Name change for female medical students getting married

[OzDDS]

A married couple should have the same name. My wife didn't take my name and for 5 years I didn't think twice about it. It didn't matter to me at all.

Now, we are thinking of having kids. She wants them to have her name. Or to hypenate.

Unless you have the same name and merge all your assets, you are simply two people living together (and breaking up is easy, tempting, and fast).

If you don't have the same name you are not a family. Simple.

I feel for you.. sorry that happend, but you should have throught that through when your fiancie said "stuff you" when you suggested her taking your name.

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[OzDDS]

Your arguments are entirely one-sided. Look carefully at your own language. Why is it that SHE should "SACRIFICE" for family and children? Why is it your assumption that the MOTHER would be neglectful due to her career? In my experience, it is more often the crime of FATHERS to ignore their families for ambition. When are you going to learn that the responsibilities of family and children are equally on the shoulders of BOTH parents? The only role that is strictly womens' territory is giving birth (and breast-feeding if she chooses). Earning money is not implicitly the job of the father. Marriage is about partnership, respect, and teamwork. However it is that a given family decides to provide the resources for their children is up to them, so long as they both provide a loving and nuturing environment. In all of your ranting and raving, you have yet to mention the commitment and sacrifice that the father must ultimately uphold. Mind you, making money is easy. It's everything else that takes effort. I have the immense privilege of being married to the most amazing woman, and I recollect my vow to her...

"in taking the woman whom you hold by the right hand to be your lawful and wedded wife, I require you to promise to love and cherish her, to honor and sustain her, in sickness and in health, in poverty as in wealth, in bad that may darken your days, in the good that may lighten your ways, and to be true to her in all things until death alone shall part you. Do you so promise?"

The language is unambiguous and selfless. I do not call upon her to sacrifice for me; it's the other way around. I think it is the inability of modern MEN to recognize this that has led to so many unhappy marriages (and divorces). As you said, women are smart and capable. What intelligent person would enter a lifetime commitment into an unrespectful, subservient, and ultimately inequitable relationship?


Who said anything of the sort? Straighten up kid! Listen to what I'm telling you!

Hey.,. fine by me. If there is a woman out there that "thinks" she REALLY wants to work full time and pay for the house payment, car payment, kids tuition, food, utilities, etc, etc.. and allow me to stay at home and take care of the kids. Then Great!!! Bring it on. I'm all for equal opportunity!

 

[OzDDS]

Fact is.. women are usually never satisfied anyways..

Either:

If I want to stay home and take care of the kids while my wife works full time and pays all the bills.. then "I'm a lazy good for nothing bastard who doesn't have a job".

or

If I want to work full time and pay all the bills and allow my wife and the mother of my children to stay at home and take care of the kids.. "I'm a chauvinist pig" who doesn't respect women.


Either way you lose!

 

[OzDDS]

Why is it your assumption that the MOTHER would be neglectful due to her career? In my experience, it is more often the crime of FATHERS to ignore their families for ambition. When are you going to learn that the responsibilities of family and children are equally on the shoulders of BOTH parents?

Hey.. I understand what your trying to say.. but this isn't Sweeden. I don't know any real employers who are offering massive jobs at part time with paternity leave.

Someone has to make the living and pay the bills.. It is usually the man/father. But Hey.. if women want to go for it... be my guest. But are the women/mothers truely going to be happy with a stay at home husband/father.. some may for a while... but I dont know about long term.

 

[cowbell]

Hey.,. fine by me. If there is a woman out there that REALLY wants to work full time and pay for the house payment, car payment, kids tuition, food, utilities, etc, etc.. and allow me to stay at home and take care of the kids. Then Great!!! Bring it on. I'm all for equal opportunity!

He he. You sound well-intentioned. You are likely to find that such stringent and inflexible thinking are not consistent with a sucessful marriage. And for your sake, I hope you learn before you find yourself in a similar situation as Immuno-guy, because I am certain his problems do not stem from his wife's not accepting his surname. My wife and I work in partnership to fulfill all of our needs together. We both make money, and we both share in our chores. Like you said, no single person is superhuman, but you'd be surprised at what you can accomplish as a team. As for maternity/paternity leave, you are only accounting for 1-2 months in the lifetime of the child. You will find that the demands of modern living are likely to dissolve the traditional lines of breadwinner and caregiver.

