NRMP Sued today

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Juice

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Read today's NY Times. A class action anti-trust lawsuit was filed against 7 medical organizations and over 1,000 hospitals. The claim states that the match program is a violation of allowing market forces to work, and that programs collaborate with one another to keep salaries low. The claim sited work hours and wages, and is look at damages that could reach over 10 billion.. check it out..

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Yup. Here's a link:
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/health/07DOCS.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/health/07DOCS.html</a>

I was just posting in the lounge how if they win, this could be really bad news for medical training in general. Health care costs would probably go up and a lot of already borderline academic centers would probably go under. Stinks if you just finished your residency too and then they decide to institute all these changes.
 
Thanks for pointing us in the right direction. The article is quite intriguing. Although this sort of thing has failed to make much headway in the past, we can always look to brighter futures.

Sadly, I think there is less than a shot in hell that a meaningful change in salary will be appreciated. With the state of health care in this country, I believe the powers that be will continue to rape and plunder residents of their time, money and life.
 
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I'm new to the forum and just wanted to add my idea on the subject,

If resident salaries did go up, the MANY borderline troubled instituitions would be in real trouble wouldn't they??

Unless, they got more federal funding they may end up being shut down. At best case scenario, they would definetly need to downsize their res. programs and thus in the end it is the future residents (present students) who take the brunt of the effects.

I never had a problem with the poor pay (inhumane work hours is different though) because it is sort of a give and take situation with residency. U know u will be payed like crap for 3-7 yrs., but also know u will make a good salary and security for the REST of ur life once u start practicing.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
•••quote:••• Please someone correct me if I am wrong. ••••Your Wrong, I will correct you. Residency is a job in that you are contracted by a hospital to deliver certain skills. You WORK for the hospital. Worse, in many cases, you earn less than minimum wage. It is reprehensible and outrageous that someone with advanced training like resident MD's would be expected to work slave labor jobs in a hospital. What is more sinister is that this has become so commonplace that would be Residents accept and embrace this sort of slavery imposed by a defunct health care system that abuses those who can least afford it.

I think this lawsuit is ultimately doomed to failure, but at the very least, it will make people more aware of a deeply troubling issue.
 
Klebsiella is right. There is only one career I know of that pays MORE in the military than in the civilian sector....a resident doctor, by about 10k before benefits...
 
I, for one, will be glad to see the suit fail. Maybe I'm just afaid of change or something but I don't want to see what would happen if the system was turned on its head or as was mentioned before residents were making 100K. What's everyone complaining about anyway? I mean sure we will work for meager wages for ~3-7 years, but 35-50K is still enough money to live on and after residency we all know that doctors make more than enough to live comfortably. Besides that, the length of residency is a matter of choice (i.e. if you don't want to work 100 hour weeks for 40K/year for 7 years don't go into neurosurgery).

Another important point from my view is that the difficulty and relatively low pay of residency serves as a deterrent for people who would otherwise enter medicine JUST for the money. If things became like they are at top law schools (where grads can easily make 125K right out of school) I think we would see very differnt kinds of applicants at medical schools and medicine as a field would be much worse off.

In short, I like the Match program and I like the way things are. I hope we don't mess with it.
 
Hi Klebsiella,

I understand and TOTALLY agree with ur points, BUT nothing in ur post in response to my post says anything to prove or disprove my statement can't and wouldn't happen if such a lawsuit is passed.

Like many I don't think the important thing of such a lawsuit is to see the gains of a single victory, but to forsee the POSSIBLE ramifications of such a change.

For example, why would a hosp. want to take 2 res. making combined $200,000 when they could take an attending with A LOT more exp., less chance of making mistakes, and needing NO overseeing by another paid attending and pay him the same at $200,000??

Thanks.
 
Hi ether,

I appreciate your concern. I am afraid you are a bit confused on how Residents are compensated. Hospitals receive $200k for each AMG they employ. For an IMG that number is roughtly $100k. The hospital not only gets the additional 160k in cash, but they get something far more valueable, slave labor. I don't believe you can accurately compare Residents and Attendings in this scenario. The hospitals are robbing residents blind, and convincing them that this is good.

The fallout of ponying up fair compensation would most certainly have far reaching ramifications. But that is a very poor excuse, in my opinion, to perpetuate a system of slave labor that sucks every bit of time, money and life out residents. This oppressive labor system is a modern day slave trade known as medical residency.

What you are saying is essentially that Residents should bare the burden while hospitals get rich. I find this rhetoric unacceptable and disturbing, as it comes from one of my peers. Those who spend years of toiling in graduate medical education deserve fair compensation like anyone else in any other profession. That you don't see this is somewhat perplexing.

I made more money as a tutor 5 years ago, much much much more. And worked a quarter of the hours.

The salary and work hours are impossibly unfair and cannot/will not continue interminably. I hope that this lawsuit helps others in positions of influence see how residents have been bludgeoned for far too long. At the very least, we should be able to negotiate with our employers a fair compensation package. Things will change, it's just a matter of when.
 
