footshazam
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This is sarcasm right lol?
One Board Proposition at APMA HOD
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We can still consider enrollment crises are somehow true. For example, the class of 2027 now is 592, when they graduate and apply for residency, I can assume it will be around 510-520 or less
But the 2026 enrollment right now as the 2nd year, they only have 506, when they apply for residency it should be 470-480, or even less
Class of 2024 has 679 student when they're 1st year, now they have ~560-565 applying for residency. This year is the peak among recent years.
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That's why we have ABPM!
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You bring up a good question that I don't know we've ever gotten a good answer to. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't shut podiatrists out of all podiatry. But what would an ABFAS flunk-out not be able to do?
Can they still ride the pus bus? Can they still do bumpectomies? Can they still do metatarsal osteotomies? Arthrodesis? Where do you draw the line? What does flunking ABFAS really even mean, if anything?
Hybrocure
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I mean we spend the first years out of podiatry doing anything we feel like we can to the best of our ability without having ABFAS cert as a profession too. To practice for 7 years and do well, not lose your license etc then be told well you failed ABFAS now you’re screwed is just silly
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Just for clarification….you state that you have one of the busiest practices in the country? In prior posts I thought you were an associate in a practice.
And how do you determine that you have one of the busiest practices in the country? Other than that crap PM News, what source are you using to compare practices.
This isn’t antagonistic, I’m sincerely curious. Thanks.
Retrograde_Nail
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This is a troll account you are replying to. It’s not serious.
Retrograde_Nail
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They can because they work under MD/DOs or they function like a primary care provider independently who happen to treat and manage some foot pathology. Although my direct experience with them is that they have no idea what they are doing.
Retrograde_Nail
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No offense if you are well trained and educated and make sound clinical decisions over your surgical patients then you have nothing to worry about.
But if you were a crappy student who should have never been admitted and you did a very bad residency and you literally learned nothing then you should be worried.
ABFAS is not a hard exam to pass. People just don’t want to put any kind of effort into passing it.
Hybrocure
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It’s less so the didactic moreso the case submissions that bother me. I am ABFAS qualified and have heard too many horror stories of people getting shafted on case review
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Yeah it happens. Happened to me. Passed next time. It's not perfect. But it works.
Hybrocure
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If you fail and need to retake or resubmit cases do they give you some sort of extension for purposes of hospital privileges?
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Every hospital is different.
Most are pretty lax once you're on and bringing cases and not having issues.
As was said, ABFAS is just not that hard. It's nitpicky and they want to see that you are doing the cases and getting fair outcomes, but it's not an unfair process. If the documentation is missing a lot or outcomes are very bad, you will fail.... learn, and fix the major holes in your charting, and then just re-submit. RRA is fairly rare only because most DPMs don't get too many of those refers, and many don't have the training to do those cases.
Just my experience but I’ll share some of the contracts our 3rd years got. Not at a top tier residency by any means, but also not a bad one.
1. Hospital employed in rural area, base salary 300k with RVU bonus potential. Also has student loan repayment (certain amount per year but can’t remember how much).
2. Hospital employed in mid size city, base 245k with RVU bonus potential.
3. Hospital employed in and around large city (2 hospitals and several clinics). Base 265k with RVU bonus potential. 25k loan repayment per year.
4. PP associate in major metropolitan area. 150k base with some bonus structure that I don’t remember the details of but they said it does include DME.
All of us got our jobs by essentially cold calling but there are good opportunities out there if you look hard enough or get lucky. Just some hope for the floundering students or residents out there.
1. Hospital employed in rural area, base salary 300k with RVU bonus potential. Also has student loan repayment (certain amount per year but can’t remember how much).
2. Hospital employed in mid size city, base 245k with RVU bonus potential.
3. Hospital employed in and around large city (2 hospitals and several clinics). Base 265k with RVU bonus potential. 25k loan repayment per year.
4. PP associate in major metropolitan area. 150k base with some bonus structure that I don’t remember the details of but they said it does include DME.
All of us got our jobs by essentially cold calling but there are good opportunities out there if you look hard enough or get lucky. Just some hope for the floundering students or residents out there.
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If possible, do you care to share out of all 4 jobs how many stated in their contract or bylaws “ABFAS required”?
My guess is 3/4 of those will accept ABPM
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4 = 'some of' the 3rd years?
When you count the fact that a lot of pgy3 go to fellowship and some won't share their income details, that pretty much puts you at MedStar or Wycoff that takes over 5/yr
That's cool, though... good job putting in the work on cold calls and networking. Those type of incomes and jobs are fairly hard to get until ABFAS cert. You can knock out loans fairly fast and get cases for BC at most of thoes. I go back and forth on whether DPMs are more marketable to hospitals fresh out of training ("blank slate" and potentially cheap) or once in practice for a bit (usually exp and BC, but might have baggage or want more money). It's probably a toss-up... and either type of applicant still needs cold calls, networking in the end. That's the bottom line for podiatry (make your own luck!), and congrats.