As for Immuno-guy,

I know this might not be popular but...

A married couple should have the same name. My wife didn't take my name and for 5 years I didn't think twice about it. It didn't matter to me at all.

Now, we are thinking of having kids. She wants them to have her name. Or to hypenate. This is child abuse of the linguistic type. We only just got joint savings accounts.

Unless you have the same name and merge all your assets, you are simply two people living together (and breaking up is easy, tempting, and fast).

If you don't have the same name you are not a family. Simple.

I no longer want kids with her... to be honest.

I know that there is no way we can even fathom you marital dynamics, but I can state for you some incontravertable facts.
1. Your wife's not taking your name is fundamentally not the source of your marital strife.
2. By taking the vows of matrimony, you are MORALLY and LEGALLY related and family.

Your "simple" statement, "if you don't have the same name you are not a family" is persuasive testimony that you do not have a mental commitment to your marriage of 5 years. Any intelligent spouse in this circumstance would be stupid not to have financial and emotional safeguards in place for when you jump ship. And children? It would be "child abuse" of the literal type to bring a new life into this world with the state of your marriage.

 

[cowbell]

Fact is.. women are usually never satisfied anyways..

There you go again... insulting, degrading, and under-estimating women.

Your words... ALL OF THEM... speak for themselves.
My fondest and sincerest best wishes to you and your (possible) future wife. Maybe some years will shape your perspective and maybe not.

 

[SaraL124]

And what name does her "baby's daddy have?" they sound really unified as a family unit!!

Obviously her husband, the baby's father has the name he was born with.

You have failed again and again to answer the question than many posters have put to you...Why does a name make a family? Why is it not just that the family bond, caring feelings, and being involved in each other's lives, and living together in the same home can make a family? Maybe your grandmother and grandfather do not have the same last name as you, but does that make them not your family?

I agree with cowbell that your arguments are completely ridiculous and its really just you saying your opinion with no facts to back it up. You are entitled to your opinion that TO YOU a family should have the same name...so maybe you will find a woman with these same values who will take your name.

This inability of yours to see outside the box and your insistence on maintaining traditional values "because that's how it was always done" just shows how immature and uneducated you are. If we had always done things just because that's how they've always been done, there would still be slavery! Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't make it right. Modern times call for change, and I don't know if you've heard the adage but Change is good!

 

[OzDDS]

Why does a name make a family? Why is it not just that the family bond, caring feelings, and being involved in each other's lives, and living together in the same home can make a family? Maybe your grandmother and grandfather do not have the same last name as you, but does that make them not your family? !

So, What if my girlfriend and I have different names and live together, but are not married and have different bank accounts; but care for each other. Are we now a "family". hmm.. Is your definition of a "family" a group of people who care about each other and maybe sleep in the same building? I have a couple of roommates.. are we family? Hey.. I really care about those guys!!

If we had always done things just because that's how they've always been done, there would still be slavery! Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't make it right. Modern times call for change, and I don't know if you've heard the adage but Change is good!

Ok.. QTip.. I mean Sara... I still don't understand how I'm a KKK Nazi slave owner racist since that never came up in the conversation. But apperantly.. more than one person agrees. If I want my wife to have my last name. I'm a racist slave owner. Great!!!

 

[OzDDS]

And for your sake, I hope you learn before you find yourself in a similar situation as Immuno-guy, .

Yeah.. I hope I never find myself in that situation either. Which is why I'd be very reluctant to ever get married.

My wife and I work in partnership to fulfill all of our needs together. We both make money, and we both share in our chores. Like you said, no single person is superhuman, but you'd be surprised at what you can accomplish as a team. As for maternity/paternity leave, you are only accounting for 1-2 months in the lifetime of the child. You will find that the demands of modern living are likely to dissolve the traditional lines of breadwinner and caregiver.

Fair enough.. But still. It is usually one parent that ends up sacrificing more than other. It never works out that both parents can contribute equally financially to supporting the family paying the bills.. (usually one makes more than the other). Also, It also usually never works out that both spouse's employers give them both "equal" time off so they can both "equally" share in house duties and child rearing. It always falls more to one than the other.. Husband or wife.. (not that it matters who) But, That's just reality.

