NYT Today: "Nurses are Not Doctors"

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wyningkonka said:
Anyway, you are just in Pre-med. No wonder. When you graduate, then we can talk. But for now, Goodbye.
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:lol:
I haven't been "in pre-med" for a while now. How's the progress going in your PhD in Remedial Studies from Generic Prestigious University?
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wyningkonka said:
Going back to my research work. see ya later. ANUOFIA MMUO. ISHI OKPUKPU, EWU. lol
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Thank you for your kind words. I'll be sure to remember them the next time I find a need to greet someone in Igbo, such as yourself. Enjoy your "research."
 
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Anastomoses said:
I have nothing against your basic position. I have seen many people post here about how awful it is that doctors are betraying the profession. So, this is a common attitude.

And I admit that this NP topic gets SDNers hot and bothered fast.

I would like you to admit that it was unreasonable to type "traitor" in all caps to shame someone who has merely been expressing her sincere dismay at nurses treating patients independently and has given corroborating evidence of that position. That's being a traitor? It's a profession that is trying to be no longer what she believes in. In fact, I'd argue that the NP group aren't really nurses but attempting to be pseudodoctors. That's not her profession at all, is it?
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You know, there's another argument within some NP circles. Some believe that there is no need for any bedside experience because they aren't going to NP school to be bedside nurses; what they're doing isn't really nursing. So, now you have some people (mostly the FNPs) who will have no patient experience at all. I asked whom they expected to help them when they become newly-minted FNPs, and I was told that the first few years of working would essentially be like a "residency," and that doctors and nurses would help them.

Does anyone else find this ridiculous and frightening?
 
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MedWonk said:
Thank you for your kind words. I'll be sure to remember them the next time I find a need to greet someone in Igbo, such as yourself. Enjoy your "research."
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Oh, thank goodness...she was speaking a foreign language. I was afraid this discussion was so stressful she'd stroked out.
 
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fab4fan said:
You know, there's another argument within some NP circles. Some believe that there is no need for any bedside experience because they aren't going to NP school to be bedside nurses; what they're doing isn't really nursing. So, now you have some people (mostly the FNPs) who will have no patient experience at all. I asked whom they expected to help them when they become newly-minted FNPs, and I was told that the first few years of working would essentially be like a "residency," and that doctors and nurses would help them.

Does anyone else find this ridiculous and frightening?
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Um yes.

I've decided to opt out of this residency thing. I'm just going to learn on the job. Supervision & training are overrated
 
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I'm working on a little timeline project for our edification and came across this jewel in an article.


"Julie Willardson, 36, who received her nurse practitioner doctorate degree in May, came into the field because she was frustrated that, as a home care nurse, she'd have to wait several days -- sometimes even a week -- to get a doctor's order to request laboratory work or other relatively simple procedures.

Having practiced in multiple nursing specialties and attained this advanced education, Willardson doesn't regret having chosen nursing rather than medical school.

"I've had patients tell me things they've never told anyone in their life. It's really been an honor," Willardson said. "I'm sure doctors love being a doctor, too, but I don't know if they get the full human side of medicine."
 
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I think what's killing me most when I read this stuff is the double standard, in that the inverse of this situation is completley unacceptable.
 
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wyningkonka said:
Since you are old enough, then you should move pass this level. You should know better. Be an elder statesman to your profession. like I said, I have noticed your post especially when it comes to NP independence. I even thought you were a young person, but now I know better. I have been visiting this site for sometime, but don't usually post, just decided to finally register. Don't give out information about your profession knowing how the medical profession feel about them. I am in neither profession, but my loved ones are. Don't bring down your profession no matter what. You can disagree, but don't betray them. I think that is where you are headed. Just saying.
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This is incredibly simple-minded. Please tell me you haven't given more than 5 minutes thought to this precedent.
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
I'm working on a little timeline project for our edification and came across this jewel in an article.


"Julie Willardson, 36, who received her nurse practitioner doctorate degree in May, came into the field because she was frustrated that, as a home care nurse, she'd have to wait several days -- sometimes even a week -- to get a doctor's order to request laboratory work or other relatively simple procedures.

Having practiced in multiple nursing specialties and attained this advanced education, Willardson doesn't regret having chosen nursing rather than medical school.

"I've had patients tell me things they've never told anyone in their life. It's really been an honor," Willardson said. "I'm sure doctors love being a doctor, too, but I don't know if they get the full human side of medicine."
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I wonder if someone who could hold such an insulting opinion about an entire profession could really be a compassionate healthcare provider.
 
