Neurology tops burnout again in JAMA 2018 article

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Dr. Bruce Banner

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Neurology, along with EM, urology, and gen surg, again tops the uncoveted spot amongst the specialties with the highest burnout rate. The article states, and confirmed by AAN, that neurology is the ONLY specialty that has the highest burnout AND the lowest work-life balance... OK, I can see EM and Urology have pretty high work-life balance, but gen surg??? Why are neurologists getting destroyed... if nothing is done about raising the salary of neurologists and getting rid of the ungodly hours that they work, this projected shortage of neurologists will just keep on getting worse and worse, and prevent future medical students from wanting to go into the specialty...
Any insights from current residents and attendings regarding this issue is appreciated. What are your hours like, what is your salary like, and what subspecialty are you pursusing? Thanks!

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Recently, @neglect wrote a very good response to address the burnout concern in neurology.

This is easy to understand to me. I no longer follow the so called ‘hateful patient’ because I fire them or make them dissatisfied right away, but they exist. These are the people with personality disorders presenting with migraines, chronic pain, unexplained symptoms that border on conversion disorder. They are the conversion disorders who refuse to believe you and refuse to move on. The MS patient who refuses DMTs, but want you to take on their care anyway. Some neurologists do not recognize a fundamental bit of medicine: you cannot help those who do not really want it.

I am still a PGY-1 and recently rotated in neurology. I can tell you that a good portion of the consults (seizures, weakness, tremors, etc...) had psychogenic etiology. Dealing with these pts can be a major PITA.
 
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Recently, @neglect wrote a very good response to address the burnout concern in neurology.

I am still a PGY-1 and recently rotated in neurology. I can tell you that a good portion of the consults (seizures, weakness, tremors, etc...) had psychogenic etiology. Dealing with these pts can be a major PITA.

Plus, a lot of neurological issues that don't have a psychogenic etiology per se still come along with psych comorbidities or other social issues that you end up having to deal with in one way or another. It's definitely something that can be emotionally exhausting to deal with on a regular basis, along with all of the other stuff.
 
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Neurology, along with EM, urology, and gen surg, again tops the uncoveted spot amongst the specialties with the highest burnout rate. The article states, and confirmed by AAN, that neurology is the ONLY specialty that has the highest burnout AND the lowest work-life balance... OK, I can see EM and Urology have pretty high work-life balance, but gen surg??? Why are neurologists getting destroyed... if nothing is done about raising the salary of neurologists and getting rid of the ungodly hours that they work, this projected shortage of neurologists will just keep on getting worse and worse, and prevent future medical students from wanting to go into the specialty...
Any insights from current residents and attendings regarding this issue is appreciated. What are your hours like, what is your salary like, and what subspecialty are you pursusing? Thanks!

I think I make about 2-3X the UML of salary for neurologists because I do less clinical medicine. I work very hard and a 40 hour week is sadly rare. I'm usually in the office for 10-12 hours 5 days a week. I still take call occasionally and when this is the case, I come in at all times. Because these are discrete events with firm horizons, I’m far from burnout in general. But because all of clinical medicine is so toxic these days, I think I’m usually burned out by the first few hours on call.

The reasons for burnout are not only multifactorial but highly individualistic. The biggest problem, to this individual's mind, is that neurology has historically drawn some of the brightest young men and women to the ranks. Most of us are interested in neuroscience, see the elegance in the nervous system, and see the extension of neuroscience into practical matters. In fact, neurology can be defined as practical neuroscience. So you take very smart people and have them deal with day to day neurology - there's a mismatch between expectations and reality and that generates burnout. If neurologists could lose 10-20 IQ points, they'd go to work, start gabapentin for tingling, hang out with stupid drug reps, and be much happier. But few of can do that. We've devoted ourselves to horrible, difficult and complex brain problems, then we're dissapointed by the reality that horrible difficult and complex brain problems are horrible and difficult and complex - in a world that doesn't value that. Instead, the world values unnecessary procedures more than a necessary consult that goes into doing the procedure or not.

But there are MANY other forces that make neurology an absolutely miserable slog. As @Ibn Alnafis MD pointed out, I've weighed in on this before. The worst catastrophe (it is so bad it could account for the top 5 burnout drivers) to affect our field has been the EMR. While this has affected other fields, most can offset this by concentrating on single issues. For example, imagine you do something discrete and curative like derm. (I recently spoke about this issue with @MOHS_01 on another thread). You can use an electronic template for pretty much anything you do: black spot, carved out, sew up, then note done. You concentrate on the patient, then the note takes care of itself. Neurology, on the other hand, requires both quick and easy gestault impression, but also careful thought about how to support one's thinking, degrees of conviction, possibilities if one is wrong. So we're affected disproportionately, along with other specialties like onc, rheum, and pcp's.

