New Ortho Residency at NSU for 2008

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S Files said:
USN charges approx $62,000 to each resident. residents do not receive a stipend.
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Actually we are associated with a hospital, and do in fact receive a stipened.
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nug said:
It seems in the past few years there have been quite a few new ortho programs that have opened their doors. All these programs seem to have quite a few residents in each class as well. eg 8,9,10 residents graduate per year. I heard Colorado has 16 residents per class.:eek:
These programs seem to just set up shop and within a few years they have accreditation.
If this current pace keeps up, in a few years, ortho programs will be as competitive as prostho to get into and the number of orthos will be close to that of general dentists (a little exaggeration but you know what I’m saying)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there already seems to be an over saturation of orthodontists. I’m not just talking major metro areas, but even in towns of like 30,000 there are like 3 or 4 orthodontists.
I’ve heard in dermatology, the governing body does a really good job to limit the supply of dermatologists so all the practicing ones are booked like crazy. Ever try to get in appt with a derm?
It seems like the AAO doesn’t give hoot—or they are completely powerless, one of the two. The demand for ortho is going up but I think the supply is greatly outpacing it. Not only with more and more new ortho grads every year but also with orthodentists (GPs who do ortho). If this keeps up, in like 15 years, orthodontists' incomes will be on par with GPs
Click to expand...

We are overly saturated. It is tuff out there finding a place to go, harder then dentistry right now. I here from old guys coming here to lecture about how tuff it is out there and that the glory days of ortho are over. Im not trying to be negative here but the reality is that we are not controlling are numbers well and dont seem to have a very tight grip on our profession. We arent selling ourselves to the public very well as a whole, to many graduating residents (with more to come) and even before the economy slumped we had a problem with the old guys not retiring. A know of more than a couple of Orthodontists that finished their program this year (between June and Sept) and still haven't found anything substantial for work.
 
KlingonDentist said:
so what is your solution to the oversaturation of orthodontists?
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- Open more than 1ortho office. Instead of spending $300-500k to build 1 super nice ortho office, use that same amount to build 3 smaller offices at 3 different location. I travel to 6 different offices....3 are my own, 1 is my sister's GP office, and the other 2 are big corporate offices.

-Keep the overhead low so you can lower your fees. Film based pan/ceph machine and paper charts are a lot cheaper than digital machine and paperless charting. Smaller office = cheaper rent.

- open your practice right next to big corporate offices and compete against them.
 
KlingonDentist said:
so what is your solution to the oversaturation of orthodontists?
Click to expand...
Make CODA accountable for not letting ridiculous schools get accredited (ie Univ S Nevada (1 FT faculty is a joke for a program of this size), and all the old OEC schools should have never been opened in the first place if CODA was properly accrediting schools, what a stupid idea to let a corporation run a residency) this will decrease the number of orthodontists
 
How do we make CODA more accountable? Do we just complain to them? What are the steps to formalize a complaint? Thru AAO?
 
FemmeDentale said:
Actually we are associated with a hospital, and do in fact receive a stipened.
Click to expand...

Ok so educate me, since your USN website apparently is incorrect.
How much is your stipend?
How much is your tuition?
What hospital are you associated with?

i have friends who interviewed there, i have actually put in the time to research the program (and Hursts' history), and until proven otherwise:
-no stipend
-62K tuition (i love the "research fee" of $1,000....i mean even the heavy hitting research programs don't charge a "research fee")
-not hospital based

you're the same femme dentale that admitted you applied but never got into ortho , then retracted and said you never applied, then said you don't want to do ortho, then said you could get in several competitive programs but went with USN.

don't mean to get personal, but i really don't like it when people make false statements. it's ok NOT to BS people and just be honest.
 
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S Files said:
you're the same femme dentale that admitted you applied but never got into ortho , then retracted and said you never applied, then said you don't want to do ortho, then said you could get in several competitive programs but went with USN.

don't mean to get personal, but i really don't like it when people make false statements. it's ok NOT to BS people and just be honest.
Click to expand...

As a professional, Im not getting into a pointless argument with you. I never said that I didn't apply nor that I don't want to do ortho. You assumed.

