My Thoughts on Ross University

[Excelsius]

The AMSA magazine last year published a statistic that there was approximately currently a 5% attrition rate, with about a 1.5% leaving for academic reasons, and the remainder leaving for other reasons. So there's just no way the attrition is anything close to 8.4%, unless AAMC and you are including folks going into PhD or joint degree programs who simply don't graduate in 4 years with their class, and folks who otherwise don't complete in 4 years (but will graduate) due to illness or academic reasons or taking research years. In the 80s the number of folks who took research years or did joint degrees was lower, so that may explain the difference in AAMC's numbers -- the attrition rate is probably historically about 5% (both then and now), but the number of people taking longer to graduate may be increasing due to various joint offerings and research options.

I don't know about AMSA, but the source itself is AAMC and I would lean towards it for accuracy. From about mid 90s to now the MD/PhD programs have increased only by about 200 spots, so their effect would not be significant. Nevertheless, this still doesn't matter. Even if AAMC lists how many students graduate for any given year, and not for a given class for however many years it takes to graduate, then the graduates that didn't appear in 2002, for example, would appear in 2003-07. Any other presumption assumes that AAMC is incompetent in its metrics to leave out a large portion of med school graduates just because they took longer to graduate.

Furthermore, just the assumption that significant portion of matriculants take longer to graduate only adds to the shortages of the graduating class, which is the main point. Detailed reasons for the shortage are insignificant.

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[Law2Doc]

Again, there is no evidence of the sort of increases that you are mentioning.

Of course there is. The fact that some med schools no longer can fit the number of matriculants into a single auditorium due to their voluntary increases as per AAMC request is evidence. You can't look at old data and ignore what has happened in the last 3 years. Which is that almost every school has increased their enrollment significantly for each of the last three years. So you cannot look at graduation data and say nothing is happening when you miss the fact that all this to-do happened in 2005 and so the first classes that were increased graduate in 2010. Starting with that year, you are going to see some impressive increases each year for at least three years so far, and probably more thereafter. So don't look at historical stuff. Look at what the med schools are doing now, due to AAMC requests made in 2005 for a voluntary increase of 5-15% across the board. It's happening. Anyone in med school can tell you that the school has more people in the class behind them than in front of them.

 

[Decicco]

Of course there is. The fact that some med schools no longer can fit the number of matriculants into a single auditorium due to their voluntary increases as per AAMC request is evidence. You can't look at old data and ignore what has happened in the last 3 years. Which is that almost every school has increased their enrollment significantly for each of the last three years. So you cannot look at graduation data and say nothing is happening when you miss the fact that all this to-do happened in 2005 and so the first classes that were increased graduate in 2010. Starting with that year, you are going to see some impressive increases each year for at least three years so far, and probably more thereafter. So don't look at historical stuff. Look at what the med schools are doing now, due to AAMC requests made in 2005 for a voluntary increase of 5-15% across the board. It's happening. Anyone in med school can tell you that the school has more people in the class behind them than in front of them.

All this, plus there are several new MD schools opening.

 

[Excelsius]

Maybe Law2Doc would argue that DOs will begin to fill this necessity more as there will be more US-MDs to take competitive MD residencies.

That carries the assumption that DO students are somehow inferior to MD students since your suggestion will force them into primary care. As many in here like to point out all the time, DO=MD. Your suggestion definitely changes that. If MD spots are filled, that doesn't necessarily mean that DO=FP. They can open more DO residencies or create a sort of an affirmative action for DOs applying to MD residencies. They can also fight to legally equate DOs to MDs, which was almost attempted some time ago, if I understood correctly. It will be much easier to force foreign residents into primary care residencies than the ones educated right here in USA. Right now premeds are going into DO because they are promised almost the same opportunities. Once that changes, DOs will be as popular as primary care specialties which they will represent and premeds will apply to DOs far less. If that really happens, then the Caribbean schools might go down. I suggest you go to the DO forum and post your suggestion there and see what happens. Something tells me it is not going to work.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of all that is holy ... NO MD vs DO war. Honestly it's just not worth it, at all.

