Neurologist lifestyle, day-to-day work?

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HenryH

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Hey guys. I'm curious: what is the typical work-day of a neurologist like? What does one actually "do?"

We have recently begun studying the nervous system in my A&P class, and I am becoming more and more fascinated with the concepts and processes of action potentials among nerve cells.

Also, please describe the typical outside-of-work lifestyle (family time, on/off-call time, etc.). Also, how does the future look for neurologists? Are there any major reimbursement reforms, etc. on the horizon for neurology?

Thanks!

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What does one actually "do?"

One generally sees patients. You diagnose, evaluate and treat. Usually this involves both inpatients and outpatients, although depending on the practice there may be more or less of one or the other. Like internal medicine, neurology is increasingly using hospitalists to manage inpatients. If you are in an academic setting you may also teach and/or do research.

You may or may not also do diagnostic testing such as lumbar punctures, EEG, EMG, or sleep studies. A few neurologists are trained in interventional neurovascular techniques.

There are many subspecialties with in neurology, so you may end up seeing mostly stroke, mostly epilepsy, mostly movement disorders etc depending on your interests. The vast majority of neurologists, however, do still see at least some random "general neurology" patients who may be outside their subspecialty interest.

Lifestyle depends on practice environment. In private practice, the surprising truth is that you can generally work as much or as little as you want to, but your income will directly reflect the amount you work (i.e., no work = no money coming in from insurance companies = no pay). Income in private practice for neurology can range from under $100K to well over $300K, but at that level you will be super-super-busy. If you are directly employed by a hospital or HMO, you will likely lose this freedom to set your own workload, but generally have a "guaranteed" level of salary.

Also, please describe the typical outside-of-work lifestyle (family time, on/off-call time, etc.).

Family time depends on how much time you choose/need to devote to work. Again, can be highly variable, especially in private practice. Just remember that whenever you're not at work, you're not making money . . .

Call is highly variable. If you are in a large group practice you may only be on call once or twice a month. If you are the only neurologist for 100 miles, your call may be pretty frequent. Also, being called at night doesn't necessarily mean you have to run in and see the patient in the ER (unlike residency, where that's required). If you're affiliated with a group that has hospitalist physicians or a really strong ER, you may just discuss the case over the phone and then actually go see the patient the next day.

Also, how does the future look for neurologists? Are there any major reimbursement reforms, etc. on the horizon for neurology?

Looks great for neurologists because neurologic disease clearly will increase with the aging of the population. Particular areas that will really take off are stroke, dementia, movement disorders, and sleep.

The increasing need does not, however, necessarily correlate with increasing income, which goes to the point of your last question. There are always going to be reimbursement changes. Almost always they will be in the downward direction (although there are exceptions. for example, the reimbursement for hospital stroke care was recently increased). The major income generators in neurology right now are EMG and sleep studies; if there are big decreases in reimbursement for those, neuro will take a major hit.
 
Income in private practice for neurology can range from under $100K to well over $300K, but at that level you will be super-super-busy.

Yikes, I thought that type of salary was restricted to doing research at academic institutions..I'm not in medicine for the money, but I'll have some big bills to pay when I'm finally through. Out of curiosity, where have you seen that small a salary, and what kind of hours would that entail....2 dayish work week?
 
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Median for neurologists is between 180-200K (depending upon how it was done). This is gross - expenses.

Median academic salaries ('05-'06) in Neurology (all types of Med Schools public, private).

Instructor - 98K
Assistant Professor - 130K
Associate Professor - 160K
Professor - 195K
Chair - a lot more
 
Yikes, I thought that type of salary was restricted to doing research at academic institutions..I'm not in medicine for the money, but I'll have some big bills to pay when I'm finally through. Out of curiosity, where have you seen that small a salary, and what kind of hours would that entail....2 dayish work week?

In most private practices, salary has a significant productivity component; in some, salary is 100% productivity based. Lots of patients & procedures = more money. It is very possible to do no billable procedures, see fewer patients (like by spending more time with any given patient or just by being plain inefficient) and make less money. Such a person may be tolerated by a group in general as long as they pull call, cover their overhead, and provide some useful service to the group as a whole (like maybe handholding all the chronic daily headache patients!).
 
Median for neurologists is between 180-200K (depending upon how it was done). This is gross - expenses.

Median academic salaries ('05-'06) in Neurology (all types of Med Schools public, private).

