NRMP match algorithm foolproof?

[lightningcrash]

so apparently after the match programs get a list of where all the candidates they ranked matched. I have a friend in one program who had access to their list. the last candidate that matched to them was ranked 41st on their list. I was ranked number 30 and i did not get matched. if the explanation of the algorithm on the nrmp site is correct, how could i have gone unmatched? also, there were quite a few people who were ranked higher than me who were also unmatched (not clear if they got finally secured a position after SOAP). if the algorithm was working correctly, then those people should have also matched somewhere. i ranked their program number three, but that couldn't be a factor right? unless the NRMP has been deceiving us all along with their so called algorithm.

I know i can still apply again next year, but with what has just been told to me, i have become very hesitant. i am so confused right now. do i have a point here or am i simply missing something?

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[Adam638]

Your friend is probably looking at a non-finalized list or lying to you.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your friend is probably looking at a non-finalized list or lying to you.

This. You were ranked below that other person at that program or else you somehow failed to submit a rank list containing that program. Most likely your friend didn't really have an accurate ranking list though -- few ranking committees share this info.

 

[neurosurg777]

I'm curious about this too. I just don't understand how someone can rank 9 contiguous programs and not match. I called my number two place and while they didn't tell me what number I was, the PC said they just filled before they got to me. I asked if I even stood a chance, a good chance and she said yes. So in my mind if they had 8 spots i had to have been around the 8-10 mark.

I still don't get why we can't know what number we were ranked. Why not allow someone to call a program and let them find out where on their list they were ranked and allow them to also give advice on how they did and what they can do to improve. I see it helping in two ways. One, that helps an applicant find out what programs really thought about them and gives him/her a chance to improve and two, it gives insight into what programs are doing. For example, my theory is that while I know I did well on my interviews, definitely better than the people that were there on the same day as me, others were ranked higher based on school recognition, scores or history with the program, etc. This is the only reason why I think we can't know because then we may be able to see programs for what they really are and end up causing a lot of trouble for the system. Then again maybe that is whats needed, a little shaking up so that hard working, talented, intelligent people don't lose out on their dreams

 

[alwaysaangel]

I'm curious about this too. I just don't understand how someone can rank 9 contiguous programs and not match. I called my number two place and while they didn't tell me what number I was, the PC said they just filled before they got to me. I asked if I even stood a chance, a good chance and she said yes. So in my mind if they had 8 spots i had to have been around the 8-10 mark.

Or it could be they went to about #20 to rank 8 spots and you were #30. Its hard for programs to predict how far down on their list they will go. I am sorry for your predicament though.

I still don't get why we can't know what number we were ranked. Why not allow someone to call a program and let them find out where on their list they were ranked and allow them to also give advice on how they did and what they can do to improve. I see it helping in two ways. One, that helps an applicant find out what programs really thought about them and gives him/her a chance to improve and two, it gives insight into what programs are doing. For example, my theory is that while I know I did well on my interviews, definitely better than the people that were there on the same day as me, others were ranked higher based on school recognition, scores or history with the program, etc. This is the only reason why I think we can't know because then we may be able to see programs for what they really are and end up causing a lot of trouble for the system. Then again maybe that is whats needed, a little shaking up so that hard working, talented, intelligent people don't lose out on their dreams

You can call a program and ask for feedback if you wish - you likely won't get it. Not because of some nefarious scheme where they're out to get you. But because program directors are usually also either associate or full time professors. So in addition to their program director duties (prepping the new interns, teaching the current residents, planning next years interviews, evaluating and meeting with current residents, etc, etc) they also have clinical shifts, research and other duties. They don't have time to sit on the phone and explain to applicants why they ranked them where they did. It is the job of the dean of your med school to give you advice on how you look on paper, how you are interviewing, etc - not the job of program directors.

Again, I'm sorry you are in the situation you are in and I wish you the best of luck but stop blaming the system and look at yourself. How do you really look on paper? How did you really interview. In my experience the people who are so sure that they interviewed "definitely better than the people that were there on the same day as me" are either cocky, overbearing or have some other personality flaw that turns people off.

 

[neurosurg777]

Or it could be they went to about #20 to rank 8 spots and you were #30. Its hard for programs to predict how far down on their list they will go. I am sorry for your predicament though.

This could be possible, I was only guessing since all she told me was that I stood a good chance. Thank you, I appreciate it.

You can call a program and ask for feedback if you wish - you likely won't get it. Not because of some nefarious scheme where they're out to get you. But because program directors are usually also either associate or full time professors. So in addition to their program director duties (prepping the new interns, teaching the current residents, planning next years interviews, evaluating and meeting with current residents, etc, etc) they also have clinical shifts, research and other duties. They don't have time to sit on the phone and explain to applicants why they ranked them where they did. It is the job of the dean of your med school to give you advice on how you look on paper, how you are interviewing, etc - not the job of program directors.

I didn't think I wasn't getting feedback because of a nefarious scheme, just thought it was due to them being way too busy to care but that if some time was taken it could help people out. I wish I had that option but unfortunately my school doesn't provide that service. They were the first people I called to see if they could do that. It of course makes more sense for the Dean to do that which is why I called my school but what do people who don't have that option do? What would you do if a PD said specifically that they were making note of your name and based on LOR's, people calling etc. was going to look at you prior to ranking in order to help you match? Would you call her and ask what happened?

Again, I'm sorry you are in the situation you are in and I wish you the best of luck but stop blaming the system and look at yourself. How do you really look on paper? How did you really interview. In my experience the people who are so sure that they interviewed "definitely better than the people that were there on the same day as me" are either cocky, overbearing or have some other personality flaw that turns people off.

Thank you for your sympathy. I'm not blaming the system, I am trying to look at myself but it's hard when you can't get feedback so that you know what needs improvement. You can't just guess and hope you get it right. That is why I think being able to know where you were ranked and programs telling you what you can do to improve would be beneficial. On paper I'm not all that impressive but ok enough to get 12 interviews. I actually do much better in person. I interviewed, at least based on feedback from people in the program, really well and I'm not saying that to be cocky. I am going based on their reactions and statements, not my opinion. I am no where near cocky, overbearing, etc. and 99% of the time people love me. I am generally described by everyone that I meet as warm, kind, down to earth and easy to get along with. The only flaw I can see and that really depends on who you are is that I am sociable and talkative. Some people love that while others hate people who talk too much but I made sure to not overdue it on my interviews and even made light of myself. I rarely turn people off. In fact quite the opposite. My whole life I have actually had people tell me their life stories within five minutes of meeting me and always end up saying "I don't know why but you just make me feel comfortable, like I've known you forever and can tell you anything". I even remember during my rotations that all the IM residents that I worked with knew that I was contemplating surgery (not anymore) and each one always said that's cool but you don't have the personality for it, your too nice. So I don't know what to tell you. Based on my life experiences it's hard for me to think of myself as cocky. I'm sure all of this is going to sound cocky to you but I don't know how else to show you that I'm really not cocky and in general I'm just a down to earth, hard working, loving, and caring guy that is trying to make some sense out of all of this.

The reason I say that I did better than others is because of the responses I got from other applicants like you seem so relaxed in addition to comparing what interviewers said about me vs. the other applicants when we got together after the day was over and compared notes and experiences (assuming of course that the other applicants were telling the truth about how their interview went and the type of things that were said to them).

 

[b-real]

This could be possible, I was only guessing since all she told me was that I stood a good chance. Thank you, I appreciate it.




I didn't think I wasn't getting feedback because of a nefarious scheme, just thought it was due to them being way too busy to care but that if some time was taken it could help people out. I wish I had that option but unfortunately my school doesn't provide that service. They were the first people I called to see if they could do that. It of course makes more sense for the Dean to do that which is why I called my school but what do people who don't have that option do? What would you do if a PD said specifically that they were making note of your name and based on LOR's, people calling etc. was going to look at you prior to ranking in order to help you match? Would you call her and ask what happened?