So add this process, thinking fast and slow if I can borrow the phrase, to the way we’re treated by the system. Patients tell me “they told me I need to see you to leave,” after getting admitted for dizziness, having the impression read dizziness, then getting an MRI, MRA, echo, and starting them on aspirin for what turns out to be syncope. We are getting turned from artisans to assembly line worker bees. It hurts. And with the rise of AI and advance practice folks in medicine, it is getting AND going to get FAR worse.

Add into this that not many patients get better (sure, you give tPA and get Lazarus effects but many are also screwed up and PD gets sinemet). We also give heavy news all the time. The seizure was caused by a tumor, it was a stroke, you have MS. All of these things are bad. And I haven’t even mentioned the PITA folks (and their families).

To combat it, you gotta find what you like doing and then do more of it.
 
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I think I make about 2-3X the UML of salary for neurologists because I do less clinical medicine. I work very hard and a 40 hour week is sadly rare. I'm usually in the office for 10-12 hours 5 days a week. I still take call occasionally and when this is the case, I come in at all times. Because these are discrete events with firm horizons, I’m far from burnout in general. But because all of clinical medicine is so toxic these days, I think I’m usually burned out by the first few hours on call.

The reasons for burnout are not only multifactorial but highly individualistic. The biggest problem, to this individual's mind, is that neurology has historically drawn some of the brightest young men and women to the ranks. Most of us are interested in neuroscience, see the elegance in the nervous system, and see the extension of neuroscience into practical matters. In fact, neurology can be defined as practical neuroscience. So you take very smart people and have them deal with day to day neurology - there's a mismatch between expectations and reality and that generates burnout. If neurologists could lose 10-20 IQ points, they'd go to work, start gabapentin for tingling, hang out with stupid drug reps, and be much happier. But few of can do that. We've devoted ourselves to horrible, difficult and complex brain problems, then we're dissapointed by the reality that horrible difficult and complex brain problems are horrible and difficult and complex - in a world that doesn't value that. Instead, the world values unnecessary procedures more than a necessary consult that goes into doing the procedure or not.

But there are MANY other forces that make neurology an absolutely miserable slog. As @Ibn Alnafis MD pointed out, I've weighed in on this before. The worst catastrophe (it is so bad it could account for the top 5 burnout drivers) to affect our field has been the EMR. While this has affected other fields, most can offset this by concentrating on single issues. For example, imagine you do something discrete and curative like derm. (I recently spoke about this issue with @MOHS_01 on another thread). You can use an electronic template for pretty much anything you do: black spot, carved out, sew up, then note done. You concentrate on the patient, then the note takes care of itself. Neurology, on the other hand, requires both quick and easy gestault impression, but also careful thought about how to support one's thinking, degrees of conviction, possibilities if one is wrong. So we're affected disproportionately, along with other specialties like onc, rheum, and pcp's.

So add this process, thinking fast and slow if I can borrow the phrase, to the way we’re treated by the system. Patients tell me “they told me I need to see you to leave,” after getting admitted for dizziness, having the impression read dizziness, then getting an MRI, MRA, echo, and starting them on aspirin for what turns out to be syncope. We are getting turned from artisans to assembly line worker bees. It hurts. And with the rise of AI and advance practice folks in medicine, it is getting AND going to get FAR worse.

Add into this that not many patients get better (sure, you give tPA and get Lazarus effects but many are also screwed up and PD gets sinemet). We also give heavy news all the time. The seizure was caused by a tumor, it was a stroke, you have MS. All of these things are bad. And I haven’t even mentioned the PITA folks (and their families).

To combat it, you gotta find what you like doing and then do more of it.
Yeah, even the "ROAD" is not what it was as little as 15 years ago. Those coming through now have known nothing else, so the complaints of elders sounds like sour grapes. Those who were financially able to retire threw their fingers up on the way out the door and left the rest of us to contend with a very hostile and changing environment. Those who really drew the short straw are the mid career individuals, those of us in our 40's or so who entered into one world, chained to it, and had it taken from us. There is a weighted loss related to the tangible nature to the individual; if you have and subsequently have taken from you, the gravity is more palpable than to have never experienced. Ask anyone who flew routinely before 9/11 how much better their travel experience was for a simple example.

We have gone from respected, well paid autonomous career professionals to interchangeable cogs in a machine and a political football. Society will eventually get the medicine it deserves, but it won't be a pretty place to be a doc... and damn sure does not help those of us chained in a rail car rolling on broken tracks.
 