 

[Decicco]

The only alternative would be for a DO student to get an MD residency spot inplace of an MD (remember, we are assuming that the # of MD residency spots will equal the number of MD students). This seems unlikely. I agree that pre-DOs and DO students would not like this outcome. However, most DO schools are very outspoken about how their foremost concern is providing primary care physicians, so this would be consistent with this outcome.

EDIT: This is about all the speculation I can handle for one day. Maybe we can just agree that the future of residencies is uncertain for FMGs and DOs.

 

[Tired]

I'm just going to throw this out there for the sake of all that is holy ... NO MD vs DO war. Honestly it's just not worth it, at all.

Agreed.

But really, there's nothing funnier than the Carrib MD vs U.S. DO argument.

Check out the International forum, where the consensus seems to be that, "Residencies in NYC prefer SGU grads to DOs".

 

[JaggerPlate]

The only alternative would be for a DO student to get an MD residency spot inplace of an MD (remember, we are assuming that the # of MD residency spots will equal the number of MD students). This seems unlikely.

Doesn't this happen all the time though?? I mean if you have 5 students interview for 2 residency spots, 4 MDs and 1 DO and one spot goes to an MD and the other to a DO ... didn't the DO take the spot away from several MD students?? This doesn't mean that the other MD students won't match ... it just means that one MD residency spot went to a DO student??

 

[JaggerPlate]

Agreed.

But really, there's nothing funnier than the Carrib MD vs U.S. DO argument.

Check out the International forum, where the consensus seems to be that, "Residencies in NYC prefer SGU grads to DOs".

ROFL ... ohh I've seen and been a part of quite a few.

 

[MossPoh]

It is. Florida is getting a few new slots. But they dwarfed that with a couple new schools. Other places aren't getting an increase. The total number of funded residency slots nationally is fairly stagnant (by design).

To follow up with what you are saying. A "few" spots in Florida is nothing. We have two new schools that alone, will produce around 90 graduates in Florida for the first graduating class. FSU just started taking in their full class of 120 or so. Within 4 or 5 years there will be about 230+ MORE medical graduates in the state of Florida than there was a couple of years ago. I am actually underestimating that number. I didn't really factor in LECOM-B. In addition, there is talk of opening another DO school, as well as expanding some other programs. A few residency spots won't do much for that. 60+ spots MIGHT do something about that, with over 100 probably being ideal.

 

[Excelsius]

Of course there is. The fact that some med schools no longer can fit the number of matriculants into a single auditorium due to their voluntary increases as per AAMC request is evidence. You can't look at old data and ignore what has happened in the last 3 years. Which is that almost every school has increased their enrollment significantly for each of the last three years. So you cannot look at graduation data and say nothing is happening when you miss the fact that all this to-do happened in 2005 and so the first classes that were increased graduate in 2010. Starting with that year, you are going to see some impressive increases each year for at least three years so far, and probably more thereafter. So don't look at historical stuff. Look at what the med schools are doing now, due to AAMC requests made in 2005 for a voluntary increase of 5-15% across the board. It's happening. Anyone in med school can tell you that the school has more people in the class behind them than in front of them.

Look, you're saying that starting in 2006 (graduation year 2010) there have been significant increases in enrollment. I am saying that compared to 2005, the increase in 2006 was only 2.6%. There is no data for 2007 yet. 2006 is the most recent data available. The data that is available, says that the increase has been very little, very short of impressive. You can assume that 2008 or even 2009 is suddenly going to see a 10% just based on anecdotal evidence which is impossible to even translate into numbers. With no new medical schools in sight until around 2015, I don't see the increases you mention. But let's wait for the data for 2007 and see what happens.

 

[Excelsius]

The only alternative would be for a DO student to get an MD residency spot inplace of an MD (remember, we are assuming that the # of MD residency spots will equal the number of MD students). This seems unlikely. I agree that pre-DOs and DO students would not like this outcome. However, most DO schools are very outspoken about how their foremost concern is providing primary care physicians, so this would be consistent with this outcome.