Change in medicine, unfortunately, occurs glacially slow. Jargon, with all due respect, if you had liked the status quo in the 1930's when my father trained, your "compensation" as they euphemistically call residents' salaries these days, would have been nil. Residents in that era worked exclusively for room and board only. Something to think about.

For some "dumb" reason, I believe that after years of training, and working the long hours that I do, I feel that I am worth more than $2.65 an hour approximately (after taxes). If I went to "Hamburger College" I would be already earning double that in an hourly wage. Frankly, that's just absurd.
 
You'd have to work around 180 hours per week, with no vacation to be making $2.65 per hour (after tax). Do the math. I've done it, and as a PGY-1 I make $12.50 per hour (before tax). Not great, not good, but much better than most residents think they make. Also alot better than many phD's make (if they're lucky enough to even find a job).
 
Also........interns/residents do have it tough, but we knew what we were signing up for. I think that working hard for a few years for mediocre pay is not such a big deal considering how much money we will all make in the future. I don't know about most of you people out there in cyberspace, but if I compare my lifestyle to the people I grew up with I am doing as well or better than most. And most of these people cannot count on making the kind of money I'll make in the future.

All I can say is suck it up and quit whining everyone. We don't have it that bad.
 
dbiddy,

Your problem is simple, you somehow got into medical school without any math prerequisites.

Fuzzy math indeed
 
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I think the residency system is going to have to change at some point. First of all, doctors don't make that much money for the hours and time they spend preparing for it, especially when you take into account student loans. Salaries are dropping and hours are increasing. Medical school applications are decreasing every year. There are just easier ways to make money at this point.

Secondly, I just can't buy that the hospitals won't be able to pull that money out to adequately compensate residents (or, for example, hire more staff to take care of more of the administrative/scut work that residents do). You'd be surprised at the shuffling corporations can do when they have to. Of course they don't now- what's the incentive? They are getting an incredible number of hours and labor from a workforce that has no choice but to participate, and the hospitals are getting paid for it!
 
It amazes me that some posters can be so myopic to argue that this system is justified by the money we can all earn eventually. This logic is scary bad. The system in this great country is one of supply and demand. Should lawyers have to donate years to the federal gov't because they can "make it up later". Or more appropriately, should they have to intern within the hospital system- that would certainly cut health care costs in this country... The point is not that residency will bankrupt us... it is that an artificial system of collusion insulates wages from the laws of supply and demand that mold all other fields. And this bogus talk of "it could be worse, we could make nothing"... thats victim speak- should we that them for not beating us too?
Why do we need to do a 3rd year- why cant attendings teach the pgy1's- ill tell why- cheap labor. This system needs an overhaul- and while it may feel comfortable to us all, the status quo is always difficult to change- when it needs to be done, it always feel right after (see womens sufferage, Black voting------- extreme examples ill give you)- Thats what I think
 
Yeah, it is true. Jamdmd and Klebsiella are right; why? just because, you do not know if you'll live more than tomorrow. One needs to have a life today, not in 5 years, according to his education and effort. 4 years of college and 4 of medical school are certainly worth more than 40,000K...or rather if we consider the number of hours worked, more than 12.50$/hour, by any other measure and comparison in our society.
 
Yeah, it is true. Jamdmd and Klebsiella are right; why? just because, you do not know if you'll live more than tomorrow. One needs to have a life today, not in 5 years, according to his education and effort. 4 years of college and 4 of medical school are certainly worth more than 40,000K...or rather if we consider the number of hours worked, more than 12.50$/hour, by any other measure and comparison in our society.
 
Yeah, it is true. Jamdmd and Klebsiella are right; why? just because, you do not know if you'll live more than tomorrow. One needs to have a life today, not in 5 years, according to his education and effort. 4 years of college and 4 of medical school are certainly worth more than 40,000K...or rather if we consider the number of hours worked, more than 12.50$/hour, by any other measure and comparison in our society.
 
Rich Health Care Administrators (2002): "It's too bad that we have have to use an oppressed labor force to keep our hospitals going, BUT without the NRMP it would cost Americans too much money. And, we just can't afford to change."

Ante-bellum Southerners (1861): "It's too bad that we have to use a slave labor force to pick our cotton, but If slavery ends our economy will be ruined, and people will suffer."

Sweat shop owner, East Timor (1998): "Little kids, small hands, no pay ...equals cheap t-sirts. People need cheap t-shirts."

Simple fact: the NRMP is a monoploy. It violates anti-trust laws, and should be decomissioned. Using collusion and oppressive work conditions to keep wages down and fincnace an already bloated medical econmoy is immoral. Period.
 
This back and forth between different posters serve to highlight the difficulties facing this lawsuit--that the people in the same crappy situation are not united. The suit will fail, sadly. To those who think it is peachy to work insane hours for peanuts, all I gotta say is you're stupid. Yep. Stupid. It's really not name calling -- just observations. :)

At my school, the people who likes staying late at the hospital for "learning" purposes tends not to have a life outside of medicine. It's sad. Just because you want to work 100 hours a week to avoid living life doesn't mean I want to. And those who do not want to disturb the status quo are chicken-****. (More name calling). Just because that's the way things have been done for eons doesn't mean we should continue it. Idiots.
 
