NMBE sells out the medical profession to the nurses

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Making Room For 'Dr. Nurse'
April 2, 2008; Page D1

As the shortage of primary-care physicians mounts, the nursing profession is offering a possible solution: the "doctor nurse."

More than 200 nursing schools have established or plan to launch doctorate of nursing practice programs to equip graduates with skills the schools say are equivalent to primary-care physicians. The two-year programs, including a one-year residency, create a "hybrid practitioner" with more skills, knowledge and training than a nurse practitioner with a master's degree, says Mary Mundinger, dean of New York's Columbia University School of Nursing. She says DNPs are being trained to have more focus than doctors on coordinating care among many specialists and health-care settings.

To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care plans to announce Wednesday that the National Board of Medical Examiners has agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license. The board will begin administering the exam this fall. By 2015, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing aims to make the doctoral degree the standard for all new advanced practice nurses, including nurse practitioners.

But some physician groups warn that blurring the line between doctors and nurses will confuse patients and jeopardize care. Nurses with doctorates use DrNP after their name, and can also use the designation Dr. as a title. Physician groups want DNPs to be required to clearly state to patients and prospective students that they are not medical doctors. "Nurses with an advanced degree are not the same as doctors who have been to medical school," says Roger Moore, incoming president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists.

"With four years of medical school and three years of residency training, physicians' understanding of complex medical issues and clinical expertise is unequaled," adds James King, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians. While nurses with advanced degrees play an important role in delivering care, Dr. King says they should work as part of a physician-directed team.

Although there are no precise statistics on the number of nurses with doctorates because the programs are relatively new, there are about 1,874 DNP students currently enrolled in programs nationwide, up from 862 students in 2006, according to the American Association of Colleges of Nursing.

Nurses have increasingly been moving into more specialized and advanced roles over the past few decades. Advanced-practice nurses include specialists in fields such as nurse midwives and nurse anesthetists, and there are now more than 125,000 nurse practitioners in the U.S. Nurse practitioners in some states are required to work with or be supervised by physicians, but often have independent practices in family medicine, adult care, pediatrics and oncology.

A study led by Columbia's Dr. Mundinger and published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2000 showed comparable patient outcomes in patients randomly assigned to nurse practitioners and primary-care physicians.

Nurse practitioners fear the doctoral programs might be raising the bar too high for their profession. The American Academy of Nurse Practitioners says it supports access to a higher educational degree for nurses, but wants to ensure that members won't be marginalized or required to go back to school for a costly advanced degree. Nurse practitioners can write prescriptions, are eligible for Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement, and often act as the primary health-care provider for their patients.

"Nurse practitioners with master's degrees are already filling the primary-care shortages and providing quality, cost-effective care, many times in places that physicians are unwilling to practice," says Wendy Vogel, a nurse practitioner specializing in oncology at Blue Ridge Medical Specialists in Bristol, Tenn. There are "as yet no data to support the need for increasing the amount of education required to practice in this role," she says.

With an acute shortage of nurses, some medical professionals worry that the doctoral programs, with promises of higher-paying jobs and prestige, will lure more nurses away from the critical tasks of day-to-day bedside care.

But program proponents say they could help bring more nurses into the profession by increasing the number of faculty candidates to train a new generation of nurses. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that more than one million new and replacement nurses will be needed by 2016. Still, nursing schools had to turn away 40,285 qualified applicants to bachelor's and graduate nursing programs in 2007 in part because of an insufficient number of faculty, according to the American Association of Colleges of Nursing.

Dr. Mundinger, of Columbia, says the primary aim of the DNP is not to usurp the role of the physician, but to deal with the fact that there simply won't be enough of them to care for patients with increasingly complex care needs. As doctors face shrinking insurance reimbursements and rising malpractice-insurance costs, more medical students are forsaking primary care for specialty practices with higher incomes and more predictable hours. As a result, there could be a shortfall ranging from 85,000 to 200,000 primary-care physicians by 2020, according to various estimates.