Nothings ever really equal

 

[SaraL124]

So, What if my girlfriend and I have different names and live together, but are not married and have different bank accounts; but care for each other. Are we now a "family". hmm..

The point is when you get married you make the commitment in front of your family, friends, (and god if you're religious), and the state. This makes it a legal union, one that is recognized the world over as legitimate marital relationhsip. Some people may say that a commonlaw marriage is just as good. I personally believe in marriage making you legally related as one family regardless of your names. And, anyway, many married couples with the same name retain separate bank accounts, and some married couples wit different names merge them. You and your live-in girlfriend could merge bank accounts, you know....You don't need the same name to do that.

Ok.. QTip.. I mean Sara... I still don't understand how I'm a KKK Nazi slave owner racist since that never came up in the conversation. But apperantly.. more than one person agrees. If I want my wife to have my last name. I'm a racist slave owner. Great!!!

Um...Where did I ever call you a racist? My point was that the status quo isn't always the right way to do things. Slavery aside, you could just as easily use the example of women having the right to vote or birth control!

 

[Qtip96]

Ok.. QTip.. I mean Sara... I still don't understand how I'm a KKK Nazi slave owner racist since that never came up in the conversation. But apperantly.. more than one person agrees. If I want my wife to have my last name. I'm a racist slave owner. Great!!!

yooouuuu rraaaannnngggg?

let's expand upon this analogy, shall we? why don't we compare your opinions (so as not to confuse this as a personal attack if you whimper) with that of a post-civil war slave-owner.

PLANTATION OWNER:
"my slaves stayed at home and did all the housekeeping and chores"
"i provided for them real good, but they're so fickle and unappreciative"
"i know what's good for them, and i take good care of them"
"what are they going to do with freedom? why can't they just be happy cooking for me?"
"of course they will take my name, because their identities should be defined by me!"

YOUR OPINIONS:
scattered throughout this thread. pretty self-explanatory.

CONSENSUS:
both yearn for the bygone era when slaves... oops! i mean... wifes would take on their family names, be happy cooking and cleaning, and stop trying to partake in such nonsense as contributing to society, independence, etc. etc.

 

[OzDDS]

I am quite finished discussing this topic with you. My fondest and sincerest best wishes to you and your (possible) future wife.

Well..

I say that I'm going to work full time and support my wife and kids and allow her to stay home and take care of the kids.

You bash me for that..

I say that I'd stay home and take care of the kids while my wife worked and supported us..

You bashed me for that too...


What do you claim to be the best way? When both partners are working part time and both have equal time off every other day to help raise the kids.. that's not realistic!!

 

[OzDDS]

yooouuuu rraaaannnngggg?

let's expand upon this analogy, shall we? why don't we compare your opinions (so as not to confuse this as a personal attack if you whimper) with that of a post-civil war slave-owner.

PLANTATION OWNER:
"my slaves stayed at home and did all the housekeeping and chores"
"i provided for them real good, but they're so fickle and unappreciative"
"i know what's good for them, and i take good care of them"
"what are they going to do with freedom? why can't they just be happy cooking for me?"
"of course they will take my name, because their identities should be defined by me!"

YOUR OPINIONS:
scattered throughout this thread. pretty self-explanatory.

CONSENSUS:
both yearn for the bygone era when slaves... oops! i mean... wifes would take on their family names, be happy cooking and cleaning, and stop trying to partake in such nonsense as contributing to society, independence, etc. etc.

"Craaaazzzooo .... Craaaaaa'zooo. Harry Belafante is a crazy Mo Fo!!! "

- SNL : Best of Tracy Morgan

Come on QTip.. give me another one. Keep this crazy train rollin.

 

[Qtip96]

"Craaaazzzooo .... Craaaaaa'zooo. Harry Belafante is a crazy Mo Fo!!! "

- SNL : Best of Tracy Morgan

Come on QTip.. give me another one. Keep this crazy train rollin.

i would, but i'm tryin' to keep it relevant to the discussion.

you couldn't take it anyways...
you'd probably go cryin' to mommy. wah!