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For me it's how uncomfortable other physicians are with neurology, and how we often end up being the CYA specialty. The "I'm pretty sure it's nothing but..." or "I just don't want to miss anything" are personally soul crushing. Also, getting pegged by stroke alerts for things that clearly aren't strokes, and people treating stroke alerts as "stat neuro consults". Not to mention the psychogenic stuff.

I think having a consult only service where you're not the admitting/discharging physician may alleviate some of that and turn some consults into "one and done".
 
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For me it's how uncomfortable other physicians are with neurology, and how we often end up being the CYA specialty. The "I'm pretty sure it's nothing but..." or "I just don't want to miss anything" are personally soul crushing. Also, getting pegged by stroke alerts for things that clearly aren't strokes, and people treating stroke alerts as "stat neuro consults". Not to mention the psychogenic stuff.

I think having a consult only service where you're not the admitting/discharging physician may alleviate some of that and turn some consults into "one and done".

I run a consult-only service and it’s still brutal. Try to sign off a simple case and they’ll reconsult you throughout the admission (“family has questions”). When I’m on-call I work approx 123 hrs/week. Weekends are miserable. Unfortunately I’m on call q3.
 
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I run a consult-only service and it’s still brutal. Try to sign off a simple case and they’ll reconsult you throughout the admission (“family has questions”). When I’m on-call I work approx 123 hrs/week. Weekends are miserable. Unfortunately I’m on call q3.
I hope you're paid handsomely for it
 
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A coping mechanism for myself has been to find interest in the mundane by approaching it from a different perspective. For example, if you enjoy good ol' fashioned clinical neurology, seeing a functional patient can be rewarding in its own manner. What else could be going on?? It requires a solid understanding of mimics and actual organic pathology. Sure, you might have to do some diagnostics (at least just to please your attending), but that's one way to look at it. Plus, tuning fork magic on these patients is priceless...
 
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Yeah, even the "ROAD" is not what it was as little as 15 years ago. Those coming through now have known nothing else, so the complaints of elders sounds like sour grapes. Those who were financially able to retire threw their fingers up on the way out the door and left the rest of us to contend with a very hostile and changing environment. Those who really drew the short straw are the mid career individuals, those of us in our 40's or so who entered into one world, chained to it, and had it taken from us. There is a weighted loss related to the tangible nature to the individual; if you have and subsequently have taken from you, the gravity is more palpable than to have never experienced. Ask anyone who flew routinely before 9/11 how much better their travel experience was for a simple example.

We have gone from respected, well paid autonomous career professionals to interchangeable cogs in a machine and a political football. Society will eventually get the medicine it deserves, but it won't be a pretty place to be a doc... and damn sure does not help those of us chained in a rail car rolling on broken tracks.

Yes! Other than EMRs, the biggest driver of burnout is the assumption on part of payers, patients, families, other doctors, administrators that we’re all cogs. This attitude drives me bonkers, in part because it is internalized by physicians! We are actually the last highly paid artisan class - and we deserve to be. I don’t want someone taking out my appendix to think of themselves as a worker bee. I want them to in the zone, not concerned with admin hassles, how much they’re getting paid, internet ratings, or making their RVUs for the year.

On the consolidation of derm practices: interesting and kinda funny because they consolidated and then revenue dropped. Or perhaps that was the driver for consolidation in the first place.

For me it's how uncomfortable other physicians are with neurology, and how we often end up being the CYA specialty. The "I'm pretty sure it's nothing but..." or "I just don't want to miss anything" are personally soul crushing. Also, getting pegged by stroke alerts for things that clearly aren't strokes, and people treating stroke alerts as "stat neuro consults". Not to mention the psychogenic stuff.

I think having a consult only service where you're not the admitting/discharging physician may alleviate some of that and turn some consults into "one and done".

Like @cerebral edema below, just don’t admit unless you have the support. This results in slightly less work overall, just less paperwork on the admit/discharge, but the day to day is about the same.

And I agree, the “patient has a nervous system” as a reason for consult is difficult, but I’ll take 20 of those for a functional patient who blames her chronic fatigue on mold/Lyme/metals. And hey, the primary service is being honest. They have about the same understanding of the vestibular system (if this is vertigo) that I have of the spleen. I know it exists. So you really are adding value, if anything by preventing the patient from getting EEGs, vestibular testing, CUS, MRA, MRI, echo, and whatever else.

I run a consult-only service and it’s still brutal. Try to sign off a simple case and they’ll reconsult you throughout the admission (“family has questions”). When I’m on-call I work approx 123 hrs/week. Weekends are miserable. Unfortunately I’m on call q3.

PM me if you’d like to hear about other options. And aside from me, please get the F out of your situation. No amount of money is worth that.

