Need help and advice about returning to school

[okyeah]

Hey everyone. I want to make this as brief as possible. I'm a 28 year old single guy. I completed an undergrad degree in Human Physiology in 2018 and my cumulative gpa was 3.19 with 124 semester hours. My science gpa is below a 3.0, maybe around a 2.7 or 2.8.

Since I graduated I have been bouncing around a few jobs and settled on working in manufacturing. I actually have a career in the company I'm currently in, but I am just thinking of using this as a way to save a lot of money to go back to school to become a doctor. I have a LOT of real life experience and soft skills that most people don't have entering medical school.

I want opinions on if my previous undergrad work will just hamstring me completely on this mission. I was planning to redo 4 years and hopefully just ace everything. My previous gpa was caused by several major problems in my life (quite a bit out of my control). If I got close to a 4.0 for a complete redo of undergrad - would you guys think I'd have a strong application? I want the cold hard truth! I'm not really doing it for the money, I think I belong in medicine and career fulfillment is important to me.

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[NontradICUdoc]

My one big concern here is where you say that you “think“ you belong In medicine. What you are looking to potentially do is a very hard, arduous, expensive, and time consuming journey. One that, if you do it right, will take many years to complete. You need to ensure yourself that this is what you want to do. The best way is to see if you can spend time with several physicians to really understand what the Work is like. Get involved in healthcare in some way, shape, or form and really determine if it is what you want, not think this is what you want, but truly is what you want.

The last thing you want to do is to invest a lot of money but more importantly, time that you can never get back, for something that was just not what you wanted.

 

[petomed]

Undergrad coursework will have been 10+ years old by the time you apply and admissions committees do understand quite well the 'young and dumb' argument. With that being said, many medical schools draw a hard line at scoring a C in BCMP pre-requisites. You'd likely need to retake these to erase any BCMP C's, which is a moot point if your plan is to retake everything. So, the short answer to your first question is no, your undergrad coursework will not hamstring you completely.

I can't speak specifically on how a low BCMP GPA vs. cumulative GPA will impact you differently, but I know cGPA is pretty important. Below is a plot of where you currently sit and how scoring between the bands of 3.6 to 4.0 during post-bac GPA repair will improve your cGPA. I can provide the same plot for sGPA repair if you provide me with the current sGPA and corresponding number of credits.

Keep in mind that schools interpret retaking courses differently, as far as how they calculate the final grade in that course. For example, say you received a C in physics 1 the first time and then an A during the 10+ year later retake. Some schools may replace that C with the newest A while others will average the two grades into a B. The provided GPA projections are no use in such scenarios.

As for your question on application strength if re-doing your entire undergrad, I have no idea. My opinion based on what you've provided as information, is that this would be time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I would recommend re-taking any pre-req BCMP coursework you received a C+ or lower in and re-assessing where you stand at GPA at that point.

That is with the premise that you're absolutely sure about pursuing medicine. There should be no doubt in your mind about making such a change before beginning to invest money on the fork in the road.

 

[okyeah]

My one big concern here is where you say that you “think“ you belong In medicine. What you are looking to potentially do is a very hard, arduous, expensive, and time consuming journey. One that, if you do it right, will take many years to complete. You need to ensure yourself that this is what you want to do. The best way is to see if you can spend time with several physicians to really understand what the Work is like. Get involved in healthcare in some way, shape, or form and really determine if it is what you want, not think this is what you want, but truly is what you want.

The last thing you want to do is to invest a lot of money but more importantly, time that you can never get back, for something that was just not what you wanted.

I totally understand it. The entry to my manufacturing career was absolutely brutal. It kinda whipped me into shape for any type of work ethic issues I had before. Also it has completely opened my eyes up to reality of work life.
The way I see things is that, either way it won't matter as long as I return and achieve extremely high marks. If I don't get into MD I can do DO. If I don't feel like either of those I can fall back on Physicians assistant or Pharmacy. I might be wrong though, am I? I'll be honest, I hate the area I live (I definitely do not belong here) and want to use this plan as a safe way to escape this place.

 

[petomed]

I totally understand it. The entry to my manufacturing career was absolutely brutal. It kinda whipped me into shape for any type of worth ethic issues I had before. Also it has completely opened my eyes up to reality of work life.
The way I see things is that, either way it won't matter as long as I return and achieve extremely high marks. If I don't get into MD I can do DO. If I don't feel like either of those I can fall back on Physicians assistant or Pharmacy. I might be wrong though, am I? I'll be honest, I hate the area I live (I definitely do not belong here) and want to use this plan as a safe way to escape this place.

It sounds like, as you mentioned, you've had some life experiences. This is of course a good thing, however be careful about this decision. A very common and valid reason for pursuing medicine is that for better or for worse, you can't imagine being paid to do anything else unless medicine rejects you. Your bringing up medicine as a solution to moving out of the area you live, which you feel you don't belong--is not terribly compelling. I'm not saying that to ruffle your feathers at all. It's just that, you'll be working 60-100 hours for around eight years in a row before you can dictate your schedule again if you pursue medicine. You'll acquire a mountain of debt and sacrifice many memories and important relationships along the way. You should be drawn to medicine like gravity if considering making the change.

 

[okyeah]

Undergrad coursework will have been 10+ years old by the time you apply and admissions committees do understand quite well the 'young and dumb' argument. With that being said, many medical schools draw a hard line at scoring a C in BCMP pre-requisites. You'd likely need to retake these to erase any BCMP C's, which is a moot point if your plan is to retake everything. So, the short answer to your first question is no, your undergrad coursework will not hamstring you completely.

I can't speak specifically on how a low BCMP GPA vs. cumulative GPA will impact you differently, but I know cGPA is pretty important. Below is a plot of where you currently sit and how scoring between the bands of 3.6 to 4.0 during post-bac GPA repair will improve your cGPA. I can provide the same plot for sGPA repair if you provide me with the current sGPA and corresponding number of credits.

View attachment 347603

Keep in mind that schools interpret retaking courses differently, as far as how they calculate the final grade in that course. For example, say you received a C in physics 1 the first time and then an A during the 10+ year later retake. Some schools may replace that C with the newest A while others will average the two grades into a B. The provided GPA projections are no use in such scenarios.

As for your question on application strength if re-doing your entire undergrad, I have no idea. My opinion based on what you've provided as information, is that this would be time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I would recommend re-taking any pre-req BCMP coursework you received a C+ or lower in and re-assessing where you stand at GPA at that point.

That is with the premise that you're absolutely sure about pursuing medicine. There should be no doubt in your mind about making such a change before beginning to invest money on the fork in the road.

Wow thank you so much for this!! I'll be quite honest with you, I also failed two BCMP classes but had them retaken and "erased". I'm not sure they'll put that in my application if I returned. Also D+ was retaken in human anatomy to an A.

I calculated my SGPA and it's actually 3.18 with my independent study credits. Not sure if that would count though. So without those it is 3.07. And if you take away my 8 SH of community college physics it dips to 2.92. Hopefully I calculated that correctly.

I understand it is time consuming and possibly unnecessary. However, there are other factors involved. I don't really want to make manufacturing a life-long career. It would be hard to escape the area I'm at because I work in a union and that's not guaranteed elsewhere if I transferred. I also do not fit the mold of a guy working in manufacturing. So the culture I work in is very toxic. The only redeeming thing is a lot of overtime and very high pay for the area I live. So I can easily pay off all my debt and fund a trip back to undergrad.

I have no problem with the realities of being a doctor or any other medical career. I'm just a bit lost on the path I need to take because I don't have much input or mentorship from others.

 

[okyeah]

It sounds like, as you mentioned, you've had some life experiences. This is of course a good thing, however be careful about this decision. A very common and valid reason for pursuing medicine is that for better or for worse, you can't imagine being paid to do anything else unless medicine rejects you. Your bringing up medicine as a solution to moving out of the area you live, which you feel you don't belong--is not terribly compelling. I'm not saying that to ruffle your feathers at all. It's just that, you'll be working 60-100 hours for around eight years in a row before you can dictate your schedule again if you pursue medicine. You'll acquire a mountain of debt and sacrifice many memories and important relationships along the way. You should be drawn to medicine like gravity if considering making the change.

Oh no, I understand! Escaping my area is only one factor to be honest with you. I replied to your other post with some of the other factors. I have absolutely no problem working 60+ hours every week. I was getting paid $14 to work every single day for months at a point there. And I will be quite honest with you. I'm not sacrificing much. I don't have many connects tying me to this area anymore as my friends have moved. I understand that is a negative thing but I would prefer to view it as a positive where I have all this time on my hands. I have deeper reasons to be a doctor as well but I'm not sure if you want me to type out a personal story on here haha.

