New DMU campus

[homeboy]

What is the feeling on campus with the proposed new school?
Any alums with thoughts?

Because I have one. While I don't live in Des Moines any more, I recall my 4 years there quite well, and when i heard the campus was moving out to practically Waukee, I was overwhelmed with a sense of ... "WTF?"

The campus had just finished a major multimillion dollar renovation during my time there over 10 yrs ago, and has undergone continuous projects since.
The move is marketed as a way to "rebrand and expand", which utterly confuses me. There is limited capacity for didactic education because classroom learning is but a component of medical education, and the arguably more important component is spent in hospitals & clinics around the metro/state/country, so who benefits from a large massive brand new campus? DPM students? PA students? Masters students? The administration? Is this a way to expand class sizes in non-DO programs?

The university claims the whole issue started when surrounding neighborhoods refused to allow them to expand their current footprint, including parking. Really? So that warrants picking up and moving the entire campus, away from the central Des Moines location in close proximity to a community, hospitals, and a city... to a sterile , isolated cornfield close to the mall?

I can't help but be compelled to feel the entire thing centers around the aspirations & egos of the administration, not the least of which is the President.
And don't kid yourself that the cost of education will be unaffected. Gross receipts for DMU were $153,000,000 in 2020 [they're hardly struggling]. AWF paid herself $770,000 last year (reported). This project is going to be a massive expense, and it's going to filter down to the students in the form of guaranteed tuition & fees increases at the max possible rate. DO tuition is already $56,000/year. [Your faculty and admin can tell you all they want that "you'll be fine", but I can assure you the salaries out there aren't outpacing the guaranteed-increasing cost of medical education (indeed, they're lagging behind).]

I've talked to a few grads, both recent and not-so-recent, and no one seems to be able to offer an explanation as to why this move was imperative or how it's going to improve the quality of education...the only thing it will improve is the number of applicants who want a shiny clean new building with no understanding of the process or needs for medical education, while inflating the egos of administration.

If there was ever a nail in the coffin for any potential donations to the university, this move was certainly it.

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[deleted1066189]

I'm certainly curious what will happen to the old campus. I am aware DMU will be adding new programs, though not sure what they would be.
I suspect this thread will be neutral. Most SDN posters seem to react negatively to DO school expansion (with good reason), though KCU, also one of the OG five DO schools, got a pass with the Joplin campus.

 

[Tragal Pointer]

When in doubt, money is the answer.

 

[Goro]

Hey, if sports teams can move, why not a medical school?

 

[HaveAnOsteoblast]

The current campus is too small relative to the number of enrolled students. It makes sense that they'd want to expand their facilities. Also, the new campus is in a more busy area of Des Moines, with a lot of people commuting and retail establishments nearby, so it gives DMU a bigger presence in the city.

That being said, I think the academic curriculum has a number of glaring deficits that should've been prioritized over a campus relocation. I'm not so sure that dysfunctions in the curriculum are going to magically improve through an increase in square footage.

 

[deleted1066189]

That being said, I think the academic curriculum has a number of glaring deficits that should've been prioritized over a campus relocation.

not a DMU student, but still curious and all. all I know is that DMU has a traditional style curriculum?

 

[HaveAnOsteoblast]

not a DMU student, but still curious and all. all I know is that DMU has a traditional style curriculum?

They made a switch to systems-based for the class of 2024 onward

 

[homeboy]

The current campus is too small relative to the number of enrolled students. It makes sense that they'd want to expand their facilities. Also, the new campus is in a more busy area of Des Moines, with a lot of people commuting and retail establishments nearby, so it gives DMU a bigger presence in the city.

That being said, I think the academic curriculum has a number of glaring deficits that should've been prioritized over a campus relocation. I'm not so sure that dysfunctions in the curriculum are going to magically improve through an increase in square footage.

I would disagree that the solution to perceived size limitations is to simply build an entirely new campus. You don’t see allopathic schools up and moving to the burbs to churn out more students, in large part because they’re tied to teaching hospitals and large medical facilities (which is part of the reason for the curriculum deficiencies of which you speak, and DMU moving further from the main medical facilities will only exacerbate this). There is an upper limit for effective medical education and class size, again particularly in the context of didactics only representing a portion of the education process, but also because the number of GME spots doesn’t reflect the number of graduating students. The core of the school is the physician degree, so perhaps if DMU is in the business of simply churning out midlevel providers and MHA students, (which they apparently are) I guess there’s no limit.

It doesn’t give DMU a bigger presence in the city—it’s not even IN the city, it’s on the southwestern edge of suburban sprawl, and no where near major hospitals downtown. It’s west of the 80/235 loop, the center of which is downtown and the hospitals. Proximity to retail? I guess people have their priorities.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I am curious to why you are enraged about this. Sure they had a renovation but the campus is still small and the building was an old catholic school so structures are freaking old.

