology department in the fall-----I want to work with full scope optometry and treat eye disease not just refraction and I shall.
Now I have to delineate the doctor title for you. The doctor title has been around since 1889 when the Philadelphia Optical College awarded the Doctor of Optics Degree. The OD degree came in to prominence in the 1910's to 1930's with all 10 Optmetry schools in existance by 1950 offering the the Doctor of Optometry Degree. Optometry has evolved from being a "doctor of visual science" who prescribed spectacles to a "doctor of the eyes" who functions as a primary care eye doctor. This change started ocurring with the first DPA (Diagnostic Pharmaceutical Agent) privilege in 1971--Rhode Island. Then for 25 years with the AMA and AAO battling them every step of the way Optometry evolved into what it is today. Medicine fought against this to protect its market share, turf, and political clout---they claimed that optometrists would blind thier patients using dilating drops! lol Anyway, like any business competition is a good thing and benefits the consumer. Optometry has a right to have the privilages it has today and trains its graduates at the highest level of professionalism and patient safety. The malpractice insurance for OD's is among the lowest of doctoral level health care providers. I feel that optometrists should just be referred to as primary eye doctors (99% of patients refer to them as eye doctors) and ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons. This is simple and accurate. Just my 10 cents

 

[I Surgeon]

Excuse me sir? Happy doing refraction? lol Optometrists treat eye disease if you havent noticed? lol The doc (OD) that I assist writes scripts for anything from lumigen for glaucoma to valcyclovir for herpes zoster-----what the hell are you talking about? I plan on doing VA medical center externships during the last year of school and then an eye disease residency at (hopefully) bascolm palmer--if not in the VA medical system. This is a 1 year residency while fellowship comes with the american academy of optometry------FAAO "Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry." The state I live in is adding Schedule 3 drugs and DEA licenses this year. I will start doing glaucoma research with a state university ophthalmology department in the fall-----I want to work with full scope optometry and treat eye disease not just refraction and I shall.
Now I have to delineate the doctor title for you. The doctor title has been around since 1889 when the Philadelphia Optical College awarded the Doctor of Optics Degree. The OD degree came in to prominence in the 1910's to 1930's with all 10 Optmetry schools in existance by 1950 offering the the Doctor of Optometry Degree. Optometry has evolved from being a "doctor of visual science" who prescribed spectacles to a "doctor of the eyes" who functions as a primary care eye doctor. This change started ocurring with the first DPA (Diagnostic Pharmaceutical Agent) privilege in 1971--Rhode Island. Then for 25 years with the AMA and AAO battling them every step of the way Optometry evolved into what it is today. Medicine fought against this to protect its market share, turf, and political clout---they claimed that optometrists would blind thier patients using dilating drops! lol Anyway, like any business competition is a good thing and benefits the consumer. Optometry has a right to have the privilages it has today and trains its graduates at the highest level of professionalism and patient safety. The malpractice insurance for OD's is among the lowest of doctoral level health care providers. I feel that optometrists should just be referred to as primary eye doctors (99% of patients refer to them as eye doctors) and ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons. This is simple and accurate. Just my 10 cents

You need to re read my post and get your panties out of a wad...I don't need the history of getting a doctorate in optometry. I was saying based on your criteria, then optometrists have only been doctors for the last 20 years or so. Apparently, your criteria does not define what a doctor really is. Anyway, ask your collegues, you will mostly be doing refractions in prrivate practice and not see as much pathology. I don't know if an extra year will help you.
Another thing, what is wrong with being called an optometrist? From your time devoted to this thread, it seems you have way too much time on your hands. I'm Out.

 

[futureOPTO]

You need to re read my post and get your panties out of a wad...I don't need the history of getting a doctorate in optometry. I was saying based on your criteria, then optometrists have only been doctors for the last 20 years or so. Apparently, your criteria does not define what a doctor really is. Anyway, ask your collegues, you will mostly be doing refractions in prrivate practice and not see as much pathology. I don't know if an extra year will help you.
Another thing, what is wrong with being called an optometrist? From your time devoted to this thread, it seems you have way too much time on your hands. I'm Out.

