Need Help Deciding If I Should Re-write a Decent/Strong MCAT Score for US and Canadian schools

[striders02]

Hi all,

I'm a 3rd year Canadian undergrad student with an MCAT score of 131/127/131/128 (517 total). My GPA is ~3.98, I have strong non-clinical ECs and clinical research experience, but very little 'patient exposure' ECs (shadowing, volunteering in a clinical setting, etc.- will definitely work on that before applying to US).

My 127 CARS shuts some doors in Canada so I'm considering re-writing. However, I'm concerned that re-writing will harm my chances at US med schools, as I've heard that US schools in general don't look favorably on re-writing without substantial improvement (I know that some US schools state on their website that they look at the most recent or highest MCAT, but I've seen others recommend interpreting those statements cautiously). I don't think I will be able to 'substantially improve'; realistically, my goal is to get a similar overall score with just a couple points higher in CARS.

I believe I could submit a Canadian application this upcoming cycle because Canada does not frown upon re-applicants so the potential of getting rejected this cycle is not a deterrent. However, I would need an additional year to get my US application prepared.

Should I re-write the MCAT - bolstering my Canadian application if CARS improves (even if total score decreases) but potentially harming my US app - or just apply with my current MCAT score (in the 2017/18 cycle for Canada and in the 2018/19 cycle for US and Canada)?

This 're-write' question has been eating away at me so any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks so much and happy holidays!

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[HomeSkool]

If you retake an excellent MCAT, you may open a couple doors in Canada and close a couple dozen in the US. Do the math!

Also, don't make @Goro reach through the electrons and smack you. Just don't.

 

[getdown]

keep it and apply. You're competitive as is. You can only accept one school to attend.

 

[Oso]

If you don't think you can significantly improve your score, like you said, then I would just keep it as is and focus on other aspects of your application that you can work on (clinical experience). Good luck.

 

[bananafish94]

If you retake an MCAT score in the 95th percentile I will personally find you and stare at you incredulously.

 

[bioboy23]

If you retake an MCAT score in the 95th percentile I will personally find you and stare at you incredulously.

Idk about you but I would try to avoid this at all costs, OP.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

My 127 CARS shuts some doors in Canada

Dang, is this actually true?!? That's insane. Definitely don't retake this score, OP. I will seriously cry if you do considering I didn't retake my sub-510 score.

 

[VincentAdultman]

This is why I come to the premed forum.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

If you retake an excellent MCAT, you may open a couple doors in Canada and close a couple dozen in the US. Do the math!

Also, don't make @Goro reach through the electrons and smack you. Just don't.

@HomeSkool brings up a good point, do the math. What matters more to you, spending 1-2 extra years applying to Canada schools until you get in (with your stats and decent ECs you'll get in eventually if you're not the world's worst interviewer) or spending ~200k more in tuition as an international student at a US school?

Personally in your position, which was more-or-less my position a few years ago, I'd apply to Canadian schools for at least 2-3 cycles then add on American schools after that if need be. You're a strong applicant in Canada, and unless you're a dual citizen or really want to practice/live in the states, stick with the country that is superior in every way. I don't think that means re-writing is a good idea though. Mac cares a lot about VR/CARS and if you have top grades a 10 VR is good enough to get an interview, and I believe that's roughly a 127 CARS.

I know everyone is giving you a hard time here, but they're Americans who aren't familiar with the Canadian system. For the yanks, there just aren't that many Canadian med schools and they're much less holistic, if you're a superstar applicant but got a 125 on CARS there are several of the few schools that will throw your application in the garbage. OP I understand the impulse to try to rectify that, but I don't think a 127 is bad enough to warrant that. Plus if you're able to finance going to the US anyway, it's not worth risking your otherwise fantastic MCAT.

 

[VincentAdultman]

stick with the country that is superior in every way.

Trolling....on Christmas Eve?

 

[Master Thinker]

Trolling....on Christmas Eve?

Everyone knows Canada is America-lite

And OP, I think it would be a terrible idea to retake a 517 MCAT. A 127 on CARS isn't even bad.

 

[FlameGrilledChicken]

Haha I feel your pain so badly. I scored a 523 but a 129 in CARS and was basically shut out from even applying at 1 or 2 canadian schools. Also flat-out rejected pre-interview from 2 others that heavily weigh CARS ... BUT ... I have had 2 IIs in the states so far and I obviously I would never retake. I would counsel you also to not retake that especially if you would be happy to go to a US school

 

[striders02]

Thanks all for weighing in. Before responding directly to some of the feedback, I should note: I think in my OP I didn't adequately emphasize how detrimental a 127 CARS is in Canada, especially for an Ontario non-SWOMEN applicant such as myself: out of 14 English-speaking medical schools, it completely bars me from 3 and significantly curtails my chances at 3. Those numbers are subject to change a bit depending on what you count as 'significant' but the general point is that 127 CARS in Canada is a major setback, regardless of the total MCAT score.