The NRMP was brought about to bring order to what was previously a chaotic process of obtaining your medical training. It works to our benfit, just talk to physicians in their 60's+ about what it was like in the day (I've talked @ great length with my father about this - a 67 yo surgeon).

Klebsiella- I strongly disagree with your characterization of residency as a job. It's an apprenticeship to learn how to be a physician on patients whose responsibility/liability is someone else's (your attending physician). We provide a service (our labor), but we recieve much,much more in return - the privledge of becoming part of a nobel profession
 
a priviledge to join the profession huh?... i could do with the same priviledge without the abuse inherent in the system. Really, can people be so brainwashed to think that the system was established to provide us all with quality "learning". People learn on their jobs all the time, big deal. We are all highly qualified graduate level employees that are forced to provide cheap labor while biding our time to "score" when we get out... and by "score" I assume you mean "pay off loans for 30 years", because thats what the average one of us has before him or her. Please dont be duped by this "its a priviledge so we deserve to suffer" junk. Its clear that we are sacrificed (albeit temporarily) for the good of health care in this country. An earlier poster made the accurate point that southerners complained that their economic system couldn't survive african american emancipation- lo and behold, things worked out. No one needs to be abused- even more so, we don't need to be misled about our duty to serve so as to become "priviledged".....please...
 
I agree with kleb, dont all of you realize that nothing really worth doing was ever easy?

Nobody said this isnt going to have repercussions if it passes, but thats besides the point. I think deep down we all know its the right thing to do, and some of us just keep getting caught up in the possible problems and use them as a crutch to dismiss a greater good.

Now, I dont think residents should get 100k per year, but I know market forces would drive it higher than the 35-40k average it is now.

Yes, its true hospitals will have to change. But does anybody believe that the government is just going to let hospitals go under left and right without some type of transition plan until a permanent plan can be put into place? Some of you make it sound like massive numbers of hospitals going financially under is a foregone conclusion with this suit winning in court, yet fail to provide convincing evidence of that.

The truth is that hospitals make a profit on residents. Medicare funds all residency positions, so the hospitals arent paying anything. And Medicare doenst need to increase funding to pay residents better either. All residents are asking for is a fair share of the money pie that the hospital is BEING GIVEN by the government.

droliver,

sure residents do learn a lot on the job, but seriously out of those 100 hour work weeks, a significant portion of the stuff residents do is crap work that could be done by a person with a high school education.
 
You know, that's great and all that someone is trying to change the system. All things do need change, but I don't even know if I would want things changed SO drastically that we're paid like attendings as soon as we're out. What I would like to see is maybe reducing attending salaries by up to $10,000 a year so residents can get a little more. It would be like taking slightly less money in the future that we probably wouldn't feel and getting earlier when it can make a HUGE difference.

Also, I would rather see the efforts of this lawsuit aimed at the real crooks, and that is the NBME!! The prices we pay for these outrageous tests really need to be reexamined. The whole blindly accepting the status quo is much more Orwellian in this example than with resident salaries. I mean, at least with residency, you can say you're getting training out of it. With the USMLE, you know there's a bunch of NBME doctor execs who just sit there and collect the money for minimal work...
 
People,

I can't believe that some medical students and residents do not understand the simplest economics and vocally **support** the exploitation of resident/intern labor market. Just consider the following comparisons for a little perspective on this matter and ask yourself, "how much am I worth?":

The starting salary for a junior associate at a law firm versus the starting salary of an intern...

The starting salary for a newly minted MBA at a fortune 500 company versus the starting salary of an intern...

The starting salary for a computer scientist (master's level) at a solid dot com company versus an intern...

Compare the levels of training, the intensity of training, the professional responsibility, and costs of obtaining the relevent education and ask yourself if **you** as an intern are being paid what you're worth? Consider the debt that physicians incur and the day-to-day stress and responsibility of making life or death decisions and ask yourself if you're being paid what you're worth?

It is a fact that medicine has one of the lowest rates of returns on professional education, while lawyers have rates of returns almost twice that of physicians! (see reference below)

Is it any wonder why lawyers are running the country? Based upon the lackluster response to this issue by those with a vested interest in fairer working conditions for intern/resident physicians, it is obvious that the reason why physicians get taken advantage by the lawyers, MBA's, HMO's, PAs/NPs/CRNAs etc daily is because physicians just don't know how to give a **** about their own common good. Read these words slowly and **THINK** about what they mean: "Students can still anticipate relatively poorer returns on their educational investment when they choose a career in primary care medicine as compared with careers in procedure-based medicine or surgical specialties, business, law, or dentistry."

------------------------------------
Revisiting a Comparison of Educational Costs and Incomes of Physicians and Other Professionals

Correspondence and requests for reprints should be sent to Dr. Weeks, VAMC (11Q), WRJ, VT 05009; telephone: (802) 291-6285; e-mail: &lt;[email protected] &gt;.

