Opps!! Michael Moore did it again

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Do you really believe that, or are you just repeating what your mommy told you?

Give me a break. If you ever looked a chart describing money spent on healthcare and life expectancy, you'd realize that the US doesn't spend so much because we're "so advanced." We're not the only 1st world country out there. And we're not the only country with obesity problems (and if you knew anything about obesity, you would know that poorer people are far more likely to be overweight and sick in general).

No my mommy didn't tell me that, and you're completely wrong. One of the main reasons why healthcare is so expensive here (in a 1st world country like you've described) is because of presense technology, R&D, and having many more options than people in poorer countries. We aren't the only 1st world country out there - and sure there are other "fat" countries - but we are one of the most unhealthy countries in terms of lifestyle choices having to do with diet/exercise. When you say that poorer people are more likely to be overweight and sick in general, that is true. But you're talking about poorer people in our country (or other similar countries) whose limited resources still allow them to eat the worst foods and whose education about their own health is also "poor." Show me a 3rd world country that has a problem with obesity and I'll agree with you. It is a fact that the largest healthcare expenditures in the US go towards treating diseases/disorders that are almost completely preventable with sufficient diet and lifestlye changes. The reason why this doesn't happen though is because the healthcare providers are reimbursed for procedures and prescriptions rather than prevention. I'm not saying that it would be easy to fix that problem, but that is where the problem lies.

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No my mommy didn't tell me that, and you're completely wrong. One of the main reasons why healthcare is so expensive here (in a 1st world country like you've described) is because of presense technology, R&D, and having many more options than people in poorer countries. We aren't the only 1st world country out there - and sure there are other "fat" countries - but we are one of the most unhealthy countries in terms of lifestyle choices having to do with diet/exercise. When you say that poorer people are more likely to be overweight and sick in general, that is true. But you're talking about poorer people in our country (or other similar countries) whose limited resources still allow them to eat the worst foods and whose education about their own health is also "poor." Show me a 3rd world country that has a problem with obesity and I'll agree with you. It is a fact that the largest healthcare expenditures in the US go towards treating diseases/disorders that are almost completely preventable with sufficient diet and lifestlye changes. The reason why this doesn't happen though is because the healthcare providers are reimbursed for procedures and prescriptions rather than prevention. I'm not saying that it would be easy to fix that problem, but that is where the problem lies.

okey dokey:

CAPE TOWN, South Africa (AP) - Africa, a continent usually synonymous with hunger, is falling prey to obesity. It's a trend driven by new lifestyles and old beliefs that big is beautiful. Ask Nodo Njobo, a plump hairdressing assistant. She is coy about her weight, but like many African women, proud of her "big bum." She says she'd like to be slimmer, but worries how her friends would react.
"Here, if you lose a lot of weight, people automatically think you have TB or AIDS. It's not like in America and Europe where you go on a diet to lose weight," Njobo said.

More than one-third of African women and a quarter of African men are estimated to be overweight, and the World Health Organization predicts that will rise to 41 percent and 30 percent respectively in the next 10 years.

"We have gone from undernutrition to overnutrition without ever having passed healthy nutrition," said Krisela Steyn, the retired director of the South African Medical Research Council's Chronic Disease and Lifestyle unit.

Although the figures are lower than in affluent countries, many experts fear that health systems already stretched by the AIDS virus, malaria and poverty-related diseases may snap under the additional burden of heart disease, strokes, cancer and diabetes, conditions linked to obesity.

Worldwide, an estimated 1 billion people are overweight, compared to 800 million who are undernourished.

Ironically, the poorest are often most vulnerable. Children born with low birth weights to malnourished mothers tend to be more at risk of becoming overweight as adults. They are also more prone to obesity as family members give them too much food to help them catch up, according to experts at a recent conference on chronic disease in Cape Town.

The problem is most pronounced in South Africa, where death rates from obesity and diabetes are on the rise.

Some 56 percent of South African women are now either obese or overweight, compared to fewer than 10 percent who are underweight. More than 17 percent of adolescents here are overweight—for teenage girls, it's 25 percent, according to the Medical Research Council.

The traditional diet is heavy in starch, with foods like maize meal and white bread being staples. Three spoons of sugar in coffee and tea are the norm. And, as elsewhere in the world, high-fat, high-sugar fast foods, snacks and fizzy drinks are in.

And, like elsewhere, growing urbanization has led to less walking and other exercise and the spread of television has led to a generation of couch potatoes rather than athletes.