But that does trigger another thought. Very few of us work as hard as CE above. Some of this burnout talk is BS. Many people want maximum salaries and don’t want to work for it. Whining about how hard you have it is not the same as working like CE above. CE is headed for burnout, hard. Feeling bad because of a toxic, hateful patient or family isn’t the same.
 
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Well, I understand why the burnout rates are so high, having felt that myself in residency where most of my PG2 was super dense > 80hour weeks.
But let me tell you the other side,
After a lot of looking around, thinking and weighing pros and cons, I picked up an attending position as a neurohospitalist (consult only) in a small hospital in a small town. I work 7on 7off. Technically I am on call 24hours, but my actual work day is about 4-6 hours. I go in at 9 am and am home most days before 3pm. I see 5-10 patients a day and read 2-3 EEGs a day. My salary is close to 75th percentile for a neurologist fresh out of training. The Internists and other services highly appreciate my inputs and I get thanked by patients, nurses and other physicians everyday. I am super happy with my job and cannot imagine a better work-life situation!! I spend my free week with family, traveling, exploring my many other areas of interest and self improvement!

So if you want there are great jobs out there, but you can't get everything.
 
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I run a consult-only service and it’s still brutal. Try to sign off a simple case and they’ll reconsult you throughout the admission (“family has questions”). When I’m on-call I work approx 123 hrs/week. Weekends are miserable. Unfortunately I’m on call q3.

Im sorry to say but that is a bad deal, unless you are getting paid atleast 600k
 
Recently, @neglect wrote a very good response to address the burnout concern in neurology.



I am still a PGY-1 and recently rotated in neurology. I can tell you that a good portion of the consults (seizures, weakness, tremors, etc...) had psychogenic etiology. Dealing with these pts can be a major PITA.
And yet we have low burnout and high work-life balance in psych where that is our bread and butter. Our consults are also 90% BS. So what is it that separates us so far from our neurology cousins?
 
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And yet we have low burnout and high work-life balance in psych where that is our bread and butter. Our consults are also 90% BS. So what is it that separates us so far from our neurology cousins?
Prospectives and expectations.
 
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And yet we have low burnout and high work-life balance in psych where that is our bread and butter. Our consults are also 90% BS. So what is it that separates us so far from our neurology cousins?

I’m up most of the night taking stroke call from surrounding communities. If its a tPA patient I have to meet them upon arrival (or w/n 30 min if its one of my ED’s). Same goes with intervention candidates. I also have to see ICH and document scores w/n 6 hrs. I also get STAT calls for LPs, meningitis (never did this in residency), status, unresponsive state, and GBS. Add this to a difficult functional patient during the day amd it can become depressing. Dont think psych has these timed-based metrics, but i could be wrong.
 
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I’m up most of the night taking stroke call from surrounding communities. If its a tPA patient I have to meet them upon arrival (or w/n 30 min if its one of my ED’s). Same goes with intervention candidates. I also have to see ICH and document scores w/n 6 hrs. I also get STAT calls for LPs, meningitis (never did this in residency), status, unresponsive state, and GBS. Add this to a difficult functional patient during the day amd it can become depressing. Dont think psych has these timed-based metrics, but i could be wrong.
We don't, and that is kind of why I posted- the heart of the problems with neurology are likely rooted in the poor outcomes of the chronic patients and the intensity related to the acute ones.
 
And yet we have low burnout and high work-life balance in psych where that is our bread and butter. Our consults are also 90% BS. So what is it that separates us so far from our neurology cousins?

Prospectives and expectations.


I think Functional and Psychogenic disorders is an area of highest 'Unmet need' in medicine. As a neurologist, many residents learn to hate these conditions and patients.
If you look at the data, majority of studies and research on Functional Neurological Disorders are done by neurologists and rightly so. I would recommend to all young neurologists to consider and study FNDs as intensively equally as other subspecialties like Stroke, Epilepsy etc.. You will be able to help patients who have been ignored all their lives and have been in and out of hospitals and clinics without relief. And also, won't feel frustrated by taking care of these patients yourself.
The frustration that I had in the beginning of residency with FNDs has almost gone away.
 
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FWIW I'm not implying I was burned out but mostly stating the reasons I think people would be burned out. I was very burned out in residency and I very much disliked my job. I took a neurohospitalist consult only job straight out of an EEG fellowship and so far it's not too bad. We have 4 people, so someone covers the night strokes while you can get some rest. That being said, I don't get called for stat LPs or stat meningitis consults (thankfully), and I get to teach residents/med students so overall it's not a bad gig so far.
 