Thank you for your sympathy. I'm not blaming the system, I am trying to look at myself but it's hard when you can't get feedback so that you know what needs improvement. You can't just guess and hope you get it right. That is why I think being able to know where you were ranked and programs telling you what you can do to improve would be beneficial. On paper I'm not all that impressive but ok enough to get 12 interviews. I actually do much better in person. I interviewed, at least based on feedback from people in the program, really well and I'm not saying that to be cocky. I am going based on their reactions and statements, not my opinion. I am no where near cocky, overbearing, etc. and 99% of the time people love me. I am generally described by everyone that I meet as warm, kind, down to earth and easy to get along with. The only flaw I can see and that really depends on who you are is that I am sociable and talkative. Some people love that while others hate people who talk too much but I made sure to not overdue it on my interviews and even made light of myself. I rarely turn people off. In fact quite the opposite. My whole life I have actually had people tell me their life stories within five minutes of meeting me and always end up saying "I don't know why but you just make me feel comfortable, like I've known you forever and can tell you anything". I even remember during my rotations that all the IM residents that I worked with knew that I was contemplating surgery (not anymore) and each one always said that's cool but you don't have the personality for it, your too nice. So I don't know what to tell you. Based on my life experiences it's hard for me to think of myself as cocky. I'm sure all of this is going to sound cocky to you but I don't know how else to show you that I'm really not cocky and in general I'm just a down to earth, hard working, loving, and caring guy that is trying to make some sense out of all of this.

The reason I say that I did better than others is because of the responses I got from other applicants like you seem so relaxed in addition to comparing what interviewers said about me vs. the other applicants when we got together after the day was over and compared notes and experiences (assuming of course that the other applicants were telling the truth about how their interview went and the type of things that were said to them).

I'm sorry, but it's you. On paper, you're a qualified enough applicant for many programs to invite you to interview. However, the fact that you failed to matched shows that either you sent up a red flag during the interview or you didn't wow them enough to make it high enough on their lists to match. Also, you got 12 interviews, but it seems you only ranked 9 places ("I just don't understand how someone can rank 9 contiguous programs and not match"). Again, your fault for either not ranking all places you interviewed or declining offers.

 

[neurosurg777]

I'm sorry, but it's you. On paper, you're a qualified enough applicant for many programs to invite you to interview. However, the fact that you failed to matched shows that either you sent up a red flag during the interview or you didn't wow them enough to make it high enough on their lists to match. Also, you got 12 interviews, but it seems you only ranked 9 places ("I just don't understand how someone can rank 9 contiguous programs and not match"). Again, your fault for either not ranking all places you interviewed or declining offers.

If you say so, what can I say. If it's me then why would people on my interview say things like you would make a good fit here, let me know if your interested because I think you would do well here, you are one of the brighter candidates, etc. I even overheard a group of my interviewers when they didn't realize I was able to hear them say " I could talk to him all day". So after many comments like that and more that basically sounded like good feedback I guess according to you I didn't wow them enough. Could it be other factors like school, or scores that would land me lower on a list rather than me not wowing them? Your entitled to your opinion but everyone who knows me would disagree with you so it's hard for me to believe it.

Yeah that is definitely my fault. I should have gone to those last three but after a long and stressful year, money becoming an issue and thinking I was doing well I decided to stop. Obviously hind sight is twenty twenty and knowing now what I know I would never do that again but at the time I made the best possible decision based on several factors. I am paying for it now because I will never know if those three would have made a difference or not but that was my fault, I have to live with it and learn from the experience. That still doesn't take away from the other 9 programs and my experience.

You didn't answer my other question. What would you do if the PD was going to personally help you? Would you call and ask what happened?

 

[b-real]

If you say so, what can I say. If it's me then why would people on my interview say things like you would make a good fit here, let me know if your interested because I think you would do well here, you are one of the brighter candidates, etc. I even overheard a group of my interviewers when they didn't realize I was able to hear them say " I could talk to him all day". So after many comments like that and more that basically sounded like good feedback I guess according to you I didn't wow them enough. Could it be other factors like school, or scores that would land me lower on a list rather than me not wowing them? Your entitled to your opinion but everyone who knows me would disagree with you so it's hard for me to believe it.

Yeah that is definitely my fault. I should have gone to those last three but after a long and stressful year, money becoming an issue and thinking I was doing well I decided to stop. Obviously hind sight is twenty twenty and knowing now what I know I would never do that again but at the time I made the best possible decision based on several factors. I am paying for it now because I will never know if those three would have made a difference or not but that was my fault, I have to live with it and learn from the experience. That still doesn't take away from the other 9 programs and my experience.

You didn't answer my other question. What would you do if the PD was going to personally help you? Would you call and ask what happened?

You're right, I don't know you, but at least on this forum, you come across as full of yourself. And to answer your other question, I would not call the PD and ask why they didn't pull for me enough. The PD basically has full control over the final rank list, so he either didn't want you there or put you somewhere on the list where he thought you would have matched. Asking what went wrong won't change the outcome and will do little good, because the answer you'll get is the standard "this was a really competitive year..." answer.

 

[deleted103644]

If you say so, what can I say. If it's me then why would people on my interview say things like you would make a good fit here, let me know if your interested because I think you would do well here, you are one of the brighter candidates, etc. I even overheard a group of my interviewers when they didn't realize I was able to hear them say " I could talk to him all day". So after many comments like that and more that basically sounded like good feedback I guess according to you I didn't wow them enough.

It sounds like you also became a bit cocky. Don't underestimate the degree to which other people can pick up on that, or how much it can hurt you.

Could it be other factors like school, or scores that would land me lower on a list rather than me not wowing them? Your entitled to your opinion but everyone who knows me would disagree with you so it's hard for me to believe it.

With a few exceptions, interviews are mainly there to hurt, not help your application. Only true superstars get bumped up on a rank list due to their interview, and even then it isn't nearly as positive as it can be negative for a bad interview. Yes, your scores/school/etc still mattered for ranking. Or you came across as a dick but didn't realize it.

Yeah that is definitely my fault. I should have gone to those last three but after a long and stressful year, money becoming an issue and thinking I was doing well I decided to stop. Obviously hind sight is twenty twenty and knowing now what I know I would never do that again but at the time I made the best possible decision based on several factors. I am paying for it now because I will never know if those three would have made a difference or not but that was my fault, I have to live with it and learn from the experience. That still doesn't take away from the other 9 programs and my experience.

You were poorly advised. I went on 20 interviews and matched at my #2, I don't regret it. I'm assuming you were applying into neurosurgery, so you certainly should NOT have felt comfortable after 9 interviews - even my competitive friends going into IM would usually aim for >10 (although some of that is just shopping around). The extra cost is worth it considering the risk of the much larger financial impact you're now going to face (both a likely year of lost income + decreased income potential due to a likely less competitive residency).

You didn't answer my other question. What would you do if the PD was going to personally help you? Would you call and ask what happened?

The PD's going to help you? Not sure what exactly you're talking about, but sure, get any help you can. The PD probably won't give you any more information than "we ranked you highly, but matched higher than we were expecting."

 

[neurosurg777]

You're right, I don't know you, but at least on this forum, you come across as full of yourself. And to answer your other question, I would not call the PD and ask why they didn't pull for me enough. The PD basically has full control over the final rank list, so he either didn't want you there or put you somewhere on the list where he thought you would have matched. Asking what went wrong won't change the outcome and will do little good, because the answer you'll get is the standard "this was a really competitive year..." answer.

Well of course I do because I am talking about myself. I of course don't act that way in real life but there was no other way I could think of to show that my interviews went well and I wasn't cocky without giving examples which of course is always going to sound cocky when you start talking about yourself especially on a board. It's kinda hard to relay a message of humility and humbleness to a forum of people reading about you when the main question is about you and your personality. If you say your nice people will say I'm sure you are but you sound like a dick on here. Only in true conversation and interaction can you tell if someone really is cocky or down to earth. Try having a regular conversation with me and then tell me if you feel the same. In real life I am constantly told that I doubt myself too much and that i should be more confident so if you take what I am saying as other people saying it then it won't come off as cocky. For example when I tell you all this you think I am being cocky but imagine instead a friend of yours telling you about someone they just met and using some of the examples I gave about myself. What would you say then? I'm pretty sure you would probably say something like Oh, sounds like a nice guy or at least I would if I heard stories like these about someone else from a friend.

It's this part that has me thinking "so he either didn't want you there or put you somewhere on the list where he thought you would have matched". If they didn't rank me that makes sense but if they put on the list at a point where they thought I would have matched then I should have because I ranked them number 1.

The hard part is dealing with family because they keep on wanting me to call and ask what happened and I just can't seem to get them to understand why that would be a bad idea. In their mind it's like being strong, showing initiative, and going after the job. Why would that be a bad thing they say, why would that be annoying and I keep on telling them why but it just doesn't make sense to a bunch of successful business people from diverse backgrounds.