You are looking at it in the wrong way...
ABFAS is required by a minority of hospitals (for surgical privileges). Those are typically metro hospitals.
However, ABFAS is preferred for the vast majority of good jobs in podiatry (PP pod, ortho, hospital, MSG, etc). Whether they prefer ABFAS cert or will take ABFAS qual or will take anyone is up to the individual hiring group/facility. Very few will flat out say ABFAS required, but it's the well-known case that it's preferred for most and required for some. Good podiatry jobs just get such a flood of apps, and it's a pretty logical criteria.
It is very hard for ABFAS qual to be required by any job hiring new grads since the pgy3 won't even know that they passed until later (Nov/Dec?) sometime in mid pgy3 once they've probably already been offered the job and contract. There are a few that could rescind the offer if the pgy3 failed ABFAS qual, but that'd be because the main/only facility requires it for privileges. Most jobs like that wouldn't be interviewing too many candidates who are in reasonable jeopardy of failing BQ, though... a good number of residencies have near 100% historical pass rates for ABFAS qual.
Precisely. ^^^
I'm amazed at the number of podiatry grads who give up who could likely pass ABFAS with a bit of study or time collecting case info.
That just wouldn't happen for ortho, gen surg, plastics, OB, etc boards. Their pirst few years out into practice are hugely focused on documenting for board cert (and they prepped for the didactics pt1 hard in residency).
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I find it funny complaining that it asked about bone tumors then saying after you weren't prepared.
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Thanks for answering. Just thought that information would be relevant under a boards thread.
I asked the question because I had multiple offers that stipulated ABFAS as a requirement. One of them was 120k base no bonus.
The place I signed for takes ABPM and I am able to operate at all 6 locations with that credential. My base alone is 2x previous offer, 3x + with bonus.
Do not let anyone, MD/DO/DPM, use the extra letters behind your name as a way to hold you down professionally or as a lesser healthcare professional. Just focus on practicing good medicine and helping people. Your skills are more important than your credentials.
I asked the question because I had multiple offers that stipulated ABFAS as a requirement. One of them was 120k base no bonus.
The place I signed for takes ABPM and I am able to operate at all 6 locations with that credential. My base alone is 2x previous offer, 3x + with bonus.
Do not let anyone, MD/DO/DPM, use the extra letters behind your name as a way to hold you down professionally or as a lesser healthcare professional. Just focus on practicing good medicine and helping people. Your skills are more important than your credentials.
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Would you recuse yourself from having any involvement in the new board if it were to come to fruition?
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Not sure if this was for me. I believe in one board. So I would accept it if they make the process simple. Not going to break my back and restudy for more exams and do more useless case submissions.
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Update:
Proposition 2-24 Single Certifying Board in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery passed the APMA HOD with 63% of the vote.
Proposition 2-24 Single Certifying Board in Podiatric Medicine and Surgery passed the APMA HOD with 63% of the vote.
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Haha, I think anyone with a pulse knows the answer there.
Very nice! What's the ETA on having the single board available? This ABFAS superiority complex needs to go!
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The reason the public is confused about podiatry is not because of board certification. Hell, I didn't even know what board certification was until I started residency.
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I don’t see how transitioning to one board for everyone to be certified by helps the profession. If anything it is a step back. The standard and requirements for getting certification will be lowered in a profession that is already riddled with podiatrists that aren’t trained to or aren’t capable of even practicing to our full scope with acceptable outcomes. Making it easier to be certified to do so should not be the goal. The goal should be to cap and reduce school sizes, shut down residencies that do not meet that standard or do so fraudulently (double scrub, cooking logs, etc.), and elevate the ones that are so eventually everyone coming out of training is well trained to practice full scope. Now if you want to do that after you finish that’s up to the individual, but the standard of training should be such. If you truly want to advance our profession that standard should be ABFAS or something like it. If you think ortho residents/ortho foot and ankle fellows couldn’t pass it with similar preparation you're tripping. It may not be perfect, but their standard is definitely better than the standard of ABPM and definitely better than what this ABPM proposed unified board will be. I don’t know how much more obvious it could be that the majority of those pushing this are ones that couldn’t get certified or hold a grudge.
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LastToeStanding
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Having ABFAS certification isn't a superiority complex... it is a standard that anyone who worked hard in school and went to a good residency can obtain. Appropriate documentation is taught as early on as 3rd year in podiatry school, and templates can be made to make sure your surgical plan is understood and appropriate exams were performed. If your documentation doesn't hold up for your case submission, than I cant imagine it would hold up in a court law should something happen.