Being that I sit in a library most of the time when I am not working I get breaks in between! Oh these great days of studying I can assure you sir that there is no need for degrading comments on here (re: panties)---you are a professional---act like it. If you didnt understand my original post sir I will make it clear for you. My criteria was referring to an optometrist being referred to as an eye doctor in the context of eye care. I know I didnt write that in there because I felt it was implied. Anywho, anyone who has earned a PhD, DDS, OD..etc has a right to be called "doctor" because of the academic degree given. That is a different context. Actually, I like refraction but the site you are employed in has a lot to do with how much pathology you see. The VA medical center has an abundance of pathology and so does any eye hospital setting---bascom palmer, cincinnati eye institute...etc. I plan on working in the VA Medical system or in an ophthalmology practice---I will see plenty of pathology thank you very much. You seem to have too much time on your hands being a surgeon being on here a lot as well! My brother is surgeon and has never been on here because he is BUSY. I am ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Being that I sit in a library most of the time when I am not working I get breaks in between! Oh these great days of studying I can assure you sir that there is no need for degrading comments on here (re: panties)---you are a professional---act like it. If you didnt understand my original post sir I will make it clear for you. My criteria was referring to an optometrist being referred to as an eye doctor in the context of eye care. I know I didnt write that in there because I felt it was implied. Anywho, anyone who has earned a PhD, DDS, OD..etc has a right to be called "doctor" because of the academic degree given. That is a different context. Actually, I like refraction but the site you are employed in has a lot to do with how much pathology you see. The VA medical center has an abundance of pathology and so does any eye hospital setting---bascom palmer, cincinnati eye institute...etc. I plan on working in the VA Medical system or in an ophthalmology practice---I will see plenty of pathology thank you very much. You seem to have too much time on your hands being a surgeon being on here a lot as well! My brother is surgeon and has never been on here because he is BUSY. I am ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

You remind me of a poster from about 2 years back.... have you had other user names?

 

[futureOPTO]

You remind me of a poster from about 2 years back.... have you had other user names?

Nope. I found this site by accident about a month ago and found it to be interesting. I am passionate about optometry and like a good argument!

 

[Ben Chudner]

The doc (OD) that I assist writes scripts for anything from lumigen for glaucoma to valcyclovir for herpes zoster-----what the hell are you talking about?

I would have said from Alphagan for glaucoma to Zymar for conjunctivitis. You know...the whole A to Z thing.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Anyway, ask your collegues, you will mostly be doing refractions in prrivate practice and not see as much pathology. I don't know if an extra year will help you.

This statement always makes me laugh. I Surgeon, are you still in residency or fellowship? I ask only because I find it hilarious how residents and fellows think that patient encounters in private practice are just like what they see during training. The typical day in a private practice ophthalmologist office (not a sub-specialist like retina, glaucoma, etc) is seeing the same types of patients that an optometrist sees. The main difference is that the ophthalmologist does not have to refer out for cataract surgery and is more qualified to treat the more complicated medical case that walk through the door, but those are rare in private practice. I have worked with several general ophthalmologists in private practice and I can assure you that an optometrist could handle their clinic for the vast majority of patients that were seen. I am not saying that OD's are more, or even equally qualified to handle all medical ophthalmology, but I am saying that in private practice ophthalmology the majority of cases are just not that complicated.

 

[drgregory]

as tired as i am with this thread, im going to explain my scenario. you may think the ophthalmologists that i work with are either idiots or genious

we have a large private practice facility. myself and 3 other ODs handle all patient encounters. ALL. including, referrals from emergency physicians, trauma, etc. our surgeons are not at the clinic on 3 of the 5 workdays. naturally, if something comes into our office that we, as ODs, are not comfy with we send to our surgeon WHO IS ALREADY AT THE HOSPITAL DOING SURGERY. do you really think, that as a respected residency, fellowship trained surgeon that you can make any money sitting around doing eye exams and office visits all day? if you do, you are an idiot. our ophthalmologists revenue per hour is 9 times what our OD revenue per hour is. why? they are doing surgery. guess who requested that our little office work like this? the ophthalmologists! we dont really have time to sit around and quibble about "im the best at this because im an OD" or vice versa. we're too busy with patients.

