Now, even the *chaplains* are dressing up as doctors

[ZincFingers]

If the white coat is meant to indicate "expertise," then why do interns wear long white coats? Do you really think that an intern in June knows THAT MUCH MORE than a CRNP with 25 years of experience does?

Actually, in some ways... yes, that intern does know more.

At my place there is a kickass intelligent ARNP in pedes who has forgotten more about handling children than I as a future internist will ever know. She is truly one of the superstar NPs that temporarily make me forget my doubts about her field. She's so confident in herself that she doesn't even need the pristine, dry-cleaned white coat so important to other NPs, and she always wears scrubs. She has shepherded countless residents through the pedes program. And yet... even she will sometimes need to go to one of those very pedes attendings that she knew when they were babyfaced interns, and ask them about something beyond the scope of her training.

Browse any NP or DNP cirriculum. There is precious little medicine there, and plenty of MBA and MPH style classes. And their entrance requirements are dreadfully low... for every superstar NP, there are plenty of plodders who have no business being in the hospital whatsoever let alone taking care of patients.

You and I chose to bust our behinds to go to med school, instead of taking the easy path, because this is the best road for gaining knowledge about how to take care of patients. DNP programs do not even come close. You're damn right we earned that white coat far more than the NPs, even though that is politically incorrect to say.

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[smq123]

She has shepherded countless residents through the pedes program. And yet... even she will sometimes need to go to one of those very pedes attendings that she knew when they were babyfaced interns, and ask them about something beyond the scope of her training.

Well, yeah, she goes to them NOW, when they're attendings.

But, my point is, if you take a newly minted intern, and a CRNP with 25 years experience, who is going to "know" more about taking care of patients? About what to do in an emergency?

Of course you learn more during residency, and eventually will know more than the CRNP. Of course; that goes without saying.

But the point is that you don't graduate medical school and magically become "fully trained." So if the white coat is meant to designate that that person wearing it is "fully trained," then why do they let interns wear it?

I am NOT in favor of making CRNPs and PAs have the same scope of practice of physicians. But, it's a stupid piece of white cloth! It's a symbol that may have run its course. Why make such a big fuss about it? Shouldn't some of the MS2s and MS1s in this thread who are up in arms about "losing prestige!" devote some of that self-righteous anger to making sure that CRNPs and PAs don't encroach on some of the MD/DO's practicing privileges? Let's put this in perspective here.

 

[zenman]

Was this grocery store in the hospital?

What part of this don't you get?

I didn't know I'd have to make it clear for the special ed crowd, but here it is. People from time immortal have been wearing a white coat, so who cares? No one knows who anyone else is in the hospital anyway.

 

[Man In White]

Man, this topic has been beaten to death.

 

[Anam Cara]

(see attachment)

And now, the freakin' chaplains?? You have got to be kidding me! What gives?

It doesn't even make sense. If I want someone to give last rites to my grandma, I want to see someone in a black shirt and clerical collar, not yet another doctor-wannabe in the white coat and pager. I mean, come ON.

As a hospital chaplain, I'm surprised to hear of this. Most of us prefer normal businesswear in our work. I could see how a chaplain wearing a white coat would be off-putting.

But, FYI, even "clerical collars" are a bit troublesome for us. I mean, if we have Jewish or Buddhist or even some evangelical Christian pts, then the "clerical collar" is actually a distraction. We try to respect patients from ALL faith traditions (or no faith tradition). Even most Catholic priests I know who serve as chaplains go in wearing a tie and jacket.

As an aside, chaplains DO happen to carry pagers... patients tend to need to delve into the touchy/feely-what does this illness mean for my life/what's it all about alfie type conversations. Moreover, we're the ones who comfort families during Code Blues, so they won't be jumping in your way during the code.

So yes, it's silly when chaplains wear lab coats. But frankly, we keep patient satisfaction scores up (deathbed type care is only about 5% of what chaplains do in your hospital). So be kind to your friendly chaplain. She or he is there to make your job easier and to help patients/families cope.

 

[78222]

So doctors have traditionally worn white coats. Doctors were also traditionally white males. Maybe some traditions aren't bulletproof.

Fair enough, although the analogy to white males is poor. However, I think some traditions are worth keeping. Personally, I wish nurses still wore the old style uniform. There is one here who wears it and I think she looks much more professional than the ugly pink poke-a-dot/teddy bears/balloons scrubs a lot of nurses wear.