 

[petomed]

Oh no, I understand! Escaping my area is only one factor to be honest with you. I replied to your other post with some of the other factors. I have absolutely no problem working 60+ hours every week. I was getting paid $14 to work every single day for months at a point there. And I will be quite honest with you. I'm not sacrificing much. I don't have many connects tying me to this area anymore as my friends have moved. I understand that is a negative thing but I would prefer to view it as a positive where I have all this time on my hands. I have deeper reasons to be a doctor as well but I'm not sure if you want me to type out a personal story on here haha.

Understood. As for a recommended path to having a shot at receiving an acceptance:

1. Begin clinical volunteering immediately. Shadow your PCP, your friend's PCP, parents PCP, etc. Find a local hospital that allows you to volunteer, their ER is a great place to start because they are 24/7, so your M-F 9-5 manufacturing job can be worked without issue. If not the hospital, then find a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. Medical school admissions committees want to see that you're compassionate for the vulnerable because this is a big demographic you'll be working with during and after medical school. Aim for 500+ clinical volunteer hours and 80+ shadowing hours before applying to medical schools.
2. Get as many letters of recommendation (LOR's) as you can. These are crucial for your application. The volunteer coordinator at the hospital will be key if this is where you spend your time. High quality letter writers are key and you'll likely need a few letters from doctors. You'll specifically need one from a DO if you apply to DO schools.
3. Somewhere during (1), you will be 100% sure medicine is for you or you will be certain it is not and run the other way. Once 100% sure, this is when you begin GPA repair. You may take the DIY course-by-course as needed approach, or perform a special master's program (SMP) to accelerate the process.
4. Absolutely request for LOR's from the professors of all of your courses, past and present. You will likely need a letter from at least two science faculty when the time comes to apply.
5. Use the pre-health advisory committee at any institution for which this service is offered to you. They are responsible for centralizing all your LOR's and writing a composite recommendation themselves. Many medical schools prefer the committee letter process above segmented LOR's. Bare in mind that, while pre-health committees are supposed to be helpful in other facets, such as actually advising you on how to be successful--you may find them to be useless for anything other than centralizing your LORs and providing a LOR of their own. Completely depends on the university, just speaking from personal experience.
6. Study comprehensively for the MCAT once all your pre-req's are complete. Many students are paying substantial $$ for dedicated review classes and frankly, it works. You'll need a high MCAT and I'd recommend not being cheap here. Do a review course.

Toss in your life experiences, A's in your DIY post-bac or SMP, high Casper and SJT scores--and your in.

 

[okyeah]

Undergrad coursework will have been 10+ years old by the time you apply and admissions committees do understand quite well the 'young and dumb' argument. With that being said, many medical schools draw a hard line at scoring a C in BCMP pre-requisites. You'd likely need to retake these to erase any BCMP C's, which is a moot point if your plan is to retake everything. So, the short answer to your first question is no, your undergrad coursework will not hamstring you completely.

I can't speak specifically on how a low BCMP GPA vs. cumulative GPA will impact you differently, but I know cGPA is pretty important. Below is a plot of where you currently sit and how scoring between the bands of 3.6 to 4.0 during post-bac GPA repair will improve your cGPA. I can provide the same plot for sGPA repair if you provide me with the current sGPA and corresponding number of credits.

View attachment 347603

Keep in mind that schools interpret retaking courses differently, as far as how they calculate the final grade in that course. For example, say you received a C in physics 1 the first time and then an A during the 10+ year later retake. Some schools may replace that C with the newest A while others will average the two grades into a B. The provided GPA projections are no use in such scenarios.

As for your question on application strength if re-doing your entire undergrad, I have no idea. My opinion based on what you've provided as information, is that this would be time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I would recommend re-taking any pre-req BCMP coursework you received a C+ or lower in and re-assessing where you stand at GPA at that point.

That is with the premise that you're absolutely sure about pursuing medicine. There should be no doubt in your mind about making such a change before beginning to invest money on the fork in the road.

Sorry I redid my sGPA calculation. I removed all my human phys elective classes. With 39 SH I have a 2.95 sGPA with community college physics. I threw my human anatomy in there as well.

 

[okyeah]

Understood. As for a recommended path to having a shot at receiving an acceptance:

1. Begin clinical volunteering immediately. Shadow your PCP, your friend's PCP, parents PCP, etc. Find a local hospital that allows you to volunteer, their ER is a great place to start because they are 24/7, so your M-F 9-5 manufacturing job can be worked without issue. If not the hospital, then find a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. Medical school admissions committees want to see that you're compassionate for the vulnerable because this is a big demographic you'll be working with during and after medical school. Aim for 500+ clinical volunteer hours and 80+ shadowing hours before applying to medical schools.
2. Get as many letters of recommendation (LOR's) as you can. These are crucial for your application. The volunteer coordinator at the hospital will be key if this is where you spend your time. High quality letter writers are key and you'll likely need a few letters from doctors. You'll specifically need one from a DO if you apply to DO schools.
3. Somewhere during (1), you will be 100% sure medicine is for you or you will be certain it is not and run the other way. Once 100% sure, this is when you begin GPA repair. You may take the DIY course-by-course as needed approach, or perform a special master's program (SMP) to accelerate the process.
4. Absolutely request for LOR's from the professors of all of your courses, past and present. You will likely need a letter from at least two science faculty when the time comes to apply.
5. Use the pre-health advisory committee at any institution for which this service is offered to you. They are responsible for centralizing all your LOR's and writing a composite recommendation themselves. Many medical schools prefer the committee letter process above segmented LOR's. Bare in mind that, while pre-health committees are supposed to be helpful in other facets, such as actually advising you on how to be successful--you may find them to be useless for anything other than centralizing your LORs and providing a LOR of their own. Completely depends on the university, just speaking from personal experience.
6. Study comprehensively for the MCAT once all your pre-req's are complete. Many students are paying substantial $$ for dedicated review classes and frankly, it works. You'll need a high MCAT and I'd recommend not being cheap here. Do a review course.

Toss in your life experiences, A's in your DIY post-bac or SMP, high Casper and SJT scores--and your in.

This is so incredibly helpful I want to thank you so much for taking the time to write it out. I have one question though. You don't think I should redo my undergrad? I'm just so nervous about doing all of this because a lot of it will require faith. Like the letters of rec. My old profs will definitely not remember me. With a redo of undergrad I can just establish myself and build a reputation which I absolutely do not have right now. The other issue is that I just don't think I could jump into a masters at all since leaving undergrad. Intellectually. I feel like I need to build momentum. Sure, it may cost money and a little extra time but undergrad would give it a lot of structure for me to do what is right and also alternative career paths. But I may be wrong about this, I'm not exactly sure. Also SMPs cost a lot right? Especially out of state

 

[petomed]

This is so incredibly helpful I want to thank you so much for taking the time to write it out. I have one question though. You don't think I should redo my undergrad? I'm just so nervous about doing all of this because a lot of it will require faith. Like the letters of rec. My old profs will definitely not remember me. With a redo of undergrad I can just establish myself and build a reputation which I absolutely do not have right now. The other issue is that I just don't think I could jump into a masters at all since leaving undergrad. Intellectually. I feel like I need to build momentum. Sure, it may cost money and a little extra time but undergrad would give it a lot of structure for me to do what is right and also alternative career paths. But I may be wrong about this, I'm not exactly sure. Also SMPs cost a lot right? Especially out of state

Valid concerns. I don't believe you need to go so far as to repeat undergrad for more solidified LOR structure, nor for the ability to build faith in your academic capabilities. You just need to be mindful and proactive moving forward.

If you're concerned about your academic capabilities, as I was myself--then I'd recommend dipping your toe in the pond first. Take the easiest of the courses you need to retake first while working full-time or part-time. Then complete that sequence. For me, this was biology. This will either be successful and boost your confidence moving forward or it will make clear the viability of medical school as the new direction.

As for LOR's, just ask for them from the professors of all the courses you take moving forward. You'll need to put in effort to develop rapport throughout each semester, but that's just how things are.

Yes, SMP's are expensive. But I believe the justification is two-fold. (1) many of those programs offer acceptance to their medical school if you meet a certain GPA threshold. (2) one year of physician salary is > 200k. Spend three years preparing to apply to medical school and you've lost 3*200 = 600k in future earnings.

There are likely other pre-req type programs that cram all your coursework into three semesters. I'm just not familiar with them.

If you believe a second B.S. degree will provide for you a good fallback career path and/or do believe you need it for the structure and LORs, then go for it. Just be sure you need it. I can't tell you up or down with certainty from where I stand.

 

[okyeah]

Valid concerns. I don't believe you need to go so far as to repeat undergrad for more solidified LOR structure, nor for the ability to build faith in your academic capabilities. You just need to be mindful and proactive moving forward.