That aside, this thread has definitely helped ground my perspective on the impact that a re-write would have on my American chances. I understand that re-taking a 517 MCAT would make many/most ad coms look at my judgment quizzically, and - from the US perspective - the opportunity cost of re-studying for the MCAT is too high, especially since I'm lacking in patient exposure ECs that I could focus on instead.

Seems like a tough spot I'm in, where the optimal path for Canadian med school prep may diverge from the optimal path for American med school prep. Thanks to the responders who gave Canada-specific feedback as well; maybe it would be okay to just apply Canadian with my current MCAT, but it's a hard pill to swallow given that my current MCAT closes so many Canadian doors. I guess I just have some soul-searching to do, and the advice I've received in this thread will inform that - thanks again!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Wow I didn't think schools in Canada were that strict on MCAT or CARS scores. That's insane... So basically you have to be a genius to be in Medical school in Canada. Oh well... I got in this cycle with a 500 score and a 125 in CARS.

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[Welshman]

Wow I didn't think schools in Canada were that strict on MCAT or CARS scores. That's insane... So basically you have to be a genius to be in Medical school in Canada. Oh well... I got in this cycle with a 500 score and a 125 in CARS.

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[Lucca]

FWIW I’d be interested in hearing the adcom perspective on retaking a 516 given that the applicant is Canadian and has a good reason to want to improve their CARS section.

As far as American schools are concerned, I’m not quite sure myself if retaking is inherently bad. It’s the opinion of two adcoms on here that it’s a red flag but idk how prevalent this position actually is. At many schools it might raise eyebrows, but I’ve had friends retake 514/515s for higher and be rewarded come admissions time. (One program director at a conference I was at asked for my scores when I told them I was planning to apply and literally said I should consider retaking a 516 to “dispel any doubts about my ability to handle med school”)

Also Canada is the superior country so in your shoes I’d want to stay there as well.

 

[Lawpy]

If you retake an excellent MCAT, you may open a couple doors in Canada and close a couple dozen in the US. Do the math!

Also, don't make @Goro reach through the electrons and smack you. Just don't.

If you retake an MCAT score in the 95th percentile I will personally find you and stare at you incredulously.

Well there are a few on here who retook a 516-517 and got a 526-528 and they retook for reasons similar to OP. Canada med schools are especially picky. And the retake certainly didn’t hurt them as they got acceptances from a lot of Top 20 schools.

Mid tiers and low tiers would yield protect against these applicants.

@HomeSkool brings up a good point, do the math. What matters more to you, spending 1-2 extra years applying to Canada schools until you get in (with your stats and decent ECs you'll get in eventually if you're not the world's worst interviewer) or spending ~200k more in tuition as an international student at a US school?

Personally in your position, which was more-or-less my position a few years ago, I'd apply to Canadian schools for at least 2-3 cycles then add on American schools after that if need be. You're a strong applicant in Canada, and unless you're a dual citizen or really want to practice/live in the states, stick with the country that is superior in every way. I don't think that means re-writing is a good idea though. Mac cares a lot about VR/CARS and if you have top grades a 10 VR is good enough to get an interview, and I believe that's roughly a 127 CARS.

I know everyone is giving you a hard time here, but they're Americans who aren't familiar with the Canadian system. For the yanks, there just aren't that many Canadian med schools and they're much less holistic, if you're a superstar applicant but got a 125 on CARS there are several of the few schools that will throw your application in the garbage. OP I understand the impulse to try to rectify that, but I don't think a 127 is bad enough to warrant that. Plus if you're able to finance going to the US anyway, it's not worth risking your otherwise fantastic MCAT.

This is why I always try to tag you on Canadian matters.

 

[striders02]

FWIW I’d be interested in hearing the adcom perspective on retaking a 516 given that the applicant is Canadian and has a good reason to want to improve their CARS section.

As far as American schools are concerned, I’m not quite sure myself if retaking is inherently bad. It’s the opinion of two adcoms on here that it’s a red flag but idk how prevalent this position actually is. At many schools it might raise eyebrows, but I’ve had friends retake 514/515s for higher and be rewarded come admissions time. (One program director at a conference I was at asked for my scores when I told them I was planning to apply and literally said I should consider retaking a 516 to “dispel any doubts about my ability to handle med school”)

Also Canada is the superior country so in your shoes I’d want to stay there as well.