In South Africa and throughout the continent, it is considered rude to refuse food.

"We face a very difficult situation in trying to manage obesity. We are up against social and traditional norms that being fat is a sign that you are wealthy, you are successful, you are happy, that your husband can feed you," Steyn said in an interview.

"Plus the trend toward less physical activity and the viewpoint that if you are wealthy you don't sweat," she added.

Njobo is typical. She comes from a remote rural village where walking was the main means of getting around. She now works in downtown Cape Town and says she doesn't have time to buy and cook vegetables and lentils so she often grabs convenience foods. She is too tired to exercise after being on her feet all day and after the long bus ride to and from the hair salon. In any case, she wouldn't dream of jogging in the poor suburb where she lives as it is plagued by high crime.

South Africa is not alone. In Cameroon, where the diet is rich in palm oil, cornflower products and red meat, 35 percent of the population is overweight or obese. Similar rates are found in Gambia and Nigeria, particularly among women, according to figures presented at a recent conference organized by the Oxford Health Alliance of health professionals and academics.

These numbers are still far below the industrialized world—only about 2 percent of Africans suffer from diabetes, compared with nearly 8 percent in Europe and North America. But the International Diabetes Federation says Africa's overburdened health systems are ill-equipped to diagnose the disease, and treatment is too expensive most of its victims.

The federation cites the example of a diabetes patient in Bamako, the capital of the desert country of Mali, needing to spend more than $21 on diabetes care a month—more than half the average family's income.

Poor communities with no electricity or refrigerators face the added problem of how to store insulin. Even in relatively sophisticated cities like Cape Town, the number of diabetes sufferers with amputated feet due to late diagnosis and poor treatment is distressingly high.

"It's not true that only the rich have problems with obesity and overweight," says Jean-Claude Mbanya, director of Cameroon's National Obesity Center.

"The poor suffer even more."



Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.
 
okey dokey:

CAPE TOWN, South Africa (AP) - Africa, a continent usually synonymous with hunger, is falling prey to obesity. It's a trend driven by new lifestyles and old beliefs that big is beautiful. Ask Nodo Njobo, a plump hairdressing assistant. She is coy about her weight, but like many African women, proud of her "big bum." She says she'd like to be slimmer, but worries how her friends would react.
"Here, if you lose a lot of weight, people automatically think you have TB or AIDS. It's not like in America and Europe where you go on a diet to lose weight," Njobo said.

More than one-third of African women and a quarter of African men are estimated to be overweight, and the World Health Organization predicts that will rise to 41 percent and 30 percent respectively in the next 10 years.

"We have gone from undernutrition to overnutrition without ever having passed healthy nutrition," said Krisela Steyn, the retired director of the South African Medical Research Council's Chronic Disease and Lifestyle unit.

Although the figures are lower than in affluent countries, many experts fear that health systems already stretched by the AIDS virus, malaria and poverty-related diseases may snap under the additional burden of heart disease, strokes, cancer and diabetes, conditions linked to obesity.

Worldwide, an estimated 1 billion people are overweight, compared to 800 million who are undernourished.

Ironically, the poorest are often most vulnerable. Children born with low birth weights to malnourished mothers tend to be more at risk of becoming overweight as adults. They are also more prone to obesity as family members give them too much food to help them catch up, according to experts at a recent conference on chronic disease in Cape Town.

The problem is most pronounced in South Africa, where death rates from obesity and diabetes are on the rise.

Some 56 percent of South African women are now either obese or overweight, compared to fewer than 10 percent who are underweight. More than 17 percent of adolescents here are overweight—for teenage girls, it's 25 percent, according to the Medical Research Council.

The traditional diet is heavy in starch, with foods like maize meal and white bread being staples. Three spoons of sugar in coffee and tea are the norm. And, as elsewhere in the world, high-fat, high-sugar fast foods, snacks and fizzy drinks are in.

And, like elsewhere, growing urbanization has led to less walking and other exercise and the spread of television has led to a generation of couch potatoes rather than athletes.

In South Africa and throughout the continent, it is considered rude to refuse food.

"We face a very difficult situation in trying to manage obesity. We are up against social and traditional norms that being fat is a sign that you are wealthy, you are successful, you are happy, that your husband can feed you," Steyn said in an interview.

"Plus the trend toward less physical activity and the viewpoint that if you are wealthy you don't sweat," she added.