If you're concerned about your academic capabilities, as I was myself--then I'd recommend dipping your toe in the pond first. Take the easiest of the courses you need to retake first while working full-time or part-time. Then complete that sequence. For me, this was biology. This will either be successful and boost your confidence moving forward or it will make clear the viability of medical school as the new direction.

As for LOR's, just ask for them from the professors of all the courses you take moving forward. You'll need to put in effort to develop rapport throughout each semester, but that's just how things are.

Yes, SMP's are expensive. But I believe the justification is two-fold. (1) many of those programs offer acceptance to their medical school if you meet a certain GPA threshold. (2) one year of physician salary is > 200k. Spend three years preparing to apply to medical school and you've lost 3*200 = 600k in future earnings.

There are likely other pre-req type programs that cram all your coursework into three semesters. I'm just not familiar with them.

If you believe a second B.S. degree will provide for you a good fallback career path and/or do believe you need it for the structure and LORs, then go for it. Just be sure you need it. I can't tell you up or down with certainty from where I stand.

Another idea that came up was just doing the Texas fresh start program to erase all my previous grades. Of course I’d be stuck in Texas until the end of med school, however I don’t think that would be a problem.

 

[BC_89]

Another idea that came up was just doing the Texas fresh start program to erase all my previous grades. Of course I’d be stuck in Texas until the end of med school, however I don’t think that would be a problem.

Concerning the Academic Fresh Start Program -

Based on your timeline (graduated in 2018), I can only presume you started your undergraduate coursework ~ 2014. To be eligible for this program, you'd first need to be a resident of Texas for 12 consecutive months before being able to apply to certain institutions (public) in said state. With that, the moment you use it for school, it will indeed clear any past grades from your academic record up to 10 years prior from the semester you start. If your plan is to indeed start a new slate (starting undergrad all over again), to have its full effect you'd need to wait until 2028 to invoke the Fresh Start Program.

So with that, you'd need to consider the additional timeline on how to best use this plan:

1) Wait an additional 2 - 3 years while establishing residency in Texas
2) Earn a 4-year bachelors once again (old degree no longer would count for Medical School in TX) and then upon graduation in 2018, Implement the Academic Fresh Start Program at another institute to erase all courses from previous degree (10 years prior from implementation of program). Most simply take 1 class at a different institute of their choosing to make this happen.

With this, it'll be ~ 7 more years (if you started right now) to "potentially" start your 4 more years of medical school plus additional years of residency. You'll be paying for two 4-year degrees plus medical school. This is an objective outline, and I am by no means trying to dissuade you from wanting to be a physician. This will indeed take some time, but it has been done by some of our users and thus far they have fared rather well while finishing up med school ---> @esob

Time and money is what it'll take, but if you are driven, I can see two things: You'll realize along this path that being a physician is truly what you want, or you end up with a degree that can place you toward another avenue (Physician Assistant, Physical Therapist, Pharmacist (saturated), so on and so forth).

 

[okyeah]

Concerning the Academic Fresh Start Program -

Based on your timeline (graduated in 2018), I can only presume you started your undergraduate coursework ~ 2014. To be eligible for this program, you'd first need to be a resident of Texas for 12 consecutive months before being able to apply to certain institutions (public) in said state. With that, the moment you use it for school, it will indeed clear any past grades from your academic record up to 10 years prior from the semester you start. If your plan is to indeed start a new slate (starting undergrad all over again), to have its full effect you'd need to wait until 2024 to start school once again.

So with that, you'd need to consider the additional timeline on how to best use this plan:

1) Wait an additional 2 - 3 years while establishing residency in Texas
2) Implement the Academic Fresh Start and earn a 4-year bachelors once again (old degree no longer would count for Medical School in TX)

With this, it'll be ~ 7 more years (if you started right now) to "potentially" start your 4 more years of medical school plus additional years of residency. You'll be paying for two 4-year degrees plus medical school. This is an objective outline, and I am by no means trying to dissuade you from wanting to be a physician. This will indeed take some time, but it has been done by some of our users and thus far they have fared rather well while finishing up med school ---> @esob

Time and money is what it'll take, but if you are driven, I can see two things: You'll realize along this path that being a physician is truly what you want, or you end up with a degree that can place you toward another avenue (Physician Assistant, Physical Therapist, Pharmacist (saturated), so on and so forth).

Yes! Actually I planned it out so I could work at my job in the Midwest until July 2024 and move to Texas immediately and live there 1 year off savings + find some low level clinical scribe work/volunteer if possible. Then I can start undergrad in 2025 and possibly just send med school applications junior year 2028 after invoking the Fresh Start Act.
Money isn’t an issue at all to be honest. Especially if I can work until 2024.

Honestly, there is no downside to this that I can see right now because I think I could still apply out of Texas for med school, they would just see my old grades as well.

 

[okyeah]

Concerning the Academic Fresh Start Program -

Based on your timeline (graduated in 2018), I can only presume you started your undergraduate coursework ~ 2014. To be eligible for this program, you'd first need to be a resident of Texas for 12 consecutive months before being able to apply to certain institutions (public) in said state. With that, the moment you use it for school, it will indeed clear any past grades from your academic record up to 10 years prior from the semester you start. If your plan is to indeed start a new slate (starting undergrad all over again), to have its full effect you'd need to wait until 2024 to start school once again.

So with that, you'd need to consider the additional timeline on how to best use this plan:

1) Wait an additional 2 - 3 years while establishing residency in Texas
2) Implement the Academic Fresh Start and earn a 4-year bachelors once again (old degree no longer would count for Medical School in TX)

With this, it'll be ~ 7 more years (if you started right now) to "potentially" start your 4 more years of medical school plus additional years of residency. You'll be paying for two 4-year degrees plus medical school. This is an objective outline, and I am by no means trying to dissuade you from wanting to be a physician. This will indeed take some time, but it has been done by some of our users and thus far they have fared rather well while finishing up med school ---> @esob

Time and money is what it'll take, but if you are driven, I can see two things: You'll realize along this path that being a physician is truly what you want, or you end up with a degree that can place you toward another avenue (Physician Assistant, Physical Therapist, Pharmacist (saturated), so on and so forth).

Also - correct me if I’m wrong but, I would have to wait until 2028 to “invoke” the Fresh Start Act by taking 1 super easy class at a community college in order to activate it? My previous undergrad was 2012-2018. I read that you need to play a little trickery because the moment you invoke it - it just erases all 10 year old grades, but in order to invoke it you must start school and take at least 1 class at that school.

 

[petomed]

Also - correct me if I’m wrong but, I would have to wait until 2028 to “invoke” the Fresh Start Act by taking 1 super easy class at a community college in order to activate it? My previous undergrad was 2012-2018. I read that you need to play a little trickery because the moment you invoke it - it just erases all 10 year old grades, but in order to invoke it you must start school and take at least 1 class at that school.

I'd never heard of this before. Definitely pursue if the time and upfront money aren't an issue. It'll give you the fresh start you're looking for both academically and personally. And attending medical school in Texas means paying pennies on the dollar compared to most other places in the country.

Just realize that you're now talking about 7 years before beginning medical school + 4 years of medical school + around 4 years of residency after medical school, which sums to 15 years before practicing independently at age 43. Everyone will tell you medicine is for the long haul, so in some ways this lengthier timeline is no big deal if you truly enjoy the field. Others might argue that kind of timeline is crazy.

My opinion is that as long as you're happy, your family is happy, and you truly enjoy what you're doing--you're way better off than the person whose rich and miserable.

 

[okyeah]

I'd never heard of this before. Definitely pursue if the time and upfront money aren't an issue. It'll give you the fresh start you're looking for both academically and personally. And attending medical school in Texas means paying pennies on the dollar compared to most other places in the country.

Just realize that you're now talking about 7 years before beginning medical school + 4 years of medical school + around 4 years of residency after medical school, which sums to 15 years before practicing independently at age 43. Everyone will tell you medicine is for the long haul, so in some ways this lengthier timeline is no big deal if you truly enjoy the field. Others might argue that kind of timeline is crazy.

My opinion is that as long as you're happy, your family is happy, and you truly enjoy what you're doing--you're way better off than the person whose rich and miserable.

I did the math quickly and becoming a doctor, just from a financial perspective, is still worth it as the best I could earn would be low 6 figures at my current career and that’s after working long hours of overtime. I guess that really seals the deal.

Edit: not that money is a key factor at all in this decision in the first place though.

 

[petomed]

I did the math quickly and becoming a doctor, just from a financial perspective, is still worth it as the best I could earn would be low 6 figures at my current career and that’s after working long hours of overtime. I guess that really seals the deal.

Edit: not that money is a key factor at all in this decision in the first place though.