Anyway, to each their own. Im proud of how far USN has come, and look forward to my next 3 years here :D
Applicants considering our program should get their info from internal sources. I really don't want to participate in these childish threads. If you have any questions, feel free to msg me.
 
FemmeDentale said:
As a professional, Im not getting into a pointless argument with you.
Click to expand...

How is answering S Files simple questions a pointless argument. I will repost S Files questions and unless you answer them we can assume you are making up the information you gave about your program. You are obviously biased because UNS was the only opportunity you had to do ortho. You are misleading applicants and are crossing your fingers that USN gets final accreditation. Here are the simple questions S File asked you, just answer them and stop being evasive.


Ok so educate me, since your USN website apparently is incorrect.
How much is your stipend?
How much is your tuition?
What hospital are you associated with?
 
Mondoburger,

I understand where you're coming from. I am a General Dentist for over 6 yrs now. I have done many simple ortho (full bracket) and Invisalign cases in GP. I then decided that I want to go into ortho residency because I feel that a weekend or a string of weekend CE is simply not enough to get me to practice high quality orthodontics. Sure it is easy to move teeth but there are so many pitfalls that I consider it unacceptable for me to continue doing ortho on my pts without going thru complete understanding and training in a Full Time Residency program, my patients deserve it.

As an analogy: It is hell easy to do root canals especially on vital tooth. But if you have a necrotic/infected tooth and you missed a canal or didn't disinfect and shape properly you're in trouble. I have seen so much failed RCT done by so many GPs (not to degrade GPs becaue I also know many GPs who does excellent RCTs and some Endodontists who does a bad job) because they don't know how to do it properly.

In summary: On the surface it seems easy to do a dental procedure but unless thourouly trained and educated in that particular field you may find many difficulties/complications. In my 6 yrs of GP practice and over 800hrs of CE, I realize more and more that I don't know what I don't know.
As a GP we're entitled to do anything but whatever you do, do the best for your patients.

For me, I'm back to school.:D
 
FemmeDentale said:
As a professional, Im not getting into a pointless argument with you. I never said that I didn't apply nor that I don't want to do ortho. You assumed.

Anyway, to each their own. Im proud of how far USN has come, and look forward to my next 3 years here :D
Applicants considering our program should get their info from internal sources. I really don't want to participate in these childish threads. If you have any questions, feel free to msg me.
Click to expand...

From the USN website:

Tuition & Fees for AEODO-MBA Residency Program 2009-10
2009-2010 Tuition and Fees

Advanced Education in Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics/Master of Business Administration (AEODO/MBA) Residency Program – 3 Years

First Year Residents


Tuition: $52,500
Fees: Technology Fee $300
Student Body Fee $325
*Health Insurance Fee (Waived of resident provides proof of insurance) $733 (08-09 rate)
Research Fee $1,000
Computer $2,000
Clinic Usage Fee $6,000
*updated annually based on new rates

Second Year Residents

Tuition: $52,500
Fees: Technology Fee $150
Student Body Fee $325
*Health Insurance Fee (Waived of resident provides proof of insurance) $733 (08-09 rate)
Research Fee $1,000
Clinic Usage Fee $8,000
*updated annually based on new rates

Advanced Education in Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics (AEODO) Internship - 1 Year

Tuition: $21,000
Fees: Technology Fee $300
Student Body Fee $325
*Health Insurance Fee (Waived of resident provides proof of insurance) $733 (08-09 rate)
Computer (optional) $2,000
*updated annually based on new rates

A 2% Processing Fee will be added to all credit card transactions
 
mondoburger said:
LMFAO I'm drunk right now as we type.

seriously though. As I'll be a general dentais sometime soon. I'd love if the world could have more orthodontists...

This way I'd just get them to sign more of my contracts as my associates and I'll just pay them crap..

I LOL when you whiners complain of "better programs" with hospital connections/difficult cases.

give me a break. this is ortho were talking about, where a lot of general dentists even do this. the avg patient (90%) of them will be just high school kids that aren't even that ugly. their parents are just willing to spend money on them so they look better. it's mostly just minor cosmetic treatment.
Click to expand...

