New Ruling on the NRMP Lawsuit

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Sorry if you took my posts as a personal attack on you or your school. That wasn't my intention and I apologize if you took it that way. However, that doesn't change the fact that raising salaries is not the answer, tempting as it may be. I don't KNOW what the answer is - so you might be justified in saying that I'm just a complainer and a ******.

I will say this: if we have a non-mandatory Match, my opinion (and I have no proof) is that things will get worse. Why? Because medical students will have NO power, versus the power of ranking that they now have. The PDs will get applications, look through the non-Match ones (which will likely be the most qualified people who are confident that they don't need no stinkin' Match). So they get their spots and are happy. The rest of the people - from simply above-average-but-not-spectacular to downright-craptastic - will then go through the Match like they normally do ...but competing for drastically fewer spots.

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My comments weren't directed at you personally. Instead, they are directed at all the nay-sayers. I think everyone would welcome alternatives, but so far I have seen few and a lot of "things are fine". If you think things are fine, let things be but don't stop other people from trying to improve their own life. If you don't think things are fine, nay-saying is not going to make things better. Some people have parental/spousal support for income, while others have other means of supplemental income. However, that still leaves the majority of people who aren't making enough. I say let the lawsuit take its course (as it will) and people will come up with ways to save $$$ overall even if residents get paid more (as the "system" has with the creation of NPs, PAs, use of FMGs, and 80-hr work week all as solutions to previous problems).
 
However, understand this: Say residents start making DOUBLE their current salary. Not only will most programs immediately close their residencies, but the remainder will demand that their residents work twice as hard because they can't afford to hire more residents.


I stand by my earlier post that about all we can predict from an increase in the salary of residents is that the absolute total hours of resident hours consumed by programs would decrease. How that plays out with the total number of resident spots is not clear. Some programs may find it cost-effective to close their residencies, but I doubt that. Medicare pays billions of dollars to teaching hospital for graduate medical education (doctors, nurses, related allied health fields, etc). A few years ago, this was over $6.2 billion dollars. I feel fairly confident in stating that Medicare pays over $3 billion to subsidize resident education each year. I have been told that by administratrive folks in med school and during residency that hospitals get over $100k per resident from the federal government. I wouldn't stake my life on this last number, but I think it is in the ballpark.

Hospitals and programs are free to spend this money how they want. They have a great deal of freedom of how they can spend this money. They use part of it to pay our salaries. Some of it goes to our department's general funds (which is also what happens with a portion of our tuiton money when we were medical students). Before I see a single patient, the hospital has already made money on me. It is in the hospital's financial interest to keep a residency program open if roughly the revenue (i.e. money from Medicare for medical education plus billings by attendings for patients seen by residents) is greater than the cost (resident salary, benefits, etc) of having the residency program.

I am a cynic, and I personally believe that residents are a huge source of profit for hospitals. I do believe that teaching hospitals lose money, but I don't believe those losses are coming from training residents. Training hospital have a higher portion of unisnured patients and Medicare patients. Teaching hospitals collect significantly less on each dollar billed than their counterparts in private practice. I personally believe that teaching hospitals are filled with bureaucracy and bloat. There are attendings who bring in far less for the hospital than what they are paid because of a variety of reasons (spending time doing research not covered by other funds, inefficient, etc.). There are senior surgeons on the payroll in our department that I never see.

Some indirect evidence is what programs have done in response to the 80 hour work week. Now because of ACGME guidelines (80 hours/wk), these same departments who claim they were losing money training residents are able to plunk down $50-100k for PA's to allow them to see the same number patients that they used to see prior to 80 hr/wk rule. How can they do this and not go broke? If we assume only costs to departments have gone up and not their revenue, then it was because programs were making a profit from resident labor. If we are conservative, and assume that programs are breaking even now (I still think they are making money from residents/PA's), then all the cost for PA's is roughly equivalent to profits once generated by residents. Since we work double the hours of PA's, one resident is equivalent to at least 2 PA's in terms of labor. I think residents are more efficient and competent than PA's and that one resident is worth more like 2.5 to 3 PA's. This translates in profit generated by each resident of appoximately 100-200K.


Think LONG TERM, not SHORT TERM - as doctors, we're all capable of being more analytical and less reactionary.