Thank you DrMom!!

 

[SaraL124]

Well..

I say that I'm going to work full time and support my wife and kids and allow her to stay home and take care of the kids.

You bash me for that..

I say that I'd stay home and take care of the kids while my wife worked and supported us..

You bashed me for that too...


What do you claim to be the best way? When both partners are working part time and both have equal time off every other day to help raise the kids.. that's not realistic!!

1. I think what many people have been trying to tell you is the best way is when both partners work (40 hours is not part time) and get to spend time with the kids. This can be done because after the first 3 years of life, most children go to school 8 hours/day. Growing up, those people I knew who did not have parents who could pick them up from school at 3pm went to play groups, or did other after-school activities until 5 or 6 when one parent could pick them up from school. Many people I know, including myself, have not been scared by this arrangement.

Children aren't infants forever. After about age 3-4 they are in school most of the day. In elementary and middle school they mostly want to be with their friends and do activities. Even stay-at-home moms don't coddle their kids 24 hours a day. Dinnertime, bathtime, bedtime, and weekends are all times when quality time can be had with kids. Child-rearing can be a full time job for those who want it to be, but raising successful, healthy, well-adjusted kids doesn't require one full-time stay at home parent.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I appreciate what you're trying to say, Sara, but in reality there is two obvious kinks to this system: Multiple children, and the damage your extended maternity leave will do to your career.

So you have a baby and decide to follow the "quit for 4 years, then return" plan. But two years later you give Sara Jr. [apropos to nothing, but why aren't female children ever called Mothersname Jr.? Why is it customary only to do this with male children? ] ... anyway, where was I, oh yes: you have a second child and suddenly your 4-year-plan is automatically extended to 6 or 7 years. That can go up to 9 or higher if you have a third kid, and so on.

BUT let's say you stick it out and, after the better part of a decade is history, decide to return to your career. But while you were patient enough to wait for your career, your career was not patient enough to wait for you. Everybody else has 7 (or whatever) years on you. Most of your old networking ties, ties with classmates, etc are history. You have to start from scratch. Plus, you yourself are going to be rusty, especially in a field like medicine which demands constant continuing education. Maybe you'll wind up like so many women and will settle for parttime / casual employment, or will give up and just not work at all.

There is no easy way around this. Stop kidding yourself. If it really were that simple, none of the posters here would have had stay-at-home moms, and this would never be a topic of conversation IRL.

Women in my class are constantly talking about this dilemma. A depressingly large fraction of them are going to quit when the kids come. Yes, I said "depressingly" because it's like taking all that long, expensive, useful-to-society medical education and *flushing it down the nearest toilet* while their husbands are making HALF of her potential income in a field such as marketing.

I may someday regret asking this but: Why don't women ever ask men to even *consider* making this kind of sacrifice instead? Especially when logic is overwhelmingly in her favor, i.e. she is an M.D. and he is a college dropout? Why don't I ever hear the other guys wondering what will happen to their careers when the baby arrives?

Conversation you will not hear at the local sports bar:

"Oh, I just don't know how I will be able to finish my residency once my wife gets pregnant. Their paternity leave sucks, and you just know they'll daddy-track me even if I do come back to work."

"Yeah, I hear you man. My wife is already demanding that I stay home, at least for a few years. She's a schoolteacher and I'm an orthopedic surgeon but you know, she has a point because dads in her family always stay home with the kids."

"Maybe you should. My wife and I tried working full-time but it just wasn't doable even with daycare. So I had to sell my practice to stay home. But who knows, once we're finally done making babies, maybe I can work part-time at a doc-in-the-box! <crosses fingers> Ooh, and the Buckeyes just scored a TD, yesss!"

anyway, uh... um yeah.