If the white coat is meant to indicate "expertise," then why do interns wear long white coats? Do you really think that an intern in June knows THAT MUCH MORE than a CRNP with 25 years of experience does?

If the white coat is truly meant to indicate that that person is a "trained professional," then we'd have gradations of white coats, reserving the long white coat for attendings only.

It isn't just about hospital expertise, it's about role in the hospital setting. Like it or not, the RN with 25 years experience will be taking orders from the lowly green intern. Also, I don't have a problem with NPs wearing white coats. They are often acting in the role of physician.

Yeah, because med students never do something idiotic, and interns always have great bedside manners.

And couldn't the reverse be true as well? What if a mid-level practitioner, wearing a white coat, does something GREAT for the patient - comforts them, explains their treatment plan to them clearly, notices an alarming change in the patient's mental status?

Med students wear short white coats. Interns may not have great bedside manners but at least they are actual physicians and if they do something that makes physicians look bad, well, they are actual physicians at least.

As for mid-leve/low levels doing something great for the patient. Well good for them, let it reflect on the quality of their field.

As a petty aside, one thing that really annoys me is the fact that it seems like students from every other field are wearing long white coats at my hospital. Everyone other than medstudents seems to have a long coat with their name embroidered on it. I usually don't even wear my coat these days because it looks so silly when everyone else in the hospital has a long coat.

 

[78222]

As a hospital chaplain, I'm surprised to hear of this. Most of us prefer normal businesswear in our work. I could see how a chaplain wearing a white coat would be off-putting.

But, FYI, even "clerical collars" are a bit troublesome for us. I mean, if we have Jewish or Buddhist or even some evangelical Christian pts, then the "clerical collar" is actually a distraction. We try to respect patients from ALL faith traditions (or no faith tradition). Even most Catholic priests I know who serve as chaplains go in wearing a tie and jacket.

As an aside, chaplains DO happen to carry pagers... patients tend to need to delve into the touchy/feely-what does this illness mean for my life/what's it all about alfie type conversations. Moreover, we're the ones who comfort families during Code Blues, so they won't be jumping in your way during the code.

So yes, it's silly when chaplains wear lab coats. But frankly, we keep patient satisfaction scores up (deathbed type care is only about 5% of what chaplains do in your hospital). So be kind to your friendly chaplain. She or he is there to make your job easier and to help patients/families cope.

Chaplains here also wear business wear. I don't think anyone is really meaning to be disparaging towards chaplains. They do good work and I'm glad to have them here.

 

[smq123]

Med students wear short white coats. Interns may not have great bedside manners but at least they are actual physicians and if they do something that makes physicians look bad, well, they are actual physicians at least.

This kind of circular argument doesn't make any sense.

The point that you seemed to be making was that if a nurse or a dietician wears a white coat, and then does something unprofessional or gives the patient poor information, then it makes physicians look bad. But the point that I was trying to make was that interns and residents and attendings (who ARE actual physicians) often do stuff that makes physicians look bad too. So your argument is not really a good reason for why the white coat should remain sacred to physicians.

As a petty aside, one thing that really annoys me is the fact that it seems like students from every other field are wearing long white coats at my hospital. Everyone other than medstudents seems to have a long coat with their name embroidered on it. I usually don't even wear my coat these days because it looks so silly when everyone else in the hospital has a long coat.

I actually haven't seen this. The only other students that I saw with long white coats were med students on away rotations.

There are some old-school surgery programs that don't let residents wear long coats, actually. They have to wear the short white coat until they're chiefs. I know that Emory used to do this until very recently (they still might do it - I'm not sure), and I think that Duke does this as well.

It isn't just about hospital expertise, it's about role in the hospital setting. Like it or not, the RN with 25 years experience will be taking orders from the lowly green intern. Also, I don't have a problem with NPs wearing white coats. They are often acting in the role of physician.

Right - but when the initial point that you make is that the white coat symbolizes "level of training"...in a way it does, and in a way it doesn't.

I guess what I'm trying to say that it's just a symbol.

 

[ZincFingers]

I actually haven't seen this. The only other students that I saw with long white coats were med students on away rotations.

Unfortunately, I do see this. Nursing students, dietary students and NP students here wear the long white coat. The pharm school, to their credit, has their students wear the short coat.

On my current rotation, our attending often wears street clothes on rounds. Jeans and a windbreaker. Maybe that will be the new status symbol in the hospital. Anyone in jeans and wearing a stethoscope = someone too badass to care about dress codes. Presumably, if this catches on, nurse clinical coordinators will start showing up in jeans too.