EDIT: This is about all the speculation I can handle for one day. Maybe we can just agree that the future of residencies is uncertain for FMGs and DOs.

Hence the suggestion that DOs might open their own residency spots.

Since I read the threads in the allo and residency forums, I myself have mentioned several times why DO can be a limiting factor for certain specialties, but many naive pre-meds and some med students keep claiming that they are the same with a difference only in letters. I guess they need to read this thread.

I agree that whatever the case, we can't be certain about any one outcome for DO residencies. I think it would do justice to all pre-meds to sticky the AAMC's announcement in increase MD students and the ramifications that might have for DO students seeking residencies ten years from now.

 

[Law2Doc]

You can assume that 2008 or even 2009 is suddenly going to see a 10% just based on anecdotal evidence which is impossible to even translate into numbers. With no new medical schools in sight until around 2015, I don't see the increases you mention. But let's wait for the data for 2007 and see what happens.

I'm saying that if you go to most med schools, you will find that the 3rd year class has 5-15 more people in it than the fourth year class, and the 2d year class has 5-15 more people than the third year class and so on. The AAMC requested (in 2005) that schools to voluntarily increase their ranks, and they did so, pretty much across the board. That's hardly anecdotal -- you can check. Again, if you are looking at graduation figures (instead of matriculation) the 2007 data won't show anything. Nor will 2008. Nor will 2009. But 2010 will because that is when these third years, the first such increase, comes out of the pipeline. And again in 2011 when the second years come out. And again in 2012 when the first years come out. (Beyond that it's speculation, but if schools continue to abide by the AAMC's request, this pattern will continue). It's not anecdotal because you can verify it (both the AAMC request and the increases in enrollment). And anyone at any med school can tell you first hand. It's a real increase, and quite noticeable in most classrooms on exam days, as most med schools don't yet have the infrastructure to handle all these additional bodies.

All I'm saying is when you combine this increase with the additional schools you have agreed are going to pop up, we are talking a lot less spots left for non-US educated folks to shoot for in the match. And my bet is that once the odds of matching in the US drop below 30%, you are going to see significant upheavals, mergers and closings of the offshore schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hence the suggestion that DOs might open their own residency spots.

That's between them and the feds -- the AAMC certainly isn't looking out for them in the same way it looks out for US allo. But it's certainly not just an ask for it and you'll get it kind of thing.

 

[USArmyDoc]

The problem is the proving of knowledge. US schools are accredited by LCME, which carefully supervises, inspects and maintains specific requirements for US schools and residencies. The boards are a flawed test designed to demonstrate mimimum proficiency, not quality, and really tells you nothing about how this person will be with patients or working in a team, the keys to any service organization. So there is really no way an FMG can prove equality with the US. In general, all you know about them is the board score. That's often not enough to override the substantial quality control you have gotten. So to even look at someone coming from a system not endorsed by the LCME, you set your threshold higher. Because you don't have a good ability to gauge what these folks are bringing to the table. It's not about fairness, it's about a closed system where you know what you are getting in and out, and what is happening in between. It's actually the most fair system on the planet -- you try getting licensed to practice in another country, and you will see that the US gives far more opportunities at present. Because we currently have the demand -- our residency slots outnumber our educational supply. Once this changes, we will join the ranks of all the other nations with their closed medical education system.

