NYT Today: "Nurses are Not Doctors"

[Hulk Smash]

If only it were possible to argue with an idiot

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[icuRNmaggie]

I was expecting an icu admission on BiPap and heard arguing in the hall. The NP was arguing with the RT and commanding him not to take off the bipap mask. It was full of vomit. I told her we'll take it from here. Thankfully no evidence of aspiration on XR

 

[VisionaryTics]

I was expecting an icu admission on BiPap and heard arguing in the hall. The NP was arguing with the RT and commanding him not to take off the bipap mask. It was full of vomit. I told her we'll take it from here. Thankfully no evidence of aspiration on XR

Vomit-filled alveoli prevent atelectasis and shunting.

 

[icuRNmaggie]

I guess that was her rationale.
Sorry for intruding on the discussion.
There are a lot of us who dont share the allnurses point of view.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I guess that was her rationale.
Sorry for intruding on the discussion.
There are a lot of us who dont share the allnurses point of view.

I hope so. I've gotten super jaded about the nursing profession over the last year or so. I figured We could all at least work as a team. But all of these conversations have pretty much sealed for me the fact that nurses think Dr.'s are greedy, stupid pricks. Better to find that out now rather than later when you try to work together right?

 

[Cytarabine]

Vomit-filled alveoli prevent atelectasis and shunting.

LOL, don't know why I found this so funny

 

[Psai]

.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

So I was browsing allnurses, looking for trouble as usual, and I came across this. Do you think there is any truth to it? (context, they're debating MD vs DNP)

Aug 21, '10 by netglow
It is truly a big pi**ing contest as a previous poster said. MDs are very prickly these days.

MDs see reimbursement going down, trouble paying off college loans, lack of respect from the public, admin getting into their undies. In the past, MDs were happy to give it away so to speak to nursing or anybody who'd do a lot of their work for them. It was fine with them and encouraged. After all who doesn't want to dump the not fun stuff on an NP or a PA so one could run off to do something fun on a sunny summer afternoon?

In the past being an MD was sort of a status symbol... RESPECT, nice wife/husband, car, house, retirement. All these things were automatic. Now not so. If they are honest, they'll tell ya that this stuff is what an MD must get in exchange for the long years or there is no payoff. Well, yeah. I understand.

But here's where they got in trouble. They got lazy and let some of the "insignificant people (us)" get some more edu/autonomy and guess what? Everybody found out that, wow, others can do a lot of what MDs do and do it pretty good. Hmmmm, corporate says. Maybe we need a few more of those that have a can-do attitude and not so much $ and ego-related needs, thus opening doors for NPs and PAs has been officially encouraged by the corporate powers that rule all. So now MDs are squirming, trying to come up with all sorts of crap to save something and get something, sort of (they really don't know). You teach the "underlings" how to read and write, and some of them surprise you and are wicked smart. So it's kinda sad to read some blogs or SDN (too funny actually) where in the now confused MD state, they can muster only a repetitive, "you don't know what you don't know", "I went to school and my teachers were harder than yours". I have to feel kinda sorry for the MDs that do this. I imagine them blindfolded and wandering around in the dark. They somehow, with every effort to discredit others seem to keep losing what respect they (used to?) have.

This just strengthens my resolve that when I sign a contract, my lawyer will explicitly write that I "will not train NPs". Let's see how they do with THEIR education, THEIR training, and THEIR liability.

 

[touchpause13]

This just strengthens my resolve that when I sign a contract, my lawyer will explicitly write that I "will not train NPs". Let's see how they do with THEIR education, THEIR training, and THEIR liability.

Agreed. Also i won't refer to them. screw that.

 

[fab4fan]

I hope so. I've gotten super jaded about the nursing profession over the last year or so. I figured We could all at least work as a team. But all of these conversations have pretty much sealed for me the fact that nurses think Dr.'s are greedy, stupid pricks. Better to find that out now rather than later when you try to work together right?

Not all of us. I've been here since 2002, and those that know my post history know that I want no part of the direction nursing has taken.