 

[b-real]

Well of course I do because I am talking about myself. I of course don't act that way in real life but there was no other way I could think of to show that my interviews went well and I wasn't cocky without giving examples which of course is always going to sound cocky when you start talking about yourself especially on a board. It's kinda hard to relay a message of humility and humbleness to a forum of people reading about you when the main question is about you and your personality. If you say your nice people will say I'm sure you are but you sound like a dick on here. Only in true conversation and interaction can you tell if someone really is cocky or down to earth. Try having a regular conversation with me and then tell me if you feel the same. In real life I am constantly told that I doubt myself too much and that i should be more confident so if you take what I am saying as other people saying it then it won't come off as cocky. For example when I tell you all this you think I am being cocky but imagine instead a friend of yours telling you about someone they just met and using some of the examples I gave about myself. What would you say then? I'm pretty sure you would probably say something like Oh, sounds like a nice guy or at least I would if I heard stories like these about someone else from a friend.

It's this part that has me thinking "so he either didn't want you there or put you somewhere on the list where he thought you would have matched". If they didn't rank me that makes sense but if they put on the list at a point where they thought I would have matched then I should have because I ranked them number 1.

The hard part is dealing with family because they keep on wanting me to call and ask what happened and I just can't seem to get them to understand why that would be a bad idea. In their mind it's like being strong, showing initiative, and going after the job. Why would that be a bad thing they say, why would that be annoying and I keep on telling them why but it just doesn't make sense to a bunch of successful business people from diverse backgrounds.

Not necessarily. Example: you ranked them number 1, they ranked you 25. Let's say that for the past 10 years they've gone down to 30 on their list to fill the class. This year, they were more popular for whatever reason, and they only went down to 20. So in this example, they wanted you, but they preferred 24 other people. Program's can't see where you ranked them, and so the fact that you ranked them #1 has no bearing on the way the algorithm works.

 

[neurosurg777]

It sounds like you also became a bit cocky. Don't underestimate the degree to which other people can pick up on that, or how much it can hurt you.

I guess, I just can't see it based on the kinds of responses and attitude I got during my interviews but I don't want to go into it any further because then I am just going to be told I am being cocky. Thanks for your advice too. I will take it into consideration and try and be aware of the fact that I may be coming off as cocky and not realizing it and try and improve on it.

With a few exceptions, interviews are mainly there to hurt, not help your application. Only true superstars get bumped up on a rank list due to their interview, and even then it isn't nearly as positive as it can be negative for a bad interview. Yes, your scores/school/etc still mattered for ranking. Or you came across as a dick but didn't realize it.

Yeah, that's what I've heard before. I definitely don't think I came off as a dick because it's not in me to be one. Never have been able to be. That's why people usually say I'm too nice, because even when I should be a dick I am still the nice guy trying to help in the face of someone who doesn't deserve it. Of course I'm not talking about patients. I meant friends, family, etc., with patients no matter what I am always nice and as accommodating as possible. Patients always come first.

You were poorly advised. I went on 20 interviews and matched at my #2, I don't regret it. I'm assuming you were applying into neurosurgery, so you certainly should NOT have felt comfortable after 9 interviews - even my competitive friends going into IM would usually aim for >10 (although some of that is just shopping around). The extra cost is worth it considering the risk of the much larger financial impact you're now going to face (both a likely year of lost income + decreased income potential due to a likely less competitive residency).

No I actually applied to FP. The screen name is just old, i had created it a long time ago when I was volunteering with a neurosurgeon and that's what came to mind at that moment. Yeah I realize that now and have to learn from my mistake.

The PD's going to help you? Not sure what exactly you're talking about, but sure, get any help you can. The PD probably won't give you any more information than "we ranked you highly, but matched higher than we were expecting."

I didn't want to get into the whole story but through another staff physician at the hospital, that wrote me a LOR for the program, also called and spoke with the PD about me and he basically said they were very receptive to considering me and in turn the PD asked if the residents could do a rotation with him and he of course obliged.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the help and advice. I don't want to make this whole thread about me and I definitely wasn't trying to threadjack it. So please lets just get back to the OP's original question. Thanks

 

[neurosurg777]

Not necessarily. Example: you ranked them number 1, they ranked you 25. Let's say that for the past 10 years they've gone down to 30 on their list to fill the class. This year, they were more popular for whatever reason, and they only went down to 20. So in this example, they wanted you, but they preferred 24 other people. Program's can't see where you ranked them, and so the fact that you ranked them #1 has no bearing on the way the algorithm works.

Yeah that makes sense and could possibly be what happened. Thanks.

 

[lightningcrash]

Your friend is probably looking at a non-finalized list or lying to you.

it's a finalized list, he checked it the same time last week with the program director and associate program director. it's the same list that he saw 2 weeks prior to the match and nothing has changed. he's the chief resident of the program and in his program at least, the chief resident is part of the selection committee. he's also one of my closest friends, he wouldn't lie to me about this. i actually knew what rank i was way before the match, but of course he told me to keep this to myself because no one is allowed to divulge such information.

the program director was also wondering why i did not match to the program, then he told my friend that it's probably because i didn't rank them number one on my list. but if that's the case, that would be contradictory to the matching process described at the nrmp site.

 

[lightningcrash]

Not necessarily. Example: you ranked them number 1, they ranked you 25. Let's say that for the past 10 years they've gone down to 30 on their list to fill the class. This year, they were more popular for whatever reason, and they only went down to 20. So in this example, they wanted you, but they preferred 24 other people. Program's can't see where you ranked them, and so the fact that you ranked them #1 has no bearing on the way the algorithm works.

this still wouldn't explain what happened to me. the last person that matched to their program was 41st on their list, while i was ranked number 30. i along with several other people were skipped for some reason. either the algorithm is faulty or the way they explained how the algorithm works is complete BS. if it's the first case, then a complete overhaul of the algorithm should be done. but it would be difficult to prove it because programs aren't allowed to divulge such info in the first place.

 

[b-real]

this still wouldn't explain what happened to me. the last person that matched to their program was 41st on their list, while i was ranked number 30. i along with several other people were skipped for some reason. either the algorithm is faulty or the way they explained how the algorithm works is complete BS. if it's the first case, then a complete overhaul of the algorithm should be done. but it would be difficult to prove it because programs aren't allowed to divulge such info in the first place.

The more likely reason is that your friend is lying to you about your position on the list. Without seeing the list, you can't rule that out 100%, no matter how tight you guys are.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

@LightingCrash:

If what you describe is true (you ranked the program high and they ranked you above their "last match") then you are correct that this is impossible, and would be a failure of the match process. It could happen if you were couples matching (depending on how you built your rank list, if your partner didn't match then you might not match either). Otherwise, it can't happen.

So, either the match completely failed, or something in your story is incorrect -- either the program's match list is not as described, or you did something wrong with your rank list.

I can tell you that I contacted every person who didn't match at my program but was above my last match, to see if they had any feedback for me. No one said "Hey, how come I didn't match with you?". Nor have we heard wisespread stories about problems like this. I'm guessing you didn't screw up your rank list, and you didn't mention couple's matching. If all that is true, the likely conclusion is that whatever you were told you were ranked was untrue (or that the last match was above your reported rank).

@Neurosurg777:

I went back through your old posts. If I'm reading them correctly, you are a carib grad with low step scores. You applied in the match to IM and GS last year to over 150 programs, and didn't get a single interview. Applied in the scramble, I don't know if you were successful or not. This year you applied to FM, and got 12 interview offers, went on 9 interviews. Didn't match.

So, with that:

It's very common that people who don't match at a program want to know why, want to know how they can improve. And, honestly, it comes down to two things: your application and your interview. The weight of the interview will vary based upon field and program. When a field is very competitive and everyone has >260 board scores and Honors clinical grades, they become meaningless. A 270 isn't really any better than a 260. So, the interview becomes more important. In other fields where there is a bigger spread of the applicant quality, then your application becomes a dominant factor -- if I have one applicant who is at the top of their class but has a boring personality, vs someone with a great personality but who is near the bottom of their class, I'm likely to rank the first person much higher.

So, what can you do to make your application better? The problem is that the answer is nothing. Not going to a carib school, scoring better on the steps, getting better clinical grades -- but these are all done, and you can't do them again. More US clinical rotations would help, but that's a Catch-22 -- you can't do rotations unless you're a resident, and you'll have difficulty getting a residency spot without more clinical rotations.

The phrase "We'd love to have you in our program" doesn't mean anything. I say that to everyone who interviews with us. I want the last matched person to feel just as special as my top match.