FWIW I'm not implying I was burned out but mostly stating the reasons I think people would be burned out. I was very burned out in residency and I very much disliked my job. I took a neurohospitalist consult only job straight out of an EEG fellowship and so far it's not too bad. We have 4 people, so someone covers the night strokes while you can get some rest. That being said, I don't get called for stat LPs or stat meningitis consults (thankfully), and I get to teach residents/med students so overall it's not a bad gig so far.
So in a group of 4, how does call coverage work? Each one gets assigned a week out of 4?

Also, do you cover stroke service as an EEG trained neurophysiologist?
 
So in a group of 4, how does call coverage work? Each one gets assigned a week out of 4?

Also, do you cover stroke service as an EEG trained neurophysiologist?

Telamir can say more about his hospital, But usually when its 4 people, its probably a busier program. Either they do 12 hour shifts each for 7 days and 7 off; or 24 hour shifts with 7 days inpatient and likely another week or two of outpatient.

You don't have to do any fellowship to be a neurohospitalist. Depends on your comfort level. Every neurologist who works inpatient should be comfortable with stroke management. EEGs/EMGs are an important skill but not mandatory.
I did a movement disorders fellowship, and haven't had much problems with inpatient Strokes or Neuro ICU patients. I also read EEGs.
 
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There's 4 of us, any given week there's 2 on. One person covers 7a-7pm and the other person covers 7p-7a. The night call is mostly from home and it's there to make sure the day person gets rest before coming in the next day. The night person may also come in for a few hours in the afternoon to decompress if there's a high case load. We usually see ~8-10 followup patients and get ~8-10 new consults a day if you count stroke alerts so it's pretty busy.

Also, as deathmerchant said, you see plenty of stroke in neurology residency. I trained in a comprehensive stroke center, so I got enough exposure to where I'm comfortable with it and also comfortable reading CTA/P. I read EEGs on the inpatients, but I don't do a TON of that. Also, he's correct you don't need a fellowship to do neurohospitalist. Out of the 4 of us there's 1 who is vascular/eeg trained, another with a neuroimaging fellowship and I'm EEG trained.
 
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I think Functional and Psychogenic disorders is an area of highest 'Unmet need' in medicine. As a neurologist, many residents learn to hate these conditions and patients.
If you look at the data, majority of studies and research on Functional Neurological Disorders are done by neurologists and rightly so. I would recommend to all young neurologists to consider and study FNDs as intensively equally as other subspecialties like Stroke, Epilepsy etc.. You will be able to help patients who have been ignored all their lives and have been in and out of hospitals and clinics without relief. And also, won't feel frustrated by taking care of these patients yourself.
The frustration that I had in the beginning of residency with FNDs has almost gone away.

Psychogenic neuro patients flat out suck. They comprised 1/3 of the patients I saw on my neuro outpatient rotation and I hated them. And I'm in psych. The difference between these neuro patients and psychiatry patients, and what makes them more infinitely difficult to treat, is that they are in deep, deep denial that they have a psychiatric problem and need to go see psychiatry.
 
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Psychogenic neuro patients flat out suck. They comprised 1/3 of the patients I saw on my neuro outpatient rotation and I hated them. And I'm in psych. The difference between these neuro patients and psychiatry patients, and what makes them more infinitely difficult to treat, is that they are in deep, deep denial that they have a psychiatric problem and need to go see psychiatry.

Agreed. It is a complex and frustrating problem. But since it is something we are going to see for all our careers, its better to have a good knowledge and strategy to deal with it. There's no point in hating them -
Most of us know these things but I would just make few points esp for younger trainees-

1. FNDs(Functional Neurological Disorders) have one of the highest CURE rate of all neurological and psychiatric conditions. In many expert centers with people focussing on these disorders it is upto 70%! So more the reason to be highly involved.

2. Most of the times these patients are not "faking" or "doing" it. Unless there is an obvious primary or secondary gain, think of these as a disease that is not in their control-- and 'Denial' could be considered a part of the syndrome. (Most humans are in denial about many things anyways!)

3. Possibly, some of the so called FNDs today, might actually turn out to be organic disorders in future with better understanding and technology. Dystonia is a classic example which used to be considered Psychogenic in the past.

4. Make sure once you are thinking an FND , you mention that to the patient as a differential (Its arguable at what stage you should mention), but don't wash your hands off and keep referring them for testing or to other physicians. It is NOT a 'rule out diagnosis'. Ive seen that is a difficult thing to do for many neurologists.