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I worked per diem for the VNA on the weekends for five years. Never not once did a physician not answer a page within minutes. I always had their total support and clear direction to address the fever, dyspnea, rales high glucose, pain management etc. in the home. . We did our best to help these older people be safe at home. It was not her decision to order labwork and I am disgusted that she would say such derogatory things about admitting physicians.
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
I'm working on a little timeline project for our edification and came across this jewel in an article.


"Julie Willardson, 36, who received her nurse practitioner doctorate degree in May, came into the field because she was frustrated that, as a home care nurse, she'd have to wait several days -- sometimes even a week -- to get a doctor's order to request laboratory work or other relatively simple procedures.

Having practiced in multiple nursing specialties and attained this advanced education, Willardson doesn't regret having chosen nursing rather than medical school.

"I've had patients tell me things they've never told anyone in their life. It's really been an honor," Willardson said. "I'm sure doctors love being a doctor, too, but I don't know if they get the full human side of medicine."
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What does that even mean...?
 
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fab4fan said:
You know, there's another argument within some NP circles. Some believe that there is no need for any bedside experience because they aren't going to NP school to be bedside nurses; what they're doing isn't really nursing. So, now you have some people (mostly the FNPs) who will have no patient experience at all. I asked whom they expected to help them when they become newly-minted FNPs, and I was told that the first few years of working would essentially be like a "residency," and that doctors and nurses would help them.

Does anyone else find this ridiculous and frightening?
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Yes. Some don't know the difference between atrial fib and sinus rhythm.
 
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icuRNmaggie said:
I worked per diem for the VNA on the weekends for five years. Never not once did a physician not answer a page within minutes. I always had their total support and clear direction to address the fever, dyspnea, rales high glucose, pain management etc. in the home. It was not her decision to order lab work or adjust a person's medications either. We did our best to help these older people be safe at home. I am disgusted that she would say such derogatory things about the physicians.
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That's what I was thinking. I worked several years in home care/hospice, and if a patient needed something, the patient got it. It was the rare physician who didn't answer pages in a timely manner.
 
Wow, it looks like I missed something truly special. I haven't seen a troll this bad in weeks- one that deleted their own posts afterward no less, lol.
 
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Although the troll has deleted all of his/her posts, I thank you folks for quoting little snippets for posterity so we can point as this thread 5 years from now and still laugh at the troll who claimed fab4fan was a TRAITOR
 
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Well thats no fun......I logged on expecting a few of the trolls colleagues from the AANP join in the argument...I am disappoint..
 
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All in all, this has been a bang-up week for me. I was outed as a TRAITOR, and I really pissed off a "Patient" on KevinMD.

So many people to offend, so little time.
 
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fab4fan said:
All in all, this has been a bang-up week for me. I was outed as a TRAITOR, and I really pissed off a "Patient" on KevinMD.

So many people to offend, so little time.
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Link, or it didn't happen.
 
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Brain Bucket said:
Yeah...so...I gave up after the second sentence. Who is Jordan Grumet, M.D., and why can't he tell the difference between bare and bear? I really can't be bothered to read any further.
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Bro. English is HARD.
 
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Well nurses has got the same capability like Doctors, in fact they nurtures the patients more then a Doctor & helps them to recover, I believe they deserve all the respect from society for being helping hand & works towards the well being of every human.
 
No, she's Theresa Brown. I'm "h" less. I have written for an oncology website, though not recently.
 
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adenocard said:
http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/nursing/dnpcert/rates.shtml

Here are the data from 2008-2012 showing this in case anyone was wondering if this was true.

Take a look at the American Association of Nurse Practitioners facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/AmericanAssociationofNPs

Nearly every article is about practicing autonomously and with equal pay and rights with less than half the training of a physician. Make no mistake, this isn't about increasing people's access to care, this is a money and power grab by one of the most powerful lobbying group in the country.
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Oh gosh...one of the comments says

"So stupid!!!! The good old boy network is so greedy that they won't even let APRN's care for the patients they refuse to care for!!! You think NP's have it bad, try being a CNS, it's even worse. A PA right out of school can write a prescription but i can't even though i have 2 degrees & 25 years of clinical experience. Ridiculous!!!"

cool you have 2 degrees. are either of those MD or DO? No? If you want to write prescriptions then maybe you should go to medical school
 
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I would like to suggest that if you surveyed the half a million nationally certified critical care nurses in the U.S., we would beg to differ with the ridiculous assertions made by the members of the AANP.
 
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icuRNmaggie said:
I would like to suggest that if you surveyed the half a million nationally certified critical care nurses in the U.S., we would beg to differ with the ridiculous assertions made by the members of the AANP.
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yeah, reading through their facebook page hurt my head.....
 
