Official 2013-2014 Nephrology fellowship application cycle

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juggernaut16 said:
What program did you resign ? Are they hiring new fellow ?

Isn't that NRMP violation ? I believe you can't resign in first 90 days else you receive lifetime ban on applying for fellowship in future
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45 days. And it's not a lifetime ban. It's at the discretion of NRMP and is usually nothing. Don't be a drama llama.
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I recently resigned from nephrology fellowship after 2 month of joining , nephrology is waste of time .......
I do admire your courage and honesty, I might disagree with you that you can learn nephrology in 2 months but what you say regarding the job market is completely true and residents know that already.
It comes to no surprise that this is maybe the only thread were no one gets rejections and just a ton of IVs. Reason? If you analyze the trends from NRMP you will find this year will be with less applicants than positions available.
I think programs are trying to interview as much as they can trying no to go unfilled in the match.
Go for nephrology if you love it and do not mind ending up doing something else.
 
I think job market will improve after 3-4 years. I would hate to be unemployed after graduating from felllowship with 200 K $ student loan
 
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LOL
I heard the same words from my program director 4 years ago when I was interviewing.
Hope and change.
Good luck
 
If you love nephrology and willing to compromise for it go for it but , if you are doing the fellowship to increase your income or increase your job chances then it will be a waste of time , just. With a simple look at practice link you will find there is 45 nephrology jobs vs 1400 hospitalist and internal medicine jobs , salary wise nephrology is 100K below what many hospitalist make , no body like to do fellowship unless it increase income or improve life style which is not the case in nephrology , most patients in nephrology either on dialysis or waiting to do dialysis , nephrology fellowship in some places is tougher than cardiology as most of the nephrology patients are very suck and in ICU , when you are on call you will need to jump in to do urgent dialysis many times at the middle of the night .
 
Sadly true
I barely make 160K here working every single day + every other weekend; thank God I am not in meds school debt.
My hospitalist colleagues work 2 wk on and 2 wk off and are making >250 with extra shifts etc. My issue is I can not deal with hosp medicine work and I am pretty happy with my group. I was lucky could find a job. Know many as hospitalist and primary care docs.
Go for renal if you really love it but do not expect a great income or a good lifestyle.
 
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Wow . That's insane 100 k less than hospitalist plus you work every other weekend. Is finding a job issue only for visa requiring candidates ?

@docdoc123456 : what fellowship are you applying now ?
 
It does not do anything with visa, it is the bad market that affect everybody even senior nephrologist , having a green card or being a citizen will not get you bigger income.
Regarding what other fellowship else to apply it depend who you are and what you like , I think nephrology now sink in the bottom with geriatrics , any thing else will have more job market , on the top is GI and Card.
 
True,
I am a green card holder, work in a rural area on the east coast and I am working with highly rated practice.
Reason I am doing this is because I do not see myself doing anything else as a physician and the fact that I do not have student debt makes my life easier.
I am putting aroun 60 hs week, cover 2 hospitals, 2 offices and 5 dialysis units.
Immigration status has nothing to do with it, in fact if you need a visa will be even tougher , in my program this year we had 3 graduates:
One took a part time job at the University with 200K in debt. (US citizen AMG)
Another went to primary care (J1) in a remote area in Wisconsin
The last one is doing transplant fellowship on west coast (Permanent Resident).
This is a good time to be a nephrology applicant as you can certainly go to a top program even if you are not outstanding; it is bad after you finish as jobs are few out there and you will face a lot of competition for them.
You can do this fellowship but do your homework before you commit to this.
 
Nephappl
I see you have a lot if experience , do you think ID now could be better option than nephrology?regarding job market issue!
 
I am thinking in ID after I left nephrology, do you think ID will be a better option than nephrology now?
 
It was recently discussed in the ID thread
 
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juggernaut16 said:
From discussion here it looks like one should go into nephrology fellowship with understanding that they will most probably end up working as hospitalists
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A- for reading comprehension.

Hospitalist OR PCP

I can't believe that people still approach nephrology with the idea that they're going to have a chill job and make bank running a dialysis center.
 
It is not a matter of a making bank running a dilaysis center, it is a matter no body like to study extra 2 years and go to fellowship to get less than what he can get before going to fellowship and even with harder life style unless you really really fall in love with nephrology which I don't think many people do love nephrology and dialysis business , this is what we are trying to say here if you love it take it regardless but if you don't live it and try to make career advancement here is problem.
 