Njobo is typical. She comes from a remote rural village where walking was the main means of getting around. She now works in downtown Cape Town and says she doesn't have time to buy and cook vegetables and lentils so she often grabs convenience foods. She is too tired to exercise after being on her feet all day and after the long bus ride to and from the hair salon. In any case, she wouldn't dream of jogging in the poor suburb where she lives as it is plagued by high crime.

South Africa is not alone. In Cameroon, where the diet is rich in palm oil, cornflower products and red meat, 35 percent of the population is overweight or obese. Similar rates are found in Gambia and Nigeria, particularly among women, according to figures presented at a recent conference organized by the Oxford Health Alliance of health professionals and academics.

These numbers are still far below the industrialized world—only about 2 percent of Africans suffer from diabetes, compared with nearly 8 percent in Europe and North America. But the International Diabetes Federation says Africa's overburdened health systems are ill-equipped to diagnose the disease, and treatment is too expensive most of its victims.

The federation cites the example of a diabetes patient in Bamako, the capital of the desert country of Mali, needing to spend more than $21 on diabetes care a month—more than half the average family's income.

Poor communities with no electricity or refrigerators face the added problem of how to store insulin. Even in relatively sophisticated cities like Cape Town, the number of diabetes sufferers with amputated feet due to late diagnosis and poor treatment is distressingly high.

"It's not true that only the rich have problems with obesity and overweight," says Jean-Claude Mbanya, director of Cameroon's National Obesity Center.

"The poor suffer even more."



Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.



Well you got me with one example, but I'm still right in my previous post. I'm not sure what else you think is contributing to high healthcare costs... Either way I've discussed this topic w/ plenty of people and can always get someone to agree that with the money it takes to buy cheap, horrible foods you can find even more cheap, good foods. It may not taste is good as a big mac, but it can definately be done. And for the record, those figures are no comparison to the overweight epidemic in the US
 
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Who hijacked my thread first during my absence???
 
Who hijacked my thread first during my absence???

:laugh:

Apparently whenever you mention Michael Moore people get all up in arms (on both sides, lol). Who knew he was that polarizing?
 
when does this movie come out? do you think it will be a topic in med school interviews?
 
We aren't the only 1st world country out there - and sure there are other "fat" countries - but we are one of the most unhealthy countries in terms of lifestyle choices having to do with diet/exercise. Show me a 3rd world country that has a problem with obesity and I'll agree with you.

In developing countries, particularly in Latin America and the Caribbean, obesity rates are growing steadily reaching levels similar or even greater than those of the US. According to the World Health Organization (WHO, 2006), the prevalence of obesity in Mexico (in 2000) for people over 15 years old was 28.1% for women and 18.6% for men. In Chile (in 2003) obesity prevalence was 25.0% for women and 19.0% for men; while in the US (in 2003) for people of the same age group was 21.4% for women and 19.7% for men.

http://paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=70840

In Brazil and Columbia, obesity hovers around 40%
http://www.icn.ch/FactSheets/matters_obesity.pdf
 
Well, I just saw this and more or less the beginning is a little bit over the top with it's examples of people getting screwed by the insurance companies, but it was still pretty good.

I did find it interesting that he actually addressed physician incomes by talking with a London area GP, and the GP was pretty funny when he admitted that he'd probably have to learn to cope with his Audi and his million dollar flat :laugh: And the salary figures the GP gave are pretty accurate from what I understand.

That said, it did seem to gloss over the wait-time issues you will sometimes get with the NHS (most of his wait-time examples were ER visits and such in Canada, which for some reason were all really short...I have no idea if this is actually standard for Canada but ER's in the US definitely need work).

But the truth is that more or less I think patients were very happy with the care they got at NHS hospitals when I was working at a busy London NHS hospital, and the film did seem to capture that feeling. And as his Canadian family members point out in the film, people will complain anywhere.

The going to Cuba section was pretty funny, I think they filmed a "we're going to boat to Cuba" part then just took a plane, lol. And who knew Che Guevera had a daughter?! Or really, that France apparently provides all kinds of crazy social services. Of course he more or less ignored the fact that minorities don't have it so hot in France, and I still have bad memories of every single Parisian French guy being a pompous and rude a-hole to me for no reason when I was there (this doesn't apply to all French people though, since the French people from outside of Paris were nice, and the women in Paris were nice, but for some reason if they were both male and from Paris they'd automatically be a total jerk to me).

Anyways, the movie is worth a watch even if you don't like Moore's political stance, I mean he even bashes Hillary for being bought out by the insurance companies, and there's probably only one dig at Bush stuck in there for old time's sake, lol.