 

[Sephiroth]

Not all of us. I've been here since 2002, and those that know my post history know that I want no part of the direction nursing has taken.

iirc, you were an icu nurse, correct? just out of curiosity, if you would be ok with sharing, what was your education and work experience during the course of education? And how familiar are you with aprn (particularly np) practicum?

 

[icuRNmaggie]

I hope so. I've gotten super jaded about the nursing profession over the last year or so. I figured We could all at least work as a team. But all of these conversations have pretty much sealed for me the fact that nurses think Dr.'s are greedy, stupid pricks. Better to find that out now rather than later when you try to work together right?

Actually we think that the administrators are the greedy stupid ones not the docs.

 

[DermViser]

Actually we think that the administrators are the greedy stupid ones not the docs.

You don't have to think. They are. You can bet they want to find every way to lower salaries it doesn't matter whether it's a physician or nurse. You're an employee, to them. Period.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm not sure watching nursing "students" have trouble with finding the brachial pulse is the right anecdote for your point. I know I had trouble with finding it on a few patients when I started, despite being able to describe its location and its relations anatomically.

****, I still have trouble finding it from time to time and I stick needles in it regularly.

 

[fab4fan]

iirc, you were an icu nurse, correct? just out of curiosity, if you would be ok with sharing, what was your education and work experience during the course of education? And how familiar are you with aprn (particularly np) practicum?

No, I never worked in ICU. I've worked in and been certified in many specialties but found my niche in outpatient oncology. I went to a 3 year diploma program in a hospital based nursing school, and I have done college courses on my own after graduation.

The only knowledge I have re: APRNs is my own research from when I was considering that route myself. I just couldn't reconcile the minimal clinical hours and the coursework with what I was looking for. I also thought long and hard about the responsibility APRNs have with the clinical and coursework. I didn't like the assertions from some schools that APRNs were equal to physicians when it comes to providing patient care. Ultimately, I felt there wasn't going to be enough medical education in the APRN programs to make me feel safe ordering treatments. I didn't want to do "medicine by algorithm or cookbook."

NP students often claim that they already have experience because they spent years working as nurses. While it's true you get exposure to patient care and disease processes, you're not functioning in a provider role. Over the years I have learned to anticipate what may be ordered for a particular situation, but I want to understand why something works...how it works. Too many of my peers are just satisfied knowing that if you have a particular situation, then the doctor is going to order "x" treatment. That's not enough for me.

I think there is probably a place for APRNs, but I don't support independent practice. My nursing colleagues can cite all the articles they want, but until I see studies from people who don't have a vested interest in independent practice for APRNs, I'm going to continue to look at their research with a jaundiced eye.

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I've seen patients who had these "minor surgeries" go south...fast. Had a lap-chole case I will never forget. When things go seriously bad, who would I want to manage the chaos? It sure as shoot wouldn't be a nurse. If that makes me a Benedict Arnoldette, so be it.

Yeah...one clip of the common bile duct and things go south....there is no such thing as MINOR surgery. One can always interpret the anatomy incorrectly, that's why YEARS of experience matter for surgery...you know to limit the risk.

 

[touchpause13]

Yeah...one clip of the common bile duct and things go south....there is no such thing as MINOR surgery. One can always interpret the anatomy incorrectly, that's why YEARS of experience matter for surgery...you know to limit the risk.

Yeahhh seeing as before any surgery you have to sign a consent form saying you understand this could kill you..... I'm not buying the concept of minor surgery either

 

[Psai]

It's very annoying when reporters talk about "routine surgeries", even for things that aren't especially routine. It blows my mind that people can think so nonchalantly about being cut open as you're under a mixture of powerful drugs that can easily kill you, by experts who trained for years for that privilege.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

Wow, projecting much?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Please tell me a militant nurse proper, just entered the conversation?

 

[Nasrudin]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

And this...is how the Nursing People's Liberation Front culls dissenting voices to arrive at one singular vision that can be easily broadcast and propagandized.

Nice work Nurse Goebbels.