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Everyone should just do what they love. If it's internal medicine, surgery, building houses, creating art, working in advertising... whatever it is, DO IT. That is the only way you will be happy. Money does not bring happiness and nephrology will not solve your financial problems (medicine won't in general!). If you want to be rich, be a business man.. if you want to have fun, help people have better lives, learn and be a part of the greater good, do medicine. If you expect to become rich you will be disappointed.

Just my two cents :D

Congratulations to all who are interviewing, and I am excited to begin a fellowship next summer.
 
juggernaut16 said:
I saw someone(Nephron2014) in forum got interview from Columbia/Cornell

How about John Hopkins? Did they send invitations?
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Columbia already finished interviews. They called only 20 applicants and 3 interview dates. Cornell interviews still going on. They invited 25 applicants and 6 interview dates.
 
Do we need 10 interviews to match. I will be going to match with 5 programs. I had to cancel some interviews for personal reasons.
 
Guess it depends on your cv and where you're interviewing at? I've a mix of competitive and not so competitive university programs. So I need to interview to at least 10
 
can some one help me rank these programs

1. USC
2. UCLA
3. UC davis
4. Baylor
5. UT SW
6. OHSU
7. Loma Linda
8. U of AZ

Thanks for your help in advance
 
juggernaut16 said:
can some one help me rank these programs

1. USC
2. UCLA
3. UC davis
4. Baylor
5. UT SW
6. OHSU
7. Loma Linda
8. U of AZ

Thanks for your help in advance
Click to expand...

Yes, his name is juggernaut16. Juggernaut16 has actually interviewed at all these programs and knows them by visiting them.

Not trying to be funny, but these "help me rank" posts are a bit ridiculous......didn't YOU interview and ask questions and come away with a feeling for each program.....not to mention programs are geographically in different areas of the world if that makes a difference. No one knows what is important to YOU as much as you do. So sit down and decide what is important to you and list the pros and cons of each program and come up with a list on your own.
 
Jackson memorial and Henry ford program are worsest they are very sad programs , the fellows work like slaves, many fellows over the year left the programs, last year henry ford got only 2 in the match out of 5 quota , ended by interviewing every body post match and offering the positions to anybody seemed interested., both Jackson memorial and henry ford tend to have 1-2 fellows dropping each year .
 
I have had several PMs asking about the current job market. I know this will generate unpleasant reactions but I know truth is not welcomed specially when is not what we like to hear.
I worked with a huge practice and all we are looking to hire is maybe one more person, we are supplying our needs trying to hire more NPs for the HD units (in high demand by the way).
For data on hiring is hard to track however this link is from DaVita (we do not work with them) which is the second largest dialysis providers by size after Fresenius, data are from 2012 and they are one year behind and will not release new data until next year.

http://www.davita.com/UploadedFiles...esources/Job Market One Sheet 07-10.pdf?n=182

Regarding salaries:

http://www.davita.com/UploadedFiles...012 Salary Survey Resullts 1.14.12.pdf?n=6976

Nephrology prorams are well behind in making the decision to cut down training positions,
The fellowship is very demanding and it is unfair to the applicants doing that.
Last year more than 450 fellows did graduate however I do not know how many found good jobs (at least none in my program) . I will try to run a pole with graduating fellows next year.
However if Davita only has 20 open positions you can figure out how prospects are.
 
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It is so sad,
I did an observership a few years ago in Miami and it was really good
Do not know now but used to be very hard to get into that fellowship and the clinical experience was awesome. That was my first choice for fellowship but did not even get an interview.
 
NephApp,
Thank you for the career information you provided, I am confident that every word you mentioned regarding career is true , I think even that those salary mentioned at Davita web site the slightly higher than the actual fact, I resigned from nephrology fellowship one month ago , most of the fellows graduated from the program I resigned from either joined a hospitalist jobs or hardly found a nephrology jobs in remote area for 170K, in big cities most offers were between 120-150 if any , I resigned because I did not like nephrology specially dialysis and because of the career prospect I found out it will be a waste of time continue doing it , as you said and that was very honest from you , nephrology fellowship are very demanding and that is why they still need many fellows to carry the work load although there are no enough jobs for each fellows,nephrology fellowship on some hospital is even tougher than cardiology but without the rewarding career , I think every body who is getting interviews for nephrology fellowship this year should have a little time out to think where he or she going to and if he or she ready to compromise for it.
 