Instructor - 98K
Assistant Professor - 130K
Associate Professor - 160K
Professor - 195K
Chair - a lot more

So I could expect to make around the 200k range as a neurologist -- that really isn't too bad...
 
One generally sees patients. You diagnose, evaluate and treat. Usually this involves both inpatients and outpatients, although depending on the practice there may be more or less of one or the other. Like internal medicine, neurology is increasingly using hospitalists to manage inpatients. If you are in an academic setting you may also teach and/or do research.

You may or may not also do diagnostic testing such as lumbar punctures, EEG, EMG, or sleep studies. A few neurologists are trained in interventional neurovascular techniques.

There are many subspecialties with in neurology, so you may end up seeing mostly stroke, mostly epilepsy, mostly movement disorders etc depending on your interests. The vast majority of neurologists, however, do still see at least some random "general neurology" patients who may be outside their subspecialty interest.

Lifestyle depends on practice environment. In private practice, the surprising truth is that you can generally work as much or as little as you want to, but your income will directly reflect the amount you work (i.e., no work = no money coming in from insurance companies = no pay). Income in private practice for neurology can range from under $100K to well over $300K, but at that level you will be super-super-busy. If you are directly employed by a hospital or HMO, you will likely lose this freedom to set your own workload, but generally have a "guaranteed" level of salary.



Family time depends on how much time you choose/need to devote to work. Again, can be highly variable, especially in private practice. Just remember that whenever you're not at work, you're not making money . . .

Call is highly variable. If you are in a large group practice you may only be on call once or twice a month. If you are the only neurologist for 100 miles, your call may be pretty frequent. Also, being called at night doesn't necessarily mean you have to run in and see the patient in the ER (unlike residency, where that's required). If you're affiliated with a group that has hospitalist physicians or a really strong ER, you may just discuss the case over the phone and then actually go see the patient the next day.



Looks great for neurologists because neurologic disease clearly will increase with the aging of the population. Particular areas that will really take off are stroke, dementia, movement disorders, and sleep.

The increasing need does not, however, necessarily correlate with increasing income, which goes to the point of your last question. There are always going to be reimbursement changes. Almost always they will be in the downward direction (although there are exceptions. for example, the reimbursement for hospital stroke care was recently increased). The major income generators in neurology right now are EMG and sleep studies; if there are big decreases in reimbursement for those, neuro will take a major hit.


Thanks for such a great post! :thumbup:
 
So I could expect to make around the 200k range as a neurologist -- that really isn't too bad...

It all depends on your perspective and your financial desires. $200K puts you very solidly in at least the 95% percentile for income in the country. But there are other specialties (ortho, neurosurg, radiology) that easily make double that amount.

Another alternative, of course, is to become a corporate CEO and negotiate a sweet contract deal that pays you $millions in severance when you finally get fired for running the company into the ground :laugh:
 
Another alternative, of course, is to become a corporate CEO and negotiate a sweet contract deal that pays you $millions in severance when you finally get fired for running the company into the ground :laugh:

Where do I sign up? :thumbup::laugh:
 
One generally sees patients. You diagnose, evaluate and treat. Usually this involves both inpatients and outpatients, although depending on the practice there may be more or less of one or the other. Like internal medicine, neurology is increasingly using hospitalists to manage inpatients. If you are in an academic setting you may also teach and/or do research.

You may or may not also do diagnostic testing such as lumbar punctures, EEG, EMG, or sleep studies. A few neurologists are trained in interventional neurovascular techniques.

There are many subspecialties with in neurology, so you may end up seeing mostly stroke, mostly epilepsy, mostly movement disorders etc depending on your interests. The vast majority of neurologists, however, do still see at least some random "general neurology" patients who may be outside their subspecialty interest.

Lifestyle depends on practice environment. In private practice, the surprising truth is that you can generally work as much or as little as you want to, but your income will directly reflect the amount you work (i.e., no work = no money coming in from insurance companies = no pay). Income in private practice for neurology can range from under $100K to well over $300K, but at that level you will be super-super-busy. If you are directly employed by a hospital or HMO, you will likely lose this freedom to set your own workload, but generally have a "guaranteed" level of salary.



Family time depends on how much time you choose/need to devote to work. Again, can be highly variable, especially in private practice. Just remember that whenever you're not at work, you're not making money . . .