 

[78222]

This kind of circular argument doesn't make any sense.

The point that you seemed to be making was that if a nurse or a dietician wears a white coat, and then does something unprofessional or gives the patient poor information, then it makes physicians look bad. But the point that I was trying to make was that interns and residents and attendings (who ARE actual physicians) often do stuff that makes physicians look bad too. So your argument is not really a good reason for why the white coat should remain sacred to physicians.

My point is let physcians represent themselves and let other people represent their fields. I am not saying attendings, residents, interns are perferct. What I am saying is that if our profession is going to be judged for the action of someone in a white coat, let that person at least be a member of our profession.

I actually haven't seen this. The only other students that I saw with long white coats were med students on away rotations.

There are some old-school surgery programs that don't let residents wear long coats, actually. They have to wear the short white coat until they're chiefs. I know that Emory used to do this until very recently (they still might do it - I'm not sure), and I think that Duke does this as well.

Well. I see it quite a bit. There is some sort of NP student here who wears a long coat with his name across it. The nursing students even have longer white coats than we do.

Right - but when the initial point that you make is that the white coat symbolizes "level of training"...in a way it does, and in a way it doesn't.

I guess what I'm trying to say that it's just a symbol.

I agree that it's just a symbol, I just wish we'd done a little more to protect that symbol - in the same way I wish we'd protected the title of "doctor" in the clinical setting.

 

[jake2]

What this dead horse argument always boils down to always seems to be that uniforms are really useless in most life situations so why can't people wear whatever the hell they want? That's fair enough. Is there really any reason to wear a suit to the office? The neck tie is a complete waste of fabric, money, and personal comfort. Why the hell do judges wear robes? Why does the pizza delivery guy wear a uniform?

Occasionally there is actually a functional reason to wear a uniform. IE. the mechanic's jumpsuit or the white lab coat of the lab worker who posted above. He/she should wear the hell out of that white coat because they're actually using it just to keep crap off of them in a lab, it's intended purpose. Occasionally, it would be confusing if some group of people didn't wear a uniform so they do. Ever been to a clothes store where employees don't? It get confusing sometimes.

You can argue, as I would, that distinguishing doctors from other medical staff in a hospital is important. For the sake of argument though, let's say it's not. Is there really any reason for doctors alone to wear a white coat then? Not really other than tradition, same reason judges alone wear robes. The white coat, outside the lab, is largely useless.

But let's posit the question in reverse. Why the hell would you wear a white coat if you didn't do it for tradition? Why would nursing students wear long white coats if all coats are largely pointless? To be confused with doctors is the only reason I can think of, and it's just damn annoying!

It isn't acceptable for, say, janitors to wear judicial robes in courts, fatigues in army bases, or graduation gowns when they're not supposed to just to feel cool. Why is it acceptable to wear a doctor's white coat and hope to get confused with one?

We as a profession really should stand up for ourselves every now and then and say these are our traditions, senseless though they may be, and no you can't adopt them as well in an attempt for you to further your goal of hijacking our business.

<\end rhetorical questions>

 

[surrender903]

you can have my white coat for all i care. Just let me have my scrubs and nerdy stetoscope holder on my waist. go me i suppose.

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

What this dead horse argument always boils down to always seems to be that uniforms are really useless in most life situations so why can't people wear whatever the hell they want? That's fair enough. Is there really any reason to wear a suit to the office? The neck tie is a complete waste of fabric, money, and personal comfort. Why the hell do judges wear robes? Why does the pizza delivery guy wear a uniform?

Occasionally there is actually a functional reason to wear a uniform. IE. the mechanic's jumpsuit or the white lab coat of the lab worker who posted above. He/she should wear the hell out of that white coat because they're actually using it just to keep crap off of them in a lab, it's intended purpose. Occasionally, it would be confusing if some group of people didn't wear a uniform so they do. Ever been to a clothes store where employees don't? It get confusing sometimes.

You can argue, as I would, that distinguishing doctors from other medical staff in a hospital is important. For the sake of argument though, let's say it's not. Is there really any reason for doctors alone to wear a white coat then? Not really other than tradition, same reason judges alone wear robes. The white coat, outside the lab, is largely useless.

But let's posit the question in reverse. Why the hell would you wear a white coat if you didn't do it for tradition? Why would nursing students wear long white coats if all coats are largely pointless? To be confused with doctors is the only reason I can think of, and it's just damn annoying!