Hey dude, sorry you got into dental school. You have just dropped the collective IQ of the profession. Im sure you'll go on to do many great things like: hurt patients, rip patients off, and get sued. Good luck with your plans.
 
wow 3 posts from you and not a single substantive point...well done...get a clue my friend.
you don't know anything about my agenda. rural CT is definitely not saturated with orthos so that theory doesn't hold. people complaining or concerned is just about anyone who wants to uphold standards of dental education, whether d school or residency. oh, my research was based on an internet forum?....again, you assumed.

in the meantime, STILL waiting for an answer to my 3 basic questions....
 
Just to add the complexity of this thread, did USN switch to Non-Match? I'm curious.
 
FYI...stop bashing the USN prog ..twinblock and SFiles,
...it is relatively a new prog..give it some time.....to answer your questions....
1.the residents are getting $18 grands/year
2.Tuition is 52k(approx.)
3.The school is associated with St.Rose Hospital...wanna know the address too???:smuggrin::smuggrin:
this thread is going no where....if you have any further questions...PM me...will be glad to answer all your questions....


twinblock said:
How is answering S Files simple questions a pointless argument. I will repost S Files questions and unless you answer them we can assume you are making up the information you gave about your program. You are obviously biased because UNS was the only opportunity you had to do ortho. You are misleading applicants and are crossing your fingers that USN gets final accreditation. Here are the simple questions S File asked you, just answer them and stop being evasive.


Ok so educate me, since your USN website apparently is incorrect.
How much is your stipend?
How much is your tuition?
What hospital are you associated with?
Click to expand...
 
fido! said:
FYI...stop bashing the USN prog ..twinblock and SFiles,
...it is relatively a new prog..give it some time.....to answer your questions....
1.the residents are getting $18 grands/year
2.Tuition is 52k(approx.)
3.The school is associated with St.Rose Hospital...wanna know the address too???:smuggrin::smuggrin:
this thread is going no where....if you have any further questions...PM me...will be glad to answer all your questions....
Click to expand...

Just warning people about a crappy program that preys on people that have limited options to do ortho. Read old posts about who started this program and his track record. The previous school he was at got cited by CODA. Now he goes and starts a new school then he disappears and is not even there anymore. This school only has 1 FT faculty and only 2 PT faculty, that is ridiculous. This program has only received initial accreditation, if they don't receive final accreditation when the first class graduates then all the residents get out of 3 years is worthless MBA from a school nobody has even heard of (I forgot they also get a loan for 180,000).The ortho part is just like a lot of really expensive CE credit, because if the school doesn't receive final accreditation then you don't even get an ortho certificate. I would advise people that don't match to do general dentistry for a year and reapply the following year. In my opinion going to this school is a very risky option
 
twinblock said:
Just warning people about a crappy program that preys on people that have limited options to do ortho. Read old posts about who started this program and his track record. The previous school he was at got cited by CODA. Now he goes and starts a new school then he disappears and is not even there anymore. This school only has 1 FT faculty and only 2 PT faculty, that is ridiculous. This program has only received initial accreditation, if they don't receive final accreditation when the first class graduates then all the residents get out of 3 years is worthless MBA from a school nobody has even heard of (I forgot they also get a loan for 180,000).The ortho part is just like a lot of really expensive CE credit, because if the school doesn't receive final accreditation then you don't even get an ortho certificate. I would advise people that don't match to do general dentistry for a year and reapply the following year. In my opinion going to this school is a very risky option
Click to expand...

I don't know much about the program, but have seen a few threads devoted to discussing it. It seems like the residents and interns at USN are from all over the place. I wonder if they know the risk of going through a program like this. Hopefully they are not taken advantage by the program preying on their desire to do ortho.

http://www.usndental.com/meet-our-residents.php
 
bracer said:
I don't know much about the program, but have seen a few threads devoted to discussing it. It seems like the residents and interns at USN are from all over the place. I wonder if they know the risk of going through a program like this. Hopefully they are not taken advantage by the program preying on their desire to do ortho.

http://www.usndental.com/meet-our-residents.php
Click to expand...

I feel exhausted scrolling through so many faces.