True, for Texas. Just know that accumulating 500k+ in debt is not unusual today if fully funding yourself through medical school with loans. Every situation is different, especially in Texas. But keep this in mind if for whatever reason you decide not to pursue a cheap school.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Yes! Actually I planned it out so I could work at my job in the Midwest until July 2024 and move to Texas immediately and live there 1 year off savings + find some low level clinical scribe work/volunteer if possible. Then I can start undergrad in 2025 and possibly just send med school applications junior year 2028 after invoking the Fresh Start Act.
Money isn’t an issue at all to be honest. Especially if I can work until 2024.

Honestly, there is no downside to this that I can see right now because I think I could still apply out of Texas for med school, they would just see my old grades as well.

I don't think your plan of moving to Texas at some unspecified point many years in the future simply for its academic fresh start opportunity makes any sense. There is a far more efficient route to medical school available to you.

You have all your prerequisites for medical school through your bachelor's degree, correct? If this is the case, forget about "redoing" your entire undergraduate degree. Medical schools do not allow for grade replacement, and retaking a bunch of classes that you already passed (albeit with a low grade) isn't going to impress anyone. You need to be focusing on excelling in new material that proves to medical schools that you can handle their rigorous academics.

I think you should be contacting SMP admissions (special master's programs) right now to see if you are competitive for them with your current GPAs. These are 1 or 2 year graduate programs that allow you to prove your fitness for medical school. Many SMPs have a uGPA cutoff at 3.0, but others on this forum have had success by asking for exceptions to the GPA cutoffs. Even if the GPA cutoff is firm, you are just shy of a 3.0. A few postbac classes at a 4.0 should bump your GPA over this line, and then you will be more competitive for SMPs.

There are SMPs that allow you to take the first year of medical school classes alongside medical students, and these function as a medical school audition. These types of programs are appropriate for people with low uGPAs so long as they've addressed the academic deficiencies that got them in trouble in the first place. Many SMPs offer guaranteed interviews or linkages to medical schools. Even if you don't end up in one of the linked medical schools, an excellent showing in an SMP makes you competitive (from a GPA standpoint) for many MD and DO programs. There are lots of stories on this forum alone of people who have had sub 3.0 uGPAs, gotten 3.8+ in their SMPs + strong MCAT and have turned that around into one or many MD/DO acceptances.

You will, of course, still need extremely strong ECs (shadowing, clinical work, community service, leadership, possibly research) and stellar MCAT scores, but that's true for all applicants.

 

[okyeah]

I don't think your plan of moving to Texas at some unspecified point many years in the future simply for its academic fresh start opportunity makes any sense. There is a far more efficient route to medical school available to you.

You have all your prerequisites for medical school through your bachelor's degree, correct? If this is the case, forget about "redoing" your entire undergraduate degree. Medical schools do not allow for grade replacement, and retaking a bunch of classes that you already passed (albeit with a low grade) isn't going to impress anyone. You need to be focusing on excelling in new material that proves to medical schools that you can handle their rigorous academics.

I think you should be contacting SMP admissions (special master's programs) right now to see if you are competitive for them with your current GPAs. These are 1 or 2 year graduate programs that allow you to prove your fitness for medical school. Many SMPs have a uGPA cutoff at 3.0, but others on this forum have had success by asking for exceptions to the GPA cutoffs. Even if the GPA cutoff is firm, you are just shy of a 3.0. A few postbac classes at a 4.0 should bump your GPA over this line, and then you will be more competitive for SMPs.

There are SMPs that allow you to take the first year of medical school classes alongside medical students, and these function as a medical school audition. These types of programs are appropriate for people with low uGPAs so long as they've addressed the academic deficiencies that got them in trouble in the first place. Many SMPs offer guaranteed interviews or linkages to medical schools. Even if you don't end up in one of the linked medical schools, an excellent showing in an SMP makes you competitive (from a GPA standpoint) for many MD and DO programs. There are lots of stories on this forum alone of people who have had sub 3.0 uGPAs, gotten 3.8+ in their SMPs + strong MCAT and have turned that around into one or many MD/DO acceptances.

You will, of course, still need extremely strong ECs (shadowing, clinical work, community service, leadership, possibly research) and stellar MCAT scores, but that's true for all applicants.

I definitely understand where you’re coming from regarding retaking undergrad. However, I think being so non traditional and having a career already will give me a leg up on everyone. The retaking of undergrad would mostly just be for my own safety so that I could ease back into academia. But it would be more of an icing on the cake of my application. Also I would plan to do my absolute best there so I believe that if I truly got a 4.0 or 3.9 on an undergrad retake it would be impressive either way. The erasing of old grades really does matter in Texas. So retaking those prerequisites would actually count for something in my application as it is it’s own application system in Texas.

Also taking more time allows me to become a part time CNA and also do volunteering until 2024 (in addition to working full time).

I seriously do not want to be in a position where I’ve wasted money on a useless masters or even that I would have to stay in the area I live for medical school. Those are a big deal to me.

Also SMP route and fixing up my gpa to get into an SMP would shave off maybe ~3 years from the time I become a practicing doctor.

 

[petomed]

I don't think your plan of moving to Texas at some unspecified point many years in the future simply for its academic fresh start opportunity makes any sense. There is a far more efficient route to medical school available to you.

You have all your prerequisites for medical school through your bachelor's degree, correct? If this is the case, forget about "redoing" your entire undergraduate degree. Medical schools do not allow for grade replacement, and retaking a bunch of classes that you already passed (albeit with a low grade) isn't going to impress anyone. You need to be focusing on excelling in new material that proves to medical schools that you can handle their rigorous academics.

I think you should be contacting SMP admissions (special master's programs) right now to see if you are competitive for them with your current GPAs. These are 1 or 2 year graduate programs that allow you to prove your fitness for medical school. Many SMPs have a uGPA cutoff at 3.0, but others on this forum have had success by asking for exceptions to the GPA cutoffs. Even if the GPA cutoff is firm, you are just shy of a 3.0. A few postbac classes at a 4.0 should bump your GPA over this line, and then you will be more competitive for SMPs.

There are SMPs that allow you to take the first year of medical school classes alongside medical students, and these function as a medical school audition. These types of programs are appropriate for people with low uGPAs so long as they've addressed the academic deficiencies that got them in trouble in the first place. Many SMPs offer guaranteed interviews or linkages to medical schools. Even if you don't end up in one of the linked medical schools, an excellent showing in an SMP makes you competitive (from a GPA standpoint) for many MD and DO programs. There are lots of stories on this forum alone of people who have had sub 3.0 uGPAs, gotten 3.8+ in their SMPs + strong MCAT and have turned that around into one or many MD/DO acceptances.

You will, of course, still need extremely strong ECs (shadowing, clinical work, community service, leadership, possibly research) and stellar MCAT scores, but that's true for all applicants.

Disclaimer: this list is incomplete:

CHSUCOM
DMUCOM
BCOM
CCOM-Midwestern
ICOM
LECOM “Applicants must repeat prerequisite courses in which the grade earned is a C- or lower.”
LUCOM
LMUCOM
MSUCOM
MUCOM
VCOM
KCUCOM
UIWSOM
Noorda COM
Ohio COM
PNUCOM
TouroCOM

I began to look into which DO schools require a C or better and there's no point in going through them all, as this appears to be the rule as oppose to the exception. This may be less true for MD schools if the same search is performed, I can't comment on that. I included LECOM's verbiage to make it clear that at least one DO school allows for the sub C grade to be replaced or averaged. This is either true for the other schools too, or an irreplaceable C in a single very old pre-req means you will be excluding many DO schools from your application.

Definitely confirm with the individual schools, as website information does become outdated more often than you might think.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I definitely understand where you’re coming from regarding retaking undergrad. However, I think being so non traditional and having a career already will give me a leg up on everyone. The retaking of undergrad would mostly just be for my own safety so that I could ease back into academia. But it would be more of an icing on the cake of my application. Also I would plan to do my absolute best there so I believe that if I truly got a 4.0 or 3.9 on an undergrad retake it would be impressive either way. The erasing of old grades really does matter in Texas. So retaking those prerequisites would actually count for something in my application as it is it’s own application system in Texas.

Also taking more time allows me to become a part time CNA and also do volunteering until 2024 (in addition to working full time).

I seriously do not want to be in a position where I’ve wasted money on a useless masters or even that I would have to stay in the area I live for medical school. Those are a big deal to me.

Also SMP route and fixing up my gpa to get into an SMP would shave off maybe ~3 years from the time I become a practicing doctor.

I am more non-traditional than you (several years older when I applied) and worked for longer in an unrelated industry (tech) before switching to medicine. I am advising you from this perspective, i.e., I am someone who has actually done what you're trying to do and successfully gained admission to a USMD program.

Retaking your entire undergrad will not- I repeat, WILL NOT - accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish. It is not icing on the cake. It will be seen, at best, as a weird decision. At worst, you will look like you have no idea what you're doing or can't decide on a proper path - like you're someone who makes uninformed or foolish choices. Adcoms will expect someone like you to prove their worthiness for medical school through a postbac of new material or an SMP. They do not want to see you retake a bunch of classes you've already taken once.