So yeah, it's not a pro-democrat or anti-republican movie so much as anti-insurance company. And the Cuba thing was cool, I dunno how he got Cuban doctors to treat Americans, wonder if Cuba treats foreigners for free if they get sick. There was an example of an American getting hurt while in England and he got healthcare for free from the NHS, but I know that's just because he had an emergency situation (he messed up his shoulder). The NHS doesn't cover non-emergency healthcare for foreigners, but it does cover any serious stuff for free.
 
I wish I could get paid to whine all day long.
 
when does this movie come out? do you think it will be a topic in med school interviews?

It's officially out June 29 according to Wiki. Of course, bootlegs are circulating the internet as I speak.
 
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The problem with the film is that it was way too long! And sometimes random. Seriously? 9/11? Enough with that rhetoric. I think it was good that he didn't devote the film to the Americans who have no health insurance (although he did that for a little bit) but to the Americans who have health insurance but were screwed by them.

At any rate, I agree that France was amazing. And I agree that the U.S. sucks. But! I think his Canadian relatives are just effing crazy and the Cubans--although apparently very good and fair people--are just not accurately portrayed. Certainly their medical services are good as cited by a UK study with an excellent doctor : population ratio but they also have SERIOUS problems including lack of equipment and drugs, rundown infrastructure.

Overall though, this film just increased my self-loathing at wanting to be a part of the problem. Sure doctors aren't the same as the medical insurance establishment, but I think that doctors could instigate change if enough of them cared more about people and said enough.
 
The movie was quite enjoyable. The portrayal of health care in Canada and Cuba where not quite right, but pretty good job with Britain and France. The argument by Michael Moore is that our health care problems are caused by evil insurance companies and we need to switch to socialized medicine. Partly true, but doesn't reflect all the reasons we have bad health care.
Here's why America sucks at health care:
1) The culture of America demands advanced medical technology, low cost, short wait times, and no increase in taxes, a combination that is virtually impossible.
2) Taxes are high, but not high enough. Shifting straight to socialized medicine will not solve the problem. Pooling all tax dollars and money paid to insurance companies into one goverment fund will not provide enough money to provide health care to everyone. Taxes must be increased, but that will piss of more Americans.
3) Health care is a balance of quality, access, and cost. Every health care system must strike a balance between these three. However, unique to the US system is a 4th factor, which is profit. This is where Michael Moore raises a good point. The desire to maximize profits of HMO's and insurance companies has indeed resulted in reduced quality and access to care.
4) Heath care is viewed as a market commodity. Major problem!! Let's assume that the total money in the US is fixed. Money is given from one person to another in exchange for goods. Suppose you're dying from cancer. How much would you be willing to pay to save your life? Problably all of your money! How much would a doctor like to receive to save your life? Probably not that much money. Heath care cost should be based on the minimum money a care provider is willing to receive in exchange for services. That's why a socialized system is eventually required.
5) Doctors control who enter their profession. This directly limits the # of doctors. Supply and demand results in increased salaries as long as the number of doctors remain low.

My solution for heath care: dramantic increase in work/jobs in heath care field and shift to universal health care system. Imagine a socialized system in which there is 1 health care provider for every 4 people. Those 4 people can easily pay that care provider (via 25% of their income). Imagine a non-socialized system of 1 health care provider for every 100 people. That care provider would have a very high cost due to supply and demand and only be able to provide care to a small # of people out of that 100. In conclusion, let more of us extremely qualified individuals into medical school!!! :D
 
I was able to see an advanced screening of this film and must say that I was really impressed by it. I have had a slight disliking for Moore over the years, but must truley say that Sicko is quite different than F-9/11 and Bowling for Columbine. While many will say that his films are one sided, I felt that he did a great job showing the problems that our healthcare system has and how well off other countries are compared to us (healthcare wise and socially). I would recommend checking it out when it comes out at the end of the month, or rent it when it comes out on DVD. I would give it a :thumbup: If anyone else has seen it, I would like to hear what your impression was.
 
Sounds good. I'll let you know my impressions in two weeks (June 29th) when it comes out!
 
I will add that while I have "heard" how socialized medicine works in other countries, I feel as if we (Americans) have been dooped into believing that we have the best health care system in the world. After watching this film, I am starting to question a lot of what I have been taught in school and heard in the media in response to state run healthcare.
 