In addition to training in diagnostic and treatment skills, doctors of nursing practice can have hospital admitting privileges, coordinate care among specialists, help patients with preventive care, evaluate their social and family situations, and manage complex illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease, says Dr. Mundinger, who has been leading the effort behind the National Board of Medical Examiners' planned certification exam.

A spokeswoman for the medical licensing board, which provides examinations used by licensing authorities for several health professions, says the planned DNP exam will be narrower in scope than the three-step exam that doctors take, including tests on organ systems and a range of medical disciplines. A number of physicians have supported the efforts to advance nursing to the doctorate level through the Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care.

All nurses currently are licensed by the state in which they practice and are certified by specialty groups. The planned certification exam won't be a requirement for licensing of DNPs, and it is too early to say whether it will catch on broadly as a desirable credential for practice. Jeanette Lancaster, president of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing says "we are keeping an open mind as to whether it will add another level of validation of competency."

Columbia University's Columbia Advanced Practice Nurse Associates, which includes several DNPs, has for several years been taking care of patients with complex illnesses, working with medical doctors and specialists affiliated with the university. Judith Gleason, a 76-year-old writer and researcher, says she became a patient of the practice after her family physician died. Now, she counts one of Columbia's DNPs as her primary physician.

Ms. Gleason says she liked the practice's emphasis on preventive care. More significantly, when she complained of a throbbing headache on one side of her head, Edwidge Thomas, a doctor of nursing practice, noticed something in her blood test that indicated a form of rheumatic infection linked to her arthritis. The diagnosis was confirmed when Ms. Gleason was referred to a neurologist, who prescribed medication. "They are patient-oriented, and they always pick up the pieces, so to speak," says Ms. Gleason. "Edwidge is my primary-care provider now."

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So does this mean I can take this test and skip Steps 1-3? :rolleyes:

What concessions did the medical groups get out of the nurses to allow this to happen? If the nurses are going to take a test given by medical examiners, why aren't they overseen by the medical boards?
 
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Holy freaking cow. Why are we in medical school?
 
ouch!!!!!:eek::eek:

Well, that should more med students to rewarding careers in primary care, so that after all the sweat, blood and tears, they'll end up on the same level and making as much as nurses! :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:

:scared::scared::scared:

just ouch :scared::scared:
 
Lord help us all........

QFT.

The bat****iest person I know is an NP who gave up a full ride to med school b/c her husband didn't want her to go. Now she's involved in this DNP thing... I think it's so she can be equal with a guy who dumped her when he found out that she was still married. He's an attending surgeon.

People are o_O
 
QFT.

The bat****iest person I know is an NP who gave up a full ride to med school b/c her husband didn't want her to go. Now she's involved in this DNP thing... I think it's so she can be equal with a guy who dumped her when he found out that she was still married. He's an attending surgeon.

People are o_O

DNP will never = MD (or even close), at least in my mind.

I don't really get it... why is this needed? If you want more doctors, open more medical schools. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school like the rest of us. Seriously, this online business rivals Stewart U.
 
DNP will never = MD (or even close), at least in my mind.

I don't really get it... why is this needed? If you want more doctors, open more medical schools. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school like the rest of us. Seriously, this online business rivals Stewart U.

Me neither.

Open more spots in med schools. Work your a$$ off and get one.

Allo kids who don't make the cut for whatever get put in fp/gp/whatever. FMGs/DO get pushed out- DO's have their own residencies, so IDC. Midlevels are midlevels for a reason, and I think that the lines need to be redrawn- pushed back.
 
Med schools will increase enrollment by 30% by 2012 over 2004 levels.

However, this action by the NBME essentially rubberstamps the nurses' position that DNP's are indeed equivalent to physicians. You will hear chatter about how they "passed the same test" as we did.

Be prepared to call that DNP your equal colleague.
 
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If anything, this will push more physicians out of primary care and into specialties so that they wont be on the same level as a doctor nurse who took 39 hours of biostat and econ.
39 hours! 1st yr of med school alone is 70 hrs at my school.
 