 

[Ben Chudner]

as tired as i am with this thread, im going to explain my scenario. you may think the ophthalmologists that i work with are either idiots or genious.

I choose the latter. This is, in my opinion, the perfect scenario for the doctors as well as the patients.

 

[ophtho1122]

Optometry has a right to have the privilages it has today and trains its graduates at the highest level of professionalism and patient safety. The malpractice insurance for OD's is among the lowest of doctoral level health care providers. I feel that optometrists should just be referred to as primary eye doctors (99% of patients refer to them as eye doctors) and ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons.

-The Public also has the right to know if their "eye doctor" is a board certified M.D., or a non board certified O.D. that has never been to medical school. As the research shows, the public has a poor understanding of the differences between professions, and once educated to the differences, most would prefer O.D.'s only be allowed to prescribe eye glasses/CL's, etc. As one patient put it to me once informing her that O.D.'s don't go to medical school, and are not M.D's...she said "then why do they call themselves doctors?, I thought they were real doctors." The public assumes if you are in the medical profession and call yourself a doctor that you are a board certified M.D., physician. The public trust O.D.'s far too much, not understanding this point.
Second rant, about O.D.'s having low malpractice, etc. As M.D's we have to report all complications that we have with our patients. O.D.'s are not required to do this. This is why when O.D.'s try to show their complication rates to prove their competence, it is misleading. If O.D.'s were required to report complications at the same standard that we M.D.'s have to, I'm sure the complication rates would be staggering. I can't count how many O.D. mess ups that come into our clinic weekly as referrals because they got in over their head and now need bailed out.

 

[JR]

Brace yourselves, ladies and gents! Here we go again

-The Public also has the right to know if their "eye doctor" is a board certified M.D., or a non board certified O.D. that has never been to medical school. As the research shows, the public has a poor understanding of the differences between professions, and once educated to the differences, most would prefer O.D.'s only be allowed to prescribe eye glasses/CL's, etc. As one patient put it to me once informing her that O.D.'s don't go to medical school, and are not M.D's...she said "then why do they call themselves doctors?, I thought they were real doctors." The public assumes if you are in the medical profession and call yourself a doctor that you are a board certified M.D., physician. The public trust O.D.'s far too much, not understanding this point.
Second rant, about O.D.'s having low malpractice, etc. As M.D's we have to report all complications that we have with our patients. O.D.'s are not required to do this. This is why when O.D.'s try to show their complication rates to prove their competence, it is misleading. If O.D.'s were required to report complications at the same standard that we M.D.'s have to, I'm sure the complication rates would be staggering. I can't count how many O.D. mess ups that come into our clinic weekly as referrals because they got in over their head and now need bailed out.

 

[KHE]

Brace yourselves, ladies and gents! Here we go again

What a horrifyingly tiresome thread this is. As usual, it has degenerated into who is a "real doctor" and who isn't and the usual moaning and telling of anecdotes that go along with that.

I would bet $500 that if organized ophthalmology would work with optometry to ensure OD access to managed medical plans, 99.9999% of optometrists would gladly flush the "optometric physician" moniker right down the toilet.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

-The Public also has the right to know if their "eye doctor" is a board certified M.D., or a non board certified O.D. that has never been to medical school.

True

As the research shows, the public has a poor understanding of the differences between professions, and once educated to the differences, most would prefer O.D.'s only be allowed to prescribe eye glasses/CL's, etc. As one patient put it to me once informing her that O.D.'s don't go to medical school, and are not M.D's...she said "then why do they call themselves doctors?, I thought they were real doctors." The public assumes if you are in the medical profession and call yourself a doctor that you are a board certified M.D., physician. The public trust O.D.'s far too much, not understanding this point.

I suspect that much of this is due to a lack of public knowledge concerning optometric education. Plus, if you develop a good doctor-patient relationship early on, they are more likely to trust you no matter your professional initials.