You say up and moving doesn’t help but how does it hurt? The campus isn’t close to the current hospitals at all and the clinic that they have is really inconvenient for patients so they sure as hell aren’t pulling business away from the hospitals. Sure, very close proximity could be beneficial but it isn’t very close and i see no difference in value. The area is absolutely landlocked and while it may not be an issue now, I don’t see any reason not to move before it is an issue. And isn’t like the campus is abundantly sized. Parking was a pain when I attending from 2012-2016 so imagine it is way worse now. Also lecture spaces were a pain.

Close to shopping but it isn’t like DMU is close to anything but Wellman’s. The presidents pay seems to be on par with other schools if not less so not sure why that is an issue. You say presence in the city but I would argue that at least this gives a chance for there to be a presence in the city. They have been in that school forever and most of Des Moines doesn’t know there is a med school.

DMU won’t be getting my money any time soon but as someone who grew up in Des Moines and plans to return to Des Moines when fellowship is done, DMU doesn’t have a presence in the city to any appreciable amount, the campus isn’t within walking distance to downtown, it absolutely is landlocked, and clinics are a pain. And they aren’t anywhere near downtown hospitals at all. They are now closer to the major west hospitals, probably closer to those than the downtown hospitals. If they do nothing more but make it easier for patients to be seen on campus and give the city a big building to talk about, it is going to help. And this is natural growth which DMU hasn’t done in too long.

The vast majority of DMU students spend literally zero time in the Des Moines hospitals so I am not sure how that is a strong point for you. The city is absolutely moving west and has been for years and will continue for the foreseeable future.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Plus the more I think about it, DMU isn't exactly in an easy to access location where the new campus is right off of the interstate. And you say in the middle of a cornfield except you are right next to the single wealthiest community in all of Des Moines less than a mile from the busiest mall in Des Moines and one of the busiest areas in general. All of the major banks including Wells Fargo headquarters are less than a mile from the new campus. Saying it is going to the middle nowhere just isn't correct.

Again, my source is being born and raised in Des Moines, going to college in Des Moines, working in many Des Moines area businesses, going to medical school in Des Moines, doing residency in Des Moines, leaving for fellowship, and plan to go back to Des Moines where my family is from and my wife is from. So I am not just someone who spent 4 years there and bailed.

 

[homeboy]

I am curious to why you are enraged about this. Sure they had a renovation but the campus is still small and the building was an old catholic school so structures are freaking old.

You say up and moving doesn’t help but how does it hurt? The campus isn’t close to the current hospitals at all and the clinic that they have is really inconvenient for patients so they sure as hell aren’t pulling business away from the hospitals. Sure, very close proximity could be beneficial but it isn’t very close and i see no difference in value. The area is absolutely landlocked and while it may not be an issue now, I don’t see any reason not to move before it is an issue. And isn’t like the campus is abundantly sized. Parking was a pain when I attending from 2012-2016 so imagine it is way worse now. Also lecture spaces were a pain.

Close to shopping but it isn’t like DMU is close to anything but Wellman’s. The presidents pay seems to be on par with other schools if not less so not sure why that is an issue. You say presence in the city but I would argue that at least this gives a chance for there to be a presence in the city. They have been in that school forever and most of Des Moines doesn’t know there is a med school.

DMU won’t be getting my money any time soon but as someone who grew up in Des Moines and plans to return to Des Moines when fellowship is done, DMU doesn’t have a presence in the city to any appreciable amount, the campus isn’t within walking distance to downtown, it absolutely is landlocked, and clinics are a pain. And they aren’t anywhere near downtown hospitals at all. They are now closer to the major west hospitals, probably closer to those than the downtown hospitals. If they do nothing more but make it easier for patients to be seen on campus and give the city a big building to talk about, it is going to help. And this is natural growth which DMU hasn’t done in too long.

The vast majority of DMU students spend literally zero time in the Des Moines hospitals so I am not sure how that is a strong point for you. The city is absolutely moving west and has been for years and will continue for the foreseeable future.

~2003 - 2007 there was a major addition including the new medical education center, library, gym, etc etc...they seemed amply sized to accommodate the various classes. the age of the older remaining structures has absolutely no bearing on anything functional RE education. I attended early 2000s...the class sizes haven't changed significantly since then.

Ultimately, to answer your question, I think it's just unnecessary, and the main way it hurts is the financial burden that will decidedly be transferred to the students. As someone said earlier, it all comes down to money, which goes hand-in-hand with ego. The students weren't asking for this; the professors weren't asking for this; the community wasn't asking for it.

Tuition for DO students is currently >$55,000 / year. Factoring in living expenses, health insurance and undergraduate debt, the expectation for debt is approaching half a million $. Interest rates are what, at least 4.5% for federal, which cover only a portion of tuition? Even with income based repayment schemes, a sizable number of physicians are entering >$500,000 of debt after training. "Go join a non-profit and your debt will be wiped clean after 10 years"...that's the ticket! Who cares what I'm being charged so long as I can pass along my debt to the general pool, if it even works.