So, advice:
You have now gone two matches without finding a program. This is not good. Your chances of finding a spot drop each cycle, as you get farther from your clinical experiences and people start to worry that your skills are atrophying. So, next cycle you must apply to even more programs. You should expect a lower interview/application rate. You will go on every interview. You should seriously consider ranking every program that interviews you. If you don't match again, you need a Plan C. (This is Plan B, you've already exhausted Plan A)

 

[mamagir]

Here is a little story of mine which I am not sure means anything but also got me thinking about whether the match algorithm is foolproof. I got a request from my number three program(I matched at number 5) to give them feedback, and the message said congrats on matching, so I am guessing they must have ranked me to be aware of my match status. The survey also had a question about the reason why I ranked the programs I ranked higher than their theirs. Does this mean they think I matched to a program higher on my list than theirs which is absolutely not the case. Unfortunately there was no opportunity for open ended answers or I could have told them, hey how come I didn't match with you?
What do you guys think? Or am I reading too much into the survey? Is it just generic?

 

[DrBowtie]

this still wouldn't explain what happened to me. the last person that matched to their program was 41st on their list, while i was ranked number 30. i along with several other people were skipped for some reason. either the algorithm is faulty or the way they explained how the algorithm works is complete BS. if it's the first case, then a complete overhaul of the algorithm should be done. but it would be difficult to prove it because programs aren't allowed to divulge such info in the first place.

If your friend and the PD are really serious about it, they can ask the NRMP for an inquiry. I believe it was a situation like this that launched the urology match investigation and eventual rematching.

Unfortunately, it would probably only be taken seriously if both you and the PD were on the same page about investigating the situation. I'm guessing the PD is fine with just moving on.

 

[jcu]

Here is a little story of mine which I am not sure means anything but also got me thinking about whether the match algorithm is foolproof. I got a request from my number three program(I matched at number 5) to give them feedback, and the message said congrats on matching, so I am guessing they must have ranked me to be aware of my match status. The survey also had a question about the reason why I ranked the programs I ranked higher than their theirs. Does this mean they think I matched to a program higher on my list than theirs which is absolutely not the case. Unfortunately there was no opportunity for open ended answers or I could have told them, hey how come I didn't match with you?
What do you guys think? Or am I reading too much into the survey? Is it just generic?

Yes. It is a generic question on pretty much every post match survey. Sorry.

 

[neurosurg777]

@Neurosurg777:

I went back through your old posts. If I'm reading them correctly, you are a carib grad with low step scores. You applied in the match to IM and GS last year to over 150 programs, and didn't get a single interview. Applied in the scramble, I don't know if you were successful or not. This year you applied to FM, and got 12 interview offers, went on 9 interviews. Didn't match.

Hey aprog, thanks for taking the time to look into things and remember me. Unfortunately I haven't been able to have any luck in any scramble, don't really know why. The first year I think it was because of the web crash since it was just me and I didn't have any Dean or anybody else calling for me or helping so by the time I called places randomly which was pointless and then got the unfilled list to call programs it was too late. This year with the SOAP the way its set up like you said it gives programs a chance to be more selective and so that ended up going poorly as well. You are correct. I should have gone to all 12 but at that time I made a decision based on many factors including financial and a PD pushing for me so I thought I stood a chance. Obviously it didn't work out that way and now I know not to trust anyone no matter how much they say they are going to help and to only be certain if things are in writing.

It's very common that people who don't match at a program want to know why, want to know how they can improve. And, honestly, it comes down to two things: your application and your interview. The weight of the interview will vary based upon field and program. When a field is very competitive and everyone has >260 board scores and Honors clinical grades, they become meaningless. A 270 isn't really any better than a 260. So, the interview becomes more important. In other fields where there is a bigger spread of the applicant quality, then your application becomes a dominant factor -- if I have one applicant who is at the top of their class but has a boring personality, vs someone with a great personality but who is near the bottom of their class, I'm likely to rank the first person much higher.

This is why I think its more my application rather than my interview. Please elaborate as to why the one with the scores is ranked higher than the latter. I understand the importance of exams but it was my impression that once your passed the initial stages then the interview becomes more important because at that point the program knows your score and everyone else' and they want to know who will make a good fit. How can a number on an exam make a better fit than a person with the type of personality they are looking for.

So, what can you do to make your application better? The problem is that the answer is nothing. Not going to a carib school, scoring better on the steps, getting better clinical grades -- but these are all done, and you can't do them again. More US clinical rotations would help, but that's a Catch-22 -- you can't do rotations unless you're a resident, and you'll have difficulty getting a residency spot without more clinical rotations.

I honored all my rotations and knowing that while I had this last year off I needed to do things to show that my skills aren't atrophying I started research with a major teaching hospital as well as an externship in a private FP clinic. I think these two things helped me get my interviews this year. The problem is I don't know if more of the same would help. What else can you recommend that I do? Would becoming a paramedic this year help at all? What type of position should I be looking for? I would love to do more rotations but like you said its a catch 22 and I wouldn't know what my options would be.

The phrase "We'd love to have you in our program" doesn't mean anything. I say that to everyone who interviews with us. I want the last matched person to feel just as special as my top match.

I realize that which is why I took them with a grain of salt but some of the other things that were said were a lot more specific in the way of me being matched so I took them more seriously. Maybe, I was naive. Being a PD yourself if you told someone (a colleague) that you were going to pull for them (the applicant) to get in would that be close to a guarantee? Would a situation like that then be ok for me to call and express my disappointment in not matching, ask what I did well and what I did poorly and ask what I can do to be a better applicant?

Thanks for all your advise, I really appreciate it.

 

[Kongakut]

the last candidate that matched to them was ranked 41st on their list. I was ranked number 30 and i did not get matched. if the explanation of the algorithm on the nrmp site is correct, how could i have gone unmatched?... i ranked their program number three, but that couldn't be a factor right? unless the NRMP has been deceiving us all along with their so called algorithm.

If that list you saw was the real thing, according to the match algorithm, the last candidate you mentioned (who was ranked 41st) ranked that program 1st or 2nd, that is why that person matched. If that candidate had ranked the program 3rd, the same rank you did, then you would have matched before them. The way you rank absolutely is a factor. The match favors the applicant.

For example, let's just say you ranked that program 1st (it's easier to explain). The match takes the candidate's first rank choice and repeatedly tries to match you to that program. The only way you get bumped off your 1st ranked program's final match list is if all the other candidates ranked that program 1st too AND the program ranked you beyond the number of spots they had ... Again, this scenario is only if you ranked that program #1. In other words, If you rank a program #1, and no one else (who is on the program's rank list) ranks that program #1, you could be ranked #150 by the program and you would still match there.

Since you ranked them third, then all the other candidates that matched EITHER ranked that program 1st or 2nd OR, if the candidate ranked them third, like you, the candidates that matched were ranked higher than you by the program. The only time the program preference comes into play, is when there is a tie in how the candidates ranked that program, (i.e you both ranked the program 3rd), then the program rank list decides which of the two of you (or however many candidates ranked that program 3rd) matches by whomever is ranked higher.

 

[b-real]

If that list you saw was the real thing, according to the match algorithm, the last candidate you mentioned (who was ranked 41st) ranked that program 1st or 2nd, that is why that person matched. If that candidate had ranked the program 3rd, the same rank you did, then you would have matched before them. The way you rank absolutely is a factor. The match favors the applicant.

For example, let's just say you ranked that program 1st (it's easier to explain). The match takes the candidate's first rank choice and repeatedly tries to match you to that program. The only way you get bumped off your 1st ranked program's final match list is if all the other candidates ranked that program 1st too AND the program ranked you beyond the number of spots they had ... Again, this scenario is only if you ranked that program #1. In other words, If you rank a program #1, and no one else (who is on the program's rank list) ranks that program #1, you could be ranked #150 by the program and you would still match there.

Since you ranked them third, then all the other candidates that matched EITHER ranked that program 1st or 2nd OR, if the candidate ranked them third, like you, the candidates that matched were ranked higher than you by the program. The only time the program preference comes into play, is when there is a tie in how the candidates ranked that program, (i.e you both ranked the program 3rd), then the program rank list decides which of the two of you (or however many candidates ranked that program 3rd) matches by whomever is ranked higher.