I will add that while I have "heard" how socialized medicine works in other countries, I feel as if we (Americans) have been dooped into believing that we have the best health care system in the world. After watching this film, I am starting to question a lot of what I have been taught in school and heard in the media in response to state run healthcare.

I don't know if you would be interested but a good supplement to the movie, and where Moore received a lot of his information from for the movie, is a book by Barlett and Steele ( I believe Steele is the pulitzer prize winner) called 'Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business and Bad Medicine'. I believe it came out in 2004...I first heard about the book on NPR where they interviewed the authors...it is a really big eye-opener and if you liked 'Sicko' you will enjoy the book. I am now reading it for the second time since it has been 3 years since I last read it. You can get it really cheap (4$) from Amazon.com

-PlAnEjaNe
 
I was able to see Sicko as well and I loved it. As for the documentary, it follows the same style his previous two as mentioned before in the OP. Compilation of clips and 1st hand interviews. As far as this one goes, it should be especially disconcerting for those going into medicine. It made me want to go another country to practice. Not going to spoil it for you but if you like his other films I also would recommend it. :thumbup:
 
I don't know if you would be interested but a good supplement to the movie, and where Moore received a lot of his information from for the movie, is a book by Barlett and Steele ( I believe Steele is the pulitzer prize winner) called 'Critical Condition: How Health Care in America Became Big Business and Bad Medicine'. I believe it came out in 2004...I first heard about the book on NPR where they interviewed the authors...it is a really big eye-opener and if you liked 'Sicko' you will enjoy the book. I am now reading it for the second time since it has been 3 years since I last read it. You can get it really cheap (4$) from Amazon.com

-PlAnEjaNe

Great, thanks for the recommendation. Does this book follow the history of how HMOs came about? 'Sicko' briefly went over what happened during the Nixon admin but it wasn't enough to satisfy me.
 
Great, thanks for the recommendation. Those this book follow the history of how HMOs came about? 'Sicko' briefly went over what happened during the Nixon admin but it wasn't enough to satisfy me.

This book not only talks about how HMOs came about, it also talks about the transitions that they have gone through since their existence to make them what they are today. It also talks about the 'Wall Street' aspect of health care and thus showing how a 'market system' does not create better health care.

-PlAnEjaNe
 
I was able to see Sicko as well and I loved it. As for the documentary, it follows the same style his previous two as mentioned before in the OP. Compilation of clips and 1st hand interviews. As far as this one goes, it should be especially disconcerting for those going into medicine. It made me want to go another country to practice. Not going to spoil it for you but if you like his other films I also would recommend it. :thumbup:

I was thinking the same exact thing while watching it! Especially when he was interviewing the FM in England. Seems like it would be so much easier to practice and do what we are trained to do and have a passion for over there. I have known (also been warned) that we are getting ourselves into a dirty mess, but maybe I have been naive to the extent?
 
-Who the hell keeps the books in CUBA?

-what kind of accurate data can you get from CUBA?

-Have you ever been to CUBA or any other third world country?

-Do you know how likely it is that a government official that has not been paid his/her salary for 3 months is going to keep good records?

-Do you know what could happen when one man controls all the information you can get from a whole country?

-Why would Cuba give you information that suggests socialism is failing?

-Was the soviet medical system not supposedly the best in the world according to the UN at some point?

-Why don't you guys move to Cuba?


The WHO is where he gets his statistics from if you read 'Critical Condition' by Barlett and Steele (pulitzer prize winner), they quote the same statistics and describe how the WHO comes up with those figures.....just thought you should know. Also, we are ranked...according to the WHO, 37th in health care, just below Costa Rica but right above Paraguay...it's not just Cuba that has better health care than us...there are 35 nations in addition to Cuba.

-PlAnEjaNe
 
Have not & more than likely will not see this movie. Absolutely do not respect Michael Moore as a film maker or an American.

Those of you who are starting med school in the fall or shortly should really consider the consequences of a universal/socialized health care system that Moore & Hiliary are throwing around. Imagine trying to pay off the ridiculous amount of student loans we all graduate having when the government & certain individuals (Hiliary) want to limit the amount of money we can make as physicians...The whole system would have to restructured from the bottom-up w/ medical education, yet you don't hear anyone talking about that.
 
Have not & more than likely will not see this movie. Absolutely do not respect Michael Moore as a film maker or an American.