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@ docdoc123456


I agree with you
Few jobs in far flung areas with starting salary 150-160 K (shifts M- F with alternate weekend coverage)
compare that with hospitalists job - 7 on/7 off, 220 K, big cities

Only people who are applying to nephrology this year are either really really interested in kidneys or they have a established business of their physician parents or they are planning on leaving country after their fellowship and not worried about job market. I hear nephrology is still in demand in middle east and south east asia
 
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Has anyone interviewed at UCLA yet? How is the program, given it has 2 fellows per year?
 
13 interviews total.

Interviews completed so far:

University of Mississippi
Medical College of Wisconsin
Georgetown
VCU
University of Tennessee
University of Louisville
UAMS
Allegheny General
SUNY Upstate:

Interviews remaining:

Tulane
Ochsner Clinic
MUSC
LSU-HSC
 
Docdoc123456 said:
Jackson memorial and Henry ford program are worsest they are very sad programs , the fellows work like slaves, many fellows over the year left the programs, last year henry ford got only 2 in the match out of 5 quota , ended by interviewing every body post match and offering the positions to anybody seemed interested., both Jackson memorial and henry ford tend to have 1-2 fellows dropping each year .
Click to expand...

Good to know. I got rejected from Henry Ford. Guess I dodged a bullet.
 
Henry ford program are the worsest in the country as it is bad program located in a bad hospital located in a bankrupted unsafe very dangerous city , the fellow there work like a slaves and being used to the maximum , you expect to see 25-30 pt on weekdays and up to 40 on week ends , staff are abusive , and fellows are treated very bad ,every year there are 1-2 fellows run away , 3 years ago 5 fellows left the program , PD are always on the side of attending against fellows, most of henry ford internal medicine resident avoid applying to the nephrology fellowship because they know it very we'll., last year henry ford went to the match with quota of five they got only 2 , the interviewed applicants to fill the 3 position , they had a great difficulty to fill there position as most of the applicant who offered post match did not take the position and kept calling every body till the offered the last position the the last one on the lust that happened in May one month before fellowship starts, some of those fellow either did not start or resigned after short time , the same happens each year , I heard the the program was on proposition by ACGME at some time .
 
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stop spreading rumors about Henry ford. I interviewed there this year and found opposite of what you have been mentioning. It is a very strong clinical program with excellent faculty. PD was very friendly and easy to work with. Contrary to what you have mentioned, most of their residents stay back for fellowship which wouldn't be a case if it was a malignant fellowship.
 
Hi Gutonc,

I need your advise about options available after nephrology fellowship. What is your opinion on 1year CC fellowship after nephrology? What is your advise on 3 yr vs 2 yr programs for nephrology - do you think I should be using that extra year to do CC fellowship instead of research since nephrology job market is dismal. Your advise is appreciated as always.

Thank you
 
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@ph74
I am not spreading lies about any program and I will not get any benefit of doing that , if you don't want to believe what I said it is your business , but you cannot impose and deceive every body on this forum, you built your experience about that program from an interview !! That is funny and ridiculous , no program will expose their defects to applicants during interview and they will do their best to hide all the negative things , I spent in that hospital many years I know very well past and current fellows and I am confident that non of the fellow were former resident , some fellows were hospitalist in the hospital but non of them were residents, I think somebody thinking like you deserve to match in that program to get the experience first hand , by that time you remember what I am telling here ,
Just for every body to know, this year number of applicants will be less than number of spots , so every body will match and a lot of post match position will be there too , don't be happy to hear that , this is a bad sign .i hope for every body good luck this match.

Regarding what is best action to do after nephrology fellowship, it is either you apply for another fellowship or just work as a hospitalist .
 
I am describing program based upon my interview day experience and what I was told by fellow who gave us tour

I am mentally prepared that I might end up working as hospitalist or doing CC fellowship after nephrology. As a matter of fact One program had promised me on IV day that they would get me CC spot in their own program which is a huge plus. In fact they have combined nephrology -CC fellowship
 
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pH74 said:
I am mentally prepared that I might end up working as hospitalist or doing CC fellowship after nephrology.
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Why are you doing a nephrology fellowship if you are "mentally prepared" to be a hospitalist or CC fellowship?

Why are you even contemplating a 3 year nephrology fellowship UNLESS and only unless you want to do academics?

If you want to work in the community, why in world do a CC fellowship after nephrology? Sure there are SOME nephrologists who bill themselves as "critical care nephrologists", but they are found only again in academics and they become gurus in CVVH. If your plans are to work in the community, then why do a CC fellowship? Community nephrologists do nephrology and don't dabble in CC. There are pulm/CC docs who are managing those patients.
 