It isn't acceptable for, say, janitors to wear judicial robes in courts, fatigues in army bases, or graduation gowns when they're not supposed to just to feel cool. Why is it acceptable to wear a doctor's white coat and hope to get confused with one?

We as a profession really should stand up for ourselves every now and then and say these are our traditions, senseless though they may be, and no you can't adopt them as well in an attempt for you to further your goal of hijacking our business.

<\end rhetorical questions>

I completely agree with this post and others similar to it that expose the human quality which seeks to elevate one's image above one's real-time qualifications. While most of these individuals (non-physicians) worked hard to complete whatever it is they're doing, there's a qualitative difference in the pathway the physician takes that distinguishes him from the rest of the health care team. This pathway results in attainment of pathophysiological knowledge, clinical reasoning skills, and myriad other qualifications.

The reason I bold a short segment of your statement above is that these traditions, including that of wearing the white coat, are not senseless. In fact, they are necessary to prevent the dilution of our profession. The dilution of respect and responsibility. Wearing the white coat is one manifestation of professionalism and serves to reinforce the way we view ourselves, and in turn, the way in which society views us.

 

[Odontomata]

Do staff at the hospitals discussed here have to wear identification tags around their necks? Most around here do.

If so, how about this for an easy fix - have thick lanyards with big bold writing. Doctors could have "MEDICAL STAFF" and nurses could have "NURSING STAFF" written on it. White coat or no white coat, scrubs, business clothes, whatever. Patients will still know who you are without having to ask.

At one of the hospitals I've been to, they had this exact system, plus different colours for each category. Doctors had "[hospital name] medical team" in green, nurses had "[hospital name] nursing team" in blue and all other (clerical, management etc) staff had "[hospital name] team" in black. It was wonderful

 

[lapelirroja]

Since the damage of "white coat creep" has already set in, I'm a proponent of having coats with patches on the arm denoting the wearer's position--> "MD" "DO" (or just physician so as not to confuse patients not aware of DOs...) "PA" "NP" etc.

In a perfect world, everyone would wear coats of the appropriate length and some wouldn't have coats at all, but it's not a perfect world.

I also pose this question: What should PAs and NPs wear as they diagnose and treat patients? Also, should laboratory staff NOT be allowed to wear lab coats?

 

[Regnvejr]

...and confusion isn't a good thing in the heat of the battle (code) so someone will really get hurt.

Hence, name tags. Getting fired up over what others look like will just give you a good dose of reflux and have others look at you weirdly.

 

[ZincFingers]

Funny you should mention codes. It's tough for the MD on scene to do anything at my place because there are ICU nurses and RTs all shouting commands at the same time. My ACLS course taught me that it's best to have 1 leader calling the shots... guess they should have realized that is not very politically correct.

But at least ICU nurses and RTs actually know what they are doing, unlike the all the useless mouths around here who insist on wearing the white coat.

 

[The Angriest Bird]

As far as I know, the US health care system has the loosest dress code you can find in the entire world. There's NO DRESS CODE. You can be the janitor and wear a white coat + a stethoscope. Nobody can do a damn about you.

In some Asian countries I know, China, Hong Kong, hospitals have STRICT dress code. A nurse wearing a white coat can be ground for termination. Even nurses of different ranks wear different scrubs. A lot of hospitals require nurses to wear "hats" and display their ranks by putting different number of stripes on their hat (picture below), somewhat like in the military. There's also rules regulating who can put stethoscope around their neck.

 

[jherbert]

This is kind of going back a bit, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how ridiculous it was that nurses put so many letters after their name. A friend of mine who is a nursing student argued today that the distinction between a BSN and, say, a nurse with only an associate's degree is important. Is there any validity to this?

 

[87138]

No one knows who anyone else is in the hospital anyway.

This is, in part, because EVERYONE NOW DRESSES THE SAME. This is what we are saying. Perhaps you're going senile in your old age, but that was the point. Everyone dresses alike in the hospital today. We weren't talking about Joe Butcher wearing one to cut up dead animals in a grocery store, because no one expects to find a physician doing that there.

I don't know how that wasn't clear.

 

[zenman]

This is, in part, because EVERYONE NOW DRESSES THE SAME. This is what we are saying. Perhaps you're going senile in your old age, but that was the point. Everyone dresses alike in the hospital today. We weren't talking about Joe Butcher wearing one to cut up dead animals in a grocery store, because no one expects to find a physician doing that there.

I don't know how that wasn't clear.