5. Just have a good approach. Learn and study the classic presentations, symptoms and signs, make a diagnosis, do appropriate testing, inform the patient and refer them to a Psychiatrist/ therapist or a neurologist/neuropsychiatrist who deal with these issues (and there are many nowadays). Also as I mentioned in my previous post, many psychiatrists are not interested in taking care of these patients, so its not really their responsibility.
Don't discharge the patient, have a regular follow up so that they don't feel abandoned.
 
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I’m up most of the night taking stroke call from surrounding communities. If its a tPA patient I have to meet them upon arrival (or w/n 30 min if its one of my ED’s). Same goes with intervention candidates. I also have to see ICH and document scores w/n 6 hrs. I also get STAT calls for LPs, meningitis (never did this in residency), status, unresponsive state, and GBS. Add this to a difficult functional patient during the day amd it can become depressing. Dont think psych has these timed-based metrics, but i could be wrong.

Are you in an academic setting? If not, this is insane. You should not be doing LPs if you are also covering stroke. Meningitis should be handled by ED and ID primarily while neurology is consulted for complications (seizures, stroke, venous thrombosis, etcs.) Night tPA cases can be handled by phone/telemedicine at home. ICH score can be given at home as well. If this is happening in a private setting, you need to escape ASAP. There are so many better jobs out there right now. Even if you get paid $600k for this, it is not worth it.
 
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Agreed. It is a complex and frustrating problem. But since it is something we are going to see for all our careers, its better to have a good knowledge and strategy to deal with it. There's no point in hating them -
Most of us know these things but I would just make few points esp for younger trainees-

1. FNDs(Functional Neurological Disorders) have one of the highest CURE rate of all neurological and psychiatric conditions. In many expert centers with people focussing on these disorders it is upto 70%! So more the reason to be highly involved.

2. Most of the times these patients are not "faking" or "doing" it. Unless there is an obvious primary or secondary gain, think of these as a disease that is not in their control-- and 'Denial' could be considered a part of the syndrome. (Most humans are in denial about many things anyways!)

3. Possibly, some of the so called FNDs today, might actually turn out to be organic disorders in future with better understanding and technology. Dystonia is a classic example which used to be considered Psychogenic in the past.

4. Make sure once you are thinking an FND , you mention that to the patient as a differential (Its arguable at what stage you should mention), but don't wash your hands off and keep referring them for testing or to other physicians. It is NOT a 'rule out diagnosis'. Ive seen that is a difficult thing to do for many neurologists.

5. Just have a good approach. Learn and study the classic presentations, symptoms and signs, make a diagnosis, do appropriate testing, inform the patient and refer them to a Psychiatrist/ therapist or a neurologist/neuropsychiatrist who deal with these issues (and there are many nowadays). Also as I mentioned in my previous post, many psychiatrists are not interested in taking care of these patients, so its not really their responsibility.
Don't discharge the patient, have a regular follow up so that they don't feel abandoned.

Great post. Some thoughts:

1. In these centers, they are taking only those who walk past a sign that says "functional neurologic disorder clinic." Let's not pretend that this is the same in the hospital or clinic. MANY of the people who get better also have true seizures or MS, so they get secondary gain that way.

2. True, but the proportion of malingerers who's disability depends on their illness will be hostile and even violent. Good times.

3. True conversion disorder IS a brain disorder. But their reaction to the diagnosis is the troubling problem. Many run into the rabbit holes of quackery. MANY refuse even to consider taking 10 mg of Paxil. Watch Netflix's Afflicted for more on that.

4. This is perfect advice. I'd also recommend keeping an open mind on folks who seem like pure conversion. Plenty of these pseudoseizure cases have electrographic seizures. Many times MS, stroke, peripheral cases have odd symptoms that are conversionish. Once a firm diagnosis of conversion disorder is given, it is about as solid as AD, PD, or the clinical diagnosis of stroke. But conversion is very under-diagnosed.

5. Neuro-psychiatrists are generally not useful for much outside the rare high level settings where they develop trials, know biostats, and are very skilled. Perhaps to reassure the worried well is the best thing to expect. I value them in clinical trials because then I don't have to do the metrics. But they don't think diagnostically or therapeutically. Psychologists are much more useful for these folks.
 
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Awesome thread

I have a feeling a lot of burnout centers around the above referenced difference between interest in the nuances of neurophysiology and direct patient care. I went through a crisis in residency where I had to resolve that problem and made it past.

Continuing to grow and learn helps keep me grounded. I left residency to take a hospital employed position in a beach community as a stroke director then went back 3 years later to do a neurophys fellowship - then 2 years in private practice in a small town where you do everything (stroke, EEG, EMG, LP, pain mgmt, VNS, peds, everything.....) - I LOVED that job - constantly required learning. Moved back near in-laws because of babies and now I direct an NP lab and do neurohospitalist work.