Those of you who are starting med school in the fall or shortly should really consider the consequences of a universal/socialized health care system that Moore & Hiliary are throwing around. Imagine trying to pay off the ridiculous amount of student loans we all graduate having when the government & certain individuals (Hiliary) want to limit the amount of money we can make as physicians...The whole system would have to restructured from the bottom-up w/ medical education, yet you don't hear anyone talking about that.


Universal health care in America = medicare/medicaid for everybody. Hopefully everyone agrees that would really suck. Our healthcare system has a lot of problems and maybe universal healthcare in other countries works great, but if our politicians think they can come up with a way to have universal healthcare I'd like to see them prove it by fixing medicare first.
 
I was able to see an advanced screening of this film and must say that I was really impressed by it. I have had a slight disliking for Moore over the years, but must truley say that Sicko is quite different than F-9/11 and Bowling for Columbine. While many will say that his films are one sided, I felt that he did a great job showing the problems that our healthcare system has and how well off other countries are compared to us (healthcare wise and socially). I would recommend checking it out when it comes out at the end of the month, or rent it when it comes out on DVD. I would give it a :thumbup: If anyone else has seen it, I would like to hear what your impression was.
I just can't give ANY money to that tree-hugging hippie wannabe! I am sure that I'll catch it once it gets to tv. Til then, the only time I'll watch his fat hippocritical ass or anything pertaining to him will be through South Park making fun of just how pointless this guy's "life work" really is! Sorry for the rant!
 
I just can't give ANY money to that tree-hugging hippie wannabe! I am sure that I'll catch it once it gets to tv. Til then, the only time I'll watch his fat hippocritical ass or anything pertaining to him will be through South Park making fun of just how pointless this guy's "life work" really is! Sorry for the rant!

How can anyone take him seriously when he actually staged "real" footage in Bowling for Columbine? And now he thinks he can break the law and get away with it. :rolleyes:

Loser.

And how is this a DO topic? Shouldn't this be in the healthcare topics forum or the Drs. Lounge?
 
I can't wait to see this movie. Yet again, it will get top awards and recognition throughout the world, and reactionary losers here will holler about what crap it is.

And the US health care system will sink lower than 37th in the world, and we will still pour the most money in it.
 
I can't wait to see this movie. Yet again, it will get top awards and recognition throughout the world, and reactionary losers here will holler about what crap it is.

And the US health care system will sink lower than 37th in the world, and we will still pour the most money in it.

because it is crap. It's a propaganda film made by a self-serving pig.

Thanks for calling me a loser :thumbdown: Pot, meet kettle.
 
I will add that while I have "heard" how socialized medicine works in other countries, I feel as if we (Americans) have been dooped into believing that we have the best health care system in the world. After watching this film, I am starting to question a lot of what I have been taught in school and heard in the media in response to state run healthcare.

Michael Moore plays with and skews the facts to manipulate his audience. It is a fact that in his other movies he cut and pasted interviews together allowing him to change the context of the dialogue. He used clips and interviews that had nothing to do with point he was trying to make. In short, he fabricated evidence to strengthen his position. If his movies were true documentaries made for the scientific or academic arena he would immediately be discredited. Moore is very good about packaging his message and selling it to his audience. Fact check what he is saying before you get naïve and start believing him. Plain and simple, he is a propagandist.
 
Well you got me with one example, but I'm still right in my previous post. I'm not sure what else you think is contributing to high healthcare costs... Either way I've discussed this topic w/ plenty of people and can always get someone to agree that with the money it takes to buy cheap, horrible foods you can find even more cheap, good foods. It may not taste is good as a big mac, but it can definately be done. And for the record, those figures are no comparison to the overweight epidemic in the US

Please name an African Country with both an obesity problem and a higher life expectancy than the US.
 
I believe it is about HMOs.

He also tried to go to Cuba to prove a point about how they have the same life expectancy as us, but about a fourth of the spending on healthcare.

The movie will be released June 29th. I like Michael Moore, but I think I might have to go see Ratatouille first. :p

Look at the population differences. Cuba has a population of roughly 11,000,000 people. The united states has closer to 300,000,000 million people, and thats documented citizens.

The fact that they are only spending 1/4 of what we are spending is considered a lot considered our population is over 29 times larger! If they were spending 1/30 of what we are spending, then Moore might have a case, even then figures would be skewed because of the undocumented population.
 
Look at the population differences. Cuba has a population of roughly 11,000,000 people. The united states has closer to 300,000,000 million people, and thats documented citizens.

The fact that they are only spending 1/4 of what we are spending is considered a lot considered our population is over 29 times larger! If they were spending 1/30 of what we are spending, then Moore might have a case, even then figures would be skewed because of the undocumented population.