This is absolutely NOT TRUE and represents a common misunderstanding about the algorithm. In your scenario, the applicant ranks a program #1 and the program ranks the applicant #150. The algorithm will try to match the 149 on the program's list above the applicant, no matter how low other applicants ranked the program. Say applicant A ranks the program #1 and applicant B ranks the program #4. The program has 5 positions and ranks applicant A #7 and applicant B #6. If the program goes down to 6 on their rank list, applicant B will match, even though applicant A ranked the program higher, assuming applicant B did not match to his top 3 choices.

I think aProgDirector can explain this better but what you wrote is not how the match works.

 

[Kongakut]

Read the link above and work out the examples the NRMP gives. It IS TRUE. The match favors the applicant. If you rank a program #1, then the algorithm will continually tentatively match you to the program repetition after repetition until someone who also ranked that program #1 is ranked higher on the program's list. If NO OTHER person on their list ranks that program #1, then you will match into it as long as you are ranked at all by the program. No one can bump you if you rank the program higher than they do. If there is a tie, then the program's list matters. Read the LINK.

 

[b-real]

Read the link above and work out the examples the NRMP gives. It IS TRUE. The match favors the applicant. If you rank a program #1, then the algorithm will continually tentatively match you to the program repetition after repetition until someone who also ranked that program #1 is ranked higher on the program's list. If NO OTHER person on their list ranks that program #1, then you will match into it as long as you are ranked at all by the program. No one can bump you if you rank the program higher than they do. If there is a tie, then the program's list matters. Read the LINK.

You mean the link that states, "Matches are "tentative" because an applicant who is matched to a program at one point in the matching process may be removed from the program at some later point, to make room for an applicant more preferred by the program..."

 

[Kongakut]

This is absolutely NOT TRUE and represents a common misunderstanding about the algorithm. In your scenario, the applicant ranks a program #1 and the program ranks the applicant #150. The algorithm will try to match the 149 on the program's list above the applicant, no matter how low other applicants ranked the program. Say applicant A ranks the program #1 and applicant B ranks the program #4. The program has 5 positions and ranks applicant A #7 and applicant B #6. If the program goes down to 6 on their rank list, applicant B will match, even though applicant A ranked the program higher, assuming applicant B did not match to his top 3 choices.

I think aProgDirector can explain this better but what you wrote is not how the match works.

You are assuming that the algorithm starts with the program preference and it does not. It starts with the applicants preference. With the scenario you have above, then the algorithm would tentatively match app A to the program. The algorithm would then go through all the other applicants that ranked that program #1 and it would offer them tentative matches based on where they stood on the program's list (which I stated above - the only time the program list matters is during a tie). Then once all those tentative matches were placed, it then goes to all the candidates that ranked that program #2. It does tentative matches with all of those candidates in the spots that are left over and so on. By the time it gets to your applicant B, the algorithm has gone through every candidate that ranked the program 1, 2, and 3 and offered them tentative matches which are finalized if they fill up the spots. Candidates are matched into their most preferred spot.

If you still think I am wrong, then look at NRMP LINK ITSELF and look at the example:

*Garcia and *Eastman ranked City #1.
*Hansen ranked City #2.

City ranks *Garcia #1, *Hansen #2, and *Eastman #3.

*Garcia and *Eastman match into City even though *Hansen was ranked above *Eastman because the MATCH FAVORS THE APPLICANT and *Eastman and *Garcia ranked City #1.

Another example:
*Hansen ranks State #1 and *Eastman ranks State #3.

State ranks *Eastman #2 and *Hansen #5.

*Hansen MATCHES OVER *Eastman because *Hansen RANKED THEM FIRST even though *Eastman was three places ahead of him on the program's list.

 

[arielred]

You are assuming that the algorithm starts with the program preference and it does not. It starts with the applicants preference. With the scenario you have above, then the algorithm would tentatively match app A to the program. The algorithm would then go through all the other applicants that ranked that program #1 and it would offer them tentative matches based on where they stood on the program's list (which I stated above - the only time the program list matters is during a tie). Then once all those tentative matches were placed, it then goes to all the candidates that ranked that program #2. It does tentative matches with all of those candidates in the spots that are left over and so on. By the time it gets to your applicant B, the algorithm has gone through every candidate that ranked the program 1, 2, and 3 and offered them tentative matches which are finalized if they fill up the spots. Candidates are matched into their most preferred spot.

If you still think I am wrong, then look at NRMP LINK ITSELF and look at the example:

*Garcia and *Eastman ranked City #1.
*Hansen ranked City #2.

City ranks *Garcia #1, *Hansen #2, and *Eastman #3.

*Garcia and *Eastman match into City even though *Hansen was ranked above *Eastman because the MATCH FAVORS THE APPLICANT and *Eastman and *Garcia ranked City #1.

Another example:
*Hansen ranks State #1 and *Eastman ranks State #3.

State ranks *Eastman #2 and *Hansen #5.

*Hansen MATCHES OVER *Eastman because *Hansen RANKED THEM FIRST even though *Eastman was three places ahead of him on the program's list.

Yes but in your last example, Eastman didn't match over Hansen because Eastman matched to a program higher on his list than State (his 1 or 2). If his 1 and 2 hadn't taken him he would have matched over Hansen.

 

[Kongakut]

Yes but in your last example, Eastman didn't match over Hansen because Eastman matched to a program higher on his list than State (his 1 or 2). If his 1 and 2 hadn't taken him he would have matched over Hansen.

We can't assume that. If Eastman had not matched into his 1 or 2, then he would have bumped Ford out since State was Ford's 4th choice. Hansen would have remained matched at State as it was his first choice.

The point of the scenarios is to show that applicants get their more preferred choices. If the decision was up to the programs, then Eastman would have have matched into State instead of into City. Hansen would have matched into City instead of State. The point is that the applicants preference taken into account first which is why Eastman got his first choice even though Eastman was ranked higher than Hansen by State but Eastman got City instead where Eastman was ranked lower than Hansen. Conversely, Hansen got his first choice at State even though Eastman was ranked three places higher than him. Again, applicant preference is favored over program preference (unless there is a tie, which I have already stated).

If you take all the scenarios and work them out with the premise that applicants will get their most preferred spot unless there is a tie (then go by program preference) then you match exactly the algorithm example in the NRMP link.

 

[deleted103644]

We can't assume that. If Eastman had not matched into his 1 or 2, then he would have bumped Ford out since State was Ford's 4th choice. Hansen would have remained matched at State as it was his first choice.

The point of the scenarios is to show that applicants get their more preferred choices. If the decision was up to the programs, then Eastman would have have matched into State instead of into City. Hansen would have matched into City instead of State. The point is that the applicants preference taken into account first which is why Eastman got his first choice even though Eastman was ranked higher than Hansen by State but Eastman got City instead where Eastman was ranked lower than Hansen. Conversely, Hansen got his first choice at State even though Eastman was ranked three places higher than him. Again, applicant preference is favored over program preference (unless there is a tie, which I have already stated).

If you take all the scenarios and work them out with the premise that applicants will get their most preferred spot unless there is a tie (then go by program preference) then you match exactly the algorithm example in the NRMP link.

You're confused. When people get "bumped" out of a program for a tie, they get removed according to the program's preferences, not the candidates. You even say this yourself (ties are decided by the program) without really thinking about the implications.

If Program 1 ranks Applicant A #1, Applicant B #2, and Applicant C #3 for 2 spots and Applicants A & B both rank Program 1 last while Applicant C ranks Program 1 first, if Applicants A&B fall to the bottom of their rank lists they will still push Applicant C out of Program 1 since they are higher on the list.

You don't get more weight at a program for ranking it higher, you just get placed their first.

 

[deleted103644]

By your logic, every top program would only fill with people who ranked it #1 (since there are many more people ranking those programs #1 than there are spots). That is clearly not the case.

 

[Law2Doc]

Read the link above and work out the examples the NRMP gives. It IS TRUE. The match favors the applicant. If you rank a program #1, then the algorithm will continually tentatively match you to the program repetition after repetition until someone who also ranked that program #1 is ranked higher on the program's list. If NO OTHER person on their list ranks that program #1, then you will match into it as long as you are ranked at all by the program. No one can bump you if you rank the program higher than they do. If there is a tie, then the program's list matters. Read the LINK.

Sorry dude, but you are wrong.

 

[drizzt3117]

100% wrong. If the OP ranked that program at all he would've matched given the info he provided was true.

If that list you saw was the real thing, according to the match algorithm, the last candidate you mentioned (who was ranked 41st) ranked that program 1st or 2nd, that is why that person matched. If that candidate had ranked the program 3rd, the same rank you did, then you would have matched before them. The way you rank absolutely is a factor. The match favors the applicant.