Stay busy - learn to enjoy "keeping score" on the wrvu front. Learn the in's and out's of how you make money. I've never made less than 400 and now around 600. Keep up with journals. I have a feeling many of the burned out folks are not the ones constantly moving but the folks that are trapped in fixed salary with minimal productivity bonus jobs where they are treated like cogs...maybe not though I'm not sure.
 
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God bless you dude,
I think I make about 2-3X the UML of salary for neurologists because I do less clinical medicine. I work very hard and a 40 hour week is sadly rare. I'm usually in the office for 10-12 hours 5 days a week. I still take call occasionally and when this is the case, I come in at all times. Because these are discrete events with firm horizons, I’m far from burnout in general. But because all of clinical medicine is so toxic these days, I think I’m usually burned out by the first few hours on call.

The reasons for burnout are not only multifactorial but highly individualistic. The biggest problem, to this individual's mind, is that neurology has historically drawn some of the brightest young men and women to the ranks. Most of us are interested in neuroscience, see the elegance in the nervous system, and see the extension of neuroscience into practical matters. In fact, neurology can be defined as practical neuroscience. So you take very smart people and have them deal with day to day neurology - there's a mismatch between expectations and reality and that generates burnout. If neurologists could lose 10-20 IQ points, they'd go to work, start gabapentin for tingling, hang out with stupid drug reps, and be much happier. But few of can do that. We've devoted ourselves to horrible, difficult and complex brain problems, then we're dissapointed by the reality that horrible difficult and complex brain problems are horrible and difficult and complex - in a world that doesn't value that. Instead, the world values unnecessary procedures more than a necessary consult that goes into doing the procedure or not.

But there are MANY other forces that make neurology an absolutely miserable slog. As @Ibn Alnafis MD pointed out, I've weighed in on this before. The worst catastrophe (it is so bad it could account for the top 5 burnout drivers) to affect our field has been the EMR. While this has affected other fields, most can offset this by concentrating on single issues. For example, imagine you do something discrete and curative like derm. (I recently spoke about this issue with @MOHS_01 on another thread). You can use an electronic template for pretty much anything you do: black spot, carved out, sew up, then note done. You concentrate on the patient, then the note takes care of itself. Neurology, on the other hand, requires both quick and easy gestault impression, but also careful thought about how to support one's thinking, degrees of conviction, possibilities if one is wrong. So we're affected disproportionately, along with other specialties like onc, rheum, and pcp's.

So add this process, thinking fast and slow if I can borrow the phrase, to the way we’re treated by the system. Patients tell me “they told me I need to see you to leave,” after getting admitted for dizziness, having the impression read dizziness, then getting an MRI, MRA, echo, and starting them on aspirin for what turns out to be syncope. We are getting turned from artisans to assembly line worker bees. It hurts. And with the rise of AI and advance practice folks in medicine, it is getting AND going to get FAR worse.

Add into this that not many patients get better (sure, you give tPA and get Lazarus effects but many are also screwed up and PD gets sinemet). We also give heavy news all the time. The seizure was caused by a tumor, it was a stroke, you have MS. All of these things are bad. And I haven’t even mentioned the PITA folks (and their families).

To combat it, you gotta find what you like doing and then do more of it.

God bless you dude,

that is exactly what I was talking about for a long time. Neurology provides necessary solutions to complex scenarios, but the system awards silly procedures more than what neurology provides. !

Thank you for expressing that thought.
 
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God bless you dude,


God bless you dude,

that is exactly what I was talking about for a long time. Neurology provides necessary solutions to complex scenarios, but the system awards silly procedures more than what neurology provides. !

Thank you for expressing that thought.

Well, you expressed it concisely. Weirdly the system also rewards the appearance of complexity. Difficult case that you think is an aphasia rather than mental status change. That’s a moderate complexity case. Add a diagnosis of hypertension to lock in the higher billing code. It loyally makes no sense, it isn’t supposed to. From what I gather, it is supposed to offer someone with a high school diploma a way of having a near minimum wage job.
 
Well, you expressed it concisely. Weirdly the system also rewards the appearance of complexity. Difficult case that you think is an aphasia rather than mental status change. That’s a moderate complexity case. Add a diagnosis of hypertension to lock in the higher billing code. It loyally makes no sense, it isn’t supposed to. From what I gather, it is supposed to offer someone with a high school diploma a way of having a near minimum wage job.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "it is supposed to offer someone with a high school diploma a way of having a near minimum wage job"?
 
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "it is supposed to offer someone with a high school diploma a way of having a near minimum wage job"?