This means you need to excel in brand new coursework. Nobody is going to be impressed that you managed to, for example, get an A in Bio II after getting a C+ in it the first time. The bare minimum expectation is a 4.0, because, duh, you already saw the material once. Anything less than an A is unacceptable, and As in retaken coursework are not impressive like you seem to think they will be.

The baseline expectation of a 4.0 on all retakes is why I do not recommend anyone retake prerequisites that they passed on the first go around. If you need "safety" to ease back into academia, then take brand new higher-level science courses at a local 4-year and get As in those. Start with one class and see how you do. If you don't want to commit to formal SMP, you can keep taking several consecutive semesters of high-level science courses at the same university. That is often enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, and people have had success gaining admission to DO schools through that route (called a "DIY postbac").

You are also acting like getting into a Texas medical school after academic reinvention is a sure thing; it is not. Texas is an extremely competitive system and even if you end up in that state, you should be applying to US MD/DO all over the US given your history. Many, many Texans are rejected from Texas medical schools every year. Wasting several years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars repeating your undergraduate degree in Texas is far more costly than a failed SMP/postbac.

Regarding "delaying" medical school by three years: 3 years of lost physician salary is an enormous opportunity cost. Every year you delay you are sacrificing hundreds of thousands of dollars in earnings potential. Whether or not you care about that is your call, I guess, but it's not wise from my perspective. Lost future earnings is something the vast majority of us nontraditionals choose to minimize.

 

[okyeah]

I am more non-traditional than you (several years older when I applied) and worked for longer in an unrelated industry (tech) before switching to medicine. I am advising you from this perspective, i.e., I am someone who has actually done what you're trying to do and successfully gained admission to a USMD program.

Retaking your entire undergrad will not- I repeat, WILL NOT - accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish. It is not icing on the cake. It will be seen, at best, as a weird decision. At worst, you will look like you have no idea what you're doing or can't decide on a proper path - like you're someone who makes uninformed or foolish choices. Adcoms will expect someone like you to prove their worthiness for medical school through a postbac of new material or an SMP. They do not want to see you retake a bunch of classes you've already taken once.

This means you need to excel in brand new coursework. Nobody is going to be impressed that you managed to, for example, get an A in Bio II after getting a C+ in it the first time. The bare minimum expectation is a 4.0, because, duh, you already saw the material once. Anything less than an A is unacceptable, and As in retaken coursework are not impressive like you seem to think they will be.

The baseline expectation of a 4.0 on all retakes is why I do not recommend anyone retake prerequisites that they passed on the first go around. If you need "safety" to ease back into academia, then take brand new higher-level science courses at a local 4-year and get As in those. Start with one class and see how you do. If you don't want to commit to formal SMP, you can keep taking several consecutive semesters of high-level science courses at the same university. That is often enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, and people have had success gaining admission to DO schools through that route (called a "DIY postbac").

You are also acting like getting into a Texas medical school after academic reinvention is a sure thing; it is not. Texas is an extremely competitive system and even if you end up in that state, you should be applying to US MD/DO all over the US given your history. Many, many Texans are rejected from Texas medical schools every year. Wasting several years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars repeating your undergraduate degree in Texas is far more costly than a failed SMP/postbac.

Regarding "delaying" medical school by three years: 3 years of lost physician salary is an enormous opportunity cost. Every year you delay you are sacrificing hundreds of thousands of dollars in earnings potential. Whether or not you care about that is your call, I guess, but it's not wise from my perspective. Lost future earnings is something the vast majority of us nontraditionals choose to minimize.

I definitely value your perspective. My friend who is finishing an MDPHD said that a masters is worth pursuing as well versus an undergrad retake. Now you have to consider that life is messy. Yes it is a possibly stupid decision to redo undergrad. However it is actually the safer decision in my life. If I can get up to 4000+ clinical hours before retaking undergrad that counts for a lot. In my view, people are looking at the bigger picture when it comes to non trads. They want to make sure someone is fully committed and has experience. I don’t think they care as much about a strict timeline of events. And if things really do not work with an undergrad retake, I could just get the masters after that as well anyways. Of course this would all be huge opportunity cost. But personally none of that matters to me. I don’t care about money at all. I care about my values and being around people that care about the same things I do.

Now you said I can just keep taking high level courses continuously but my friend said a guy he knew that was a lab manager took this route and slowly took science courses, with As I assume, and basically wasted a ton of time and money because he got rejected from everywhere.

I just have a hard time believing that if someone got a 4.0 in undergrad, had a successful career, had ~4000 clinical hours, volunteer and community work, and all other checkboxes were filled that they would reject an applicant like that. Also I know I could do well in an interview and be a likeable person. That would essentially mean it would be some personal problem someone in that process would have with me or that nothing I do would matter at all to anyone which makes someone question what do these people really value at all?

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I definitely value your perspective. My friend who is finishing an MDPHD said that a masters is worth pursuing as well versus an undergrad retake. Now you have to consider that life is messy. Yes it is a possibly stupid decision to redo undergrad. However it is actually the safer decision in my life. If I can get up to 4000+ clinical hours before retaking undergrad that counts for a lot. In my view, people are looking at the bigger picture when it comes to non trads. They want to make sure someone is fully committed and has experience. I don’t think they care as much about a strict timeline of events. And if things really do not work with an undergrad retake, I could just get the masters after that as well anyways. Of course this would all be huge opportunity cost. But personally none of that matters to me. I don’t care about money at all. I care about my values and being around people that care about the same things I do.

Now you said I can just keep taking high level courses continuously but my friend said a guy he knew that was a lab manager took this route and slowly took science courses, with As I assume, and basically wasted a ton of time and money because he got rejected from everywhere.

I just have a hard time believing that if someone got a 4.0 in undergrad, had a successful career, had ~4000 clinical hours, volunteer and community work, and all other checkboxes were filled that they would reject an applicant like that. Also I know I could do well in an interview and be a likeable person. That would essentially mean it would be some personal problem someone in that process would have with me or that nothing I do would matter at all to anyone which makes someone question what do these people really value at all?

Well, it sounds like you've got it all figured out. Good luck.

 

[okyeah]

Well, it sounds like you've got it all figured out. Good luck.

I definitely do not! And please don’t take what I’m saying the wrong way. I need to hear from people to figure out what I need to do. I don’t mean to be argumentative or anything. I have a hard time ironing out the right path I need to take in my head.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I definitely do not! And please don’t take what I’m saying the wrong way. I need to hear from people to figure out what I need to do. I don’t mean to be argumentative or anything. I have a hard time ironing out the right path I need to take in my head.

You can choose to take my advice or not. I don't care. But what you are proposing is one of the most convoluted, expensive, time-consuming pathways to medical school I could possibly imagine and, as such, I cannot really comment on how you might make that work. I simply have never heard of anyone doing what you're proposing to do. I might suggest Texas fresh start as a literal hail Mary to a 35 year old ten years out of school with a 1.3 uGPA that can't die happy until they've attempted a medical school application. Beyond that, I recommend DIY postbac or SMP all the way because these are the tried-and-true pathways for nontrads.

IF you move to Texas and IF you can manage to get a 4.0 in all your retaken classes after waiting a few years for academic fresh start and IF you can manage to get excellent ECs and IF you can manage to earn a stellar MCAT score at the end of it all (far and away the most difficult puzzle piece) and IF you can write amazing essays then yes, you will be competitive for exactly 12 of the ~200 medical schools in the US. Your uGPA will still render you uncompetitive for DO and non-TX MD without other postbac work. Hopefully you've got a solid plan B for your life lined up if you go this route.

I post on this forum as a way to give back to this community. I started lurking 10 years ago this year as a middle manager dreaming of medicine who hated my life and my job, and I relied heavily on the advice from the users and adcoms that frequented this forum. I had no physician relatives or premed advisor. A decade later, I am halfway through medical school at a good program having had my pick of 5 medical schools, all thanks to the advice I received here over the years. I credit nearly 100% of my success to SDN. Because I enjoy passing it on, I am happy to provide guidance and advice to any nontraditional on this forum to the extent I am able.

However, it's not a productive use of my time to get in a back-and-forth with you about things I cannot discuss, i.e., your anecdotes ("MDPHD said this", "A guy I knew did that"), what you imagine Texas adcoms will value in a theoretical application you submit five years from now, and what you can personally afford or not afford. At some point, you're just going to make your decision and it doesn't really matter to me what that decision is. I've given you my advice, and what you do with it from there is up to you.