Thank you! You'd think the fraction would be per capita, but I guess you never know with Moore.
 
Yup, the US population is huge! The total combined cost of all medical treatment is so high that even a socialized system cannot pay for all of it. For a complete switch to a socialized system, Americans must be willing to give up high-tech care/medical advancment and pay more taxes in exchange for universal health care. Are we ready?
 
I can't wait to see this movie. Yet again, it will get top awards and recognition throughout the world, and reactionary losers here will holler about what crap it is.

And the US health care system will sink lower than 37th in the world, and we will still pour the most money in it.
HAhaHa! I am sorry, but I knew some nerd would have to say something stupid, and solidify just why there is a need to limit the gift of procreation to those of us who are actually able to secure a date from other ways aside than mail order marriages.
I served in Iraq with two of the Marines that fat ass moore "interviewed" [butchered is far more appropriate!]. He altered their statements and devestated both their personal lives, not to even mention their careers. I saw first hand just how badly "he" [the coward moore] twisted these gentlemens' statements, causing them enormous emotional/mental anguish, far beyond a realm that you could ever begin to comprehend.
So the next time some ****** tries to articulate that someone else is a "loser", pick a fight with someone that isn't going to beat your window-licking butt at your own game... Just my .2 cents :love:
 
HAhaHa! I am sorry, but I knew some nerd would have to say something stupid, and solidify just why there is a need to limit the gift of procreation to those of us who are actually able to secure a date from other ways aside than mail order marriages.
I served in Iraq with two of the Marines that fat ass moore "interviewed" [butchered is far more appropriate!]. He altered their statements and devestated both their personal lives, not to even mention their careers. I saw first hand just how badly "he" [the coward moore] twisted these gentlemens' statements, causing them enormous emotional/mental anguish, far beyond a realm that you could ever begin to comprehend.
So the next time some ****** tries to articulate that someone else is a "loser", pick a fight with someone that isn't going to beat your window-licking butt at your own game... Just my .2 cents :love:

Wow, you served with 2 of the very same Marines that he interviewed, and just happened to also see this post on SDN. Small world... and just so chock full of so many coinkidinks, dontcha thinks?

The cowardly Moore twisted their statements, devastated their lives and caused them enormous emotional/mental anguish, far beyond a realm that I (or the poster you're responding to) could begin to comprehend?!? Wow! that's some serious emotional/mental anguish and devastation. I was in the military for about 11 years, and I'm just trying to picture that kind of devastation and anguish, but it's escaping me. Sort of like God, if s/he existed and were actually omnipotent, creating something too heavy for God to pick up... you're just blowing my mind with your hyperbolic fantasies.

Aside from personal insults regarding procreation and IQ, bragging about beating someone somehow... not sure exactly who or how, and obvious fabrications about where you were with whom in the past, oh and of course the threat to not ever do any of whatever it is you were so offended by, again, lest you pummel them with your amazing intellectual superiority (once again), do you actually have a single, valid point to your post?
 
Before this turns into a flame war about Fahrenheit instead of being about Sicko, here is an excerpt from the US News & World interview of Michael Moore about his recent film:

Do any of the 2008 presidential candidates offer a solution [to healthcare] that you think is workable?


No. Edwards is the only one who's come out with a really detailed plan, and his plan's no good because he wants to put taxpayers' money into the private health insurance system. We need to cut out the middleman. Healthcare should be between the doctor and the patient. And if the doctor says something needs to be done, the government should guarantee it gets paid for.


--

I realize Michael Moore is overweight. To the people in this thread that keep bringing that up, please stop as it makes you look silly. If only people who were in shape knew how to make great health policy, then I imagine the Policy & Steering committee in the senate would lose half its members. I will admit that it is a little ironic considering the movie is about healthcare). I also realize that he has at times spun like Bill O'Reilly with a crack habit. However, for the above statement alone I think the movie deserves a look.

Insurance companies are really the most repulsive thing I've ever dealt with. In my own life, I've been on both sides of the stethoscope many times--putting control in the hands of bureacracy is just plain stupid. I think I can put 9 bucks down to go see what Michael has to say. It'll be a nice break from my 80 hour work week :/

By the way, you can find the rest of the interview here:

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/070621/21health.moore.htm

I think it's worth it to walk into the movie trying to be as unaffected by the debacle of Fahrenheit 9/11 as possible.