It's very clear to me, and always has been. Some of your neurons aren't firing are they, lol! The main point I was making was that many people outside of health care wear a white coat but who cares? I'm not senile yet and I also enjoy the benefits of having gone to school when they actually had an effective educational system.

 

[SoCuteMD]

This is kind of going back a bit, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how ridiculous it was that nurses put so many letters after their name. A friend of mine who is a nursing student argued today that the distinction between a BSN and, say, a nurse with only an associate's degree is important. Is there any validity to this?

I think it's a point of distinction and pride for them, but doesn't affect their roles in day to day patient care. It may affect what jobs they are eligible for, but it's not the kind of thing you NEED to know while writing orders, etc.

 

[87138]

I'm not senile yet and I also enjoy the benefits of having gone to school when they actually had an effective educational system.

. . . yet you use juvenile terms like "lol" and juvenile tactics like attacking my education when you can't effectively counter my statements.

Your "point", in context with mine, is a non sequitur. Saying that all kind of people wear white coats outside of the hospital, and have for a long time, is only peripherally related (at best) to the discussion at hand.

People are "concerned" because any Joe Schmoe walks around the hospital in a white coat these days, and it would be foolish to assume that the driving force behind this whole movement ISN'T the perceived respect (whether you agree with that or not on a personal level) that the white coat confers upon the wearer. It sure isn't because the white coat allows, say, the Chaplain to more effectively do his job.

For most people, when they walk into a hospital and see someone with a white coat on, the first assumption is that this person is a physician (unless they've been hanging out in hospitals long enough the past few years to realize that even the Janitor's assistant wears one these days). Just like when you walk into a grocery store and go to the deli, you expect that the person behind the counter in the white coat is a butcher of some sort, and not a physician. It's not the coat's existence, it's the context in which it is worn.

I don't know why I've even typed this response out, because you'll simply reply by rephrasing what you've already said, which, as has been pointed out, is circumventing the relevant conversation. That, or you'll call me a doody-head weenie-face.

 

[Kedan]

This is kind of going back a bit, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how ridiculous it was that nurses put so many letters after their name. A friend of mine who is a nursing student argued today that the distinction between a BSN and, say, a nurse with only an associate's degree is important. Is there any validity to this?

I'm sure it's important to her but the patient on bed 6 doesn't care and I don't either so maybe we can leave it on the resume.

 

[RxnMan]

So, if eveyone's wearing white coats or whatever they want, does that mean I can ditch my short coat?

 

[unsung]

Unfortunately, I do see this. Nursing students, dietary students and NP students here wear the long white coat. The pharm school, to their credit, has their students wear the short coat.

On my current rotation, our attending often wears street clothes on rounds. Jeans and a windbreaker. Maybe that will be the new status symbol in the hospital. Anyone in jeans and wearing a stethoscope = someone too badass to care about dress codes. Presumably, if this catches on, nurse clinical coordinators will start showing up in jeans too.

I think that is exactly right, actually. Department I used to work in, I saw the attending coming in sometimes in capris and athletic shoes. Trust me, no one ever mistook her for a nurse or some other staff member. Otoh, the NPs always always have their white coats on, presumably to distinguish themselves from the staff nurses on the floor. When you get to the point in your career where you can wear whatever you like... THAT seems to be more of a status symbol than a white coat uniform.

 

[Regnvejr]

So, if eveyone's wearing white coats or whatever they want, does that mean I can ditch my short coat?

Do psychiatry, and you don't have to wear a white coat, ever.

 

[Momentum70]

I agree that it has more to do with patient care. An interesting thing is in California they passed a law that interns cant introduce themselves as doctors because they dont want to confuse the patients or some stupid politically correct/lawsuit reason. Yet they have no trouble with the multitude of people that dress and mimic doctors confusing the patient. A patient should be able to be able to recognize their doctor by looks and not confuse the tech with the MD/DO. I dont care who wears a lab coat long or short outside of the hospital, but inside the long coats should be able to signify doctor.

 

[zenman]

. . . yet you use juvenile terms like "lol" and juvenile tactics like attacking my education when you can't effectively counter my statements.

Your "point", in context with mine, is a non sequitur. Saying that all kind of people wear white coats outside of the hospital, and have for a long time, is only peripherally related (at best) to the discussion at hand.

People are "concerned" because any Joe Schmoe walks around the hospital in a white coat these days, and it would be foolish to assume that the driving force behind this whole movement ISN'T the perceived respect (whether you agree with that or not on a personal level) that the white coat confers upon the wearer. It sure isn't because the white coat allows, say, the Chaplain to more effectively do his job.