The PD who promised you with CC fellowship position Dr MF , he does that with every applicant as a matter of marketing his program ,the program has the worsest reputation on Det metro area , they have a combined nephrology CC fellowship, they take only one fellow very year combined and they give it only to internal applicants ,and the others are just regular nephrology , most of the graduate of the combined Nephrology CC ended up by working as nephrologist full time with some moonlighting as intensivist.

Just to give you some insight of that program, they tell each candidate they they will guarantee a critical care year after you finish the nephrology and that is not true as last year graduate only one fellow got extra year of critical care
Secondly , combining critical care with nephrology will not help at all, as you cannot practice both together unless you work on a big academic center and you will work as a critical care nephrologist , which will mean more work with same money , but if you go to community , you cannot practice combined nephrology and critical care , only one of them either nephrology or critical care, it is not Like pulmonary critical care , most of the employer who hire intensivist would rather prefer hiring pulmonary critical care fellowship graduate or 2 year critical care fellowship graduate, very few will be willing to her intensivist with nephrology back ground .so it will be waste of time combining .
That hospital you did interview with and told you they can offer you CC position after nephrology , they have one attending who is nephrology/ CC and he is getting paid like any other nephrologist in the group (around 160), that PD do that with each applicant because his program does not fill each match and he has the highest escape rate from his program as many fellow leave the program after they star

Just FYI, Few hospitals who have combined nephrology CC positions are thinking about closing the combined nephrology cc fellowship position because it is non sense and most of the graduates will end up working as regular nephrologist,
 
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Sad to hear that about Henry Ford.
I met Dr MF a few years ago interviewing, he is a nice guy.
It used to be one of the top programs in the country; the training is intensive, it is very busy but on those days the reward was a good nephrology job after fellowship with a reputation of being trained in one of the best programs in the country.
Now you have the same or worse intensive training but without a job guaranteed no matter where you trained.
At some point I though about CCM fellowship with nephrology but makes absolute non sense unless:
-You have no student loans
-You do not care spending one more year as fellow
-You have no kids and family to take care of
-Money is not an issue for you for a, b or c reason.
It is amazing that after residency and knowing how it works people still believe in program directors. They always put their program (and their jobs by the way) above everything else. Applicants / fellows interests come third or fourth.
 
@ nephappl

You are right , it is very very busy program , fellows during consult month and transplant services work like slaves , the hospital has 150 ICU bed that make the nephrology consult service a hell , fellow when they round on week end they see sometimes 40 Pts , many of them are very critically I'll ,I think they should be honest by telling the candidates that during the interview , rather than giving the candidates unrealistic hopes.

As you said , with the poor market may be for the next 5-7 years may be longer , I would rather be in an easy program even less reputable ,it will be unwise to be in in a killing program working as a slave for 2 years then after that work as a hospitalist or just going to start another fellowship, it is a wast of your life.
 
To senior members of the forum .

can some one share some details about UAB, Birmingham program.

Thank you
 
UAB (based upon IV day)

Strengths
Well balanced clinical and research exposure
Big names
Faculty very active in ASN

Weakness
City - nothing much to do, difficult for spouse to find any decent job. Nothing else I can think of

Most graduates go into private practice. Few do hospitalist because of reasons mentioned several times in this thread
 
Loud bark and doc123456

I agree - you cant practice both CC and nephro. Only reason I want to do CC is to have a job in case I don't find any nephrology job. I have done hospitalist for 2 years now and I am just done. Hospitalist job is clerk + manager + social worker + counselor but earning big bucks !
 
@ ph74

I had the same feeling when I was doing hospitalist I was very unhappy about the coordinator of care role and social things and that what pushed me to go for nephrology fellowship hoping to be specialized physician have my own area of speciality, after I went to nephrology fellowship I discovered that hospitalist job although it's challenges is a lot nicer , easier , productive and lucurative , with huge demand for hospitalist every where , while nephrology has a lot of social issues specially dialysis pts , dialysis pt are very dependent on their physician , a lot of social problem with them , they keep missing dialysis and come to be dialysis in the middle of the night , no hope of cure , transplant always fail after few years and end up on dialysis again , when you are fellow and as attending , they will call you in the middle of the night to dialysis pt or to write peritoneal orders , or to go at 4:00 am to evaluate a transplant pts ,working every day from 6 am to 6 pm M-F with every other week end for a very low salary almost like a PA, after knowing all of that , I discovered that hospitalist is not the worst under the sun.
The problem in nephrology you will work as hard as cardiologist and earn as low as a PA, I am believing that ID , endocrine , rheumatology , palliative care., and geriatrics , all of them although you don't earn too much. Compared to internal medicine but you enjoy good life style.
If you decided to take your fellowship at HF hospital , my advice to you live in the building opposite to the hospital as you will work from 6 am to 7 pm , when you are on call the will call you3-4 time at night to go to ICU to put dialysis catheter and initiate dialysis or to evaluate a pt for transplant , so living in the building opposite to the hospital will be a lot easier to avoid driving in the middle of the night in snowy months , the problem will be if you have family and kids who goes to school , as that area is ranked no 1 regarding crimes in US.
 