The actual surgery/imaging is a different story. If that is what is preventing you from becoming certified then it is a totally different issue.
The actual surgery/imaging is a different story. If that is what is preventing you from becoming certified then it is a totally different issue.
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Nobody is saying that ABFAS is too difficult. The pass rate is pitiful though. I agree that anyone who properly studies can pass it.
I shared our practice exam with some of my allopathic resident friends and even they think it is a joke. 4 different exams to specialize in a foot? The CBPS part is a literal joke. I almost shared it with my orthopedic attendings but then I didn’t want them to laugh at me and lose all respect they had of me.
If you actually think the ABFAS is such a good exam and that is the exam that determines real doctor from quack doctors, then you need to look at other surgical boards. Even their case submission is better than ABFAS.
Step outside the podiatry bubble and quit acting like ABFAS is the equivalent of Harvard neurosurgery.
I shared our practice exam with some of my allopathic resident friends and even they think it is a joke. 4 different exams to specialize in a foot? The CBPS part is a literal joke. I almost shared it with my orthopedic attendings but then I didn’t want them to laugh at me and lose all respect they had of me.
If you actually think the ABFAS is such a good exam and that is the exam that determines real doctor from quack doctors, then you need to look at other surgical boards. Even their case submission is better than ABFAS.
Step outside the podiatry bubble and quit acting like ABFAS is the equivalent of Harvard neurosurgery.
Every year it’s the same story from third year residents. Images not working, nit picky low yield questions, not a true representation of knowledge rather everyone saying you have to “learn how to take the exam”. That shouldn’t be what a board exam is about. I’ve heard this ever since I was a student. I don’t understand how it keeps going on year to year like this.
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If ABFAS mimicked any other surgical board (ie make it identical to ortho) then this really wouldn’t be an issue. Unfortunately, It is not. It is far more onerous than the surgical board for real physicians who do foot and ankle surgery. Knowing the people who were in charge of ABFAS when many of the more stringent and unnecessary requirements (diversity, case logging confirmation process, and additional documentation from sources other than the surgeon of record, etc) were put into place, you’d have a hard time convincing me that there wasn’t a “gatekeeping” aspect to their decision making process.
A refresher for those who are new. Ortho has a didactic exam that they take upon completing residency. They then log cases for a 6 month period. They submit those cases and only 12 are selected for an oral exam/review/defense. Basically the only requirement is that they stay at their first job for 17 months (they log from something like April to October beginning the spring after starting their first job). No CBPS, no diversity requirement, no circulator notes, no logging forever until certified. The fact that ABFAS refuses to follow the same format tells you all you need to know about their organization and motives.
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Retrograde_Nail
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ABFAS can't act like other specialty boards because the quality of the podiatrist graduating from residency is terrible to borderline competent.
You keep making these arguments about ABFAS like podiatry is on par with MD/DO. It's not.
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I can see both sides.
Podiatry would have a 50% or higher fail rate on a tough part 1 (didactic) in the way ortho, gen surg, int med, etc have. The podiatrist students/residents are just not comparable overall. The MD programs also pretty standardized and have much better board prep academics in residency on avg. It'd be a disaster to have all DPMs take a hard and minimally curved exam.
The AAOS pt2 (or other MD surgical specialties) process is better with less logging after residency, though. The problem there is some DPMs do little/no surgery for awhile out of training. Ortho (or OB, gen, ent, plastics, etc) can easily get cases on-call and instant backlog from partners... most DPMs are associates trying to sell people their 5th toe needs a plasty for months or possibly getting a toe amp at 2am on a weekend. Podiatry is very saturated to try that grab-from-first-six-months-of-surgery play.
...the new 'one board' for podiatry probably won't happen. It absolutely won't happen soon.
If it ever does, there will just be a basic 'general' part and then some harder sub-board with surgical exam and case review or whatever.
There will also be an alternate board for the DPMs who fail whatever main board we have.
So, basically... likely no meaningful changes at all. If there are minor changes (basically name only), you will see same end results: tougher board (ABFAS-type with 'one board name') and cake walk board (ABPM, with new name) and at least one alternate board (perhaps APMA recognized, perhaps not). So much "changes," so much stays the same.
Hopefully, in the process, they will at least filter out the ABPM goofballs BOD who were appointed after ABPM defunct infighting and weren't even elected... simply put into position by 'prez' that the real BOD folks tried to impeach last year.