For most people, when they walk into a hospital and see someone with a white coat on, the first assumption is that this person is a physician (unless they've been hanging out in hospitals long enough the past few years to realize that even the Janitor's assistant wears one these days). Just like when you walk into a grocery store and go to the deli, you expect that the person behind the counter in the white coat is a butcher of some sort, and not a physician. It's not the coat's existence, it's the context in which it is worn.

I don't know why I've even typed this response out, because you'll simply reply by rephrasing what you've already said, which, as has been pointed out, is circumventing the relevant conversation. That, or you'll call me a doody-head weenie-face.

If you go back to the OP, you'll see they were basically saying that everyone is now wearing a white coat. Yes they are, both in and outside the hospital. Now, I see high school students are wearing white coats in science lab.

So, who gives a crap? I certainly don't. No one needs to be wearing a coat and/or tie if they are around patients anyway. I hope you realize the craziness some educated people argue about. Everyone is wearing a white coat because someone didn't have the power to claim and keep it as their own status symbol.

Yes, I agree it really looks good when I step inside Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok and I can recognize who is who. (Guess someone there had the power.) But if I can't I'm smart enough to ask.

LOL? Well look at all the cute little icons on this site for medical professionals.

So, let's put this to rest. I'm off on break for a week

 

[Farmer Jane]

This is kind of going back a bit, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how ridiculous it was that nurses put so many letters after their name. A friend of mine who is a nursing student argued today that the distinction between a BSN and, say, a nurse with only an associate's degree is important. Is there any validity to this?

I'm an ADN nurse, four weeks away from completing my BSN. I now feel qualified to answer that no, there is no distinction. The only things I learned throughout my RN-BSN program were a few definitions concerning research, and stuff in my humanities classes. I loved Celtic archaeology. Community Health Nursing? Worthless--all common sense stuff I already knew.

The functional difference is that if you want to work in public health, a school, or a jail, you need a BSN. For some clinical leadership positions you need a BSN, but really you'll need a MSN so that loses some distinction there. On the floors there is no difference whatsoever.

There are a few studies published by Linda Aiken, that disparage ADNs and offer "evidence" that patient die more often and get infections more often when hospitals have more ADN nurses. Problem is Aiken is a blight to the profession, because her studies are crap and show only correlation, not causation, but she insists otherwise. They didn't look at the setting and resources of hospitals in the study.

So no, there is really no difference, and I am so glad to almost be done with this stupid program.

Side note: I don't wear a white coat.

 

[Kedan]

Finally met one today: I was sort of hoping the OP had been mistaken but as I walked off the Ortho ward this morning I was greeted by a Chaplain wearing the exact same thing I was. My mouth actually hung open as I watched him walk down the corridor. The sad thing is he was so happy when he greeted me and I could barely muster a smile. I hope he wasn't offended by my slack-jawed stare.

So there you have it, apparently the transvestism is spreading around the world now.

 

[unsung]

This is kind of going back a bit, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how ridiculous it was that nurses put so many letters after their name. A friend of mine who is a nursing student argued today that the distinction between a BSN and, say, a nurse with only an associate's degree is important. Is there any validity to this?

It's important for furthering their careers. Oftentimes management/leadership positions in nursing require the bachelor's degree or higher. I will even venture to say that I've at times noticed a difference in degree of professionalism or ability in dealing with patients from different cultures, etc. Of course, it always depends on the person in question. But it's like with any job, when you're comparing a college grad and a guy who's got his associate's degree. Different connotations.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

So, if eveyone's wearing white coats or whatever they want, does that mean I can ditch my short coat?

I did exactly this starting with fourth year. No one has said a damn word to me.

 

[ZincFingers]

I did exactly this starting with fourth year. No one has said a damn word to me.

I only wear it when explicitly forced to.

Last time was in November, when I did an away rotation. I'm so glad to be rid of that thing. I'll try my best not to wear it as an intern either... let the NPs have their mark of mediocrity. Business casual + stethoscope = win.

 

[TRN1983]

Back in the late 60s during high school I worked behind the meat counter at a local grocery store. The butcher wore a white coat. Was he a surgeon? I never heard anyone complain about him wearing a white coat.

The key is the hospital setting. As was previously mentioned, it's very helpful to be able to identify a person's position by their apparel. I've volunteered at hospitals with and without mandatory apparel distinctions, and, without a doubt, it's much easier to get around and get to who you need to (and quick) in the apparel coordinated hospital.