For example, let's just say you ranked that program 1st (it's easier to explain). The match takes the candidate's first rank choice and repeatedly tries to match you to that program. The only way you get bumped off your 1st ranked program's final match list is if all the other candidates ranked that program 1st too AND the program ranked you beyond the number of spots they had ... Again, this scenario is only if you ranked that program #1. In other words, If you rank a program #1, and no one else (who is on the program's rank list) ranks that program #1, you could be ranked #150 by the program and you would still match there.

Since you ranked them third, then all the other candidates that matched EITHER ranked that program 1st or 2nd OR, if the candidate ranked them third, like you, the candidates that matched were ranked higher than you by the program. The only time the program preference comes into play, is when there is a tie in how the candidates ranked that program, (i.e you both ranked the program 3rd), then the program rank list decides which of the two of you (or however many candidates ranked that program 3rd) matches by whomever is ranked higher.

 

[Kongakut]

By your logic, every top program would only fill with people who ranked it #1 (since there are many more people ranking those programs #1 than there are spots). That is clearly not the case.

This is completely possible. It's a top program. Why wouldn't they get an entire list of people who ranked them number one? However, then, as I said, if there is a TIE (everyone ranks them #1), then the program preference will take precedence, so someone at the bottom of the list (regardless of ranking them number one) would NOT match there.

Why do you think most people get their top three picks? Why does the match favor the applicant? By your reasoning in the other post, it's just to put the person in a tentative place before someone else? Why is that in any way beneficial to a candidate to put their preferred program first if they are just going to get bumped by someone more preferred by the program? To break a tie, of course, but not otherwise, especially when another candidate ranks a program #1 and you rank it lower.

If it doesn't matter how you rank programs, then a person that ranked that program 10th can bump you out even though you ranked them 1st? By that rationale, then most of us would be getting no where near our top three picks, which is not the case.

 

[Kongakut]

100% wrong. If the OP ranked that program at all he would've matched given the info he provided was true.

No he wouldn't have because he ranked them third. The person who was 41st ranked them higher and that is why he matched. If the OP ranked them 2nd or 1st, then he would have matched above the 41st person since the OP was 30th because he either would have tied with the person for ranking them 2nd (and been ranked higher by the program would have matched, which I have said repeatedly), or he ranked them 1st, which also would have matched the OP in the 30th place above the 41st person.

 

[jcu]

Guys, Kongakut is spot on about this. The only way OP can say with 100% certainty that the algorithm failed is if that program DID NOT FILL and he ended up at a program lower on his ROL. Because candidate #41 in all likelihood ranked this program HIGHER than the OP (who explicitly states he ranked them third), that is the reason he matched there and the OP did not. The algorithm worked and has been discussed in length in various threads. Where's aPD when you need him to clarify matters?

 

[hadokenny]

No he wouldn't have because he ranked them third. The person who was 41st ranked them higher and that is why he matched. If the OP ranked them 2nd or 1st, then he would have matched above the 41st person since the OP was 30th because he either would have tied with the person for ranking them 2nd (and been ranked higher by the program would have matched, which I have said repeatedly), or he ranked them 1st, which also would have matched the OP in the 30th place above the 41st person.

Dude...You are not getting it. If the OP was at rank 30 and he failed to match at other programs on his list, he WILL match at the program before the person at rank 41. Your preference gets you a TENTATIVE match. But if the person is at a higher position than you on the program's list, he/she will bump you off and take that spot given that person did not match at the other programs.

 

[diehardobgyn]

Guys, Kongakut is spot on about this. The only way OP can say with 100% certainty that the algorithm failed is if that program DID NOT FILL and he ended up at a program lower on his ROL. Because candidate #41 in all likelihood ranked this program HIGHER than the OP (who explicitly states he ranked them third), that is the reason he matched there and the OP did not. The algorithm worked and has been discussed in length in various threads. Where's aPD when you need him to clarify matters?

It is implied in the OP's post that he did not match. So if what he says is true and a candidate ranked 41 while he was ranked 30 matched that would indicate a problem with the algorithm. He indicated that he ranked them third. If he didn't match to his first two choices, this place becomes his #1 and the algorithm attempts to match him to this place. At this point the program's list comes into play. Because technically speaking, at this point him and #41 have the program at the same rank. In this case, he should have matched ahead of #41.

 

[jcu]

It is implied in the OP's post that he did not match. So if what he says is true and a candidate ranked 41 while he was ranked 30 matched that would indicate a problem with the algorithm. He indicated that he ranked them third. If he didn't match to his first two choices, this place becomes his #1 and the algorithm attempts to match him to this place. At this point the program's list comes into play. Because technically speaking, at this point him and #41 have the program at the same rank. In this case, he should have matched ahead of #41.

Woops, totally neglected that he went completely unmatched. That is correct. My bad.

 

[diehardobgyn]

You are assuming that the algorithm starts with the program preference and it does not. It starts with the applicants preference. With the scenario you have above, then the algorithm would tentatively match app A to the program. The algorithm would then go through all the other applicants that ranked that program #1 and it would offer them tentative matches based on where they stood on the program's list (which I stated above - the only time the program list matters is during a tie). Then once all those tentative matches were placed, it then goes to all the candidates that ranked that program #2. It does tentative matches with all of those candidates in the spots that are left over and so on. By the time it gets to your applicant B, the algorithm has gone through every candidate that ranked the program 1, 2, and 3 and offered them tentative matches which are finalized if they fill up the spots. Candidates are matched into their most preferred spot.

If you still think I am wrong, then look at NRMP LINK ITSELF and look at the example:

*Garcia and *Eastman ranked City #1.
*Hansen ranked City #2.

City ranks *Garcia #1, *Hansen #2, and *Eastman #3.

*Garcia and *Eastman match into City even though *Hansen was ranked above *Eastman because the MATCH FAVORS THE APPLICANT and *Eastman and *Garcia ranked City #1.

Another example:
*Hansen ranks State #1 and *Eastman ranks State #3.

State ranks *Eastman #2 and *Hansen #5.

*Hansen MATCHES OVER *Eastman because *Hansen RANKED THEM FIRST even though *Eastman was three places ahead of him on the program's list.

Your logic is flawed as people have mentioned before. City matches Garcia because they ranked each other number one. As far as Hansen and Eastmen go, their lists look like this:

Hansen:
1.State
2. City

Eastman:
1. City
2. ? (not in your example)
3. State

Hansen is tentatively matched with State which is their number one while Eastman is tentatively matched with City. State has ranked Hansen 5 while City has ranked Eastman 3. Hansen matches at State because they have enough spots and the applicants above Hansen preferred other programs over State. Had Eastman not matched to City, they would have matched to City ahead of Hansen. The converse is true for Eastmen at City. They were ranked third and the applicant before them, Hansen, ranked somewhere else higher and matched to a spot.

We can't assume that. If Eastman had not matched into his 1 or 2, then he would have bumped Ford out since State was Ford's 4th choice. Hansen would have remained matched at State as it was his first choice.

The point of the scenarios is to show that applicants get their more preferred choices. If the decision was up to the programs, then Eastman would have have matched into State instead of into City. Hansen would have matched into City instead of State. The point is that the applicants preference taken into account first which is why Eastman got his first choice even though Eastman was ranked higher than Hansen by State but Eastman got City instead where Eastman was ranked lower than Hansen. Conversely, Hansen got his first choice at State even though Eastman was ranked three places higher than him. Again, applicant preference is favored over program preference (unless there is a tie, which I have already stated).

If you take all the scenarios and work them out with the premise that applicants will get their most preferred spot unless there is a tie (then go by program preference) then you match exactly the algorithm example in the NRMP link.

Yes you can assume that Eastman didn't match over Hansen because Eastman matched to a program higher on his list than State (his 1 or 2). If his 1 and 2 hadn't taken him he would have matched over Hansen as I explained above. Your idea that your ranking comes into play is right in some aspects but it is wrong in that if you ranked a program lower than someone else but were higher on that program's rank list the person who is ranked lower than you will rank ahead of you simply because they ranked them higher. That is not how it works.

Take applicant 1 and 2 and programs A, B, and C.

1 preference list:
1. A
2. B
3. C

2 preference list:
1. C
2. B
3. A

Program A and B do not rank applicant one. Program C ranks both applicants. Applicant 1 is ranked 10th and Applicant 2 is ranked 20th. According to you, Applicant 2 would match at program C because they ranked them higher and this is not the case. Since Program A and B did not rank applicant 1, program C now becomes Applicant 1's number one choice. So now technically, 1 and 2 have C ranked number one and it that case what you are describing is true in that the program's preference comes into play and Applicant 1 matches at Program C.