I wonder if this whole fiasco of everyone wanting to be called "doctor" could've been side-stepped had the medical degree in the US been an MBBS from the beginning, instead of MD. What the people arguing for APRNs to have that title seem to be missing is this:

Doctors are not called "doctor" because they have a doctorate. They're called "doctor" because that's the title of the medical profession.

If physicians didn't have a doctorate degree, there would be no basis for APRNs, PharmDs, PTs, OTs, AuDs, etc. to argue who gets to be called what, regardless of the degree that their professional society invented last year.
 
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http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/evolving-models-primary-care-harm-good.html

For example in a recent AAFP telephone news conference, LaDona Schmidt, MD was interviewed on the topic of the difference between nurse practitioners and physicians. Dr. Schmidt states, “I didn’t know what I didn’t know until I went through 7 more years of training,”since she was a nurse practitioner before she went back to become a physician. Dr. Schmidt also commented on how she was surprised how difficult medical school was given her previous training. She goes on and says that it wasn’t until she completed medical school and residency that she realized “how much I did not know about the underlying causes of disease processes.”
 
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DermViser said:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/06/evolving-models-primary-care-harm-good.html

For example in a recent AAFP telephone news conference, LaDona Schmidt, MD was interviewed on the topic of the difference between nurse practitioners and physicians. Dr. Schmidt states, “I didn’t know what I didn’t know until I went through 7 more years of training,”since she was a nurse practitioner before she went back to become a physician. Dr. Schmidt also commented on how she was surprised how difficult medical school was given her previous training. She goes on and says that it wasn’t until she completed medical school and residency that she realized “how much I did not know about the underlying causes of disease processes.”
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NP talking point rebuttal:
"Where are the studies to demonstrate that those extra years of school and training result in better outcomes?"
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
NP talking point rebuttal:
"Where are the studies to demonstrate that those extra years of school and training result in better outcomes?"
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And let's only measure outcomes in the next 6 months.
 
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WhippleWhileWeWork said:
NP talking point rebuttal:
"Where are the studies to demonstrate that those extra years of school and training result in better outcomes?"
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"where is the wasted tax payer money to get luke-warm results on what should be obvious?"
ftfy.

It's not as though people walking into a primary care center are dropping dead left and right, no matter who sees them. Hell, I could see patients at a primary care setting and the spike in mortality would be relatively low, despite the fact that I am essentially worthless right now.

Groups of patients:
group 1: No intervention needed, need maintenance (No changes, will water down other issues)
group 2: Sick, but nothing you can do about it. Once again, no changes in data, water down other results
group 3: sick, need intervention, but the intervention is easy (will make both groups look good)
group 4: sick, hard to spot, will be less well off but not greatly well off with intervention. Probably won't show up unless specifically looked for
group 5: sick, hard to spot, will die or experience serious harm without intervention. The only ones who will show up, and fairly rare. May go to emergency room, and so avoid harm.

Group five will take time to show up, and groups three and four are hard to spot unless specifically studied. It would probably be easier to id these people via simulation, and written tests. Finally, chart review in the states where they get free reign (after they have some time to accrue mortality).
 
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dadaddadaBATMAN said:
"where is the wasted tax payer money to get luke-warm results on what should be obvious?"
ftfy.

It's not as though people walking into a primary care center are dropping dead left and right, no matter who sees them. Hell, I could see patients at a primary care setting and the spike in mortality would be relatively low, despite the fact that I am essentially worthless right now.

Groups of patients:
group 1: No intervention needed, need maintenance (No changes, will water down other issues)
group 2: Sick, but nothing you can do about it. Once again, no changes in data, water down other results
group 3: sick, need intervention, but the intervention is easy (will make both groups look good)
group 4: sick, hard to spot, will be less well off but not greatly well off with intervention. Probably won't show up unless specifically looked for
group 5: sick, hard to spot, will die or experience serious harm without intervention. The only ones who will show up, and fairly rare. May go to emergency room, and so avoid harm.

Group five will take time to show up, and groups three and four are hard to spot unless specifically studied. It would probably be easier to id these people via simulation, and written tests. Finally, chart review in the states where they get free reign (after they have some time to accrue mortality).
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They use stupid endpoints like HgA1C numbers and BP numbers, instead of real endpoints like mortality or heart attack. I wonder why?
 
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DermViser said:
They use stupid endpoints like HgA1C numbers and BP numbers, instead of real endpoints like mortality or heart attack. I wonder why?
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I know you're not really asking, but my explanation would be to milk the most out of group numero three. With more time, they may even get a little better patient compliance.

Not to mention it's an easy stat for a politician to quote, or to distort. "NPs have proven as effective in the management of chronic conditions as......." seems like an easy distortion to use. If questioned, say HbA1C and the phrase "studies havre shown" until the audience tunes out and forgets.
 
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