The authors previously compared the 1990 educational costs and incomes of physicians and other professional groups. Since then, there have been dramatic changes in the market for the groups examined. This article reports their update of the previous analysis, using 1997 data. For this update, the authors applied standard financial techniques to expected incomes and educational costs to determine the return on educational investment over the working lifetime for five professional groups: primary care physicians, procedure-based physicians, dentists, attorneys, and graduates of the top 20 business schools.

The hours-adjusted net present values of the educational investments for attorneys ($10.73) and procedure-based physicians ($10.40) are considerably higher than those for dentists ($8.90) and businessmen ($8.27); the return for primary care physicians ($5.97) remains much lower than all others. Primary care physicians have an hours-adjusted internal rate of return on their educational investment equal to 16%, compared with 18% for procedure-based medicine, 22% for dentistry, 23% for law, and 26% for business. Although it remains the lowest of all professional groups examined, primary care medicine has made the largest percentage gain in net present value of all groups.

Although anticipated changes in physician incomes have occurred, the standing of physicians relative to other professional groups has not changed. Students can still anticipate relatively poorer returns on their educational investment when they choose a career in primary care medicine as compared with careers in procedure-based medicine or surgical specialties, business, law, or dentistry.
 
Thanks, Drusso. I pretty much said the same thing on another thread of this topic. It just absolutely astounds me that so many posters here feel they should not be paid commensurate to their worth, regardless of the "privilege" of entering a "noble" profession. [A description that I myself have used and one that I,too, ascribe to.]

That program in Hawaii that makes over $12.00 an hour is certainly more than my friends and I made in various states on the mainland, when we all were PGY-1's. (And yes, I had done the math at the time, thank you very much.)

It's gotta be the ''brainwashing'' of "others did it, therefore I can do it, too", or it's just a "rites of passage" thing, or some other such nonsense. I can't think of another reason why folks would readily accept this kind of abuse with a smile on their faces. And no, it's not whining at all. Most folks entering medicine today are not fresh out of school, many having chosen to get advanced degrees in allied or even unrelated fields. How many years should one give to indentured servitude before one is considered "worthy" of receiving a respectable salary?

The suit will most likely fail, because of the basic problem with the definition (as someone else had already mentioned): are residents employees or are they students? Even the IRS briefly thought the latter and granted FICA refunds this past year, until they changed their minds and demanded the money back. (For some residents, that amounted to over $9,000.00 covering three years of their training at $3,000 per year of refund. That was just too much for the IRS to just "give away" apparently.) It will be interesting to see how this suit fares, as opposed to the others that preceded it. I'd like to see what will make this one different. At the very least, it will draw a lot of much needed attention to a very serious issue.
 
I noticed a lot of posters have really concentrated on the money issue. While it's true that compensation for work done is certainly an important aspect of this case, I personally think that perhaps an even more important issue is the fact that residents are severely OVERWORKED!

Any environment in which an employee (or student, or apprentice, or however you want to classify a resident)is expected to put in 100+ hours a week is hardly conducive to a balanced life. Not only is it inhumane to treat residents this way, it is dangerous for the patients to be treated by a resident who is post call and hasn't slept in 36 hours.

"Normal people" work 40 hours a week. Just to put things in perspective for everyone. I am certainly not expecting anyone to cut resident's hours to this. That would be ridiculous. I realize that there is a lot of work to do, and not always enough people to do it. I also realize that even most attendings regularly put in a pretty hefty number of hours themselves. BUT, I definitely think that there need to be some changes made with regards to hours worked.
 
The unfortunate reality is that many hospitals rely on this "slave" labor to survive. There really is no money to pay residents more at many institutions. To prevent massive hospital closures or lay-offs, one would have to seek external funding to increase residents salaries. The ultimate source of increased residents' salaries will have to be funded by either a private health insurance tax or an increase in the federal government reimbursement rate per resident.

While I am all for a higher resident's salaries, there in no way attendings (not mentioned in the lawsuit, just hospitals and NRMP) would "give" residents any of their hard earned money. This practice exists in law firms, where partners dole out part of the total profits to newly minted associates.
 
NuMD97,

I'm not exactly sure what being paid commensurate for my worth is, as you refer to it. I (an incompletely trained surgeon) made $41,000 last year and had the oppurtunity to learn my craft under the auspices of my attending physicians- a valuable thing in & of itself. Do I feel underpaid - NO. This whole discussion ignores hundreds of years of the role of an apprenticeship in medical training. By historical standards we are compensated better than ever, and will almost certainly all be in the top 1-2% of wage earners when done. Comparisons to junior law associates,dot.com hirees, etc. are not applicable standards.

And if I hear more moaning about work hours,etc.. from any of the specialties who spend about 50% as much time as I do on the job I will be sick (you know who you are)
 
Amen, Droliver!
 
To be honest with you, this entire lawsuit smells like one big extortion attempt. For the sake of controlling our escalating health care costs, there's no chance of any significant change in resident salaries occurring in the near future. We know it, the government and hospitals know it, and certainly the plaintiffs know it.