You are a smart guy....I agree with you though, but I just think its unfair put them down b/c they went overseas. However, I know that is the way it is. Samething for US MDs putting down US DO's and vice versa

 

[Excelsius]

I'm saying that if you go to most med schools, you will find that the 3rd year class has 5-15 more people in it than the fourth year class, and the 2d year class has 5-15 more people than the third year class and so on. The AAMC requested (in 2005) that schools to voluntarily increase their ranks, and they did so, pretty much across the board. That's hardly anecdotal -- you can check. Again, if you are looking at graduation figures (instead of matriculation) the 2007 data won't show anything. Nor will 2008. Nor will 2009. But 2010 will because that is when these third years, the first such increase, comes out of the pipeline. And again in 2011 when the second years come out. And again in 2012 when the first years come out. (Beyond that it's speculation, but if schools continue to abide by the AAMC's request, this pattern will continue). It's not anecdotal because you can verify it (both the AAMC request and the increases in enrollment). And anyone at any med school can tell you first hand. It's a real increase, and quite noticeable in most classrooms on exam days, as most med schools don't yet have the infrastructure to handle all these additional bodies.

All I'm saying is when you combine this increase with the additional schools you have agreed are going to pop up, we are talking a lot less spots left for non-US educated folks to shoot for in the match. And my bet is that once the odds of matching in the US drop below 30%, you are going to see significant upheavals, mergers and closings of the offshore schools.

Obviously the data I gave you was for matriculation. Graduation data for 2006 would be useless. At this point, everything is a speculation. Let's wait for the 2007 matriculation data to come out and then we can talk.

Also, while this may not have much to do with the Caribbean residencies, keep in mind that if the numbers of doctors increased the same way as it did in the past, the total matriculants today should have been around 40,000, not 17,000 plus the few thousand increase that is going to happen. This number doesn't include the fact that the elderly population is increasing at a faster rate today than back in the 60s and that more and more younger patients seek prophylactic treatments.

 

[LovelyBRass]

You are a smart guy....I agree with you though, but I just think its unfair put them down b/c they went overseas. However, I know that is the way it is. Samething for US MDs putting down US DO's and vice versa

I don't think it's xenophobia or a superiority complex that makes the AAMC "put down" FMGs or US DOs.... The AAMC needs to look out for US allos - it needs to keep the MD competitive in this country to keep salaries up (and to convince people to invest all of that money to obtain this degree). It's the same reason we don't have a whole bunch of seats in medical school the way we have hundreds of thousands of graduates in undergraduate colleges - the AAMC needs to keep numbers low to keep salaries high. If anyone (well, you know what I mean) could get an MD, it wouldn't be worth much, would it?

 

[Excelsius]

I actually found some good data. Some of what was said in this thread was correct, a lot was not. Since it was getting off-topic, I created another thread to specifically address statistics and misconceptions.

 

[Law2Doc]

You are a smart guy....I agree with you though, but I just think its unfair put them down b/c they went overseas.

I'm not putting them down. The AAMC isn't putting them down. They are saying that the US prefers to have oversight over the folks that will become residents. And that US students should meet US needs. It's very national-centric (and comparable to what virtually every other nation in the world does), not putting others down.

 

[Law2Doc]

I actually found some good data. Some of what was said in this thread was correct, a lot was not. Since it was getting off-topic, I created another thread to specifically address statistics and misconceptions.

You've got some bad data on there, and you also keep resorting to putting tables from, and projections derived from past graduation rates, which don't tell you anything about what is going on now. Also your quote "In other words, AAMC actually counts IMGs as part of its goal to increase med school graduates by 15% by 2015 or so." is simply wrong because it's opposite of the actual charging orders given by the AAMC to US schools. The AAMC has stated that it wants US seats to meet US needs. It has also stated that US med schools should increase by 15% over the next few years (See eg. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_/ai_n13790786). This is US students, not increases in IMG grads. That's just wrong.

Additionally, your suggestion that numbers haven't gone up significantly still ignores what is happening presently in terms of record increases in folks in the pipeline. For instance, one article notes, "First-year enrollment at U.S. medical schools reached an all-time high this year as more than 18,000 first-year students enrolled in U.S. medical schools, increasing 2 percent over 2007, the Association of American Medical Colleges announced Tuesday." That's record numbers of first years in med school now. It's hard to imagine that this isn't going to translate to an increase in graduates in a few years. See http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_11864.shtml.