...and what nobody seems to have hit on here is that ABPM has to stop with surgery CAQ to get this 'one board' revisited a year from now. What a "win" for them
^^^This is even the biased spin from ABPM on it ("advancing the profession", ""two recognized certifying boards combining")... the real situation is not exactly that. Read the APMA report. This is highly likely to end up a nothingburger... or the same basic end result above (hopefully with some people out of the picture). APMA, for all its faults, is not stupid, and they know lowering the exams and teaching bar is not good for the profession overall... and moreso, a new alternate board for the DPMs who fail the main one would simply pop up no matter what. While they claim "all get 3 year surgical training" to attract students, they are not naive to tremendous diversity in DPM training and residency quality.
The smartest thing to truly do here is to recognize this as the banter and attention grab of a wannabe podo-politician, see possible (unlikely) distant future changes, and simply go about doing whatever you were already doing for boards, jobs, insurances, etc. That means try ABFAS process sequentially to get the most options, study harder if you fail ABFAS, pass ABPM if you fail ABFAS repeatedly or want both, look to apply to jobs and hospitals as usual, cold call and network for jobs as usual, etc.
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This is a load of crap. CBPS does nothing more to separate the well trained from the poorly trained than a didactic exam and in person case review (with half the number of cases and 3x less documents to submit) would. Logging in perpetuity doesn’t separate well trained from poorly trained grads. 24 case submissions with consulting physicians notes and circulator notes doesn’t separate these people. It’s just unnecessary bull****
ABFAS mimicking ortho doesn’t make poorly trained people all of a sudden pass. And if they dont pass the didactic exam and an in person case review of 12 submissions, then they dont get certified.
What's better for the profession are jobs that don't pay **** because there are 600 new grads waiting to cut nails in every corner of this country. Until entry level jobs pay more, anyone smart enough to pass abfas is smart enough to do a Google search and not do podiatry. It's not 2005 or even 2015. The game has changed alot.
The only people who care about boards are people in podiatry. Pick any board. Meet the requirements of hospital and insurance and move on with your life. This single board thing is a net positive by removing complexity from something that does not help the profession. If it's not putting $$$ in the bank then who really cares. Even MD know it's an elitist scam.
The only people who care about boards are people in podiatry. Pick any board. Meet the requirements of hospital and insurance and move on with your life. This single board thing is a net positive by removing complexity from something that does not help the profession. If it's not putting $$$ in the bank then who really cares. Even MD know it's an elitist scam.
Bored Snorlax
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Strong argument from both sides. I just hope we don’t end up with 3 boards from this. Podiatry never ceases to amaze me.
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I'm gonna start a fellowship board that only fellowship-trained* DPMs can apply for. Now the public will really know who is the best trained out there now that ABFAS is not a 'gold standard.' Members will become a Fellow of the Fellowship Trained Foot and Ankle Podiatric Surgeons: FTFAPS
*grandfathered Bako Fellowship Training allowed at first
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Have seen the Bako training course listed as a "Dermatology Fellowship" on some podiatrist websites. Didn't believe you guys until I was job searching.
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The one Vlahovic did is the only legit derm fellowship to my knowledge.
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There has been some intense debate about the internal medicine board in recent years. The passing rates are starting to drop for some programs, ranging from 70-90% overall. Some of it could be related to underpowered programs taking in more IMGs (particularly NYC), while some argued it's the infamous ABIM at it again to collect more money. I believe there is a blog dedicated to this. Lots of residents talk about it on Reddit.
So it's not an unique problem to podiatry. Of course we just have the most ridiculous version of it.
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She definitely is enthusiastic discussing derm. Almost to a meme worthy extent.
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That was a great one. It’s unfortunate that fellowship shut down a while ago.
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Dang didn’t realize that.
Three fundamental problem is a board can gate keep a whole profession and ability to hold a job. 7 years of training and you still need to prove yourself to an arbitrary group of people in order to just hold a job. Not being board certified holds IM back from all major insurances and health groups who now are employers of over 50% of docs. Instead of doctors fighting back they bend over for the chance to stand out and let these companies abuse them financially.
Retrograde_Nail
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Making a career out of just mastering the skin of the foot, ankle, leg will never make sense to me.
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what about just the toenails? 🦞
RollingstonePod
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Fwiw, I have as ordinary and boring of a practice as one can have. Nothing fancy.
I don't see a ton of patients per day or do aggressive/experimental stuff.
That said, note the date of post op at right...
Bone tumors do happen. They are not rare. You will see unicams and endochondromas every month on XRs.
You will see those bone remodel dz sometimes also.
Most are very easy and benign and can be monitored.
Others need treatment, some need surgery, some need refer.
...the point of boards is just to know which are which (basic vs aggressive/malig) and the principles (imaging, biopsy, tx, etc).
^^
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