Now that they've accomplished the first step of creating a test that they will no doubt claim to the equivalent to the USMLE Steps 1-3, the nurses will move to their next step.

They will next try to enter the medical residencies. First, IM and FP, but I can imagine eventually nearly all of the non-surgical fields. Or they will create their own residencies which they will claim are equivalent to the medical ones.
 
Now that they've accomplished the first step of creating a test that they will no doubt claim to the equivalent to the USMLE Steps 1-3, the nurses will move to their next step.

My Question is what can we do? What is our profession doing about this? I am really surprised.
 
I liked that DrNP curriculum the first time I saw it when it was called and MPH.
 
Anyone else fine with this? Two generations ago this would barely have been less than the level of education a doctor got. If medical costs and requirements keep going up. I´m all in favor of the idea of empowering new midlevel caregivers to do more.

People here seem to be getting the wrong idea about this. It´s not that nurses are becoming acknowledged as equivalent to doctors, it´s that HMO style primary care is becoming acknowledged as beneath doctors.
 
Be prepared to call that DNP your equal colleague.

:laugh:

Tell us another good one.

(I'm not saying ALL DNP's... but seriously, I can't quite understand why this is happening... no wonder no one over the age of 55 knows who (and what degree that "who" holds) they're even being treated by anymore :eek:. Let the doctors be the doctors and do the doctors' work.)
 
I can't remember the last time I went to the doctor and actually saw a doctor. It makes me sorry for all the patients in the hospital who think they see eight highly qualified specialists per day and haven't even seen one actual doctor.

I made the mistake of looking up PA training last week. Two years!!! I was pretty shocked at the level of care they can provide with only two years of training. Yet another reason to wonder why I'm in medical school....;)

I don't have a lot of knowledge about the getting-an-actual-job aspect of medicine yet, but I wonder how the growth of PAs and NPs has altered the availability of hospitalist positions for MDs.
 
These programs are a joke. There's one offered by my school that consists mainly of "web-based learning."


Pfff...


http://www.utmem.edu/nursing/academic programs/DNP/

Amazing to me how many people, unfamiliar with education, think that web-based means a lessor method of learning. Both my "brick and mortar" grad programs taught me to function independently and could have been taught via the web (one now is). The clinical is the same whether it's a brick and mortar or web-based program, for God's sake.

I've taken many web-based courses and hope I never have to sit in a classroom again!!
 
This is really appalling. DNP and MD will never be equivalent and Mundinger knows it. If she really thought the DNP training was just as good, she would fight for NP's to be allowed to take Steps 1-3. She would fight for them to be admitted into FP residencies. Instead, she is fighting for an exam "based on the same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license." Kind of like how my Cliff's notes were based on The Odyssey in 10th grade.
 
If they end up being competent, they will succeed. If not, they'll be sued out of the profession. What I wonder is whether they'll be able to make enough money to afford the malpractice premiums, since they'll now be exposed to the same level of legal liability.
 
stop flipping out. there is NO way, with a curriculum like the one posted earlier, that these DNPs could replace physicians. The skills and training are nowhere even close to equal, these programs are not teaching clinical skills, so were not out of our primary care jobs just yet people. In fact highly skilled nurse-doctors or whatever theyre called might just take some of the scut and paperwork off of our shoulders so we can focus on the medicine. And as far as effect on physician salaries goes, well, if you went into primary care then that wasnt your chief motivator anyway was it?
 
"Complex diagnosis, treatment, and management of patients in the hospital or ER"

Will they be able to perform like a physician? Maybe. I guess we'll see. The way I understand it, the DNP will be filling more of a professional/research/administrative/leadership role in health institutions, and then some will be more practice focused, but mainly it is just more education for the career minded nurse who wants to "professionalize" themselves into oblivion (or into a primary care role).

This claim that the DNP will engage in "complex diagnosis of hospital and ER patients" though, is a little crazy.