Call is highly variable. If you are in a large group practice you may only be on call once or twice a month. If you are the only neurologist for 100 miles, your call may be pretty frequent. Also, being called at night doesn't necessarily mean you have to run in and see the patient in the ER (unlike residency, where that's required). If you're affiliated with a group that has hospitalist physicians or a really strong ER, you may just discuss the case over the phone and then actually go see the patient the next day.



Looks great for neurologists because neurologic disease clearly will increase with the aging of the population. Particular areas that will really take off are stroke, dementia, movement disorders, and sleep.

The increasing need does not, however, necessarily correlate with increasing income, which goes to the point of your last question. There are always going to be reimbursement changes. Almost always they will be in the downward direction (although there are exceptions. for example, the reimbursement for hospital stroke care was recently increased). The major income generators in neurology right now are EMG and sleep studies; if there are big decreases in reimbursement for those, neuro will take a major hit.

As a neurologist, do you often meet the same patients over and over again? Can you cure most of your patients or do you just put them on medications? Do neurologists ever do minor operations?
 
The neurologist I shadowed spent about 40 hours per week in clinic seeing patients, and then other time doing paperwork, etc.. He said that, all in all, he spent about 70 hours per week on some kind of work.
 
Holy zombie thread, batman

As a neurologist, do you often meet the same patients over and over again? Can you cure most of your patients or do you just put them on medications? Do neurologists ever do minor operations?

1- yes, there is quite a bit of continuity of care since we deal with a lot of degenerative process and disease processes that can get stabilized or in remission

2- I personally think this is a stupid way to look at it, medicine and even surgery "cure" few people if you think about it... most people seeing us have some medication we give them and manage. I can't "cure" someone from having another stroke but can reduce risks, and I'm technically not "curing" medically managed epilepsy but a lot of people are happy to take keppra twice a day and not have seizures as opposed to trying to come up with a way to go into their brain and swap out ion channels. Futhermore there are some "cures" out there that leave people with permanent disabilities- take taxane induced neuropathy from breast cancer treatment or people who had their abdominal issue "cured" but are on their 5th revision and counting of their ventral hernia/mesh nightmare. Honestly I don't ever think I hear any doctors use the word "cure". That is my soapbox, I will step down.

3- only if you consider chemodenervation injections, needle based electrodiagnosis, and the occasional central line in an ICU setting if you're the team that does that. Movement disorder specialists are often in the OR for DBS implantation to tell where the electrodes are to be placed, and some epileptologists go into the OR for epilepsy surgery. But for the most part, no
 
Random question....does EMG tend to be more lucrative than EEG, or vice versa? Also, are most epilepsy specialists also board certified in neurophysiology with a focus on EEG? If so, I would image this allows them obtain a good balance between procedures (which, let's be honest, is what pays the bills) and interaction with patients.
 
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Random question....does EMG tend to be more lucrative than EEG, or vice versa? Also, are most epilepsy specialists also board certified in neurophysiology with a focus on EEG? If so, I would image this allows them obtain a good balance between procedures (which, let's be honest, is what pays the bills) and interaction with patients.

It all depends!! A number of neurophysiology fellowships corner you into either EMG or EEG concentration while some do 50/50. There is usually some exposure to your "non-interest" so to speak. For example, a neuromuscular fellowship may force you to do at least one month of EEG. So, what you get varies from institution to institution.

The reimbursement for a routine 30 minute EEG is not going to keep your doors open. I think we all know how sick we are over the cuts on EMG. I am not sure how lucrative epilepsy monitoring is? From what I have seen, most hospitals that have an epilepsy monitoring ward admit patients for studies and their attending is at least a board certified neurophysiologist with an interest in epilepsy/EEG. Patients stay for a few days, get their studies, and go home. An epileptolgist that I rotated with during residency spent his morning on the ward reviewing studies and rounding and saw patients in his clinic in the afternoon. If his office screwed up and a few patients did not show up at the begining of the week for admission to the ward, he was one the phone yelling and screaming at somebody that he was "losing money". So I assume that if you want to be an epileptologist, then yes, you need to keep a stead stream of patients on your epilepsy ward.

At the end of the day, the ABPN has three certifications, Neuromuscular, Epilepsy, and Neurophysiology. I personally feel that if you are going to go out there and market yourself as an expert, then you need to have one of these certifications under your belt. The ABPN site will tell you what the minimal requirements are to apply for one of these certification exams.
 