However, by claiming to represent thousands of residents, assuming this thing makes it to class action status, all 14 firms stand to win potentially millions of dollars if they can force a settlement. This would result in only superficial changes being made to the system in return for the lawyers and principal plantiffs (Jung, et al) receiving the lion's share of anything gained and likely only a small fraction actually going to the residents themselves.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by droliver:

By historical standards we are compensated better than ever•••••Also, "by historical standards" black Americans today have a lower rate of infant mortality than ever before, so they should just quietly put up with the gross health care disparities that exist in today's American society.

And "by historical standards", living to the age of 40 is a minor miracle, so health care monies should be redistributed so as to help everyone reach this magic number, and then funding should be abruptly be cut off to everyone who is older, since the older-than-40 crowd should just be grateful that, "by historical standards", they made it so far.

"By historical standards" is the wrong the way to determine public policy. "By contemporary standards" makes more sense to me.

davidgreen

P.S. That Sandpaper message with self-described "name-calling" was hilarious and right on the mark!
 
This issue is very similar to the one in England. Residents routinely work 80+ hours, and the impending EU regulations prohibit work weeks over 48 hours. The British government has dragged its heels, appealed, and delayed its implementation by over ten years! In the end, it comes down to money. Society and the health care system are used to the high-output work residents provide. Pay them more, and system is strained. They work less hours? Well, you still need the coverage, so you're paying more people. Here in Australia, the intern workload is considerably less than that in the UK or the US, but the residents here also are mired in the system for longer. Time to obtaining a consultancy or even a good senior registrar post could be more than a decade. I don't think the system in the US, as it is, could handle paying residents drastically more, or drastically cutting their hours. Though it would be nice...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by rsk77:
•This issue is very similar to the one in England. Residents routinely work 80+ hours, and the impending EU regulations prohibit work weeks over 48 hours. The British government has dragged its heels, appealed, and delayed its implementation by over ten years! In the end, it comes down to money. Society and the health care system are used to the high-output work residents provide. Pay them more, and system is strained. They work less hours? Well, you still need the coverage, so you're paying more people. Here in Australia, the intern workload is considerably less than that in the UK or the US, but the residents here also are mired in the system for longer. Time to obtaining a consultancy or even a good senior registrar post could be more than a decade. I don't think the system in the US, as it is, could handle paying residents drastically more, or drastically cutting their hours. Though it would be nice...•••••But the UK has slashed its hours, raised salaries, and begun hiring foreign doctors to fill the shortfall-- I know for sure, since a number of my colleagues have headed there and found good jobs recently.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by droliver:
•NuMD97,

I'm not exactly sure what being paid commensurate for my worth is, as you refer to it. I (an incompletely trained surgeon) made $41,000 last year and had the oppurtunity to learn my craft under the auspices of my attending physicians- a valuable thing in & of itself. Do I feel underpaid - NO. This whole discussion ignores hundreds of years of the role of an apprenticeship in medical training. By historical standards we are compensated better than ever, and will almost certainly all be in the top 1-2% of wage earners when done. Comparisons to junior law associates,dot.com hirees, etc. are not applicable standards.

And if I hear more moaning about work hours,etc.. from any of the specialties who spend about 50% as much time as I do on the job I will be sick (you know who you are)•••••There's a difference between working hard and working smarter. Physicians continue to train under an apprenticeship model for tradition's sake not evidence-based cognitive science. The comparison to other fields (law, business, technology) is appropriate as these technical fields have managed to raise the rates of return on their educational investment while physicians have stagnated. Most physicians could have gone to law school or gotten an MBA. I believe we chose a more rigorous (and more noble) service and deserve to have a higher rate of return on our investment. You should not let yourself be made a martyr to medical tradition.
 
Well said, Drusso. As I said on another thread relating to this same topic, if one is satisfied with the status quo and the "apprenticeship" as it is now being referred to here, then you would still be toiling as physicians did in the 1930's for just room and board and no "stipend", as it is euphemistically called. I doubt that anyone in these days and times would even consider such a thing.

Change can be a welcoming thing. But the lawsuit will most likely fail as others have before it, but at the very least, it brings up, once again, a very important issue that the public needs to be made painfully aware of: it's not all about money, it's equally about safety and quality patient care.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by droliver:
•NuMD97,

I'm not exactly sure what being paid commensurate for my worth is, as you refer to it. I (an incompletely trained surgeon) made $41,000 last year and had the oppurtunity to learn my craft under the auspices of my attending physicians- a valuable thing in & of itself. Do I feel underpaid - NO. This whole discussion ignores hundreds of years of the role of an apprenticeship in medical training. By historical standards we are compensated better than ever, and will almost certainly all be in the top 1-2% of wage earners when done. Comparisons to junior law associates,dot.com hirees, etc. are not applicable standards.