Believe what you want, but the big increase in US graduates is coming up through the ranks. This increase, over time, will drive the 40% of FMGs that snare US residencies down to substantially worse odds. The elimination of vacancies starts in 2010, and will continue progressively.

 

[Taurus]

I actually found some good data. Some of what was said in this thread was correct, a lot was not. Since it was getting off-topic, I created another thread to specifically address statistics and misconceptions.

Law2Doc is correct. As any medical student who is currently in a US MD program can attest, class sizes are bigger than ever. My class is the biggest my school ever had and the classes below are even bigger. Since it sounds like you go to a Carib MD program, you don't see this happening. National attrition rate averages 5% and it's unlikely to deviate above that because unlike Carib MD programs US MD programs try very hard to keep their students in school.

 

[Taurus]

After that point there will be no stigma for caribbean schools because all those schools will rapidly disappear.

I think it may be premature to predict the demise of the Carib MD programs. I have no doubt that these Carib MD programs can see what's happening as well as we can. Since they're run by business people, they will do whatever it takes to keep their businesses running. I believe that's why the family that owns AUC opened RVU. The owners of Carib MD programs are anticipating the AAMC changes by changing their business model from offshore MD programs to for-profit DO programs.

 

[Decicco]

the family that owns AUC opened RVU. The owners of Carib MD programs are anticipating the AAMC changes by changing their business model from offshore MD programs to for-profit DO programs.

There are alot of caribbean medical schools. Are each of them going to open a DO school in the states?

 

[Taurus]

There are alot of caribbean medical schools. Are each of them going to open a DO school in the states?

If you read that RVU thread, someone mentioned 3 new for-profit DO schools are in the works. RVU opened the doors and now everyone is rushing in before it's too late.

 

[isaacmn]

I don't think so. It seems like the less competitive medical schools tend to expand class sizes rather than raising their admissions bar.

Actually, I think so ,if u look at SGU stats of applicants and other big 3., honestly those people should have gotten into medical school in the United States...they are getting competitive, I mean those schools sure do land competitive residencies like neurosurgery

 

[Depakote]

this thread really belongs in the carib forum.

moving.

 

[dragonfly99]

Actually, I think so ,if u look at SGU stats of applicants and other big 3., honestly those people should have gotten into medical school in the United States...they are getting competitive, I mean those schools sure do land competitive residencies like neurosurgery

The number of Caribbean med school graduates who become neurosurgeons in the US is quite small. There might be 1 or 2 here or there, but I've never seen nor met one...and several of these schools have hundreds of entering students/year, so matching 1 into neurosurgery is actually not a good match rate. There are more Carib grad in fields like IM and family practice, and also some in fields like anesthesia and the less competitive surgical fields like general surgery.

I think lawdoc's prediction that Caribbean schools will soon go under due to their being more US grads is kind of an overstatement. I think some of them likely will go under, but it won't be SGU/Ross/AUC - at least not right away. It will be the really weak ones.

Lawdoc is correct in saying that US schools are expanding, and right now residency programs aren't expanding at the same rate, so that will make things tighter for any FMG/IMG's trying to get into the US, and perhaps for DO's as well. The AAMC has been very clear about what they are trying to do, and it makes sense. Many/most, maybe all, other countries in the world don't rely in importing foreign-trained docs to the extent that we do. It doesn't really make sense from a societal point of view b/c it would be better to train our own docs so we can exert quality control over the educational process. That doesn't mean that some schools like SGU and Ross don't provide a similar curriculum to US schools, but there are definitely Caribbean schools out there that are dodgy and aren't training the students with nearly the same rigor/standards as US schools, which actually takes tremendous resources.

At the same time AAMC has been strongly suggesting US schools increase their enrollments (and the schools have been doing that) there isn't a similar push to increase residency spots. Also, US hospitals aren't going to just create residencies as was suggested above - residents ARE cheap labor but supervising and trying to provide some sort of education for them is very expensive so that having them isn't necessarily a great way for hospitals to save money. Hospitals can't just decide to create residency programs either...they have to get accreditation, Medicare funding to pay for them, etc. It's not a simple process.