While there are Canadian-specific factors that make a re-take justifiable in my case, and I could explain those in a US interview if asked, my concern is that re-taking a 517 may prevent me from receiving the interview offer in the first place. I'm glad to hear that you know people who've re-taken scores similar to mine and still got some luck with interviews- perhaps I've over-estimated the 'eyebrow raising effect' of a re-write.

Another thing that makes me a bit less concerned about re-writing is that many US MDs state that they don't consider all MCAT attempts and just look at highest or most recent score. Even if some admissions committee members at those schools actually do frown upon re-writes without substantial improvement, I imagine that in general ad coms likely follow the 'party line' stated by the school on how to deal with multiple MCAT attempts. Additionally, the extent to which a re-write is frowned upon in my case may be mitigated by the fact that I have fairly good scores. Maybe I could re-write and then focus on applying to US schools that look at highest or most recent MCAT as opposed to ones that focus on MCAT progression over multiple attempts. Does that seem like a reasonable plan? And agreed, I would also be interested in hearing ad com perspectives.

Well there are a few on here who retook a 516-517 and got a 526-528 and they retook for reasons similar to OP. Canada med schools are especially picky. And the retake certainly didn’t hurt them as they got acceptances from a lot of Top 20 schools.

Mid tiers and low tiers would yield protect against these applicants.

Realistically I don't think I could get 526-528, but I'm quite confident I could at least equal my previous total score and I'm even fairly confident I could increase my total score by a few points. I think I can reliably average 130.5 across CP and BB so I'm not too worried about losing marks in those sections on a re-write. I understudied PS since it's not that important in Canada so I believe I could safely raise my score by a point or two there, and I also think I can improve in CARS since 127 was an anomalously low CARS score for me - so I think at least 517 is safe and there's a decent chance of 520 as well. I do acknowledge however that even though I believe I could do well on an MCAT re-write, there's still the opportunity cost of a re-take to consider, which is quite high given that I need to work on my patient exposure ECs.

 

[Lawpy]

Realistically I don't think I could get 526-528, but I'm quite confident I could at least equal my previous total score and I'm even fairly confident I could increase my total score by a few points. I think I can reliably average 130.5 across CP and BB so I'm not too worried about losing marks in those sections on a re-write. I understudied PS since it's not that important in Canada so I believe I could safely raise my score by a point or two there, and I also think I can improve in CARS since 127 was an anomalously low CARS score for me - so I think at least 517 is safe and there's a decent chance of 520 as well. I do acknowledge however that even though I believe I could do well on an MCAT re-write, there's still the opportunity cost of a re-take to consider, which is quite high given that I need to work on my patient exposure ECs.

The only problem with retaking 517 is you are effectively eliminating all low tier and many mid tier options in the US since they will yield protect you for retaking a score that high. So this leaves only the top schools as your US options, which essentially requires you to get at least a 522 on the retake. If you are retaking to get into Canadian schools, you're looking at 130+ in CARS. So retaking a 517 is a high risk/high reward option that only you can decide based on your personal performance and practice test scores. People have retaken 517s, got upper 520s and dominated their cycle.

But understand that scoring 517 again is bad for most US schools (low tiers/mid tiers would condemn you for retaking a 517, top tiers would view 517 to be too low). And obviously, scoring below 517 is very bad news.

 

[striders02]

The only problem with retaking 517 is you are effectively eliminating all low tier and many mid tier options in the US since they will yield protect you for retaking a score that high... scoring 517 again is bad for most US schools (low tiers/mid tiers would condemn you for retaking a 517, top tiers would view 517 to be too low). And obviously, scoring below 517 is very bad news.

Jeez, I hadn't even heard of yield protection, thank you for bringing that to my attention! I don't think we have that in Canada since the concept of low vs. high tier isn't as present as it is in the states.

I can definitely see how re-taking a 517 would result in yield protection, as the re-take will be interpreted as an effort to increase competitiveness for top-tier. Out of curiosity, do you think a 517 w/ good GPA would cause some degree of yield protection by itself, without a re-write? (Trying to get a sense of the disparity between current yield protection vs. post-retake yield protection)

 

[Lawpy]

Jeez, I hadn't even heard of yield protection, thank you for bringing that to my attention! I don't think we have that in Canada since the concept of low vs. high tier isn't as present as it is in the states.

I can definitely see how re-taking a 517 would result in yield protection, as the re-take will be interpreted as an effort to increase competitiveness for top-tier. Out of curiosity, do you think a 517 w/ good GPA would cause some degree of yield protection by itself, without a re-write? (Trying to get a sense of the disparity between current yield protection vs. post-retake yield protection)

Generally no. The best way to assess which schools will yield protect you is to buy the MSAR online and look at the 90th percentile MCAT scores for accepted applicants at various US schools. If your score is greater than the 90th percentile, it's probably a good bet that you'll be yield protected. 517 generally falls within or around the 90th percentile for most schools and around the median/slightly below median for top schools.