 

[okyeah]

You can choose to take my advice or not. I don't care. But what you are proposing is one of the most convoluted, expensive, time-consuming pathways to medical school I could possibly imagine and, as such, I cannot really comment on how you might make that work. I simply have never heard of anyone doing what you're proposing to do. I might suggest Texas fresh start as a literal hail Mary to a 35 year old ten years out of school with a 1.3 uGPA that can't die happy until they've attempted a medical school application. Beyond that, I recommend DIY postbac or SMP all the way because these are the tried-and-true pathways for nontrads.

IF you move to Texas and IF you can manage to get a 4.0 in all your retaken classes after waiting a few years for academic fresh start and IF you can manage to get excellent ECs and IF you can manage to earn a stellar MCAT score at the end of it all (far and away the most difficult puzzle piece) and IF you can write amazing essays then yes, you will be competitive for exactly 12 of the ~200 medical schools in the US. Your uGPA will still render you uncompetitive for DO and non-TX MD without other postbac work. Hopefully you've got a solid plan B for your life lined up if you go this route.

I post on this forum as a way to give back to this community. I started lurking 10 years ago this year as a middle manager dreaming of medicine who hated my life and my job, and I relied heavily on the advice from the users and adcoms that frequented this forum. I had no physician relatives or premed advisor. A decade later, I am halfway through medical school at a good program having had my pick of 5 medical schools, all thanks to the advice I received here over the years. I credit nearly 100% of my success to SDN. Because I enjoy passing it on, I am happy to provide guidance and advice to any nontraditional on this forum to the extent I am able.

However, it's not a productive use of my time to get in a back-and-forth with you about things I cannot discuss, i.e., your anecdotes ("MDPHD said this", "A guy I knew did that"), what you imagine Texas adcoms will value in a theoretical application you submit five years from now, and what you can personally afford or not afford. At some point, you're just going to make your decision and it doesn't really matter to me what that decision is. I've given you my advice, and what you do with it from there is up to you.

Oh okay! Thanks!

I think I rubbed you the wrong way or something so sorry about that.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Oh okay! Thanks!

I think I rubbed you the wrong way or something so sorry about that.

You're fine. I try to be as direct as I can, so when I've said everything I can say and/or it's time for me to tap out of an unproductive conversation, I state that and then do so. It is nothing personal. Should you have any further questions about being a nontraditional premed, you're in the right place to ask.

 

[okyeah]

You're fine. I try to be as direct as I can, so when I've said everything I can say and/or it's time for me to tap out of an unproductive conversation, I state that and then do so. It is nothing personal. Should you have any further questions about being a nontraditional premed, you're in the right place to ask.

What if I have absolutely no clinical hrs, leadership, and minimal volunteer work right now? Wouldn’t I have to address that situation in addition to completing the SMP

 

[BC_89]

Also - correct me if I’m wrong but, I would have to wait until 2028 to “invoke” the Fresh Start Act by taking 1 super easy class at a community college in order to activate it?

Correct -

If you graduated and the timeline falls 10 years from your LAST college credit course from your previous degree, you’ll need to take at least 1 credit at another institution to invoke it (typically a community college as you stated).

My only other subjective thought is to strongly consider time. Time means more than money: it’s hobbies, marriage, vacations, and self-preserve fortitude. I mention this because you entertained the idea of other career paths and not just MD/DO route. To note, I’m not a med student, but a non-trad student (30’s) applying for pharmacy residency programs throughout the country.

As a medically retired veteran, I am essentially being paid to be a student (pension, health coverage, housing payment deposits, tuition / book / professional exam coverage). I’m intrigued with being a drug expert, but it doesn’t trump my desire to fish/hunt and raise a family (wife with two kids) which I was able to do.

Straight A’s is a strong assumption, you have good options with a quicker avenue. To that, the journey is in your court.

Best of wishes.

 

[deleted367183]

Listen to JanetSnakehole! I also have a nontrad path (matriculated at 37) and agree with what she is saying.

 

[Dral]

I'll second that a whole 2nd undergrad degree doesn't make the most sense.

I get the idea of wanting to get your feet wet again, but it won't take a whole undergrad degree to do that. Go ahead and take a semester or two of courses if you feel that you want to see how you do in academia again.

I do agree with an SMP being a good course of action. They are high risk, but you aren't in the best position with your GPA.

You could have an ace up your sleeve such as being an inventor of something a little mindblowing for instance. Those types always get a decent wow from myself and my colleagues when we are interviewing for residency spots for instance. In that case, your non-traditional-ness could be an asset. Schools also seem to go for military non-trads a lot. However, in my estimation, while they are open to the rest of us non-trads and our experiences, it's not like they're exactly swooning over us.

The first two years of med school are super rigorous. An SMP would prove you can handle that rigor. A post-bacc could help, but with your current GPA, I think it may be too little too late. I'd think it's still a consideration though. To be honest, I don't know enough about an option where someone would do a post-bacc (a place to get your feet wet again), then move on to SMP if you didn't get in with your post-bacc work. Maybe someone else can chime in on the feasibility of that path.

I'm not going to say a repeat undergrad won't work, but it seems a bit excessive and unnecessary for you. Look into the post-bacc and SMP routes more before you commit to anything else.

 

[okyeah]

No.

For any institute that participates in the Fresh Start Program, the moment you invoke it for any semester/term/college credit course, it will erase all college credit courses from that point to 10 years prior. Not all institutes do it (private schools), and you certainly don’t need to take just one course at a community college to start it.

My only other subjective thought is to strongly consider time. Time means more than money: it’s hobbies, marriage, vacations, and self-preserve fortitude. I mention this because you entertained the idea of other career paths and not just MD/DO route. To note, I’m not a med student, but a non-trad student (30’s) applying for pharmacy residency programs throughout the country.

As a medically retired veteran, I am essentially being paid to be a student (pension, health coverage, housing payment deposits, tuition / book / professional exam coverage). I’m intrigued with being a drug expert, but it doesn’t trump my desire to fish/hunt and raise a family (wife with two kids) which I was able to do.

Straight A’s is a strong assumption, you have good options with a quicker avenue. To that, the journey is in your court.

Best of wishes.

Thank you. I’m going to be honest with you - I have given up on anything besides a professional career. I don’t see myself getting married unless a miracle happens and I doubt I’ll be raising kids. I have lived a brutal life and suffer from chronic pain, which has thankfully been mitigated slowly over time. But my personal life took a huge blow from that situation (I became disabled in undergrad) and I’ve been picking up the pieces ever since.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

What if I have absolutely no clinical hrs, leadership, and minimal volunteer work right now? Wouldn’t I have to address that situation in addition to completing the SMP

For all nontrads, I recommend gaining some clinical experience and shadowing first and foremost. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not make any decisions about career/life/enrolling in new classes until you've done the following:

- A few months of at least 1x/week clinical volunteering/work (the more the better!)
- 40 hours/5-7 workdays of physician shadowing (preferably primary care)

If it were up to me, every nontraditional would first shadow a physician and see what they like and what they don't like about the life of a physician. Take the opportunity to talk to the doctor - what does s/he think about your plans? What would they do if they had to start all over again? What do they like about their specialty? When you shadow, you get a chance to peer behind the curtain of medicine in a really unique way. The doctors I shadowed were quite frank with me about the positives and the negatives (both about medicine in general and my pursuit of medicine as a 30 year old nontrad), and I adored them for it. I was not able to make a fully informed decision about leaving my job and returning to school until I had shadowed a doctor for a few weeks.

Clinical experience will help you decide if you like being in a clinical environment, as you will be working alongside other medical professionals to care for people who are sick and hurting. This environment is not for everyone, and it's totally OK if it ends up being not for you. For example, I got my clinical experience in a high-mortality setting, and one of the other pre-health professions students volunteering with me couldn't deal with it. She couldn't handle seeing the pain/sadness surrounding critically ill people and their families. Healthcare wasn't for her, but I think it's awesome that she knew her limits and was able to make that call before she ventured too far down her career pathway.

 

[okyeah]

I'll second that a whole 2nd undergrad degree doesn't make the most sense.

I get the idea of wanting to get your feet wet again, but it won't take a whole undergrad degree to do that. Go ahead and take a semester or two of courses if you feel that you want to see how you do in academia again.

I do agree with an SMP probably being your best bet. They are high risk, but you aren't in the best position with your GPA.

You could have an ace up your sleeve such as being an inventor of something a little mindblowing for instance. Those types always get a decent wow from myself and my colleagues when we are interviewing for residency spots for instance. In that case, your non-traditional-ness could be an asset. Schools also seem to go for military non-trads a lot. However, in my estimation, while they are open to the rest of us non-trads and our experiences, it's not like they're exactly swooning over us.

The first two years of med school are super rigorous. An SMP would prove you can handle that rigor. A post-bacc could help, but with your current GPA, I think it may be too little too late. I'd think it's still a consideration though. To be honest, I don't know enough about an option where someone would do a post-bacc (a place to get your feet wet again), then move on to SMP. Maybe someone else can chime in about the feasibility of that path.