US DO's might very well just expand their residencies to create more spots for their students - this would be reasonable to do since they too are increasing their class sizes. US allopathic residency slots also might expand, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do increase in the next 10 years or so, but basically they are funded by Medicare so I don't see that happening in the next 2-3 years with our current economic recession. If residencies do expand, it's likely to be IM and fp (due to the gov't seeing a need for primary care docs) so that some US and IMG/FMG students will be forced into those residencies even if primary care wasn't their original career goal.

 

[McGillGrad]

Great post, dragonfly.

 

[isaacmn]

The number of Caribbean med school graduates who become neurosurgeons in the US is quite small. There might be 1 or 2 here or there, but I've never seen nor met one...and several of these schools have hundreds of entering students/year, so matching 1 into neurosurgery is actually not a good match rate. There are more Carib grad in fields like IM and family practice, and also some in fields like anesthesia and the less competitive surgical fields like general surgery.

I think lawdoc's prediction that Caribbean schools will soon go under due to their being more US grads is kind of an overstatement. I think some of them likely will go under, but it won't be SGU/Ross/AUC - at least not right away. It will be the really weak ones.

Lawdoc is correct in saying that US schools are expanding, and right now residency programs aren't expanding at the same rate, so that will make things tighter for any FMG/IMG's trying to get into the US, and perhaps for DO's as well. The AAMC has been very clear about what they are trying to do, and it makes sense. Many/most, maybe all, other countries in the world don't rely in importing foreign-trained docs to the extent that we do. It doesn't really make sense from a societal point of view b/c it would be better to train our own docs so we can exert quality control over the educational process. That doesn't mean that some schools like SGU and Ross don't provide a similar curriculum to US schools, but there are definitely Caribbean schools out there that are dodgy and aren't training the students with nearly the same rigor/standards as US schools, which actually takes tremendous resources.

At the same time AAMC has been strongly suggesting US schools increase their enrollments (and the schools have been doing that) there isn't a similar push to increase residency spots. Also, US hospitals aren't going to just create residencies as was suggested above - residents ARE cheap labor but supervising and trying to provide some sort of education for them is very expensive so that having them isn't necessarily a great way for hospitals to save money. Hospitals can't just decide to create residency programs either...they have to get accreditation, Medicare funding to pay for them, etc. It's not a simple process.

US DO's might very well just expand their residencies to create more spots for their students - this would be reasonable to do since they too are increasing their class sizes. US allopathic residency slots also might expand, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do increase in the next 10 years or so, but basically they are funded by Medicare so I don't see that happening in the next 2-3 years with our current economic recession. If residencies do expand, it's likely to be IM and fp (due to the gov't seeing a need for primary care docs) so that some US and IMG/FMG students will be forced into those residencies even if primary care wasn't their original career goal.

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Neurosurgery in general has a very small group of doctors so it has nothing to do with the Caribbean schools or any school at all. The number of currently practicing neurosurgeon in the U.S is less than 4000. Now, that is small. Now about your statement about general surgery being less competitive.......I dont understand what you mean when you said "less competitve general surgery". Any field of medicine is competitive...especially with surgical fields since it poses a greater amount of risk in terms of riskful operations. If you have a strong interest in medicine, I think you should consider schools that gives you the option., also making sure that the school has a good reputation. After medical school, its really about you and not your IV league or what not education ( that is irrelevant in medical education).....you along side other medical doctors will be referred to as MDs ..........there is no carribean MDS or U.S MDs....doctors are doctors....your interest with treating people is what matters the most. In terms of carribean matching into neurosurgery or other competitive field., the numbers are constatntly growing...most reidencies will not discriminate btw carribean or U.S MDs, although keep in mind that as a foreign educated you want to stand out than the American counterparts.