Here is one list of DNP goals: http://www.utmem.edu/nursing/academic%20programs/DNP/

1 Demonstrate advanced levels of clinical judgment/scholarship in nursing practice;
2 critically analyze complex clinical situations and practice systems;
3 evaluate and apply conceptual models, theories, and research in order to improve health care of diverse populations;
4 systematically investigate a clinically focused area of nursing in order to advance health care;
5 analyze the social, economic, political, and policy components of health care systems which affect care planning and delivery;
6 assume leadership roles in the development of clinical practice models, health policy, and standards of care;
7 integrate professional values and ethical decision-making in advanced nursing practice.

This is worlds apart from what an MD intensivist, hospitalist, or ER physician does, and to say a DNP is going to be prepared to practice this kind of medicine is a joke. BSN, then masters, then 2 years DNP and a "1 year residency" - I don't see where you develop the clinical skills. It seems like a lot of time learning "soft" stuff in a classroom. From the description of a DNP it seems like they would walk out of their 1 year residency onto the floor and be laughed at by the MD's. However, they could do very well as outpatient practitioners.
 
I for one will never call a nurse "Doctor." Advanced degree or not.


Realistically, if we sit down and define their role within the medical system and set clear boundaries with penalties for insubordination so they can't have what the military calls "mission creep" I do not mind them being the primary care providers. Unfortunately, however, what is really being proposed here is a parallel pathway to achieving MD privileges (much like DO or foreign graduates).
 
I am a nursing student getting my masters degree right now. I hope to eventually get my DNP. Let me clarify a few misconceptions you all seem to have.
1. I do not want to be a doctor. I had the grades, experience, classes, etc. for med school, but I chose nursing school for very specific reasons. I spend 12 hours a day with a few patients, as opposed to a few minutes a day with many patients. Nursing is taught more holistically, and we are taught to treat the patient, not the disease. I respect doctors and am amazed at the amount of school they go through. I will never think myself comparable to a doctor in regards to diagnosis or knowledge about diseases. Essentially, I chose nursing because I care less about the actual disease and simply want to help people get better.

2. DNP students have their own types of clinicals, and will never try to get in on medical students residencies.

3. Will there is a vast difference in many aspects of education, nurses learn the same patho and pharm type things. Those classess are intense for us as well and while we cannot legally make diagnoses, we do understand the underlying pathophysiology of diseases.

4. DNPs are not out to replace doctors. We are trying to help. Although a DNP can be called "dr," all the DNP's I know specify to patients that they are a nurse with advanced education and not an MD.

5. DNPs get far more education that PAs

6. We get out clinical skills during our education. Starting from semester 1, we (ALL nursing students, not just DNPs) are in the hospital working 8-12 hour shifts several days a week. We also have labs, and at my school a simulation lab which reinforces our clinical skills. So yes, we get our clinical skills. In fact, at this time, I am far for more competent clinically than my 2nd year med student boyfriend.

7. We will never get paid the same as an MD, nor do we expect to. We will never replace an MD, nor do we expect to.


Instead of bashing DNPs, or nurses at all, try collaborating with us. Our goal is the same, help patients. So instead of fighting, show respect to all healthcare professionals. In this day and age, its all about collaborative care.
 
I am a nursing student getting my masters degree right now. I hope to eventually get my DNP. Let me clarify a few misconceptions you all seem to have.
1. I do not want to be a doctor. I had the grades, experience, classes, etc. for med school, but I chose nursing school for very specific reasons. I spend 12 hours a day with a few patients, as opposed to a few minutes a day with many patients. Nursing is taught more holistically, and we are taught to treat the patient, not the disease. I respect doctors and am amazed at the amount of school they go through. I will never think myself comparable to a doctor in regards to diagnosis or knowledge about diseases. Essentially, I chose nursing because I care less about the actual disease and simply want to help people get better.

Maybe you don't, but the people who started this thing very much do. Also, that whole "IDK about the dx, just the fuzzy ****"? Gag me with a spoon.