I'm not going to say a repeat undergrad won't work, but it seems a bit excessive and unnecessary for you.

I understand. Maybe I’m just too scared of the fact that I’ve been away from academics for 4 years. I guess there could be ways around that like you said. I could prepare myself on my own with textbooks, khan academy, etc. Do you have any advice on ways I can prep myself to get A’s?

But also I would need clinical hours, volunteer work, and maybe leadership? (I have something at my old job that could be considered leadership).

 

[Dral]

Yes, two separate things. First, you need to do the work to make sure all your boxes are checked so to speak.

To be honest, when I applied, I never got the memo that we were supposed to shadow. I somehow still got into a good school (but I doubt I'd get in in 2022 with my same app). A colleague's son applied last cycle unsuccessfully. He didn't get the memo about amount of clinical experience and volunteer work necessary. He fixed that and got in this cycle to a good school. Don't underestimate all the things you have to do...shadowing, non-clinical volunteer work, etc. The one thing that is a bit different for non-trads is research. That seems to be the trade off. We don't have to necessarily check off the research box. The whole 'life experience' thing seems to be a sort of stand in that helps make up for that in a way.

Secondly, in terms of grades, ya just gotta do it. You can do the academics thing. Most people who go back when they are older seem to bring with them maturity they didn't have prior. This seems to translate into better grades. With maturity comes the realization that you're not taking the classes for an A. You're taking them to actually learn the material to better yourself. That added investment seems to translate into better grades (makes sense). At least that's the hope.

I often in the past have listed the number of exams ahead for one during medical education:
MCAT
Step I
Step II
Step III
Shelf exams
several in service exams
Boards
-possible fellowship in service and boards-

There is A LOT of studying involved in this journey. Now is not the time to be afraid of studying and learning. If you are that apprehensive, start with a single moderately difficult course and see how you do. You haven't forgotten how to learn. Just be aware of how you learn best. I'm a visual learner/thinker for instance, so I had to work extra hard on non-visual things like pharm, while things like ochem and anatomy came easier to me. If you go in with some self-awareness you should be able to figure it out fairly quickly. I'd hate to see you floundering through another undergrad degree with A-'s and Bs with a few As, not sure if you should keep going or not vs just going all in on an SMP or post bacc where you would know your capabilities sooner without as much investment.

 

[okyeah]

For all nontrads, I recommend gaining some clinical experience and shadowing first and foremost. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not make any decisions about career/life/enrolling in new classes until you've done the following:

- A few months of at least 1x/week clinical volunteering/work (the more the better!)
- 40 hours/5-7 workdays of physician shadowing (preferably primary care)

If it were up to me, every nontraditional would first shadow a physician and see what they like and what they don't like about the life of a physician. Take the opportunity to talk to the doctor - what does s/he think about your plans? What would they do if they had to start all over again? What do they like about their specialty? When you shadow, you get a chance to peer behind the curtain of medicine in a really unique way. The doctors I shadowed were quite frank with me about the positives and the negatives (both about medicine in general and my pursuit of medicine as a 30 year old nontrad), and I adored them for it. I was not able to make a fully informed decision about leaving my job and returning to school until I had shadowed a doctor for a few weeks.

Clinical experience will help you decide if you like being in a clinical environment, as you will be working alongside other medical professionals to care for people who are sick and hurting. This environment is not for everyone, and it's totally OK if it ends up being not for you. For example, I got my clinical experience in a high-mortality setting, and one of the other pre-health professions students volunteering with me couldn't deal with it. She couldn't handle seeing the pain/sadness surrounding critically ill people and their families. Healthcare wasn't for her, but I think it's awesome that she knew her limits and was able to make that call before she ventured too far down her career pathway.

Okay I’ll start doing that ASAP! I already have an interview to volunteer with an old folks home. I need to do the shadowing next.

Do you think it’s possible to prep myself academically by myself to succeed in college courses? I might be overthinking this. I know in somewhat advanced courses they still review old material to establish a baseline. And I can get help in office hours if it’s really bad. The academia is a big worry for me.

 

[Dral]

You are overthinking it. As I said, you need to just do it. You can start with a course or two, but eventually you're going to have to face the music so to speak and go all in on coursework.

I'm not sure of any way to best prep yourself other than just doing it. The idea is more that you do it and if you have issues, you quickly identify them and get help to right the ship and sail forward. You can do specific things to prepare for exams like take review courses, but for courses, you just need to take them. They are the building blocks used to move forward. There may be a service you could use to see how you best learn or study maybe?

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to do yourself a solid and think this through a little bit more before you commit if you are this apprehensive and worried about going back into learner mode. This may be your brain somehow telling you it may not actually be the right direction to head in your life. It might not be that case, and I'm not telling you to just forget about the whole thing by any means. Just really think things through.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Okay I’ll start doing that ASAP! I already have an interview to volunteer with an old folks home. I need to do the shadowing next.

Do you think it’s possible to prep myself academically by myself to succeed in college courses? I might be overthinking this. I know in somewhat advanced courses they still review old material to establish a baseline. And I can get help in office hours if it’s really bad. The academia is a big worry for me.

I was several years out of school when I returned, and I had the same concerns. I did all my postbac classes at a local university and I started out slooooooowwwwww. I took precalculus only in my first semester back. Trying to prep with Khan Academy wasn't really beneficial for me - I needed the structure and feedback provided by a university course/instructor. However, I was taking college-level science and math for the first time, and since you already have a science degree, your learning curve isn't going to be as steep as mine. You might be OK using third party resources to refresh your knowledge, but I think you still need to find a way to be accountable for your learning (i.e., you need to find a way to be tested on this knowledge, but I don't really know how you'd do that other than finding practice questions).

It's hard to tell how you're going to do in school until you're actually there. I think it's wise for returning students to plan on a very light first semester back just to get their feet wet. Take a single class and put all your effort into it, see how you do. Students improve their academics by doing more academics and continually optimizing their study strategies, so this is what you have to do. Take comfort in the fact that nontrads, with the benefit of maturity and life experience, are often much better students the second time around.

 

[okyeah]

You are overthinking it. As I said, you need to just do it. You can start with a course or two, but eventually you're going to have to face the music so to speak and go all in on coursework.

I'm not sure of any way to best prep yourself other than just doing it. The idea is more that you do it and if you have issues, you quickly identify them and get help to right the ship and sail forward.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to do yourself a solid and think this through a little bit more before you commit if you are this apprehensive and worried about going back into learner mode. This may be your brain somehow telling you it may not actually be the right direction to head in your life.

Definitely, I feel so apprehensive because I’ve been in a situation where it was literally impossible to get an A in physics II because I had taken physics I at a community college. The physics II prof spoke broken English and the level of knowledge from the community college was just not up to par. I don’t want to find myself in one of those impossible situations.

Also it is definitely a huge risk and potential waste of money if I do not succeed so that just makes me very nervous as well.

I’m just never going to be happy in my current situation though so it may be worth it.

 

[Dral]

Well, giving us that information makes me say maybe a post-bacc could be a better place to start. If you don't have the right groundwork, an SMP may be a bit overwhelming. One is usually throwing all their eggs in one basket so to speak with an SMP. If you're not fully ready academically, them maybe it's not where you should start.

If you were directly out of undergrad but didn't have the best grades, an SMP would be a way to go. I'm not saying it's not still, but maybe not the best to jump in if you don't have the proper foundation.

Again, do some research into what it means to go through a post bacc vs SMP...advantages and disadvantages of both.

The fear/risk of going all in and ending up without a med school acceptance is real. Part of it is you asking yourself how important this is for you.

Does your undergrad institution have a premed program you could tap into? Some undergrad premed programs are obviously better than others for different reasons. Eight or nine years out, my undergrad program still let me utilize their help and gave me a committee letter to use for med schools. Tapping into that could help you realize what you need to do to get all things lined up for an application.

 

[okyeah]

Well, giving us that information makes me say maybe a post-bacc could be a better place to start. If you don't have the right groundwork, an SMP may be a bit overwhelming. One is usually throwing all their eggs in one basket so to speak with an SMP. If you're not fully ready academically, them maybe it's not where you should start.

If you were directly out of undergrad but didn't have the best grades, an SMP would be a way to go. I'm not saying it's not still, but maybe not the best to jump in if you don't have the proper foundation.

Again, do some research into what it means to go through a post bacc vs SMP...advantages and disadvantages of both.

The fear/risk of going all in and ending up without a med school acceptance is real. Part of it is you asking yourself how important this is for you.

Does your undergrad institution have a premed program you could tap into? Some undergrad premed programs are obviously better than others for different reasons. Eight or nine years out, my undergrad program still let me utilize their help and gave me a committee letter to use for med schools. Tapping into that could help you realize what you need to do to get all things lined up for an application.