Plus most carribean schools that are well recognized have top notch visiting physicians and educated physicians from the states as part of their faculty ...you are getting the same education as everyne else. And about carribean school going down because of increase enrollment.....well established ones wouldnt....even AAMC recognizes the importance of this schools in taking on the shortage of physicians. The schools have been on for a long time and well known by the medical boards and residency programs.

 

[Handy388]

Well, it will go away but not in the manner the prior poster thinks. Currently US allo schools are increasing enrollment, but the number of residencies are not increasing. In a couple of years, the number of US students will equal the number of US residency slots (one of the long stated goals of the AAMC). After that point there will be no stigma for caribbean schools because all those schools will rapidly disappear.

perhaps then we'll see a tiered ranking structure of schools where the lower tier USMDs go to programs previousily filled by DOs and FMGs.

 

[Guinea]

Mostly, as Law2Doc said, they still won't be under the watchful eye of the LCME so regardless of how competitive they become, their training still won't be on par with and privy to the same regulations as the US med schools. Having students with good numbers is one thing- having the LCME dictate how to train their students is quite another. Residency directors will still prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't.

Is education monopoly and monotony really that wonderful? Look at the magic our financial oversight body has done for the US. Hypothetically, I'd rather that 50% of a population receive an "in retrospect sub-par, overrated education," than 100%. Kind of like the no good bank problem we have right now.

 

[All In MD]

yes, that's exactly what I mean. No available residency slots, no reason for these schools to exist.

13 years later and you are still wrong

 

[valid username]

(1) You will get your chance. By this, I mean that many students who could not, for whatever reason, get an acceptance into a U.S. school - or, who chose not to play the AMCAS game (which is rare, granted - but I've met a few, myself included) - will get a quality, Western-medicine based medical education that will provide a good foundation for when you get back to the U.S.

Thanks for necrobump. I learned something interesting about Skip Intro.
Skip, why did you not play the AMCAS game? At my recent interview I was actually asked this question.

For me, it was multifactorial, but most definitely not because of low scores.
1)I didn't realize how much it mattered. I had so much other work history that I didn't realize this would be so different than other interview processes where a person is judged primarily on who they are, then secondarily by all other factors.
2)I couldn't afford it. I'm a nontraditional with a family. Nobody but Ross offered to get me started without spending even one dollar. (And I really didn't see an American school wanting anything to do with a mom with a houseful of kids!)

So why did you bypass AMCAS? I haven't met anyone else who didn't give it a serious try.

 

[Skip Intro]

Skip, why did you not play the AMCAS game? At my recent interview I was actually asked this question.

Whoa... thread necromancy...

Interesting to see something I wrote 15-and-a-half years ago resurrected!! Think about that for a second... #mindblown. What is more interesting is that I haven't changed that much as a person. I still stand by a lot of what I said originally, although my blood (and skin) has gotten a little thicker and I'm better able to tolerate, among a lot of other things, cold weather.

As to your question, I was at the point I began this thread already a "non-traditional" student. I was (perish the thought) over the age of 30. I was working full-time in a not-completely-fulfilling career getting ready to hit the glass ceiling. I simply did not want to continue to postpone school to go through a cycle of AMCAS application and further waiting without any guarantees.

Nowadays would this be a wise choice? NO!

There are about (by my last count) 23 new or expanded medical universities issuing either the M.D. or D.O. degree in the U.S. since I enrolled. Overall enrollment is up at the already-established schools. Among other minor ones (e.g., how the MCAT is scored), this has been the biggest change since I made my decision to go Carib. Also, the vast majority of you are not over thirty-years-old, have much more time to pursue this dream, and do not have the limitation of choices that someone (like myself) that I did.

There were also other personal/philosophical reasons that, for instance, I chose not to pursue an osteopathic degree that don't need to be discussed here. But, suffice it to say that times have changed - in the favor of the matriculant - since I attended Ross. I would highly suggest that the wannabe-student exhaust all options in the U.S. before going to the Caribbean, including - yes - playing the AMCAS "game."

Good luck and caveat emptor.

-Skip