2. DNP students have their own types of clinicals, and will never try to get in on medical students residencies.

Um. I think allo have heard that before, yes?

3. Will there is a vast difference in many aspects of education, nurses learn the same patho and pharm type things. Those classess are intense for us as well and while we cannot legally make diagnoses, we do understand the underlying pathophysiology of diseases.

Making dx =/= understanding pathphysio.

4. DNPs are not out to replace doctors. We are trying to help. Although a DNP can be called "dr," all the DNP's I know specify to patients that they are a nurse with advanced education and not an MD.

Again, a YMMV. I suspect more will go with the Dr title = being an MD/Do kind of Dr. Certainly most of the NP's I know would jump at the chance- I can think of one off the top of my head who wouldn't.

5. DNPs get far more education that PAs

I don't know what the point of this is. If you're BSN/RN to Masters= NP, then... yes you've spent more time in school?

6. We get out clinical skills during our education. Starting from semester 1, we (ALL nursing students, not just DNPs) are in the hospital working 8-12 hour shifts several days a week. We also have labs, and at my school a simulation lab which reinforces our clinical skills. So yes, we get our clinical skills. In fact, at this time, I am far for more competent clinically than my 2nd year med student boyfriend.

He's not expected to be clinically competent. I thought nurses were supposed to be around to do ancillary things like giving meds that had been ordered by MD/DO's etc... (a very basic ex, but you get my point)

7. We will never get paid the same as an MD, nor do we expect to. We will never replace an MD, nor do we expect to.

You are already encroaching on MD/DO territory. The theory behind the DNP was to do just that.

Instead of bashing DNPs, or nurses at all, try collaborating with us. Our goal is the same, help patients. So instead of fighting, show respect to all healthcare professionals. In this day and age, its all about collaborative care.

Maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe we need to go back to a hierarchy. Maybe there's a difference between being a healthcare professional and being a healthcare paraprofessional. Maybe we should recognise it.
 
I am a nursing student getting my masters degree right now. I hope to eventually get my DNP. Let me clarify a few misconceptions you all seem to have.
1. I do not want to be a doctor. I had the grades, experience, classes, etc. for med school, but I chose nursing school for very specific reasons. I spend 12 hours a day with a few patients, as opposed to a few minutes a day with many patients. Nursing is taught more holistically, and we are taught to treat the patient, not the disease. I respect doctors and am amazed at the amount of school they go through. I will never think myself comparable to a doctor in regards to diagnosis or knowledge about diseases. Essentially, I chose nursing because I care less about the actual disease and simply want to help people get better.
People say this a lot. I'm never quite sure if they realize what it takes to get into medical school. Almost no one is a sure shot these days.

2. DNP students have their own types of clinicals, and will never try to get in on medical students residencies.

3. Will there is a vast difference in many aspects of education, nurses learn the same patho and pharm type things. Those classess are intense for us as well and while we cannot legally make diagnoses, we do understand the underlying pathophysiology of diseases.
I think this is great in theory, but if nursing students are spending 8-12 hours on clinicals, there is simply no way that their training in pathology, pathophys, and pharmacology is as intense as medical students.

4. DNPs are not out to replace doctors. We are trying to help. Although a DNP can be called "dr," all the DNP's I know specify to patients that they are a nurse with advanced education and not an MD.

5. DNPs get far more education that PAs

6. We get out clinical skills during our education. Starting from semester 1, we (ALL nursing students, not just DNPs) are in the hospital working 8-12 hour shifts several days a week. We also have labs, and at my school a simulation lab which reinforces our clinical skills. So yes, we get our clinical skills. In fact, at this time, I am far for more competent clinically than my 2nd year med student boyfriend.
The nursing students who visit the teaching hospital at which I have spent time are there for a maximum of 4 hours a day, 2-3 times a week. Never 8-12 hours, but I assume this is one of those things that can vary according to your curriculum. A friend who got a BSN at a state university also didn't start clinical until her 3rd year of college.