 

[deleted480308]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

this would be like calling me a traitor for saying that pastors with no pilot training should not be flying a plane...

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

Curious, what exactly should she be fighting for and why?
Please, I really want to understand this.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You don't have to understand anything. It is her profession, so she knows better. If she has has nothing to fight, then she should keep quiet. She doesn't need need to backbite her colleagues here.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[fab4fan]

TRAITOR. Talking ill about your profession does not make you a better person. It also does not make you the doctor's friend. That you feel inadequate as a nurse does not mean that others feel the same way. I have noticed how you bring down your profession just to belong here. But my dear, you don't belong here. So stop and fight for the profession that made you who you are. If you are not happy being a nurse, then you can go to medical school, that way, you wouldn't have to betray the profession anyway. Just tired of your posts.

Gee, well don't I feel put in my place by you, a, hmmm...what is it exactly you do?

I've been posting here for 12 years. If you knew anything about my post history, which by the way you can't since you've been here barely a week, you'd know that I've made plenty of posts in disagreement with others here. I don't feel inadequate in the least; I'm a good nurse, and I'm not afraid to say so. I've got nearly 30 years of experience and have been certified in multiple specialties.

One thing I will not do is walk in lock-step with members of my profession whom I feel are headed in the wrong direction. Learn how to think for yourself; it will open your mind up to all sorts of possibilities. Benjamin Franklin said, "If everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking."

I post here because I find many of the people here interesting. I have learned things here that have helped me in my practice, and I hope on occasion I have helped others when it comes to understanding things from a nurse's POV. If I didn't belong here, I'm sure the admins. would have given me the boot long already.

If you are tired of my posts, then I invite you to utilize the "ignore" feature, or simply scroll past them.

Oh, and don't call me dear. I'll hazard a guess that you are young enough to be my child. Condescention doesn't serve you well.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Lol here we go......finally

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Everybody should fight for what they believe in.

She believes that APRNs shouldn't have independent practice rights, should she fight for that belief?

 

[DrCharlemagne]

You don't have to understand anything. It is her profession, so she knows better. If she has has nothing to fight, then she should keep quiet. She doesn't need need to backbite her colleagues here.

Since when is assessing the arguments made by her peers, finding fault in them, and offering support to those who seek to remedy the situation traitorous? Nurses have a fine tradition of eating their own, but what she's doing here can hardly be deemed backbiting by anyone with an iota of sense. You're projecting your inadequacy and doubts onto an internet forum, and it's rather entertaining to watch you spew.

 

[fab4fan]

You will only be a traitor if it was your profession you are talking about. But since it isn't, then you are not.

You've read all 2,228 posts I've made since you joined last Friday? What, did you go to the Evelyn Wood School for Speed Reading? Perhaps you should do some more reading; I've done plenty of speaking up for nurses when I felt they were being treated unfairly here. Speaking out on something I take issue with hardly makes one a traitor. I haven't burned my nursing cap.

 

[VisionaryTics]

She believes that APRNs shouldn't have independent practice rights, should she fight for that belief?

She meant to say, "Everybody should fight for what I believe in."

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Pre-nursing student?

Although, she's already been indoctrinated on how to think uncritically and defend whatever camp she falls into, reason be damned.

Therefore:
$10 says Nursing student

 

[Ost3oclast]

Pre-nursing student?

Although, she's already been indoctrinated on how to think uncritically and defend whatever camp she falls into, reason be damned.

Therefore:
$10 says Nursing student

Maybe with hopes of DNP in the future? I think yes. With the rigorous application process, whose to say that he/she will actually get it though .....dem credentials must be poppin' for DNP.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Don't bring down your profession no matter what. You can disagree, but don't betray them.

Why is this a reasonable position to take? My responsibility (and Fab4Fan's) is to my patients first, my profession second. If I think my profession is doing a disservice to my patients, it is right and proper to recognize that disservice. And, yes, sometimes discussing it "outside the family" is OK too. This isn't the mafia.