The bottom line is that the whole white-coat trend is silly. There is only ONE reason the whole hospital wants to wear the "physicians" coat... I'm sure you can figure that one out. Hint: NO, white coats are not better personal protection equipment than scrubs, so that sure ain't it.

I personally don't care what physicians wear, but I am a firm believer that at a glance physicians should be separable from DNP/NP/PA/RN/BSN/CNA/etc, especially in departments like emergency.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I only wear it when explicitly forced to.

Last time was in November, when I did an away rotation. I'm so glad to be rid of that thing. I'll try my best not to wear it as an intern either... let the NPs have their mark of mediocrity. Business casual + stethoscope = win.

Yeah see, even when forced to, I come up with the, "Yeah, somemone's ostomy leaked all over it. Had to bleach it and forgot to throw it in the dryer. My bad boss"

And so I go another day, without the white coat.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Who knows why people do this? Where I went to med school everyone wore long white coats (janitors, nurses, chaplains, transporters, cafeteria staff) except med students.

It is truly hilarious when you get to thinking about it. I heard an annecdote about a hospital (Shock trauma) instituting some terrible scrub color (pink?) so people wouldn't steal them and then the nasty scrubs becoming paradoxically cool.

What I wonder is -- do the fake long coaters have no hesitation? I mean you show up and you are shadowing the chaplain's intern or you are carrying piss from the ER to the lab and you are given a long white coat. WTF?



Also, I have decided that the more letters you insist on putting after your name the less you can actually help me with things. Some of these APNs manage to squeeze in about every letter in the alphabet with certifications.

One small point of contention I think having "RN, BSN" is a forgivable sin because there is a whole hell of a lot of educational difference between an RN/LPN and a BSN...

 

[Jamers]

Who knows why people do this? Where I went to med school everyone wore long white coats (janitors, nurses, chaplains, transporters, cafeteria staff) except med students.

It is truly hilarious when you get to thinking about it. I heard an annecdote about a hospital (Shock trauma) instituting some terrible scrub color (pink?) so people wouldn't steal them and then the nasty scrubs becoming paradoxically cool.

What I wonder is -- do the fake long coaters have no hesitation? I mean you show up and you are shadowing the chaplain's intern or you are carrying piss from the ER to the lab and you are given a long white coat. WTF?



Also, I have decided that the more letters you insist on putting after your name the less you can actually help me with things. Some of these APNs manage to squeeze in about every letter in the alphabet with certifications.

One small point of contention I think having "RN, BSN" is a forgivable sin because there is a whole hell of a lot of educational difference between an RN/LPN and a BSN...

I heard an annecdote about a hospital (Shock trauma) instituting some terrible scrub color (pink?) so people wouldn't steal them and then the nasty scrubs becoming paradoxically cool. --> this happened in an episode of Scrubs minus the becoming cool part.

As for the letters after your name, I don't know where the trend started but it needs to stop. I had a professor one time that used to title his lectures (name), PHD/EMT/CNA/CPA. I mean, honestly, what does this prove? Should I sign my name Jamers MSIII/MPH/BS/High School Diploma/Driver's License/Blood Donor?

 

[csmmedic]

I think it's sad that the most important symbol of a physician has been hijacked by every Joe GED who works in the hospital. I can't even tell who is a physician and who is a "Diabetic Counselor" or "Doctor of Sanitation Engineering". Most of the time the part of the coat with someones credentials is obscured by a name tag.
Physicians as a group have done a piss poor job of protecting the profession of medicine. Everyone calls themselves a doctor these days and everyone wears a white coat. While it might not matter much to us, the patient is left completely clueless and we end up being tarnished by things non-MDs do in the clinical settings.

It will soon require a doctorate in sanitation engineering to take out a trash from patient rooms. I hear they are pushing for clinical masters within the next few months....

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I heard an annecdote about a hospital (Shock trauma) instituting some terrible scrub color (pink?) so people wouldn't steal them and then the nasty scrubs becoming paradoxically cool. --> this happened in an episode of Scrubs minus the becoming cool part.

As for the letters after your name, I don't know where the trend started but it needs to stop. I had a professor one time that used to title his lectures (name), PHD/EMT/CNA/CPA. I mean, honestly, what does this prove? Should I sign my name Jamers MSIII/MPH/BS/High School Diploma/Driver's License/Blood Donor?