Sure, you are more clinically competent than a 2nd year. The first two years of medical school are devoted almost entirely to book learning, hence why our foundation of physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology is so extensive. We then spend our third and fourth years almost exclusively in clinical settings. I'm a third year, and at this point I've worked 8-18 hours/day for the last 9 months. The learning curve is steep.

7. We will never get paid the same as an MD, nor do we expect to. We will never replace an MD, nor do we expect to.


Instead of bashing DNPs, or nurses at all, try collaborating with us. Our goal is the same, help patients. So instead of fighting, show respect to all healthcare professionals. In this day and age, its all about collaborative care.

You have to understand that as we lose more and more of our practice to midlevels, physicians are going to get territorial and protective. It's only natural. And it starts to look a lot like the nursing field is trying to "take over" when they ask our licensing board to write their licensing exam!
 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPpPcg26M2Q&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]
 
I have a friend whose mom is an NP with 12 years experience. She was talking about working at a student health clinic, mostly dealing with STD's. She had a student come in with questions about HPV. Her only response was "I don't know very much about HPV."

Personally I can wax poetic about the different subtypes, which ones the vaccine covers, the percentage of cervical ca that is estimated to come from the subtypes not covered by the vaccine, the estimated HPV infection rates, etc. Can someone like this take a few online classes as linked above and perfrom like an MD? I guarantee you the average FP/ ObGyn can answer all of those questions.
 
In what states do DNPs actually have admitting privileges as the WSJ's credulous regurgitation of DNP propaganda suggests? I understand in NYC they twisted Columbia's arm to allow it. Are there really many others? They certainly do not anywhere in my major metropolitan city.
 
After you get your BA in nursing you have to work in the field for about 3 years before you can apply to be an RN. Then thats 2 more years to get your RN and then its 3 more years for you Dr.P. Count the years up... thats 12 years of experience were as a physician in family practice only gets 7. Now thats intense 7years but I've been in enough clinical settings to know that most of the time there is a large number of standard cases.

I personally think if you are willing to put in that kind of time then you deserve the right to be called Dr. how ever you choose to get there and if their programs don't cut it and they don't get the education they need, then the programs will fail and we won't need to worry about them. But if they are effective, they maybe we need to get off our high horses.
 
3. Will there is a vast difference in many aspects of education, nurses learn the same patho and pharm type things. Those classess are intense for us as well and while we cannot legally make diagnoses, we do understand the underlying pathophysiology of diseases.
No, the classes are not as intense, and you are not taught anywhere near the same level of pathophys. I know this become I am married to a nurse who has not had anywhere near the level of pathology, pharmacology or physiology that I have had.

So yes, we get our clinical skills. In fact, at this time, I am far for more competent clinically than my 2nd year med student boyfriend.
Hmmm, so the guy who has never been taught any clinical skills doesn't know any? Interesting.

Instead of bashing DNPs, or nurses at all, try collaborating with us. Our goal is the same, help patients. So instead of fighting, show respect to all healthcare professionals. In this day and age, its all about collaborative care.
I'd like to help patients as well, and I think the best way to do so is to have the appropriate individuals in appropriate roles. I don't believe that a nurse's education is geared towards diagnosis, so I don't believe a nurse should be making the diagnosis. We should collaborate and complement each other's work, yes, but a DNP is a poor notion.
 
NBME just wants to make more money. "Step 1-3 equivalent". Yeah, ok. Why not just take the Steps then?

Ultimately, they can charge another grand or so with a new demographic for their Step A-C with a nice little premium for developing such a rigorous test, ally themselves with the unionized nurses, and get good publicity. I'm pretty sure they could care less what medical doctors think.
 