Is the program getting GME money from the government by affiliating with a hospital? Where is the money for the "stipend" coming from? Why not just knock the tuition down by $18K? If you get a stipend, are you considered "employees" at the hospital and therefore ineligible for government loans to borrow the rest of the money for the tuition?
 
dentister said:
Just to add the complexity of this thread, did USN switch to Non-Match? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

Yes, USN is non-match. They held interviews a few weeks ago from what I've heard, so I imagine that they have already filled their spots.

Although I did not apply to USN, the doctors that I know there (both residents and faculty) are good clinicians and people.
 
USN is a HIGH RISK story right now. It may change in the future. BUt for now Because of this high risk and high uncertainty I suspect it will inadvertantly admit only lower tiered candidates who otherwise cannot get into any other programs. :eek:
 
KlingonDentist said:
Mondoburger,
I understand where you're coming from. I am a General Dentist for over 6 yrs now. I have done many simple ortho (full bracket) and Invisalign cases in GP. I then decided that I want to go into ortho residency because I feel that a weekend or a string of weekend CE is simply not enough to get me to practice high quality orthodontics. Sure it is easy to move teeth but there are so many pitfalls that I consider it unacceptable for me to continue doing ortho on my pts without going thru complete understanding and training in a Full Time Residency program, my patients deserve it.
Click to expand...
I wish most of the GPs on dentaltown (ortho section) were more like you. :)
 
fido! said:
FYI...stop bashing the USN prog ..twinblock and SFiles,
...it is relatively a new prog..give it some time.....to answer your questions....
1.the residents are getting $18 grands/year
2.Tuition is 52k(approx.)
3.The school is associated with St.Rose Hospital...wanna know the address too???:smuggrin::smuggrin:
this thread is going no where....if you have any further questions...PM me...will be glad to answer all your questions....
Click to expand...

new programs are fine, they are expected to have growing pains, my issue is with a director who has a proven track record of running ortho programs into the ground and bailing, taking advantage of students, and not taking their training seriously. go and read about UNLV's site visit when Hurst was there and on his way out.
so many residents with 1 FT'er (who's mostly an administrator) as well. i also think an ortho program should be affiliated with a dental school OR hospital based (meaning IN a hospital - like Vandy, Montefiore, DC children's, etc) to truly get a multidisciplinary training. In a hospital with other dental specialty training programs. which is different than some loose affiliation with St. Rose.
 
twinblock said:
Just warning people about a crappy program that preys on people that have limited options to do ortho. Read old posts about who started this program and his track record. The previous school he was at got cited by CODA. Now he goes and starts a new school then he disappears and is not even there anymore. This school only has 1 FT faculty and only 2 PT faculty, that is ridiculous. This program has only received initial accreditation, if they don't receive final accreditation when the first class graduates then all the residents get out of 3 years is worthless MBA from a school nobody has even heard of (I forgot they also get a loan for 180,000).The ortho part is just like a lot of really expensive CE credit, because if the school doesn't receive final accreditation then you don't even get an ortho certificate. I would advise people that don't match to do general dentistry for a year and reapply the following year. In my opinion going to this school is a very risky option
Click to expand...

I don't know very much about this program or the quality of the education it provides. However, if indeed it has achieved "initial accreditation," then the residents who enroll under this accreditation status are guaranteed by CODA to receive an orthodontic certificate even if accreditation is fully withdrawn from the institution at the follow up site visit(which is highly unlikely, CODA tends to be very fair to the institutions and typically will issue recommendations that the institution must resolve within 2 years). A program has to start somewhere and initial accreditation is it. If someone is considering going to this school and wishes to have confirmation of this, go to CODA's website at the linked address. The information on initial accreditation is on page 47-48.

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/accred/commission/epp.pdf

Much of what has been posted on this message board may very well be true. You might not have the opportunities to experience certain aspects that residents at other schools do, but the risk stated by the quoted about not getting certificate is actually false.

Good luck to applicants aspiring to go into the spectacular profession of orthodontics!
 