And if I hear more moaning about work hours,etc.. from any of the specialties who spend about 50% as much time as I do on the job I will be sick (you know who you are)•••••droliver, that is absolute CRAP.

i cant believe your *****ic opinion. you're speaking as a victim of this system and basically reaching out for anything to justify your acceptance of such a lifestyle....its called avoiding cognitive dissonance.

while youre hugging your irrelevent "historical standards", youre completely missing the most basic facts. residents work unbelievable hours, have very stressful responsibilities, and are completely exploited by hospitals. its a vicious system that has been accepted for way to long. hospitals PROFIT from taking in residents, that is not a theory, that is FACT. And every starting professional in any field learns on the job. If any other industry treated their newbies like hospitals treat residents, it would be declared a criminal act. Its not even the money thats the most serious issue...its the ridiculous time demands. And what the hell do historical standards have to do with this? The whole idea of apprenticeship is nice wrapping on basic exploitation. Sure, compared to the past, things are better. But look at every other industry and you'll see that medicine has maintained its archaic hierarchy, while all other fields have responded to changing social and cultural values...im talking about the emphasis on free markets, ample time for family and personal freedom, and the basic idea that work should fit into your life, YOUR LIFE SHOULD NOT FIT INTO YOUR WORK. Why shouldnt we compare our lives with the lives of dot.com'ers, lawyers, etc? we are all humans...where is it written that doctors are the exception and should accept unjust practices?

And what is all this about being afraid of change? the world changes whether you like it or not, and people, their institutions, and lifestyles should change accordingly. It's cowardly opinions like yours that allows a flawed system to perpetuate.

im sorry i picked on you, but you got me started. this is for all of you that think this lawsuit is wrong. it raises vitally important issues and hopefully will bring out at least some recognition and changes.
 
I guess its time for me to get in on this debate (and probably get flamed as well).

The impact of the lawsuit is more than just money. Its asking for the centralized match system to be abolished in favor a "free market". This would be a disaster: Hundreds of residency programs, thousands of students and no rules to protect either one. Trying to get a residency (and keep it) would be chaos.

As for the money aspect, I agree that residents are underpayed. With the amount of education they have, they should make more than fast food assistant managers. A huge jump in salary is unrealistic. Think about it this way: There are approxiamtely 21,000 pgy-1 posititions in the match. If you assume that these are all only 3 year residencies (I'm being conservative), that equates to about 60,000 residents. If everybody gets a $20,000 raise (which in my mind is way too small), you need to find an extra 1.2 billion dollars a year. With hospitals closing nation-wide like crazy and lower insurance and governmental rembursement it would be hard to find the money. The real answer is hours. Working for $40,000 year for 50 hours a week is much better than for 80.

One other thing. I too think it is wrong to equate "top law school graduates" going to big law firms with medical interns. Top law school graduates going to Manhattan/LA/San Francisco firms represent a very small percentage of those graduating from law school. Many new lawyers scramble to find any job, let alone one that pays well. Many top law graduates take low paying jobs. Judicial law clerks, who incidently work significant hours, earn less than many medical interns. Most prosecutors and public defenders make about what a resident makes -- public interest lawyers make even less (legal aid, death penalty project). Finally, lawyers for law firm have virtually no job security. Please don't get me wrong, I think residents are getting screwed, I just don't hink the comparison to newly graduated lawyers is a fair one.

Ed
 
droliver said:

•••quote:•••I'm not exactly sure what being paid commensurate for my worth is ••••Neither am I, thats precisely why we need to stand united and agressively pursue the end to the last bastion of slavery left in america. Once market factors rather than monopoly are permitted to work, we will all be better off.

•••quote:••• I feel underpaid - NO. This whole discussion ignores hundreds of years of the role of an apprenticeship in medical training. By historical standards we are compensated better than ever, and will almost certainly all be in the top 1-2% of wage earners when done. ••••Your whimsical and almost arbitrary dismissal of far more important issues is alarming. I normally would laugh off your risible display, but unfortunately my compensation is directly tied to lobby of my peers.

I am comforted to see others do not share this warped and twisted view of resident employment. You are free to view your self as 'noble' and 'honored' to work in the medical profession. I am not here to debate that. I am also not here to sway your inexorable pursuit of depravity and squalor. Thats your business. How dare you try to take the rest of us with you!

What the NRMP has done 'for hundreds of years' is maintain an illegal and monopolistic strangle hold on resident PHYSICIANS. Whatever convoluted jargon you choose to describe your role, it doesn't dimiss the fact that we are advanced degree holders who are employed by the hospital. The law even interprets this as a job.

The fact that you may be a glutton for punishment, and naive about your role, isn't our problem.

•••quote:••• Comparisons to junior law associates,dot.com hirees, etc. are not applicable standards. ••••How so? How about garbage men, janitors, beer salesmen, babysitters, or lemonaide salesboys. They all receive fairer compensation than you. Oh yeah I forgot, your an 'apprentice' and don't deserve fair compensation, despite 10+ extra years of training.

How about we compare ourselves to others who receive advanced post-grad training than? Attorneys, MBAs, Physician assistants, nurses and operating room techs for crying out loud. It doesn't bother you that your squeaky OR nurse earns a higher hourly salary than you do? To each his own. Just do us a favor, crawl into a corner somewhere so you don't spoil it for the rest of us. Sheesh.