After you get your BA in nursing you have to work in the field for about 3 years before you can apply to be an RN. Then thats 2 more years to get your RN and then its 3 more years for you Dr.P. Count the years up... thats 12 years of experience were as a physician in family practice only gets 7. Now thats intense 7years but I've been in enough clinical settings to know that most of the time there is a large number of standard cases.
Your understanding of a nursing degree is tenuous. It's usually (always?) a BS in nursing, and they get their RN upon graduation, not after another two years. Secondly, on-the-job experience is not the same as active education like residency, and you can't include all four years of college for a nurse and then not include them for the physician, so your comparison should actually be 7 years for the nurse and 11 years for the physician. Furthermore, the rigor of the first two years of med school is significantly greater than that of nursing school. Residency is also easily 60-80 hours a week, so that's like 6 years of residency training. :D
 
Market forces at play. Rising healthcare costs have supported the rise of allied healthcare practioners. This is simply the next step in the direction of general practice. There'll probably be more programs to build on the ones already in the direction of specialization. I don't expect this trend to slow down especially since it makes the NBME more money and results in "cheaper" [as in cheaper to educate and train] substitutes for the primary care physician.

The debate will rage on about whether they are adequately educated, trained, etc. to no avail. The market will always win out and right now the issue is rising healthcare costs. Tort reform legislation will continue to be passed making it harder to sue, win, and limit the awards on med mal lawsuits.

I don't expect any of this to go away, only to increase despite efforts from physicians. Market forces are simply too great and managed care has been tried with little long term success.

My advice to those currently in medical school is to become as specialized as possible. The more specialized and esoteric you become the more likely it is that you will dominate the market segment since you won't be replaced by a cheaper substitute (e.g. nurse anesthetist). Good luck.
 
1. The NBME screwed us way more when they implemented an 8 hour, $1200 English proficiency test.

2. Don't think for one moment that if this DNP thing takes off that these DNPs will be content in primary care. Next in the gunsights will be Anesthesiology, EM, and probably Gyn (w/o Ob).

3. I think there are some serious ethical issues here surrounding patient understanding of who their healthcare provider is. If the man/woman walks into the room in a long white coat and introduces themself as doctor I have no doubt that many patients will think "this person is an MD/DO." The competancy of the practitioner is, I would argue, of secondary importance to the patient's perception of to whom they are speaking.

4. Might have already been touched on but will these DNPs be independantly targetable in malpractice suits?
 
I don't really get it... why is this needed? If you want more doctors, open more medical schools. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school like the rest of us. Seriously, this online business rivals Stewart U.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Yes the number of medical students is increasing but to actually increase the number of doctors entering the workforce we need the gov't to increase the number of residency positions (which I think hasn't been done since like the 80s). It is their call because resident salaries come from medicare. The only thing training more students without training more residents means is a) fewer FMGs getting US residencies or b) more US students not getting residencies.

soeagerun2or said:
I for one will never call a nurse "Doctor." Advanced degree or not.

Personally this isn't really that important to me. I called my undergrad chemistry professors "Doctor."


Seriously folks, I'm not sure I totally disagree with this concept. The point of the article is after all based on a critical truth, most med students are shying away from primary care and we have a shortage we cannot fill through the traditional pathway. My PCP is an NP and I think she does a good job. So why not give this a try and if they suck we will think of something else or the market will shut them down for us. This is a concept called capitalism.

I will concede that if anyone is getting hosed it is the MD going into primary care. Since that's not me I am obviously biased.
 
Because once again WE ARE AVOIDING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM! Why in the world is there shortage of primary care docs? Because medicare and insurance companies in suit pay more for procedures than prevention. If you fix this reimbursement problem, I know many medical students would go into family medicine. But no, there will be no remedy for the actual cause of the problem, so instead we open more medical schools, dilute medicine by giving nurses doctor priviledges, give PAs way more privledges than they deserve...it just gets worse and worse.

And CuriousGeorgia, although you feel like nursing school is rigorous, its simply because its the hardest thing you have ever done. Every former nurse that is my classmate attests to the fact that nursing school is absolutely nothing like medical school. Let's get serious...this is just a stepping stone to nurse orthopods, and nurse dermatologists, and nurse radialogists.
 
If you don't think this is worth fighting for, think of what this will mean for medical care in America.