Second rant, about O.D.'s having low malpractice, etc. As M.D's we have to report all complications that we have with our patients. O.D.'s are not required to do this. This is why when O.D.'s try to show their complication rates to prove their competence, it is misleading. If O.D.'s were required to report complications at the same standard that we M.D.'s have to, I'm sure the complication rates would be staggering. I can't count how many O.D. mess ups that come into our clinic weekly as referrals because they got in over their head and now need bailed out.

I was unaware that MDs had to report all complications. Does that include medical complications, or just surgical ones? Who do you report to in those cases? These are honest questions, no argumentative motive to this part.

 

[Ben Chudner]

What a horrifyingly tiresome thread this is. As usual, it has degenerated into who is a "real doctor" and who isn't and the usual moaning and telling of anecdotes that go along with that.

And yet, we can't stop reading it.

I would bet $500 that if organized ophthalmology would work with optometry to ensure OD access to managed medical plans, 99.9999% of optometrists would gladly flush the "optometric physician" moniker right down the toilet.

Ask yourself Ken, what would be the benefit to the ophthalmologists? At the end of the day, the MD's would rather have OD's call themselves optometric physicians, than risk losing patients to them because they are allowed onto panels. By excluding specific provider types, insurance companies are allowing MD's to maintain market share.

 

[Olddog1]

Excuse me sir? Happy doing refraction? lol Optometrists treat eye disease if you havent noticed? lol The doc (OD) that I assist writes scripts for anything from lumigen for glaucoma to valcyclovir for herpes zoster-----what the hell are you talking about? I plan on doing VA medical center externships during the last year of school and then an eye disease residency at (hopefully) bascolm palmer--if not in the VA medical system. This is a 1 year residency while fellowship comes with the american academy of optometry------FAAO "Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry." The state I live in is adding Schedule 3 drugs and DEA licenses this year. I will start doing glaucoma research with a state university ophthalmology department in the fall-----I want to work with full scope optometry and treat eye disease not just refraction and I shall.
Now I have to delineate the doctor title for you. The doctor title has been around since 1889 when the Philadelphia Optical College awarded the Doctor of Optics Degree. The OD degree came in to prominence in the 1910's to 1930's with all 10 Optmetry schools in existance by 1950 offering the the Doctor of Optometry Degree. Optometry has evolved from being a "doctor of visual science" who prescribed spectacles to a "doctor of the eyes" who functions as a primary care eye doctor. This change started ocurring with the first DPA (Diagnostic Pharmaceutical Agent) privilege in 1971--Rhode Island. Then for 25 years with the AMA and AAO battling them every step of the way Optometry evolved into what it is today. Medicine fought against this to protect its market share, turf, and political clout---they claimed that optometrists would blind thier patients using dilating drops! lol Anyway, like any business competition is a good thing and benefits the consumer. Optometry has a right to have the privilages it has today and trains its graduates at the highest level of professionalism and patient safety. The malpractice insurance for OD's is among the lowest of doctoral level health care providers. I feel that optometrists should just be referred to as primary eye doctors (99% of patients refer to them as eye doctors) and ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons. This is simple and accurate. Just my 10 cents

So you are looking forward to getting a DEA license, that should be fun to show off at parties. I am curious, how many hours of pharmacology (not of the eye) do you get in OD school? How many clinical years do you spend on hospital wards? During your "residency" do you manage ICU patients (and why is it called residency?, I am pretty sure historically optom "residents" didn't spend 24/7 in the hospital, oh, thats right, so you can blur the borders even more between MDs and ODs and tell a patient with a straight face you did a "residency")? How do you expect to prescribe systemic medications without understanding the MOA, clearance, side effects, etc..., and seeing these in real patients. What drug on Schedule 3 (or 4) would you have any business prescribing? This is like mailing a drivers license to everyone once they turn 16. You should exhibit competency before being given this privilege (having the state board of optometry say it is OK doesn't count). That being said, I know many optoms who are extremely competent in what they do. Conversely, there are many ophthalmologist who have no idea what they are doing outside a very narrow range. However, I think if you want to practice medicine, and prescribe medications with potential systemic issues, you should go to medical school and not take the path of least resistance.