I challenge you to really put some thought into this initiative. It will be a sad day in hell when I share such a low opinion of myself. Your opinions and rhetoric only serve to steer the fate of the hardscrabble resident Physician towards more peril.
 
I am only a lowly MS1, but I have a question. Some of the posts on these threads have made the assertion that if this lawsuit succeeds, that will completely eliminate the match system as it currently stands, possibly making the process of obtaining a residency that much more chaotic and difficult and unsecure. I'm not sure I see this jump of logic. Wouldn't it be possible to keep some form of the match system but still compensate residents more fairly? Would it be possible to simply make it illegal for programs to share so much information about resident salaries/collude on setting the salaries? If this was done, couldn't salary/compensation packages be discussed and negotiated during the interview process, and then both sides could take this into consideration when setting up their rankings? I apologize if these questions seem naive or irrelevant -- I just don't see how changing compensation or work hours necessarily means that the entire match system has to go by the wayside.
 
I think Edmadison has a point. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for higher pay and shorter work hours. However, the lack of a centralized residency matching agency and a standard pay schedule could lead to some very interesting residency interviews.

Program: I had a Harvard grad and an MD/PhD in here last week. They both asked for $80K a year and a guaranteed 5% raise every year after. I see you have a 2.0 GPA, failed the boards three times, and graduated from a medical school in Mexico. Would you take the job for $30K a year.

Student: You bet.

Program: Deal. I'll inform the other two candidates to pray for a lower tier position.

And as crazy as that scenario may seem, I've seen people do a lot crazier things especially when money is involved.
 
People,

I will repost the original data, because I am truly amazed that more of you have not seriously considered what it means. I can only believe that it underscores some thing powerful about "the psychology of oppression." You have been led to believe, and seem to readily accept, that the status quo is okay and impossible to change lest the entire health care industry comes crumbling down around us.

Yet, amazingly, lawyers were able to increase the rate of return on their education without the judicial system crumbling, MBAs have managed to extract a high rate of return on their training without throwing us into global economic destruction. No, only the doctors refuse to raise the economic bar for their junior colleagues for fear of everything around them coming crumbling down.

Just to reiterate, compared to all other comparable professionals, we have THE LOWEST rate of return on our education. I'm not talking about comparing a top law graduate to a midling medical school graduate or a top MBA to a ordinary family practice intern, I'm talking talking about across the board, at all levels, physicians have the lowest rate of return. How did it get this way? Well, this rate is low, in part, because the US Graduate Medical Education system keeps it artificially low while the government and private lenders extract from a majority of medical graduates ridiculous interest on educational loans.

Again, here is what your educational investment is worth per hour over your entire practice lifetime:

Lawyers: $10.73
Procedure-based physicians: $10.40
Dentists: $8.90
MBAs: $8.27
Primary care physicians: $5.97

Revisiting a Comparison of Educational Costs and Incomes of Physicians and Other Professionals
Academic Medicine
William Weeks, VAMC (11Q), WRJ, VT 05009; telephone: (802) 291-6285; e-mail: &lt;[email protected] &gt;.

Perhaps if you're a surgeon you may be comfortable with this. You might feel it is equitable and the rest of your colleagues are simply whining. I, for one, do not see why it is justified that a lawyer (with significantly less advanced training than a internist, FP, pediactrian, or OB/GYN) should have a rate of return of twice that of a PCP.
 
I agree with some of you guys and then some of you guys I disagree with. I personally think that hospitals should keep the wages at where they are at for PGY-1 and PGY-2 but once you get past the first 2 years of residency, salaries should go up more than what they are at. Because once the resident hits 3rd year, they can do a lot of care that the regular docs can do.. maybe not to the full extent but they can do quite a bit. 3rd and 4th year (especially 4th) residents are still in training but the hospital probably depends greatly on them and because of that should be paid like $10,000 more than what they were getitng paid.
 
Here are my two cents... Residents are overworked. No more than an 80 hour work week is a reasonable limit for work hours. Residents are underpaid. Since you are still a student but also an employee with an advanced degree I think 60-80K/year is a reasonable range for salaries as it is below that of a seasoned attending yet is more reflective of the time that has been put into the educational process up until that point. It is difficult to compare medical on the job training to other fields where advanced degrees are used like business and law because in medicine if you don't have the proper post graduate training you can kill people. There is no need to standardize and regulate on the job training in business and law because the outcomes of inadequate training don't deal with life and death. As for the matching system I don't see why that needs to be changed in order to address the overpaid/underworked issue. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Dr Russo,

Interesting post. One thing your calculations don't take into account (I believe) are the vast number of years that we are unable to save for retirement vis a vis 401k type savings plans. When you factor that into the equation, we are being robbed blind. We are all losing literally millions of dollars more in retirement savings than your average attorney. They are able to save more, at a much earlier time in their life. This results in a phenomenal dollar figure that often keeps me up at night.