DNP's will replace FP's and internists. What student in his right mind will bust his *** to get into medical school, do 7 years of education, accumulate 250,000 in debt, and finally get licensed just to share the same title, responsibility, and salary as a DNP. No, those interested in primary care will now go to nursing school. Why would you waste your time and money getting an MD when a DNP gets you the same job? Are we ok with leaving primary care to DNPs?

I will concede that if anyone is getting hosed it is the MD going into primary care. Since that's not me I am obviously biased.

This is pretty short sighted. All allopath's should be outraged that DNP's want to be considered equivalent to MD's whatever the specialty. Trust me, whatever you want to get into is next. If a DNP is equivalent to an MD, what barrier is there to stop them from moving into cards, anesthesia, endocrine, ob/gyn, or derm (GOD FORBID!). If we don't all stand up and fight for PCP's, who will fight for you when thousands of new "doctors" want to take over your specialty with less schooling for less salary. When Mundinger comes out with a new study showing that NP's provide equivalent cardiology management to cardiologists, should we all just say "oh cardiologists are getting hosed, but I'm in radiology so what do i care?"?
 
First, they need to make this test available to PA's as well. In essence, it should serve to certify that a midlevel has appropriate knowledge base. Second, they should create questions totally separate from the USMLE's. They shouldn't pull questions directly out of our steps. Otherwise, you'll for sure hear DNP's say that they took and passed the same test as doctors. If they do these two steps, that will blunt the effect of allowing DNP's to take our test.

Any of you guys who thinks that this is the end is naive. The nurses are not done. Like I said before, their ultimate goals are:
1) equal level of reimbursement
2) equal hospital privileges
3) access to the residencies. Since residencies are funded by Medicare, they will lobby their congresspeople to let them. FP, IM, derm, psych, ie, the non-surgical fields, are the first ones targeted. If they can't get into a medical residency, then they create their own and say that they are equivalent. Can you imagine what would happen to derm for example if you have board-certified DNP's who graduated from nursing derm residencies?

My solution:
1) don't hire NP's or DNP's. Hire PA's and AA's
2) pressure the AMA and all the medical organizations to wake up and protect the future of our profession!!!!!!
 
1) don't hire NP's or DNP's. Hire PA's and AA's
2) pressure the AMA and all the medical organizations to wake up and protect the future of our profession!!!!!!

What's an AA?

The medical orgs need to get b!tch-slapped. We're smart, we're tough, we're supposedly the future of medicine. Can we please stop whining and start working together to fix this?
 
Any of you guys who thinks that this is the end is naive. The nurses are not done.

Amen. 30 years ago it would have been unthinkable that nurses would be called "doctor" and have prescribing and admitting powers. Now it's unthinkable that nurses will perform surgery or be subspecialists. See what happens. Let's stand up for ourselves, our profession, and most importantly our patients before it's too late.
 
Anesthesiology assistants. They compete with CRNA's and fall under the board of medicine.

Gack.

What happened to anesthesiologists? Do they still exist?

I mean, I get AA's- basically ancillary, right? I'm cool with that. Sometimes you need an extra hand or seven.
 
What happened to anesthesiologists? Do they still exist?

Anesthesiologists sold out their profession to the CRNA's a long time ago. This is the best can do to respond.

Will the rest of medicine resemble anesthesiology and primary care in the future? They will if we sit on our hands and don't do anything about it.

Send a clear and strong message to our leaders!! DON'T HIRE NP'S OR DNP'S.
 
I will concede that if anyone is getting hosed it is the MD going into primary care. Since that's not me I am obviously biased.

I'm not going into primary care either, but your attitude is exactly why you will lose the battles with the NPs long term. Hey genius, how long do you think its gonna be before these DNPs start pushing to get into YOUR specialty? Are you going to sit back then and chirp about how its "just capitalism"?

Please tell me what specialty you are going into. I'll be happy to push the NP agenda forward so they can invade your turf. Then we'll see how cavalier you are about it when you have to do 3 residencies because the NPs keep pushing into your field.
 
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