Also, great idea, "ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons". That would be excellent marketing for the ophthalmologist. Sorry sir I can't check you for diabetic retinopathy or give you a refraction, I don't perform primary eye care, I only know how to operate.

 

[xylem29]

You need to re read my post and get your panties out of a wad...I don't need the history of getting a doctorate in optometry. I was saying based on your criteria, then optometrists have only been doctors for the last 20 years or so. Apparently, your criteria does not define what a doctor really is. Anyway, ask your collegues, you will mostly be doing refractions in prrivate practice and not see as much pathology. I don't know if an extra year will help you.
Another thing, what is wrong with being called an optometrist? From your time devoted to this thread, it seems you have way too much time on your hands. I'm Out.

This is funny...but I always thought receiving a doctorate was different from receiving a doctor of "A" degree? I thought that receiving an MD or OD or whatever else, DC, DDS, you're simply receiving an undergraduate degree...I know for sure that's how it works in Canada. Then there's the doctorate in a particular field, the PhD, which you only receive after making at least one publication (should make 3 or more though), write a thesis, and defend your thesis orally, and this is a graduate degree.

 

[Hines302]

I am curious, how many hours of pharmacology (not of the eye) do you get in OD school? How many clinical years do you spend on hospital wards? During your "residency" do you manage ICU patients (and why is it called residency?, I am pretty sure historically optom "residents" didn't spend 24/7 in the hospital, oh, thats right, so you can blur the borders even more between MDs and ODs and tell a patient with a straight face you did a "residency")? How do you expect to prescribe systemic medications without understanding the MOA, clearance, side effects, etc..., and seeing these in real patients.

OH NO...... Someone better tell all the DPM's, DDS's, and PA's out there that they are not competent to prescribe medication. Also we better forget about all those Dentist, PharmD's and Pods that did a residency..... They obviously just completed one to deceive the public.

To answer your question.... a quick look at OSU's curriculum shows 4 courses in Pharm... and an additional 6 more in Ocular diseases and systemic diseases. (not to mention clinical externships which focus on these)

I do wish OD's were allowed to take Step 1 and then complete a Family Medicine Rotation in a hospital so they could actually see and become better familiar with systemic conditions. I will agree with you in that our education is lacking in that respect.

I wish this thread would die... it makes both of our professions look bad

 

[PurpleMD]

I wish this thread would die... it makes both of our professions look bad

Amen! None of the name calling has helped so far. However, I do agree that the public should know who is treating them, be it the optometrist or the ophthalmologist. It is obvious that there is a significant amount of patients who don't know the qualifications of their primary care provider, whether it is a physician, optometrist, nurse practitioner, or physician assistant. I don't think it is fair for patients to call someone a doctor if they are not (nurse practitioner or PA). And often times during my clinical experiences, I would hear the patients call a PA or NP the doctor word and they would not correct them. I think we as doctors tend to just lay back and let things flow. If we really want change we should be more proactive. I guess that topic would be better addressed in a national conventional or association meeting.

That is all I have to say about that.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

I think you should go after the PA's. They write orals without the md in the office and I don't hear an outcry from medicine. By the way how many hours of pharm do the dentists take? this argument is about money. the OMD's that aren't busy feel threated by the od's. I work w/ 4 md's and they are very happy to let me see the patients while they are in surgery. the md's in my practice are in surgery 3 to 4 days/week. as one MD put it " why would I want to do $75 eye exams when I can get $1000 for doing lasik" (btw he gets more if no co-management) . He does on average 25 to 30 lasik cases/ surgical day. These guys wish I was a medical ophthalmologist so they would never have to come into the office.

 

[UABopt]

Amen! None of the name calling has helped so far. However, I do agree that the public should know who is treating them, be it the optometrist or the ophthalmologist. It is obvious that there is a significant amount of patients who don't know the qualifications of their primary care provider, whether it is a physician, optometrist, nurse practitioner, or physician assistant. I don't think it is fair for patients to call someone a doctor if they are not (nurse practitioner or PA). And often times during my clinical experiences, I would hear the patients call a PA or NP the doctor word and they would not correct them. I think we as doctors tend to just lay back and let things flow. If we really want change we should be more proactive. I guess that topic would be better addressed in a national conventional or association meeting.