KlingonDentist said:
Mondoburger,

I understand where you're coming from. I am a General Dentist for over 6 yrs now. I have done many simple ortho (full bracket) and Invisalign cases in GP. I then decided that I want to go into ortho residency because I feel that a weekend or a string of weekend CE is simply not enough to get me to practice high quality orthodontics. Sure it is easy to move teeth but there are so many pitfalls that I consider it unacceptable for me to continue doing ortho on my pts without going thru complete understanding and training in a Full Time Residency program, my patients deserve it.

As an analogy: It is hell easy to do root canals especially on vital tooth. But if you have a necrotic/infected tooth and you missed a canal or didn't disinfect and shape properly you're in trouble. I have seen so much failed RCT done by so many GPs (not to degrade GPs becaue I also know many GPs who does excellent RCTs and some Endodontists who does a bad job) because they don't know how to do it properly.

In summary: On the surface it seems easy to do a dental procedure but unless thourouly trained and educated in that particular field you may find many difficulties/complications. In my 6 yrs of GP practice and over 800hrs of CE, I realize more and more that I don't know what I don't know.
As a GP we're entitled to do anything but whatever you do, do the best for your patients.

For me, I'm back to school.:D
Click to expand...



Hi Klingon,

LOL. The last time I typed on this forum, I was drinking, and I didn't take this thread very seriously. I've recently came back to this thread after many weeks, and I retracted those posts because now I understand that people like you do take this thread seriously.

I in no way think ortho can be done effectively without a residency training.

You guys took me way too seriously, and I just don't want people thinking otherwise.

Good luck to you.
 
QCkid said:
Hey dude, sorry you got into dental school. You have just dropped the collective IQ of the profession. Im sure you'll go on to do many great things like: hurt patients, rip patients off, and get sued. Good luck with your plans.
Click to expand...


I was not serious when I was typing up my recent posts many weeks ago (the last time I logged in).

Again, I didn't think you guys would take my posts seriously as this is an internet forum.

I would never hurt patients/rip them off.
If I offended anyone- I do apologize. Hey - I'll even make it up to you guys in the future and refer you my patients as a GP!
 
S Files said:
wow 3 posts from you and not a single substantive point...well done...get a clue my friend.
you don't know anything about my agenda. rural CT is definitely not saturated with orthos so that theory doesn't hold. people complaining or concerned is just about anyone who wants to uphold standards of dental education, whether d school or residency. oh, my research was based on an internet forum?....again, you assumed.

in the meantime, STILL waiting for an answer to my 3 basic questions....
Click to expand...


Hey S files,

As were both dental students, were colleagues!

I didn't mean to offend you - and I was taking this as an internet forum. You have to understand I go to internet forums for other things like cars and guns (my hobbies), and no one takes things seriously at all.

Please don't misunderstand me! I edited my comments because I now realize that you guys took me way too seriously.

Sorry dude, and I didn't mean to offend you by saying you did research on an internet forum. This matter is completely none of my business anyway. Good luck to you and everyone else here getting into ortho - and to those residents/orthodontists - its great to have you in our profession!
 
Wait a minute.....you have to pay for ortho residency?!? They don't pay you a stipend for doing their work for them? Why on earth would you pay them? Adding on all that debt.....no wonder they have such a tough time getting faculty.
 
toofache32 said:
Wait a minute.....you have to pay for ortho residency?!? They don't pay you a stipend for doing their work for them? Why on earth would you pay them? Adding on all that debt.....no wonder they have such a tough time getting faculty.
Click to expand...

FYI there are a lot of ortho residencies that you pay for. That fact should not inhibit them from getting faculty.
 
thedudeabides6 said:
FYI there are a lot of ortho residencies that you pay for. That fact should not inhibit them from getting faculty.
Click to expand...

Adding thousands of dollars of debt to my already high debt load from dental school would make me nervously avoid any low-paying job such as a faculty position.
 
It is not very difficult to find part time ortho instructors. Since most orthodontists only work 2-3 days/week at their private offices, they have a lot of free time to volunteer. The director and dept chair have to be full time.....the rest can be part time instructors.
 
charlestweed said:
It is not very difficult to find part time ortho instructors. Since most orthodontists only work 2-3 days/week at their private offices, they have a lot of free time to volunteer. The director and dept chair have to be full time.....the rest can be part time instructors.
Click to expand...