Unfortunately business 101 isn't a prerequisite to med school. It damn well ought to be.
 
Having recently gone through the matching process, I can speak to some of the disadvantages it gives to the applicant.

One example is that of program collusion. Although match rules are very strict regarding what information programs and applicants can give to one another (programs cannot promise spots to an applicant pre-match), programs are freely able to collude among themselves. I was told by the program director at one institution that they will have conversations with each other to the effect of "we'll give you applicant#1 this year, but we want applicant#2." Thus, the programs will rank in such a way as to obtain the agreed upon applicants. The collusion is helped by the fact that applicants are encouraged to let their top choices know that they are ranked #1, etc., so that the programs have the information they need to collude.

Another example is that applicants, up until the day they match, will do nothing except court the programs because they have not been "offered" a spot. This means that applicants are very unlikely to tell the programs their flaws--i.e. "I have a family and $200000 in loans, but I'm really interested in your program. I can't live on the salary you're offering. Can we work out a deal?" The programs never get feedback from applicants regarding why they were ranked highly or not ranked highly.

In a more free residency placement system, we might even see such unheard-of things as programs paying the travel costs of the applicants, or (gasp!) offering their top applicants special deals or signing bonuses.

Although I, too, am very concerned about the financial status of academic medicine, I can't help but conclude that the current matching system is, purposefully or not, responsible for the low salary and poor working conditions of most medical residents.
 
Klebs,

Precisely. Certain dorks on this forum with myopic visions fail to see the lost years spent toiling for nothing in the current residency pay structure as adversely affecting them financially in the future. In the long run, the lost opportunity of making $36K/year can mount to millions if we take into account savings that are not being made and invested wisely. It's called compounding interests people. How do you think Buffett makes his money?

I tell ya, doctors are the dumbest bunch when it comes to money. Shying away from financial issues just because you're supposedly in the "privileged" and "honored" field of medicine is ludicrous. Financial "advisors" prey on doctors precisely because they're too damned busy and too stupid. I'm continually amazed by the doe-eyed view of some of these posters.

Peace out.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Klebsiella:
•Dr Russo,

Interesting post. One thing your calculations don't take into account (I believe) are the vast number of years that we are unable to save for retirement vis a vis 401k type savings plans. When you factor that into the equation, we are being robbed blind. We are all losing literally millions of dollars more in retirement savings than your average attorney. They are able to save more, at a much earlier time in their life. This results in a phenomenal dollar figure that often keeps me up at night.

Unfortunately business 101 isn't a prerequisite to med school. It damn well ought to be.•••••Law firms typically have abyssmal retirement plans. Because they are partnerships and not corporations, every dollar in an associate's retirement plan is one less dollar in the partners' pocket. I worked as an associate at a law firm for 3 years. I wasn't even allowed to put my own money in the 401K for the first 15 months. After that, my firm matched 1 dollar for every 4 I put in, but I wasn't vested for another 5 years after that (meaning I lost the employer contribution). It sucked. Now lawyers that work for corporations usually get great retirement, but are paid substantially less.

Of course, "something" is better than "nothing".

Ed
 
I agree with what lilycat is saying in that better hours and pay for residents is possible to obtain without trashing the NRMP. The chaos of finding a residency without the match would be amazing. Weaker residencies would make quick offers as early as possible to try to grab better residents. Then after Jo Smo signs a contract at a private hospital in North Dakota for radiology he'll get an offer from UCSD. It happens all the time in fellowships. I was discussing with an attending the recent change of radiology fellowship applications to a match system (Neuro and IR). He said that places were interviewing earlier and earlier and offering spots to try to grab applicants before they had seen better places. Many people were stuck in that exact situation of going someplace they aren't as happy with and then getting interview offers from much better programs.
 
Gotta agree there is a stream of sophomoric thinking on this thread.

Just a couple of scenarios: Competition is needed to determine "market value"... we have that now with the AMGs versus the IMGs, and believe me IMGs will jump through hoops to get those rejected opportunities, so tell me how this "given" is going to play out in the open market, especially if hospitals are only concerned with the bottom line $$$. Who has the advantage? Certainly not the AMGs. And the last time I checked more and more IMGS are heading this way. To them 35/40K is more than enough. Long hours are a way of life for them. How are we as a united front going to deal with this situation?

I for one know there are programs out there that don't, yes I said don't, require 80/100 hours and they pay better than most. For instance the program I finally selected and was my first choice for these very reasons, I am on a Q6,yes a Q6, and I am compensated $18.41( my hourly wage) and it's surgery. So while everyone is going for the "big" name, the university programs, the renown Attending, so on... other programs are getting the good candidates by addressing these issues. So maybe some of you need a change of attitude and support the medical community which has all ready made intelligent changes. Could they do more? Probably? And yes I definitely think we are taken advantage of and will continue to until we consider other choices that are out there making it happen without some law suit to point out the obvious.
Basically, the hospitals need better management and some serious priority choices in their budget. Another hospital closed in our area just this week, 9mil in debt and owned 7mil. you call that smart math!!!
 
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