That is all I have to say about that.

Most people simply do not care. As an optometry student I have explained the difference between optometrists and ophthalmologists hundreds of times to dozens of people. Conversations generally go something like this: So what do you do? I am an optometry student at UAB. This is normally followed by a confused look. I used to go into a several minute long explanation about the differences in education of an optometrist and an ophthalmologist. I was always very careful to explain that Optometrist performed primary eye care, went to 4 years of undergraduate school, 4 years of optometry school, and were not surgeons and did not go to medical school. Ophthalmologists on the other hand, I would further explain, went 4 years of medical school followed by an extensive residency and were, in general, eye surgeons. This explanation would then be generally be promptly followed by, “great then, when you are done you can do my lasik.” Frustrating to tell you the least, but that’s how it goes.

If MDs don’t have a clue about our education as optometrists, even though we account for the majority of primary eye care in the united states, then how can we expect the general public to understand.

In the end, I have come to the conclusion that most people simply do not care as long as the practitioner is competent and capable. If a patient walks into an eye clinic and I am introduced as an optometrist I don’t feel that I have any more responsibility to explain my education than a dentist or podiatrist or any other practitioner has. I have the responsibility to treat the patient to the same standard of care as any other health care professional including ophthalmologists. If the standard of care for a particular patient’s condition exceeds, my training, what the law will allow me to do, or even my comfort level, I will refer the patient to somebody who can meet this standard. After all the Dentist does not explain to each patient that he sees that he did not go to medical school, but rather went to 4 years of dental school. On the other hand if anybody were to ask me clarify my qualifications to treat them, I would be more than happy to. When I finish school I will be proud to be an optometrist, and certainly have no intention of deceiving the public.

BTW on a side note at UAB we take our pharmacology courses with the dental students if we are not qualified to RX meds then neither are they.

 

[PurpleMD]

Most people simply do not care. .

Have you asked most people? I would not care either if I did not know there was a difference. Well, we can agrue about this back and forth, but I will stop at that. Good job for you for enlightening your patients.

 

[futureOPTO]

So you are looking forward to getting a DEA license, that should be fun to show off at parties. I am curious, how many hours of pharmacology (not of the eye) do you get in OD school? How many clinical years do you spend on hospital wards? During your "residency" do you manage ICU patients (and why is it called residency?, I am pretty sure historically optom "residents" didn't spend 24/7 in the hospital, oh, thats right, so you can blur the borders even more between MDs and ODs and tell a patient with a straight face you did a "residency")? How do you expect to prescribe systemic medications without understanding the MOA, clearance, side effects, etc..., and seeing these in real patients. What drug on Schedule 3 (or 4) would you have any business prescribing? This is like mailing a drivers license to everyone once they turn 16. You should exhibit competency before being given this privilege (having the state board of optometry say it is OK doesn't count). That being said, I know many optoms who are extremely competent in what they do. Conversely, there are many ophthalmologist who have no idea what they are doing outside a very narrow range. However, I think if you want to practice medicine, and prescribe medications with potential systemic issues, you should go to medical school and not take the path of least resistance.

Also, great idea, "ophthalmologists should be referred to as eye surgeons". That would be excellent marketing for the ophthalmologist. Sorry sir I can't check you for diabetic retinopathy or give you a refraction, I don't perform primary eye care, I only know how to operate.

Obviously you need a litte guidance regarding optometric education. I will help you in this endeavor. I will say that you have to realize that Dentists, Optometrists, Podiatrists, all prescribe systemic medications and are trained to do it SAFELY! Here is an example of a doctor of optometry curriculum.

Nova Southeastern University College of Optometry

http://optometry.nova.edu/admissions/study.html



The Doctor of Optometry (O.D.) is a professional degree which requires four years of professional study. During the first two years, students concentrate on anatomy and physiology, general and visual systems, and on principles of ocular and general disease. In addition, they receive lecture, laboratory, and clinical instruction in primary care optometry and the conducting of and the conducting of an optometric examination.