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pH74 said:
Loud bark and doc123456

I agree - you cant practice both CC and nephro. Only reason I want to do CC is to have a job in case I don't find any nephrology job. I have done hospitalist for 2 years now and I am just done. Hospitalist job is clerk + manager + social worker + counselor but earning big bucks !
Click to expand...

Unfortunately a lot of hopsitalists think that they have to deal with so much stuff on a daily basis like social issues and paper work and dispositions and calling consults that a nephrology life would be just heaven compared to being a hospitalist. My advice there is.......beware what you are wishing for.

There are NO 7 on 7 off nephrology jobs. Not even close. You will be lucky to have 6 days off a month. The beauty of being a hospitalist is that once you are home, the pager is OFF. You will not find any nephrology job where you don't have to do home call. Nephrologists try to downplay their call.....but a large group may still get called multiple times during a night. Even if you don't have to go in to the hospital, who wants that 2am page waking you up from a deep sleep because an HD patient went to the hospital for chest pain and the ER doc wants to page you because his K is 5.8 (yes ER docs will page you about this). Pages like this happen on a nightly basis for the nephrologist. Don't forget the times you do have to come in at 2am for that emergent dialysis patient (yes it does happen). Now if you try to justify it by saying my buddies the interventional cardiologist and general surgeon also have to come in too........well they are getting well compensated for their inconvenience $$$$$$$ while you are making about what your other buddy the hospitalist is making. And of course the hospitalist at 2am is sleeping soundly in their bed at this time.

Most hospitalist jobs are some kind of shift work, or at least you go home after seeing all of your patients. With nephrology it is clinic, hospital, dialysis center......and maybe back to hospital again. It can make for a long drawn out day that seems like it never ends.

Reasons to go into nephrology:
You ABSOLUTELY love the anatomy and physiology of the kidneys and find that pathology of kidney disorders and electrolyte disorders intriguing and fascinating

Reasons not to go into nephrology:
1. Lifestyle - see above, only IM specialties with comparably bad lifestyles are interventional cardiology and possibly Pulm/CC (interventional cardiology pays much, much more and pulm/CC also pays more somewhat justifying worse lifestyle.....no such justification with nephrology)

2. Money - as above, most hospitalists are making same or more than nephrologists with much better lifestyle, other IM specialties with comparable income (rheum, endocrine, etc) have much better lifestyle

3. "I hate my job as a hospitalist because (fill in the blank.....social issues, dispositions, paper work, calling consults, dealing with drug seekers, chronic illnesses that never get better.....etc)" - those are real issues, no doubt and not saying they are not reasons to not have super job satisfaction....however they shouldn't be reasons to become a nephrologist. If you think the grass will be greener on the other side...you may be in for a rude awakening. Writing dialysis orders over and over can become mundane after time too and not super intellectually challenging either. Don't think dialysis patients don't have their own social issues that you won't have to deal with either. Nephrology has it's own patient issues.


I am not saying to not do nephrology. I am saying you should do it for the right reasons. Nephrologists are certainly needed.....but you shouldn't be doing it with the expectation that somehow you will escape the dismal world of being a hospitalist and find some bright, sunny pasture of lifetime happiness as a nephrologist. It won't happen.
 
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@LoudBark

Your post is great summarized all the ideas ,I think every body applying to nephrology should read. Your post,
I totally agree with you , if you really really really love nephrology do it , not because you just don't like hospitalist, because hospitalist is a lot easier if compared to nephrology ,
Thinking about fellowship in medicine ideally should choose between either a very tough rewarding one like Cardiology and GI or easy not much financially rewarding like infectious diseases , endocrine or rheumatology , the problem nephrology does not fit any of the this two , as nephrology is very tough and least rewarding in medicine.
 
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