I am not trying to to turn this into an ECON discussion board, although I guess this is what it sounds like. I am just saying that this is a complicated situation without an easy solution. Programs act in their own self-interest, and they will pay no more to residents than they have to and they will close residencies or eliminate positions when they lose money on residents. If forced (by lawsuit, congressional law, collective bargaining, etc.) to pay higher salaries, they will up until the point that residents salaries reduce the net profit per resident to zero. By my off the cuff calculations (based on data from a surgery department), salaries could rise to as much as $100-200k per resident before it makes sense to shut down the residency.

I am not saying that they should pay us this much, but I don't buy the argument that programs will close if our salaries rose to $80k. Even at that salary, we are a source of profit.


I will say this: if we have a non-mandatory Match, my opinion (and I have no proof) is that things will get worse.

I agree. As much as programs love a superstar, I personally think what matters more to them is avoiding truly bad residents. If programs want to get superstars under the lawsuits match process, then they might have to pony up and increase their pay. If they just wish to avoid the truly bad residents, then they just have to pay enough to get the average (solid) resident to come to their program, which is probably what they are paying now. I am not saying that programs don't want superstars, but when they have to pay a lot more to get one, then they just might be happy with the average Joe. Secondly, I also feel that many people on residency selection committees hate the job. It is a lot of time and effort to do it well. I honestly believe many programs would be ok with going out of match and filling their slots with the first solid residents they interview if they could get away with drastically reducing the time put in the residency selection process, even if this was at the expense of getting superstars.

I just don't see the incentive for programs to improve working conditions or compensation from the lawsuit. Maybe I am just dense, but I just don't see it. I think we end where we are now in terms of pay, and fourth-year students end up with a residency selection process that leaves them worse off.
 
OK, up front I will say that I have heard that hospitals get a lot to train us than they pay us. Again, I'm in the resident's corner - I would have no problem in making them pay us more from THAT pool. Just realize that has not much to do with the Match, in my opinion. The only thing that letting people go around the Match will do is what I previously wrote - again, only my opinion. Great resident applicants will likely be OK with taking the current pay in return for great training at an elite institution. Others who are not so great or not willing to do so will just have to Match into the remaining spots. And don't even talk about Scramblers - they'll probably be told by PDs, "we'll take you ...IF you agree to work at $15K/yr ...or else you sit out for a year."

I also want to avoid saying "let's just have the government subsidize us more". That mentality of "government money is free" is part of what will destroy medicine. If you shackle yourself to the government - as with Medicare/Medicaid - you submit to their rules, sometimes with disasterous results. Also, the money is not free - it comes from taxes ...and, I don't know about you, but I hate taxes.

So ...if hospitals pay us more from their current subsidies - and assuming those subsidies stay fixed - where does that money come from? Services that are provided currently will probably go out the door. We'll do more scut. As attendings, we'll be pressured even MORE to bill - something that a lot of people already hate about the medical field. This solution may help you in the SHORT term as a resident, but I think as an attending you'll be turning around and saying, "who the hell came up with this? Oh, wait ...that was us! Let's change it back to favor attendings now!"

It's definitely a complicated issue, just like the whole Medicare/Medicaid/health care in general issue.
 
Update.

AMA eVoice Alert said:
AMA eVoice Alert

August 16, 2004

Litigation involving the Match dismissed

A federal judge on Aug. 12 dismissed antitrust claims focused on the National
Resident Matching Program (NRMP), commonly known as the "the Match."

Judge Paul Friedman of the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., stated in
his written opinion that Section 207 of the Pension Funding Equity Act of 2004,
which became law on April 14, precludes continuation of the purported class
action claims by the three plaintiffs. The lawsuit had been filed more than two
years ago.

The NRMP and its organizational sponsors (including the AMA), together with 29
teaching hospitals or residency programs which had been named as representatives
of a class of all similarly positioned residency programs in the U.S., had been
included as defendants. A single overarching antitrust conspiracy among all of
the defendants to improperly constrain resident stipends and to impose unfair
working conditions had been alleged.


Judge Friedman had previously dismissed claims against the AMA in February 2004.

Visit http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/8231.html to learn more about the
NRMP and the litigation.
 
:thumbdown:


So it's over. I guess we should be happy for the priviledge of getting paid at all huh? I wouldn't mind so much if I didn't already have +100,000K in loans. For me, it wouldn't make so much of a difference but don't ask us to not gripe about how much money we make and then fleece us with exorbitant prices of testing and licensing.