 

[striders02]

Okay gotcha, thanks very much. After putting some more thought into this yield protection concept I have one more follow-up question: given that yield protection stems from the assumption that the candidate will get accepted into a "better" medical school, if I were to re-take and get a similar score, why would low/mid tier schools be more likely to yield protect me? If I have a similar score then I don't have a higher likelihood of getting into top tier schools than I did before the re-take, so I would expect the amount of yield protection to remain about the same.

I recognize that re-taking and getting a similar score looks bad to US schools for other reasons. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether that harm (the harm of similar score on a re-write) is compounded by yield protection, as opposed to yield protection only being a concern if I do substantially better on the re-write.

 

[Lawpy]

Okay gotcha, thanks very much. After putting some more thought into this yield protection concept I have one more follow-up question: given that yield protection stems from the assumption that the candidate will get accepted into a "better" medical school, if I were to re-take and get a similar score, why would low/mid tier schools be more likely to yield protect me? If I have a similar score then I don't have a higher likelihood of getting into top tier schools than I did before the re-take, so I would expect the amount of yield protection to remain about the same.

I recognize that re-taking and getting the same score looks bad for other reasons. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether that harm (the harm of similar score on a re-write) is compounded by yield protection, as opposed to yield protection only being a concern if I do substantially better on the re-write.

They technically wouldn't yield protect you for scoring 517s both times, but they will reject you for making bad decisions (remember, yield protection is still a rejection). For these schools, 517 is a very strong score that should not be retaken. The fact that you did retake shows to them that you were aiming for more competitive/top schools. Doing the same on the retake only worsens your woes because these schools would wonder why you retook 517 in the first place and would ding you for making bad choices.

Yield protection is just a specific type of rejection used by schools to avoid wasting these spots on applicants who will ultimately end up at higher places.

 

[striders02]

This has all been very helpful- I'm really in the dark about the US application process so thanks for all the info! I don't mean to keep bugging you but I do have one final question. So far it sounds like:

• if I take the MCAT and do better, low and mid tiers will yield protect me
• if I take the MCAT and do similarly, schools will frown upon my re-write without improvement

Regarding that second point, I've noticed that while some med schools state that they consider all MCAT attempts, others only consider the highest or most recent or average MCAT score. If I were to get a similar score on a re-write, do you think those schools would still view that negatively or since their policy is to just look at highest/most recent/average they would not be concerned about my lack of performance progression across multiple MCAT attempts?

 

[Lawpy]

This has all been very helpful- I'm really in the dark about the US application process so thanks for all the info! I don't mean to keep bugging you but I do have one final question. So far it sounds like:

• if I take the MCAT and do better, low and mid tiers will yield protect me
• if I take the MCAT and do similarly, schools will frown upon my re-write without improvement

Regarding that second point, I've noticed that while some med schools state that they consider all MCAT attempts, others only consider the highest or most recent or average MCAT score. If I were to get a similar score on a re-write, do you think those schools would still view that negatively or since their policy is to just look at highest/most recent/average they would not be concerned about my lack of performance progression across multiple MCAT attempts?

What schools say in their policy and what adcoms do behind the scenes may be different. Schools may take the highest/most recent etc score to boost their own averages, but adcoms behind closed doors may average all scores for evaluation purposes. I would not take the school's multiple MCAT policy seriously because we don't know what adcoms do in evaluating applications. Adcoms can see all MCAT scores and are free to interpret however they wish. This is why it's not recommended to retake a high score like 517 unless you are confident you can score very high (i.e. >522) and are willing to apply to primarily top schools. Going from 517 to >522 is a rare situation that multiple MCAT policies usually don't normally apply.

I suggest if you are planning to retake a 517, you should aim for at least a 522 on the retake. You don't want to damage your chances by getting a 517 again the second time. Your chances at US schools with 517 alone are already good. It becomes riskier when you also want to apply to Canadian schools because of their CARS policy, which is why breaking 520 (with ideally a 130+ in CARS) is essential on the retake. Canadian schools probably don't mind how many times you take the MCAT as long as your CARS score meets their threshold, but US schools do care. Going from 517 --> 520+ with 130 CARS opens doors in Canada without closing too many doors in the US.

 

[mscandy]

I retook a 95 percentile and got a 100 percentile the second time. I applied broadly this time but almost 0 luck with mid and low tier schools, except a couple that I had special connection with their missions.

OP, there's a trade-off that you will have to face. If you retake a 517, you need a score as good as, if not significantly better than, your old 517. Also, you will have much lower chance at mid and low tier schools (I wish I had known that months ago so I could save so much money and time by not applying to those schools.)