Talk to someone who's been practicing >10 years...the interest rates were lower than inflation, loan deferment prevented interest from piling on during residency, and inflation-adjusted salaries were better. There comes a point when it makes zero financial sense to attend medical school unless one has their heart set on a high-paying subspecialty if they don't want to be saddled with mortgage-sized debt with a minimal salary.

People will tell you--mostly people who benefit from you paying $55k/yr for tuition (admin, faculty, non-physicians)--that you're going to be just fine...you won't be living under a bridge anywhere. While that may be true compared to the general public, your older colleagues are rolling their eyes at your naive egalitarianism which lines the pockets of non-physicians (school admin, hospital admin, et al).

What's that got to do with DMU transitioning to WDMU? It's the same as every hospital system in the country being 'non profit' as they roll there would-be profits into expansion, both physical/territorial and administrative. There will always be a line of potential students willing to pay increasing amounts for tuition to fund the endeavors of administrators, but the ends don't justify the means. Medicine is run by people who don't have the interest of students & physicians at heart, and schools are no different than hospitals. The costs will indeed filter into adjusted tuition prices & fees, perhaps offset by increased class sizes for midlevel providers & junk masters degrees, but it's not going to enhance the education process.

I'm not saying the alternative was for DMU to initiate some NYU-style "free tuition" program, but you have to have your head in the financial sand to ignore the "as guaranteed as death and taxes" tuition increases every year, and think a brand spanking new facility won't impact that at all.

It's not going to make better physicians, just a few more with higher debt.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

~2003 - 2007 there was a major addition including the new medical education center, library, gym, etc etc...they seemed amply sized to accommodate the various classes. the age of the older remaining structures has absolutely no bearing on anything functional RE education. I attended early 2000s...the class sizes haven't changed significantly since then.

Ultimately, to answer your question, I think it's just unnecessary, and the main way it hurts is the financial burden that will decidedly be transferred to the students. As someone said earlier, it all comes down to money, which goes hand-in-hand with ego. The students weren't asking for this; the professors weren't asking for this; the community wasn't asking for it.

Tuition for DO students is currently >$55,000 / year. Factoring in living expenses, health insurance and undergraduate debt, the expectation for debt is approaching half a million $. Interest rates are what, at least 4.5% for federal, which cover only a portion of tuition? Even with income based repayment schemes, a sizable number of physicians are entering >$500,000 of debt after training. "Go join a non-profit and your debt will be wiped clean after 10 years"...that's the ticket! Who cares what I'm being charged so long as I can pass along my debt to the general pool, if it even works.

Talk to someone who's been practicing >10 years...the interest rates were lower than inflation, loan deferment prevented interest from piling on during residency, and inflation-adjusted salaries were better. There comes a point when it makes zero financial sense to attend medical school unless one has their heart set on a high-paying subspecialty if they don't want to be saddled with mortgage-sized debt with a minimal salary.

People will tell you--mostly people who benefit from you paying $55k/yr for tuition (admin, faculty, non-physicians)--that you're going to be just fine...you won't be living under a bridge anywhere. While that may be true compared to the general public, your older colleagues are rolling their eyes at your naive egalitarianism which lines the pockets of non-physicians (school admin, hospital admin, et al).

What's that got to do with DMU transitioning to WDMU? It's the same as every hospital system in the country being 'non profit' as they roll there would-be profits into expansion, both physical/territorial and administrative. There will always be a line of potential students willing to pay increasing amounts for tuition to fund the endeavors of administrators, but the ends don't justify the means. Medicine is run by people who don't have the interest of students & physicians at heart, and schools are no different than hospitals. The costs will indeed filter into adjusted tuition prices & fees, perhaps offset by increased class sizes for midlevel providers & junk masters degrees, but it's not going to enhance the education process.

I'm not saying the alternative was for DMU to initiate some NYU-style "free tuition" program, but you have to have your head in the financial sand to ignore the "as guaranteed as death and taxes" tuition increases every year, and think a brand spanking new facility won't impact that at all.

It's not going to make better physicians, just a few more with higher debt.

So from reading your response, it seems your concern is mainly related to the cost and who is going to pay for this and your thought is the future students. Is that correct?

And that may be but I also think that cost is going up anyway. When I was there, they focused on being lower in the realm of DO school tuition but that doesn’t mean much.

At this point, the ball is moving and in Des Moines, it has been known (in the medical community) that DMU is moving out there over the past year. And from a tuition and payment standpoint, you are probably right.

But from a community standpoint, I do think this is DMU making a step forward in the community. It is hard to find in the middle of a random neighborhood, the clinic is a huge pain, there isn’t room to expand other programs, and DMU isn’t well known. Hell most people in Des Moines don’t realize we have a Children’s hospital let alone a medical school so if their presence can be increased, that can help. And with a start of the art facility, it is possible to branch out to the local colleges and universities as well as nursing programs for training and simulation. And it is further away from the main hospitals, but DMU wasn’t really close in the first place and if there could be a better connection between DMU and the less busy west hospitals, it could be huge for education.

But I’ve been wrong once before.