Now that this topic is up, I'm wondering if anyone has any information on the field of Behavioral Neurology. Specifically I'm interested in knowing if the work hours are good and if earnings are at least comparable to general neurology. I'm also interested in knowing if being a behavioral neurologist, the equivalent to neuropsychiatrist, would allow the clinician to see psychiatry-only patients or if you're pretty much boxed into general neuro + the patients the fit behavioral neurology box.
 
Now that this topic is up, I'm wondering if anyone has any information on the field of Behavioral Neurology. Specifically I'm interested in knowing if the work hours are good and if earnings are at least comparable to general neurology. I'm also interested in knowing if being a behavioral neurologist, the equivalent to neuropsychiatrist, would allow the clinician to see psychiatry-only patients or if you're pretty much boxed into general neuro + the patients the fit behavioral neurology box.

Out here in the private practice world, we are seeing a trend of medicare plus programs. From what I have been told, you MUST pre-authorize neuropsychological testing. I used to add on CPT coding for neuropsychological testing whenever I used to do my initial evalutaion of dementia patients and it has become a nightmare as well!! So, all in all, the insurance companies are become more and more restrictive on this.

Likely, BNgist will thrive in the academic world only.
 
Now that this topic is up, I'm wondering if anyone has any information on the field of Behavioral Neurology. Specifically I'm interested in knowing if the work hours are good and if earnings are at least comparable to general neurology. I'm also interested in knowing if being a behavioral neurologist, the equivalent to neuropsychiatrist, would allow the clinician to see psychiatry-only patients or if you're pretty much boxed into general neuro + the patients the fit behavioral neurology box.

As a behavioral neurologist you will see your specialty people and to fill out your schedule you will see general neurology patients (seizures, headaches, tremors) and not general psych stuff
 
How about Headache Neurology in the private practice world? I've heard it's possible to tailor your private practice strictly to HA medicine. How feasible is this really? I'd imagine Botox would bring in good revenue. Thanks!
 
Headache medicine has some 1 year fellowships out there, and there certainly are private practice people who devote most or even all of their practice to that. There are also dedicated headache clinics with multidisciplinary groups and accupuncture, yoga, yada yada yada. I imagine a lot of that is private pay as well.

But then you have to deal with headache patients all day long. I don't think I'd enjoy that.
 
How about Headache Neurology in the private practice world? I've heard it's possible to tailor your private practice strictly to HA medicine. How feasible is this really? I'd imagine Botox would bring in good revenue. Thanks!

I think you could easily have a clinic that is exclusive for headache (or insomnia for that matter). If you actually don't mind certain tricky traits of the headache patients, then this is a potentially lucrative idea (like pain medicine in general). You could feasibly have a cash only practice in this area if you wanted.

Many neurologists, including me, entertained the idea of doing headache briefly. Particularly those of us, like me, who are migraneurs. There is something poetic in helping your fellow human with a problem that you personally suffer from.

However, one problem may be that what you're thinking of as "headache patients" may in fact be the typical folks you see in a PCP's office with headache.

Patients who have made it past a PCP and a neurologist (or several) to graduate up to a fellowship-trained headache specialist at a pure headache clinic are...not the average patient. I urge you to do a rotation with a bona fide headache person before getting enraptured with the idea.
 
anyone have an idea of the lifestyle of a neurohospitalist?
is it 7on/7off like a medicine hospitalist?
would you have to train in stroke/critical ccare?
 
How about Headache Neurology in the private practice world? I've heard it's possible to tailor your private practice strictly to HA medicine. How feasible is this really? I'd imagine Botox would bring in good revenue. Thanks!

Botox is very expensive and you what you make money on are the chemodenervation codes which they have changed in 2013 as well. Now just one code = less money, just like our EMG counterparts!! Believe it or not, I make more money doing trigger point injections or an occipital nerve block!!

You can make a pretty good penny in the headache world on doing outpatient infusions, if you do it right and code correctly.
 
Typical outpatient private practice neurology day in 2013:

1) See patients
2) See overhead expenses exceed revenue
3) Try to see more patients
4) Get behind
5) Try to think of other sources of revenue
6) Get depressed
7) FMLA/disability paperwork
8) Repeat

Do yourself a favor and find another specialty. Given the current climate, there may not be another safe harbor.
 
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