What do you think of the quality of those guys? Are they like the part-time bozos in dental school who don't get off their butts and are just there to sign the paperwork?
 
toofache32 said:
What do you think of the quality of those guys? Are they like the part-time bozos in dental school who don't get off their butts and are just there to sign the paperwork?
Click to expand...

Our part timers were great. They clued us in to real world ortho that will help pay those student loan bills unlike the full timers who swore by tooth movements that only occur in textbooks. I heard this sentiment echoed at many programs during interviews.
 
charlestweed said:
- Open more than 1ortho office. Instead of spending $300-500k to build 1 super nice ortho office, use that same amount to build 3 smaller offices at 3 different location. I travel to 6 different offices....3 are my own, 1 is my sister's GP office, and the other 2 are big corporate offices.

-Keep the overhead low so you can lower your fees. Film based pan/ceph machine and paper charts are a lot cheaper than digital machine and paperless charting. Smaller office = cheaper rent.

- open your practice right next to big corporate offices and compete against them.
Click to expand...

How can you open a practice for 100,000K?

My startup costs were-
Sign- 5000$
Equipment- 55000$
Computer and Server- 6000$
Networking ( phone lines + computer) - 6000$
Buildout 90$/ Sq foot for 2800 lease space- 240,000$
furniture- 3000$
office design-3000$
supplies- 9000$
1st and last months rent 10,000$
working Capital- 50,000$


The total cost for the project was around 400,000$. I will get $100,000 back from the landlord in Tenant Improvement + 50,000$ will be working capital so that brings my cost down to 250,000.

Granted, I could have chosen a smaller space to build out but there is no way to open a practice from scratch for 100,000K.
 
Demeter said:
How can you open a practice for 100,000K?

My startup costs were-
Sign- 5000$
Equipment- 55000$
Computer and Server- 6000$
Networking ( phone lines + computer) - 6000$
Buildout 90$/ Sq foot for 2800 lease space- 240,000$
furniture- 3000$
office design-3000$
supplies- 9000$
1st and last months rent 10,000$
working Capital- 50,000$


The total cost for the project was around 400,000$. I will get $100,000 back from the landlord in Tenant Improvement + 50,000$ will be working capital so that brings my cost down to 250,000.

Granted, I could have chosen a smaller space to build out but there is no way to open a practice from scratch for 100,000K.
Click to expand...

So it would be $350k if the landlord didn't give you back the $100K tenant improvement. To me, this is way too much. I don't have good business skills and I am not a big risk taker either. Therefore, I try to avoid spending a lot of money on the initial investment. I spent about $300k for all 3 of my office.....and the total rent for all 3 is only $6100 a month....not bad for offices in southern California.

Office 1: 1350sf, 5 chairs (recently added a 6th chair). I set up this one from scratch.
-construction cost:$85k ($65 per squarefoot)
-5 chairs and 4 delivery units(domeortho.com): $15k
-Other equipments (sterilizer, film processor, air/vac units): $10k
-Sign + permit: 2k
- Instruments : $0. I used instruments that that I bought during my ortho residency.
- Computer: $0. I just used my personal laptop for word processing. I don't need the internet. We don't do electronic billing since there are only a few billing codes for ortho. I still use a $10 appointment book to schedule the appointments for all of my patients.
-Supplies: ~ 5-6k.
-Miscellaneous spendings: 5k
Grand total: ~ $120k.

Office 2: 950sf, 4chairs (3 were plumbed). I paid $45k to the same general contractor above to convert an OBGYN to a perio/ortho office. The landlord gave us $10k back for tenant improvement. Total cost: $35K.

Office 3: 1400sf, 5 chairs. Purchased from a retiring orthondontist for $165k.

To further reduce the overhead, I make my staff carry the instruments to the office that we work on that day so I don't have to buy a lot of instruments for all 3 (actually 4 if I include my sister's GP office) offices. I no longer have to pay $4-5k per month in lab fees because I recently trained my assistant to make all of the ortho appliances in the office.
 
charlestweed,

do you have a pan and ceph machine in each of these offices?
 
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