During the second year, students study the diagnosis and treatment of anomalies of vision. In the third year, they begin to examine patients in the University's clinic. They care for adult, pediatric, and geriatric patients, fit contact lenses, and administer visual training.

During the fourth year, students receive extensive training in community health optometry, secondary-tertiary eye care, and other areas of specialized optometric care. Training emphasizes practical experience through externship, student rotation, and clinical practice.

Optometry Curriculum
Fall Term Winter Term
OD 1
OPT 1011 Histology & Embryology
OPTC 1134 Gross Anatomy/
Anatomy of the Head & Neck
OPTC 1233 Biochemistry
OPT 1323 Microbiology
OPT 1445 Geometric Optics
OPT 1511 Vision Testing & Technology
OPT 1621 Public Health I
OPT 1724 Optometric Theory & Methods I
OD 1
OPTC 2023 General Neuroanatomy
OPTC 2144 General Physiology
OPT 2223 Physical Optics
OPT 2323 Visual Optics
OPT 2422 Ocular Anatomy
OPT 2522 Visual Neurophysiology
OPT 2622 Ocular Motility
OPT 2724 Optometric Theory & Methods II
OPT 2822 Public Health II

OD 2
OPTC 3033 General Pathology
OPT 3122 Ocular Physiology
OPTC 3244 General Pharmacology I
OPT 3344 Psychophysics/
Monocular Sensory Processes OPT 3434 Ophthalmic Optics I
OPT 3533 Ocular Disease I
OPT 3624 Optometric Theory & Methods III
OPT 3741 Vision Screening I
OD 2
OPTC 4022 General Pharmacology II
OPT 4122 Ocular Pharmacology
OPT 4234 Ophthalmic Optics II
OPT 4322 Introduction to Binocular Vision
OPT 4434 Anomalies of Binocular Vision I
OPT 4524 Optometric Theory & Methods IV
OPT 4633 Ocular Disease II
OPT 4722 Public Health III
OPT 4811 Public Health IV: Epidemiology
OPT 4941 Vision Screening II

Summer Term
OPT 7111 Primary Care Clinic I
OPT 5021 Clinic Conference

OD 3
OPT 5023 Anomalies of Binocular Vision II
OPT 5123 Contact Lens I
OPT 5233 Ocular Disease III
OPT 5323 Clinical Medicine/Physical Diagnosis
OPT 5411 Geriatric Optometry
OPT 5522 Practice Management I
OPT 5633 Learning Disabilities/Pediatrics
OPT 7122 Primary Care Clinic II
OD 3
OPT 6123 Contact Lens II
OPT 6233 Ocular Disease IV
OPT 6323 Rehabilitative Optometry
OPT 6411 Environmental Optometry
OPT 6522 Practice Management II
OPT 7132 Primary Care Clinic III

OD 4
OPT 7146 Primary Care Clinical Externship
OPT 7214 Cornea & Contact Lens Externship
OPT 7224 Pediatric & Binocular Vision Externship
OPT 7233 Vision Rehabilitation & Geriatric Externship
OPT 7308 Medical & Surgical Care Clinical Externship
OPT 7408 Clinic Elective

There are 3 Pharmacology Classes in bold
There are 4 Ocular Disease Classes Underlined

These curricula in Optometry School do an excellent job preparing Optometrists as Primary Eye Doctors who can prescribe topical and oral ophthalmic drugs safely within their primary care scope. I see this at work every day! I scrubbed in on a 17 cataract surgery day and spent some time with the Ophthalmologist who runs the practice....He has two OD's at his clinics functioning as clinic directors. He feels very comfortable with their abilities prescribing medications that are in their formulary---orals and topicals and trusts them for post op management. You probably need to be a little more open minded about non-MD/DO doctors and do a little research.



PS: there are 1 year optometric residencies in Ocular Disease which focus on the medical management of eye disease with medications (oral and topical) and involve an interdisciplinary set up (Ophthalmologists, other hospital physicians, and Optometrists.)