Off topic: I think after I saw Columbine I posted on here about gun control and got torn down by all the ER residents.. wonder if SDN still has that post. Think its been almost four years.. eek i'm old :)
 
Yup, the US population is huge! The total combined cost of all medical treatment is so high that even a socialized system cannot pay for all of it. For a complete switch to a socialized system, Americans must be willing to give up high-tech care/medical advancment and pay more taxes in exchange for universal health care. Are we ready?

?? I'm not an economic or social theorist, but I would imagine that it is not the gross population size that matters so much as the ratio of [money : people]. I also think it's of note that Japan (population: 130 million) and Germany (population: 80 million) are both higher than us in the infamous WHO rankings (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html). Of course, neither is 300 million strong, but we have a good bit more capital than they do. There might be something to take home from that.



That being said, I think it would be worthwhile to realize the limitations of the rankings. Here are two articles about them that I thought were interesting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1085260,00.html
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031201/drmarc

Probably the best line was from the Gaurdian: "Many said it would be more appropriate to look only at those deaths that were avoidable through timely and effective healthcare, such as some cancers and diabetes." That is to say, perhaps we should focus on the things that can be prevented by what medicine currently knows (ie. HIV, cancer, diabetes, infectious disease, MIs, etc.) rather than including the causes of death whose causes we can't do anything about at our current level of knowledge.

Not sure my meaning completely came across there, but let me know what you all think.
 
Before this turns into a flame war about Fahrenheit instead of being about Sicko, here is an excerpt from the US News & World interview of Michael Moore about his recent film:

Do any of the 2008 presidential candidates offer a solution [to healthcare] that you think is workable?


No. Edwards is the only one who's come out with a really detailed plan, and his plan's no good because he wants to put taxpayers' money into the private health insurance system. We need to cut out the middleman. Healthcare should be between the doctor and the patient. And if the doctor says something needs to be done, the government should guarantee it gets paid for.


--

I realize Michael Moore is overweight. To the people in this thread that keep bringing that up, please stop as it makes you look silly. If only people who were in shape knew how to make great health policy, then I imagine the Policy & Steering committee in the senate would lose half its members. I will admit that it is a little ironic considering the movie is about healthcare). I also realize that he has at times spun like Bill O'Reilly with a crack habit. However, for the above statement alone I think the movie deserves a look.

Insurance companies are really the most repulsive thing I've ever dealt with. In my own life, I've been on both sides of the stethoscope many times--putting control in the hands of bureacracy is just plain stupid. I think I can put 9 bucks down to go see what Michael has to say. It'll be a nice break from my 80 hour work week :/

By the way, you can find the rest of the interview here:

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/070621/21health.moore.htm

I think it's worth it to walk into the movie trying to be as unaffected by the debacle of Fahrenheit 9/11 as possible.

Off topic: I think after I saw Columbine I posted on here about gun control and got torn down by all the ER residents.. wonder if SDN still has that post. Think its been almost four years.. eek i'm old :)

Thank you. Finally an intelligent response. I too, have had to laugh every time I see the completely irrelevant "fat Michael Moore" reference on this thread from people on a site who (one assumes) at least ASPIRE to be undertaking a highly demanding intellectual activity (med school), and should therefore have some ability to argue with logical, coherent thought processes w/o making asinine statements like that.

I also think that's a very interesting statement to be made - the above interview statement you quoted.

At the very minimum, love Michael Moore or hate him, who else is putting out material that at least raises these very profound (and troubling) issues? Everyone who is considering being a physician as a career needs to seriously look at the health insurance industry. It will affect you (us) on a daily basis in your practice, in some ways more than anything you could possibly learn in med school.
 
Thank you. Finally an intelligent response. I too, have had to laugh every time I see the completely irrelevant "fat Michael Moore" reference on this thread from people on a site who (one assumes) at least ASPIRE to be undertaking a highly demanding intellectual activity (med school), and should therefore have some ability to argue with logical, coherent thought processes w/o making asinine statements like that.

I also think that's a very interesting statement to be made - the above interview statement you quoted.

At the very minimum, love Michael Moore or hate him, who else is putting out material that at least raises these very profound (and troubling) issues? Everyone who is considering being a physician as a career needs to seriously look at the health insurance industry. It will affect you (us) on a daily basis in your practice, in some ways more than anything you could possibly learn in med school.


I think some of the "fat" references were there to point out the irony of a guy demanding that someone else pay for healthcare when he has done so little to protect his own health.
 
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