 

[deleted480308]

You will only be a traitor if it was your profession you are talking about. But since it isn't, then you are not.

you are addressing rev. sb247...my point stands

 

[maxxor]

I am currently a doctoral student in one of the prestigious universities here in US. And no, i am not in DNP program. I didn't expect anything different from your reactions. You all get so emotional when it comes to NP issue. It's so funny to read your comments. I read them for fun, until I came across the traitor. You guys should continue with the discussion. Ignore me please. I have made my point.

It's hard to call someone a traitor unless they are a traitor to you.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

I am currently a doctoral student in one of the prestigious universities here in US. And no, i am not in DNP program. I didn't expect anything different from your reactions. You all get so emotional when it comes to NP issue. It's so funny to read your comments. I read them for fun, until I came across the traitor. You guys should continue with the discussion. Ignore me please. I have made my point.

Based on your syntax and arguments, I sincerely doubt that you are at any sort of prestigious institution. You're the one flailing about with hyperbolic accusations of treason and demanding lock-step adherence, mindless obedience;* most of us are not feeling much beyond mild amusement.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I am currently a doctoral student in one of the prestigious universities here in US. And no, i am not in DNP program. I didn't expect anything different from your reactions. You all get so emotional when it comes to NP issue. It's so funny to read your comments. I read them for fun, until I came across the traitor. You guys should continue with the discussion. Ignore me please. I have made my point.

No, you aren't. You think and write like a child.

 

[DocVapor]

Ignore me please. I have made my point.

Yes, you have made A point. It's just not the one you were intending.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Recognize the disservice here in SDN? Is that the proper way to go about it? You love hearing negative things about the nursing profession just to boost your already deflated ego. You guys talk thrash here just to make yourselves feel good. I don't blame you though.

So why are you here? You're flinging a lot of negativity about, and not doing it very well.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Most of you? talk about yourself first.

You're not very good at the Internet, are you?

 

[maxxor]

Recognize the disservice here in SDN? Is that the proper way to go about it? You love hearing negative things about the nursing profession just to boost your already deflated ego. You guys talk thrash here just to make yourselves feel good. I don't blame you though.

And Allnurses is any different?

Please either offer something constructive or leave.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Yes, I am. And you can't take that away from me.

I don't even....

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Like I said earlier. I visit once in a while when I have the time just to amuse myself. I love both professions and feel you should make healthy argument. and not try to run the other down.

Unless you're trying to run down our Nurse friend here...AMIRIGHT?!

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Like I said earlier. I visit once in a while when I have the time just to amuse myself. I love both professions and feel you should make healthy argument. and not try to run the other down.

Nice to see you're leading by example.

 

[DocVapor]

Like I said earlier. I visit once in a while when I have the time just to amuse myself. I love both professions and feel you should make healthy argument. and not try to run the other down.

Please go back and re-read your first post, and then read this one. Then come back and try again.

Edit: @WhippleWhileWeWork @DrCharlemagne --- Our minds have become one!

 

[maxxor]

Allnurses is no different my dear. If I see an MD talking ill of the medical profession in allnurses, I will still say the same thing. I don't just like people betraying their own. But so far, allnurses is for nurses and they can write anything, it is their forum, same way SDN is for medical students and you guys can write anything. But talking ill of ones own was what led me to respond. like I said, continue with your talk, ignore me.

You have a bizarre world outlook and way too much time on your hands if you can monitor both Allnurses and SDN for people talking ill of their own profession.

Also, I'm certainly older than you. Stop calling people "dear". That alone makes me think you are a nurse.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Please go back and re-read your first post, and then read this one. Then come back and try again.

Edit: @WhippleWhileWeWork @DrCharlemagne --- Our minds have become one!

Great minds, amiright?

Then again, calling this spade a spade wasn't exactly rocket surgery.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

I just made a statement. I didn't run any of the profession down.

Behold, the reasoning of a prestigious PhD candidate.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Also, I'm certainly older than you. Stop calling people "dear". That alone makes me think you are a nurse.

"Dear" and "honey" talk is almost always from a nurse. Its their own special little way of attempting to talk down in the only way they know how.