 

[drizzt3117]

No he wouldn't have because he ranked them third. The person who was 41st ranked them higher and that is why he matched. If the OP ranked them 2nd or 1st, then he would have matched above the 41st person since the OP was 30th because he either would have tied with the person for ranking them 2nd (and been ranked higher by the program would have matched, which I have said repeatedly), or he ranked them 1st, which also would have matched the OP in the 30th place above the 41st person.

What you're saying is only true if the OP matched at either his 1st or 2nd choice. People are supposed to rank programs in order of preference, completely neglecting their chances of matching there; if what you said was true, you'd be incentivized to only rank programs where you're ranked to match, thankfully it's not.

 

[username456789]

Kongakut is wrong. Simple as that.

I realize the concept of the match algorithm is not perhaps the most straightforward thing, but I had no idea someone could misinterpret it so wildly.

 

[lightningcrash]

guys my friend sent me an email with a pdf file attached showing the list he was talking about just to prove to me he's not lying. not that i think he was lying, but i guess the fact that i sent him a link to this thread made him think that at the back of my mind the thought did occur to me.

so the list shows all the candidates on one column, and on another column it shows where they matched. 2 other candidates ranked above me were also unmatched. it's not like i can do anything about it. showing this to the nrmp as proof would only get my friend and his program in trouble. and yeah the program director didn't seem inclined to make a complaint, he was just happy that they filled up all slots without going through SOAP. and the fact that he said to my friend "maybe it's because he did not rank our program number 1" makes me think that program directors know that the algorithm doesn't really go the way the NRMP describes it at the website, and that ranking a program high on our list really is a factor. who knows?

if it's a glitch or something, i bet it happened to a lot more people and not just the three of us on the list. heck, it's probably been happening for years. if that's the case, they really should try to fix things. they can't go on playing with our futures like this.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

First off, I want to confirm that Kongakut's interpretation of the match algorithm is incorrect. Many people have already pointed out why, and why the match would be a nightmare if this was correct.

It's confusing, I know. The best way I think I can address this is by explaining the example on the NRMP website. It was posted above that:

*Garcia and *Eastman match into City even though *Hansen was ranked above *Eastman because the MATCH FAVORS THE APPLICANT and *Eastman and *Garcia ranked City #1.

This statement is not really correct. It would be better to say that Hassan (You wrote Hansen, but I assume that was a typo) didn't match at City because he decided to rank State higher.

Look at it this way:

The way the example is presented, the final matches are like this (ranks listed are where the applicant ranked the program):

Mercy:
Chen (#2 rank)
One unfilled spot

General:
Davis (#3)
One unfilled spot

City:
Eastman (#1)
Garcia (#1)

State:
Ford (#4)
Hassan (#1)

Unmatched:
Anderson
Brown

So, just looking at that, Kongakut's logic doesn't make sense. Ford matched at his/her #4, and was ranked by a higher program on his list (City).

Let's say that State doesn't rank Hassan at all, everything else remains the same. Now when you run the match algorithm, Hassan will match at City (his #2). He will bump Eastman because Eastman is lower on the program's rank list. Eastman will now match at Mercy (#2), who still has an open spot, so that's that.

Anyway, it is true that the system "favors the applicant" -- but this only applies to ties in the system. I have explained this in a prior post. This situation happens very rarely. When the NRMP switched from a program-favoring to an applicant-favoring algorithm, less than 2-3% of matches were affected (I think it might have been less than 1%). Point is, both systems are almost equivalent.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This thread now has two different discussions in it, sorry for that.

This is why I think its more my application rather than my interview. Please elaborate as to why the one with the scores is ranked higher than the latter. I understand the importance of exams but it was my impression that once your passed the initial stages then the interview becomes more important because at that point the program knows your score and everyone else' and they want to know who will make a good fit. How can a number on an exam make a better fit than a person with the type of personality they are looking for.

There is another thread about this recently. The bolded part is probably incorrect in most cases. Some fields are very competitive. In those, you have to have step scores >250 (or insert whatever high cutoff you want) to get an interview. In that case, scores may really not matter anymore -- as a resident with a 270 is not really any better than one with a 250. Both did very well on the exam, and both are likely to ultimately pass their specialty board exams. However, in lower competitive fields there is likely to be a larger spread in board scores. In that case, PD's are very likely to rank someone with better scores (or, perhaps better described as "a better performance in medical school") than those with lower scores. Personality is great, but I want someone who will pass the exams at the end (and knows their basic stuff coming in). I'd rather have a resident who did well in medical school but is a bit of a "dud" personality-wise, than one who has a great personality but didn't do well in medical school. Each PD will set the "weight" of these criteria individually, so it's hard to make sweeping generalizations. But I think that the statement that "everyone is equal at the interview" is mostly untrue.

I honored all my rotations and knowing that while I had this last year off I needed to do things to show that my skills aren't atrophying I started research with a major teaching hospital as well as an externship in a private FP clinic. I think these two things helped me get my interviews this year. The problem is I don't know if more of the same would help. What else can you recommend that I do? Would becoming a paramedic this year help at all? What type of position should I be looking for? I would love to do more rotations but like you said its a catch 22 and I wouldn't know what my options would be.

Sounds like you're doing the right things. I doubt that being a paramedic will make much of a difference, I would only do that if you want to and in addition to what you're already doing. What you really want is some clinical experience at your major teaching hospital -- continue your research, and beg/plead for some way to get some clinical experience there.

I realize that which is why I took them with a grain of salt but some of the other things that were said were a lot more specific in the way of me being matched so I took them more seriously. Maybe, I was naive. Being a PD yourself if you told someone (a colleague) that you were going to pull for them (the applicant) to get in would that be close to a guarantee? Would a situation like that then be ok for me to call and express my disappointment in not matching, ask what I did well and what I did poorly and ask what I can do to be a better applicant?

Nothing short of "I promise you will match with us" is a guarantee of matching, and even that really isn't (since it's only as good as the word of the PD). I told exactly one student this year that they were guaranteed to match with us -- their spouse is here with us, and I basically told them not to bother interviewing anywhere that would be lower than us. Should they match somewhere else (because they ranked that program higher than us), no hard feelings. I ranked them #1.

Can you contact this program? Sure, and if you had a good relationship with them you certainly could. Unfortunately, you're likely going to be told "It was a really competitive year, and if we had gone down a bit further on our rank list you would have matched with us", which isn't really going to help you. But there isn't much downside to asking, as long as you're polite and especially if you had a relationship with them more than just interviewing.

 

[deleted103644]

guys my friend sent me an email with a pdf file attached showing the list he was talking about just to prove to me he's not lying. not that i think he was lying, but i guess the fact that i sent him a link to this thread made him think that at the back of my mind the thought did occur to me.

so the list shows all the candidates on one column, and on another column it shows where they matched. 2 other candidates ranked above me were also unmatched. it's not like i can do anything about it. showing this to the nrmp as proof would only get my friend and his program in trouble. and yeah the program director didn't seem inclined to make a complaint, he was just happy that they filled up all slots without going through SOAP. and the fact that he said to my friend "maybe it's because he did not rank our program number 1" makes me think that program directors know that the algorithm doesn't really go the way the NRMP describes it at the website, and that ranking a program high on our list really is a factor. who knows?

if it's a glitch or something, i bet it happened to a lot more people and not just the three of us on the list. heck, it's probably been happening for years. if that's the case, they really should try to fix things. they can't go on playing with our futures like this.

If there were a glitch, I think this would have been much more widespread. Are you sure you finalized your list correctly? Maybe you didn't actually enter that program's code? The other possibility is that this was a preliminary list and you were pushed down/omitted later.

I'd bet that if this is legitimate, there was either user error on your part or on the PD's part entering the program's rank list. If that's the case, not really anything you can do. Might be worth it to talk to the PD, although it might be awkward to say that you have a copy of his rank list.

 

[Kongakut]

Thanks aPD.

I may have worded it badly but what you have laid out is more what I have been trying to say, the match favors the applicant's match first over the program's match... except when there is a tie as I've said.

So, just looking at that, Kongakut's logic doesn't make sense. Ford matched at his/her #4, and was ranked by a higher program on his list (City).