People review the bills on either side, but you really only need to worry about the insurance company billers. They will review your note and see if it is up to the level of your code. They might have HS diplomas, perhaps not. They add nothing of value to the system or to medical care of a patient. They are only there to hassle you into documenting enough to turn your note (which is supposed to be doc to doc communication; an absolutely sacrosanct and vital part of medical care; which should contain the data from history and exam, and your impression, plan, and conversation) into a device for coding.

It is a bull**** job.

And don't think I discriminate based on lack of education. The highest bull**** job in that system are the peer to peer 'doctors' who went to med school and then try to deny therapies and imaging. They really suck.
 
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I’m up most of the night taking stroke call from surrounding communities. If its a tPA patient I have to meet them upon arrival (or w/n 30 min if its one of my ED’s). Same goes with intervention candidates. I also have to see ICH and document scores w/n 6 hrs. I also get STAT calls for LPs, meningitis (never did this in residency), status, unresponsive state, and GBS. Add this to a difficult functional patient during the day amd it can become depressing. Dont think psych has these timed-based metrics, but i could be wrong.
Wow, this is the worst job I've ever heard. If I had one, I would have been writing my "good bye" latter even before reading this post.
Anyway, It would be quite entertaining to see how this place is going to collapse after you leave it.
There are very few places left where LP is done not by IR, but a neurology.
ICH score? Ask them to call radiology for estimated ICH volume and calculate it themself, give blood pressure parameters and tell them to call neurosurgery.
Meningitis? LP is the part of IM training, you CANNOT be consulted STAT to do LP. It is within internal medicine?ER/Intensivist scope of practice to order broad spectrum antibiotics if CNS infection is suspected. This DOES NOT require your skills and expertise.
One of my buddy was in similar situation, not as bad as yours though. He was covering the hospital, taking night calls Q3-4 and doing clinic as well. So, finally, he left. They hired teleneurology company for strokes and couple of local neurologist to take consults. And guess what? They are desperately looking for more neurologists there for 3 years, nobody wants to join, even with teleneuro. When looking for a job, I always try to discover why a former physician left. This might be the most important piece of information you learn from the interview.
One of the most funnies replies:
- How many calls he was taking?
- He was pretty much on-call 365 days/year. But that was his choice, because he wanted to build the practice.
- Build the practice? I can go to any region in the country and in 2 months at most my schedule will be full.
- Well, our hospital bylaw requires to take only 7 calls per month, but he elected to be on call every day.
- Was there anyone to cover for him for the rest of the days?
- No, but....
People do not learn.
Disclaimer: this post is just an opinion and not a legal advise. All above is a fiction and never took place in real life.
 
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Wow, this is the worst job I've ever heard. If I had one, I would have been writing my "good bye" latter even before reading this post.
Anyway, It would be quite entertaining to see how this place is going to collapse after you leave it.
There are very few places left where LP is done not by IR, but a neurology.
ICH score? Ask them to call radiology for estimated ICH volume and calculate it themself, give blood pressure parameters and tell them to call neurosurgery.
Meningitis? LP is the part of IM training, you CANNOT be consulted STAT to do LP. It is within internal medicine?ER/Intensivist scope of practice to order broad spectrum antibiotics if CNS infection is suspected. This DOES NOT require your skills and expertise.
One of my buddy was in similar situation, not as bad as yours though. He was covering the hospital, taking night calls Q3-4 and doing clinic as well. So, finally, he left. They hired teleneurology company for strokes and couple of local neurologist to take consults. And guess what? They are desperately looking for more neurologists there for 3 years, nobody wants to join, even with teleneuro. When looking for a job, I always try to discover why a former physician left. This might be the most important piece of information you learn from the interview.
One of the most funnies replies:
- How many calls he was taking?
- He was pretty much on-call 365 days/year. But that was his choice, because he wanted to build the practice.
- Build the practice? I can go to any region in the country and in 2 months at most my schedule will be full.
- Well, our hospital bylaw requires to take only 7 calls per month, but he elected to be on call every day.
- Was there anyone to cover for him for the rest of the days?
- No, but....
People do not learn.
Disclaimer: this post is just an opinion and not a legal advise. All above is a fiction and never took place in real life.

I agree completely. I left after 1.5 years and I’m in a much better place now.
 
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I agree completely. I left after 1.5 years and I’m in a much better place now.

And I’m sure the admins at the last place blame you as they search for another sucker to do impossible work. They won’t change towards a sustainable model. Now they don’t get a neurologist and all the downstream revenue you brought.

Congratulations on the new gig.
 
I agree completely. I left after 1.5 years and I’m in a much better place now.
Congrats!
I wish more and more neurologists refuse such an insane work schedule and not just look at the salary numbers. Good luck!
 
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