This is partly why I think I should just do the Texas thing. Because I really don’t want to be in the state I live - but I am actually trapped here due to my career and paying off debt. I am from a super unprivileged background. Going to undergrad again should guarantee a start from scratch kind of scenario. I need to pay off things and save money which would take until 2023-24 anyway. So by that point I can just be on pace for the Texas fresh start or I could do the DIY post bacc and masters. Yes it is absolutely convoluted to do this either way. I understand why it would be weird for me to want to be a doctor at all.

Also I have only recently started this current job I’m in and it would be smarter to stay here 2-3 years before leaving and pursuing medicine.

I understand that people may not value a redo of undergrad. It just seems I am in a situation where I have a lot of work to do either way, regarding ECs and academia, so it may take me longer to get into a masters and get to med school anyway.

Edit: additionally, if I needed to prove to people beyond that point that I am capable I could do an SMP after an undergrad redo with confidence.

 

[okyeah]

I was several years out of school when I returned, and I had the same concerns. I did all my postbac classes at a local university and I started out slooooooowwwwww. I took precalculus only in my first semester back. Trying to prep with Khan Academy wasn't really beneficial for me - I needed the structure and feedback provided by a university course/instructor. However, I was taking college-level science and math for the first time, and since you already have a science degree, your learning curve isn't going to be as steep as mine. You might be OK using third party resources to refresh your knowledge, but I think you still need to find a way to be accountable for your learning (i.e., you need to find a way to be tested on this knowledge, but I don't really know how you'd do that other than finding practice questions).

It's hard to tell how you're going to do in school until you're actually there. I think it's wise for returning students to plan on a very light first semester back just to get their feet wet. Take a single class and put all your effort into it, see how you do. Students improve their academics by doing more academics and continually optimizing their study strategies, so this is what you have to do. Take comfort in the fact that nontrads, with the benefit of maturity and life experience, are often much better students the second time around.

What exactly did your post bacc look like if you don’t mind me asking? You did a DIY post bacc and then went to an SMP and then med school right?

 

[Bonne Nuit]

What exactly did your post bacc look like if you don’t mind me asking? You did a DIY post bacc and then went to an SMP and then med school right?

DIY postbac only, then medical school. I had an OK uGPA from a non-science degree, but I was missing every single medical school prerequisite except English and social science. So I enrolled at a local state university, took all my Bio/Chemistry/Calculus/Organic Chemistry/Physics/Biochem there and then applied directly to medical school.

SMPs come in two flavors: those for reinventors (appropriate for someone in your situation with all the prereqs but needing to improve grades) and career-changers (accelerated premed undergraduate classes for those who are starting from scratch). I looked into SMPs for career changers, but the ones I thought would be most useful were on the opposite coast and I realized could do a DIY postbac for less money at my local state school. So that's what I did.

DIY postbacs can also be appropriate for grade repair, though a formal SMP is a more direct/high yield route because of their linkages (but also high risk if you fail - as you've already mentioned). There are people who can't/won't do a formal SMP for grade repair and instead take several semesters of high level chemistry/biology at a local state school. This is usually enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, and with a high MCAT and a broad application to lots of MD/DO programs, success is very possible for reinventors via this route.

 

[okyeah]

DIY postbac only, then medical school. I had an OK uGPA from a non-science degree, but I was missing every single medical school prerequisite except English and social science. So I enrolled at a local state university, took all my Bio/Chemistry/Calculus/Organic Chemistry/Physics/Biochem there and then applied directly to medical school.

SMPs come in two flavors: those for reinventors (appropriate for someone in your situation with all the prereqs but needing to improve grades) and career-changers (accelerated premed undergraduate classes for those who are starting from scratch). I looked into SMPs for career changers, but the ones I thought would be most useful were on the opposite coast and I realized could do a DIY postbac for less money at my local state school. So that's what I did.

DIY postbacs can also be appropriate for grade repair, though a formal SMP is a more direct/high yield route because of their linkages (but also high risk if you fail - as you've already mentioned). There are people who can't/won't do a formal SMP for grade repair and instead take several semesters of high level chemistry/biology at a local state school. This is usually enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, and with a high MCAT and a broad application to lots of MD/DO programs, success is very possible for reinventors via this route.

I see! It seems a high MCAT is important and crucial to the whole picture no matter what happens.

I have major regrets about pursuing the major I did because it has left a stain on my record.
Thank you for the help, I’ll have to just start small anyway so I’ll start volunteering and shadowing asap. Maybe review khan academy and some textbooks as well just for a taste.

 

[snooper]

You could apply for a postbac program that has a direct linkage to med school to get some kind of feedback to see how they view your past undergrad and future admission to med school (they won't admit you if you have no shot).
I'd second getting a masters in a science/health related area because a. it seems more logical than repeating/erasing an undergrad degree (how are you explaining the gap in years of your erased undergrad?) b. it's usually a lot easier to get As in graduate classes.
Or how about getting a nursing or PA degree?
Lastly, you realize that residency will require at least 3 years of 80+hrs/week at minimum wage?

 

[okyeah]

You could apply for a postbac program that has a direct linkage to med school to get some kind of feedback to see how they view your past undergrad and future admission to med school (they won't admit you if you have no shot).
I'd second getting a masters in a science/health related area because a. it seems more logical than repeating/erasing an undergrad degree (how are you explaining the gap in years of your erased undergrad?) b. it's usually a lot easier to get As in graduate classes.
Or how about getting a nursing or PA degree?
Lastly, you realize that residency will require at least 3 years of 80+hrs/week at minimum wage?

Well the Texas fresh start would show that I had these previous grades so the context would still be there, they just wouldn’t be allowed to consider those old grades according to the law, if I’m not mistaken.

I would definitely be open to those other careers if I wasn’t a worthy candidate for med school.

I guess I could try to do the post bacc. I would have to fix up some grades either way to get letters of rec as well. I definitely need feedback on my situation because my gut tells me I should save money for awhile with this great job I got now and then do a Texas fresh start later because I’m blessed to have this current job and tossing this away is not something I can do lightly either.

I think I’ll have to see if I can shadow doctors then ask them about my situation. I hate talking about it because whenever I do it seems like a complete stretch to everyone. And I get that, I don’t like annoying people. The main reason I’m in this situation anyway is because I herniated a disc in my lower back in sophomore year of college and have been dealing with chronic pain ever since then. I didn’t understand what I should have done with school and withdrawing to protect my future and everything got completely out of hand in my life.

 

[BC_89]

Also - correct me if I’m wrong but, I would have to wait until 2028 to “invoke” the Fresh Start Act by taking 1 super easy class at a community college in order to activate it? My previous undergrad was 2012-2018. I read that you need to play a little trickery because the moment you invoke it - it just erases all 10 year old grades, but in order to invoke it you must start school and take at least 1 class at that school.

Correct -

If you graduated and the timeline falls 10 years from your LAST college credit course from your previous degree, you’ll need to take at least 1 credit at another institution to invoke it (typically a community college as you stated).

My only other subjective thought is to strongly consider time. Time means more than money: it’s hobbies, marriage, vacations, and self-preserve fortitude. I mention this because you entertained the idea of other career paths and not just MD/DO route. To note, I’m not a med student, but a non-trad student (30’s) applying for pharmacy residency programs throughout the country.

As a medically retired veteran, I am essentially being paid to be a student (pension, health coverage, housing payment deposits, tuition / book / professional exam coverage). I’m intrigued with being a drug expert, but it doesn’t trump my desire to fish/hunt and raise a family (wife with two kids) which I was able to do.

Straight A’s is a strong assumption, you have good options with a quicker avenue. To that, the journey is in your court.

Best of wishes.

I see what you meant from your previous question concerning when to invoke the Fresh Start Program (I misunderstood and made the necessary edits).

All the same, everything else implied by others strongly consider (DIY vs starting all over).

 

[okyeah]

I see what you meant from your previous question concerning when to invoke the Fresh Start Program (I misunderstood and made the necessary edits).

All the same, everything else implied by others strongly consider (DIY vs starting all over).

When I listened to this interview it seems more and more enticing to go to Texas just for this law. It seems like it really is a second shot and I could fully redo everything from scratch - although yes possibly more time consuming by 3 years or so.

 

[notasciencemajor]

I just don't understand why Fresh Start is so important to you when you can likely accomplish the same goal in less years with coursework more representative of medical school in a postbac/SMP. Right now you want to go to Texas, wait forever, and do a whoooole other 4-year degree. You seem like you have your mind made up, and I understand wanting to start over, but you'll get to start over in med school! And you'll get there by doing a postbac and/or SMP. Your GPA is bad and needs repair, but it's not dismal - you can do GPA repair and be successful. Don't waste your time waiting, uprooting your life to move to Texas, and pursuing another bachelors when you don't have to do that.