Ford did rank City 1st, but City ranked 7 other applicants before Ford, 6 of which ranked City as their 1st pick. So, with only 2 spots to fill, Garcia and Eastman get matched there after bumping all the other tentatively matched applicants who ranked them 1st out of temporary match spots with City, because they were the two highest ranked applicants by City. Yes?

Let's say that State doesn't rank Hassan at all, everything else remains the same. Now when you run the match algorithm, Hassan will match at City (his #2). He will bump Eastman because Eastman is lower on the program's rank list. Eastman will now match at Mercy (#2), who still has an open spot, so that's that.

I agree about Hassan, but Eastman matched to Mercy even though Mercy didn't rank Eastman at all? My point earlier was that Hassan (saw the typo earlier, but just ran with it as to not confuse things more) got his/her 1st pick even though he/she was ranked higher at another program. My problem is, that the 8 applicants and 4 programs given in the example on the NRMP page do not address the specific problems we are discussing here.

I thought I was correct in my thinking, although, accepting the fact that I could very well be wrong, I called NMRP to ask about our "hypothetical" question. After talking with the person there and reading aPD's post, things are as clear as mud. The lady on the phone informed me that I was wrong to a degree (I was right about tie-breaking is done by program preference and that applicant preference does come into play first - explained below). She did not agree that someone who doesn't match gets put back through the system bumping others out who have matched with a lower ranking, which was stated by another poster earlier. She said there are no iterations but rather that it is all done at the same time according to PREFERENCE. Her description of preference was more about the relationship between your ROL, the programs ROL, and the number of spots they need to fill for their program. So, for example, a person who ranked program A as 3rd and was ranked by A as 30th, may lose out to a person ranked 40th by A if the person at 40th ranked A as #1 while the person ranked 30th was ranked by their #4 choice as 2nd in their ROL especially if program A has a relatively high number of spots to fill. So 2nd on your #4 program has a greater preference of matching than 30th at your #3 program. That makes some sense to me although, it is not clearly stated that way on the NRMP page nor is an example given showing this on that page and it doesn't seem to be what you are saying, aPD. It also doesn't specifically address what would happen if our #30 didn't match anywhere at all, unless the preferences of the other competing applicants fit better with the programs applied to. We can not answer that question unless we not only have the OP's ROL and the programs that he applied to ROL, but also the ROL of the competing applicants in relation to where they ranked in the programs they were applying to. Since the program's ROLs are confidential we can not give a clear explanation to the problem.

I admit that I was confused but I did try to find out the answers from NRMP in order to help the OP. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[b-real]

Thanks aPD.

I may have worded it badly but what you have laid out is more what I have been trying to say, the match favors the applicant's match first over the program's match... except when there is a tie as I've said.

Ford did rank City 1st, but City ranked 7 other applicants before Ford, 6 of which ranked City as their 1st pick. So, with only 2 spots to fill, Garcia and Eastman get matched there after bumping all the other tentatively matched applicants who ranked them 1st out of temporary match spots with City, because they were the two highest ranked applicants by City. Yes?

I agree about Hassan, but Eastman matched to Mercy even though Mercy didn't rank Eastman at all? My point earlier was that Hassan (saw the typo earlier, but just ran with it as to not confuse things more) got his/her 1st pick even though he/she was ranked higher at another program. My problem is, that the 8 applicants and 4 programs given in the example on the NRMP page do not address the specific problems we are discussing here.

I thought I was correct in my thinking, although, accepting the fact that I could very well be wrong, I called NMRP to ask about our "hypothetical" question. After talking with the person there and reading aPD's post, things are as clear as mud. The lady on the phone informed me that I was wrong to a degree (I was right about tie-breaking is done by program preference and that applicant preference does come into play first - explained below). She did not agree that someone who doesn't match gets put back through the system bumping others out who have matched with a lower ranking, which was stated by another poster earlier. She said there are no iterations but rather that it is all done at the same time according to PREFERENCE. Her description of preference was more about the relationship between your ROL, the programs ROL, and the number of spots they need to fill for their program. So, for example, a person who ranked program A as 3rd and was ranked by A as 30th, may lose out to a person ranked 40th by A if the person at 40th ranked A as #1 while the person ranked 30th was ranked by their #4 choice as 2nd in their ROL especially if program A has a relatively high number of spots to fill. So 2nd on your #4 program has a greater preference of matching than 30th at your #3 program. That makes some sense to me although, it is not clearly stated that way on the NRMP page nor is an example given showing this on that page and it doesn't seem to be what you are saying, aPD. It also doesn't specifically address what would happen if our #30 didn't match anywhere at all, unless the preferences of the other competing applicants fit better with the programs applied to. We can not answer that question unless we not only have the OP's ROL and the programs that he applied to ROL, but also the ROL of the competing applicants in relation to where they ranked in the programs they were applying to. Since the program's ROLs are confidential we can not give a clear explanation to the problem.

I admit that I was confused but I did try to find out the answers from NRMP in order to help the OP. Sorry for any confusion.

You still don't get it. Just because an applicant ranks a program #1 doesn't mean that that candidate will beat out applicants who are more favored by the program. I have a feeling you won't concede even when multiple people, including an actual PD, tell you that you are wrong.

 

[deleted103644]

I thought I was correct in my thinking, although, accepting the fact that I could very well be wrong, I called NMRP to ask about our "hypothetical" question. After talking with the person there and reading aPD's post, things are as clear as mud. The lady on the phone informed me that I was wrong to a degree (I was right about tie-breaking is done by program preference and that applicant preference does come into play first - explained below). She did not agree that someone who doesn't match gets put back through the system bumping others out who have matched with a lower ranking, which was stated by another poster earlier. She said there are no iterations but rather that it is all done at the same time according to PREFERENCE. Her description of preference was more about the relationship between your ROL, the programs ROL, and the number of spots they need to fill for their program.

When I said iterations, I was referring to the algorithm. There may be more integrative ways of implementing the algorithm, but a series of iterations is the most intuitive way to do it. I actually wrote a program to simulate the match and it would usually take 100 iterations to reach a stable solution.

God only knows who the NRMP has staffing their phones, I would not rely on them for details about the match algorithm.

So, for example, a person who ranked program A as 3rd and was ranked by A as 30th, may lose out to a person ranked 40th by A if the person at 40th ranked A as #1 while the person ranked 30th was ranked by their #4 choice as 2nd in their ROL especially if program A has a relatively high number of spots to fill. So 2nd on your #4 program has a greater preference of matching than 30th at your #3 program. That makes some sense to me although, it is not clearly stated that way on the NRMP page nor is an example given showing this on that page and it doesn't seem to be what you are saying, aPD. It also doesn't specifically address what would happen if our #30 didn't match anywhere at all, unless the preferences of the other competing applicants fit better with the programs applied to.

I'm trying I figure out what you just said and fighting the urge to quote Billy Madison.

Program A

#30: Applicant 1
#40: Applicant 2

Program X:
#2: Applicant 1

Applicant 1
#3: Program A
#4: Program X

Applicant 2:
#1: Program A

I believe this is the situation you're describing. In NO event would Applicant 1 match to Program X and Applicant 2 match to Program A, which I believe is what you now think will happen. Either they both go to A, 1 goes to A and 2 does not, or neither does.

As I said, I've actually implemented a version of the algorithm and run simulations of it. Take my word on this: you are confused.

 

[IDBasco]

so the list shows all the candidates on one column, and on another column it shows where they matched. 2 other candidates ranked above me were also unmatched. it's not like i can do anything about it. showing this to the nrmp as proof would only get my friend and his program in trouble. and yeah the program director didn't seem inclined to make a complaint, he was just happy that they filled up all slots without going through SOAP. and the fact that he said to my friend "maybe it's because he did not rank our program number 1" makes me think that program directors know that the algorithm doesn't really go the way the NRMP describes it at the website, and that ranking a program high on our list really is a factor. who knows?

Its hard to look at 2 names that didn't match and guess whether or not they ranked this program. You ranked it 3rd, maybe they didn't really want to go there at all and left it off completely. Some people get a little overconfident and get burned.

I also want to ask, if it was so dependent on ranking a program number 1, how would people end up ranked to #5 or lower on their list?

if it's a glitch or something, i bet it happened to a lot more people and not just the three of us on the list. heck, it's probably been happening for years. if that's the case, they really should try to fix things. they can't go on playing with our futures like this.

I agree with this but I have to assume that one of the checks that happens in the time between the algorithm and publishing of results is to check for this sort of thing.

Maybe someone above suggested this but have you checked the actual number of the program you ranked and verified that its correct?