 

[piercj2]

Great post forbiddenComma, women really have no intrinsic urge to make money, gain prestige, power ect, other wise they would not feel so good about trying to marry into it. They view thier jobs and accomplishments as, "using thier takents or capabilities, or helping people." Women are not intrinciscally motivated to gain money power, ect, and are naturally submissive, which allows for them to give in to big decicsions and give things up. HOwever they still do well and go far in school, because thier natural tendency to listen and follow directions

 

[lilmissfickle]

Women are not intrinciscally motivated to gain money power, ect, and are naturally submissive, which allows for them to give in to big decicsions and give things up. However they still do well and go far in school, because thier natural tendency to listen and follow directions

Really? See, I always thought that women make sacrifices because their husbands refuse to do so. I mean, if you don't have kids, you can just refuse to pick up after your husband and cook for him, etc, if he doesn't do his part and pitch in as well. But as soon as kids enter into the equation, men (not all men...the dinguses of the world) know that a woman will just give up and do the chores out of love for her children...not because of her 'natural tendency to listen and follow directions" or natural submissiveness or other such bull.

And believe me, and I care a lot about money, because I know it is the key to my indepence...it means I will never have to rely on alimony or child support or have to defer to my bread-winner husband when he's a jerk because I'm afraid of losing the roof over my head. I plan to hire a cleaning service and a cook so that I don't have to waste the time I have off from work on house chores, and can instead spend that time with my family.

Additionally, having a mother who worked as a research scientist and quit to take better care of me when I was a kid has made me vow to never quit my career to become a stay-at-home mom. When my mom quit her job, she lost contact with her passion (research), her friends (young people she had things in common with that didn't include daycare, diaper genies, or breastfeeding), and her indentification as a smart, ambitious, independent woman....and instead her entire life became about raising me well. That is an enormous amount of pressure to put on your kids, to know that you are the only true priority in your mother's life. It made me feel guilty, pressured, and smothered, and this quickly turned into resentment...I was mad at my mom for quiting her job for me, so we'd fight and I'd feel guilty and this would make me mad all over again. Our relationship was absolutely terrible until she went back to work...now we get along so well. I'm proud of her and she's way more emotionally stable, which means I am, too. My mother agrees that staying home to take care of me was the worst parenting decision she ever made, and similarily, I'll never inflict that kind of pressure and guilt on my kids.

(By the way...I don't think there's anything wrong about taking time off to take care of an infant or toddler...although it's not necessary. My mom was in grad school when I was born and worked/studied full time, and I was perfectly happy and taken care of. But staying home to take care of pre-teens/teens can actually backfire, and that was the point of my post).

 

[Qtip96]

Banned
Great post forbiddenComma, women really have no intrinsic urge to make money, gain prestige, power ect, other wise they would not feel so good about trying to marry into it. They view thier jobs and accomplishments as, "using thier takents or capabilities, or helping people." Women are not intrinciscally motivated to gain money power, ect, and are naturally submissive, which allows for them to give in to big decicsions and give things up. HOwever they still do well and go far in school, because thier natural tendency to listen and follow directions

Shananana, Shananana, Hey Hey Hey, Goodbyyyyyeeee...

 

[manta]

I thought I would repost this to see if anyone else had any opinions:

This is true.. although personally.. I would prefer "if" I were to marry that my future wife took my last name.

It is a proven fact that those who get pre-nups have a higher divorce rate than those who dont. Because it makes it legally easier to separate... the same could be argued for "not changing your name". Just a thought..

Anyone else agree with this theory?

no, for similar reasons that others have given. frankly, if a woman is staying in a marriage just because she has her husband's name on her credit card, that's a rather miserable reason to stay married. i have no idea if keeping one's maiden name makes the divorce process easier, but i don't know why it would.

pre-nups are different because you are acknowledging that divorce is a tangible option - it's like a game plan for if/when it happens. not changing your name doesn't mean the same thing at all. my husband left the name decision entirely up to me, and i ended up not changing it. i certainly respect the insitution of marriage enough that working towards healthy and fulfilling marriage is a top priority in my life, and i can do that no matter what my name is.

however, your preferences concerning this issue are own, and i'm not going to take it upon myself to try to convince you to change your mind. i just wanted to stand up for myself and my marriage. i don't have any fancy graphs or stats to show you, but i'm telling you that many of us somehow manage to have happy marriages despite having two different last names.

 

[Sweenracer]

My wife changed her name when we got married in her 2nd year of Med school. It has actually worked more in her favor because my aunt was a renowned Orthopaedic Surgeon at the hospital where she douing her Residency now. She gets a lot of name recognition. Do what's best for your career.