MCAT
USMLE 1
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Written Boards
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My written boards this year are about $1300 dollars. On my salary, that's quite a bit.


How about knocking down the costs of med school and these tests? Students already can't write orders, notes, and their written exams are not used so it can't be about billing and liability. Unless their Fam Hx and ROS can be suspect to litigation...which I'm sure some lawyer somewhere is figuring out how to tie in.
 
Judge Paul Friedman of the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., stated in his written opinion that Section 207 of the Pension Funding Equity Act of 2004, which became law on April 14, precludes continuation of the purported class action claims by the three plaintiffs. The lawsuit had been filed more than two years ago.

In case you guys don't know...this is SECTION 207

http://rpc.senate.gov/_files/Apr0604CFRPensionsKH.pdf

A new provision clarifies that the medical school application process is not subject to anti-trust laws.

#1. Since when can a new law made AFTER a lawsuit become retro-active?
and
#2. Applying for residency is not a "medical school application process".

I call bull****...
 
Whodathunkit said:
In case you guys don't know...this is SECTION 207

http://rpc.senate.gov/_files/Apr0604CFRPensionsKH.pdf

A new provision clarifies that the medical school application process is not subject to anti-trust laws.

#1. Since when can a new law made AFTER a lawsuit become retro-active?
and
#2. Applying for residency is not a "medical school application process".

I call bull****...

It's not bull****. Our legislative process is, euphemistically speaking, complicated. A more cynical person would say corrupt and easily manipulated. That little anti-trust exemption for the match was a rider-- basically a trojan horse attached to another bill so that it would get less scrutiny and publicity than if simply offered outright for action. You just attach your potentially controversial legislation onto a totally unrelated measure that is sure to pass and hope not too many people notice.
 
WatchingWaiting said:
It's not bull****. Our legislative process is, euphemistically speaking, complicated. A more cynical person would say corrupt and easily manipulated. That little anti-trust exemption for the match was a rider-- basically a trojan horse attached to another bill so that it would get less scrutiny and publicity than if simply offered outright for action. You just attach your potentially controversial legislation onto a totally unrelated measure that is sure to pass and hope not too many people notice.

This is 100% right, and is done all the time. For instance, of course, this bit has nothing at all to do with pension plans. This is the opitome of "special interest" provision designed to pull the rug out from under potential adversaries to an interest group - in this case organized medicine (as opposed to the constituency we belong to, which is, for lack of a better term, unorganized medicine).

There's no question, of course, that the lawsuit -as filed under the laws that existed at the time - had substantial merit under the anti-trust provisions. But remember, anti-trust laws are inherently hostile to organized business concerns. And in any event because the case was a possible loser for the ACME and the AMA and all those hospitals some VERY SERIOUS lobbying by large business concerns resulted in this sweetheart provision. Notice, by the way, that NO amount of lobbying by the AMA would produce a similarly advantageous provision blocking mid-level practitioner autonomy. Why? Because the AMA is a small fish. Insurance companies and holding company hospitals are the big fish. THESE are the interests that get heard on the Hill.

In any event, the provision is perfectly valid as a bar to this suit. The prohibition against ex post facto laws in the US applies only (generally) to criminal statutes. Congress has enormous power to change the rules any time they want to.

This is big business ****ing the little guys. And in this case, they actually had the laws changed to do it.

Judd
 
you know...I was reading that bill and wondering..."what the hell does this have to do with us"??

Now I see. Man, and you wonder how you can even trust the AMA when they say that they are looking out in the best interest of the residents.

Has anyone else pointed this out and no one really cared?
:confused:
 
The only reason I don't think the lawsuit was a good idea is that residents eventually become attendings. When we become attendings we will want the cheap labor and coverage that residents provide to prop up our salaries.

Otherwise I think more residents would be fighting for this...

The AMA used to be a "big fish" with enormous lobbying power (read the social transformation of American Medicine - paul starr). I wonder what happened?
 
deltamed said:
The AMA used to be a "big fish" with enormous lobbying power (read the social transformation of American Medicine - paul starr). I wonder what happened?

specialty colleges. everyone wants a bigger piece.

--your friendly neighborhood united we stand, divided we fall caveman
 
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