At John H Stroger Hospital of Cook County, all OR scrubs are pink and from a ScrubEx machine. They are really tight about their scrubs. If only they were tight about the rest of their resources, they might be in the black.

 

[Farmer Jane]

One small point of contention I think having "RN, BSN" is a forgivable sin because there is a whole hell of a lot of educational difference between an RN/LPN and a BSN...

Just an FYI: there is no such thing as an RN/LPN.

An LPN has no degree. It is a one year program to be a technical nurse. Expect for a few holdouts in hospitals, they generally work in a doctor's office, or a nursing home passing meds and such.

RNs can have either an associate's degree (ADN or ASN) or a bachelor's degree (BSN). The RN is the license, not the degree. In the hospital setting there is no difference between ADNs and BSNs. The educational difference is that BSNs have taken liberals arts and sciences, just like any other bachelor's degree, and there are a few nursing courses on leadership and community health, that ADNs have not taken. The license itself, and the role they play in the hospital, is the same.

 

[87138]

Just an FYI: there is no such thing as an RN/LPN.

An LPN has no degree. It is a one year program to be a technical nurse. Expect for a few holdouts in hospitals, they generally work in a doctor's office, or a nursing home passing meds and such.

RNs can have either an associate's degree (ADN or ASN) or a bachelor's degree (BSN). The RN is the license, not the degree. In the hospital setting there is no difference between ADNs and BSNs. The educational difference is that BSNs have taken liberals arts and sciences, just like any other bachelor's degree, and there are a few nursing courses on leadership and community health, that ADNs have not taken. The license itself, and the role they play in the hospital, is the same.

I don't think he or she was implying it was a combined or dual title. It was simply a way to say "RN or LPN."

Carry on.

 

[MSKalltheway]

I heard an annecdote about a hospital (Shock trauma) instituting some terrible scrub color (pink?) so people wouldn't steal them and then the nasty scrubs becoming paradoxically cool.

They need to take that nice shade of pink and make it less see-through Dont really enjoy knowing what color undies people wore.

 

[Farmer Jane]

I don't think he or she was implying it was a combined or dual title. It was simply a way to say "RN or LPN."

Carry on.

He said there was a difference between the education of an RN/LPN and a BSN. A BSN is an RN. There is a significant difference between an RN and an LPN.

 

[87138]

He said there was a difference between the education of an RN/LPN and a BSN. A BSN is an RN. There is a significant difference between an RN and an LPN.

I think I misread his post. And indeed, there certainly is a big difference between an RN and an LPN.

 

[jake2]

I can't hate on the nurses too much for the alphabet soup on their name tags. Sure, to me it looks pretty silly, but I'll sure as hell be putting MD, PhD on my name tag although the PhD pretty much has nothing to do with patient care. Docs who are fellows of some college usually put FACS/FACP/FACR/whatever on their name tags or white coats, though that doesn't really add much other than verifying that they are bad-asses.

So if in nurse world having all that stuff on their tags helps them win the respect of other nurses, what they hell, doesn't affect me at all. As I know what none of the acronyms stand for it's not going to impress me, and in fact to me it actually looks a little insecure, but doesn't seem to hurt anyone so what the hell.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Sorry for the confusion. I just meant that there is a big difference between an RN who has a BSN on the one hand and an associate's degree nurse or an LPN on the other.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Sorry for the confusion. I just meant that there is a big difference between an RN who has a BSN on the one hand and an associate's degree nurse or an LPN on the other.

You're still confused. There is not much difference between a RN with a BSN and a RN with an ADN. They are both RNs, have the same license, roles and responsibilities.

An LPN has no degree, and they usually do not work in hospitals. They are not able to do higher level assessments needed to make decisions about acutely ill patients, as RNs must do. There is a difference between RNs and LPNs. There is very little difference between BSN-RNs and ADN-RNs. The difference is a few liberal arts and nursing leadership classes.

 

[Depakote]

I'd like to propose a motion...

As long coats are no longer exclusive to physicians, we should re-market ourselves. Let's switch from coats to capes. Loss of pockets may be accounted for by the addition of an optional utility belt.

 

[Kedan]

I'd like to propose a motion...

As long coats are no longer exclusive to physicians, we should re-market ourselves. Let's switch from coats to capes. Loss of pockets may be accounted for by the addition of an optional utility belt.

Seconded.

Although maybe we should do something ridiculous like wear blue and green polka dots then in a year when the entire world is wearing the same thing we just stop and laugh at them.