MWU-AZ vs. Other School + AEGD vs. Other school and NO AEGD

[AONLINE]

I loved MWU on my interview but no it's not worth what they are trying to charge.

Don’t you go to Columbia? How much does it cost you, including cost of living in NYC?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Did they tell you how much it will cost next year if you get in and accept?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

View attachment 291514

Big Hoss

That should be the first question the applicants should ask at every interview.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[artist2022]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a single state school today that runs under 200k post interest (maybe Texas). Most state schools are flirting with 300k or soon will be and some are already more than 300k. Sadly, leaving dental school with a reasonable debt load will be a privilege of students with rich parents.

Agreed. UCLA, with eveeerything included, is just about 350k post interest. This is housing, tuition, parking, loupes, dental kits, and misc stuff. Not health insurance though.... with that, it comes to about 367k.

** used exact interest for D1 and D2, and roughly 6.5% for direct and 7.5% for grad PLUS for D3 & D4 **

Your state School would run you half of this.

Not always Only two state schools here and I would imagine they're relatively/roughly the same price (equally expensive to live in SF as it is to live in LA?), and they're already at/past 350k...

Just realized I didn't account for increases in tuition I'm sadder now. UCLA was the cheapest school I got into, having only attended SoCal interviews, and 350k still scares me a ton. And then there's USC and NYU and the MWUs which are upwards of 600k... geez

this is depressing... I thought I was doing great lmao

 

[ToothJockey]

Agreed. UCLA, with eveeerything included, is just about 350k post interest. This is housing, tuition, parking, loupes, dental kits, and misc stuff. Not health insurance though.... with that, it comes to about 367k.

** used exact interest for D1 and D2, and roughly 6.5% for direct and 7.5% for grad PLUS for D3 & D4 **

Not always Only two state schools here and I would imagine they're relatively/roughly the same price (equally expensive to live in SF as it is to live in LA?), and they're already at/past 350k...

Just realized I didn't account for increases in tuition I'm sadder now. UCLA was the cheapest school I got into, having only attended SoCal interviews, and 350k still scares me a ton. And then there's USC and NYU and the MWUs which are upwards of 600k... geez

this is depressing... I thought I was doing great lmao

You’re still doing great compared to the expensive private school grads who will owe almost double what you owe.

600k in student loans means big payments for a long time. That same amount of money invested into the stock market makes you a multi millionaire eventually. It’s not only about the debt, it’s what you could do with that money that matters. At the end of the day the difference between a grad with 0 debt and 600k debt is not 600k, its millions of dollars because the grad with 0 debt can go and invest all that extra money he has. The grad with 0 debt will be worth low 7 figures by the time he’s 40-50. The grad with 600k debt will he lucky to have his net worth above 0 by that same timeframe.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[P7898]

Agreed. UCLA, with eveeerything included, is just about 350k post interest. This is housing, tuition, parking, loupes, dental kits, and misc stuff. Not health insurance though.... with that, it comes to about 367k.

** used exact interest for D1 and D2, and roughly 6.5% for direct and 7.5% for grad PLUS for D3 & D4 **

Not always Only two state schools here and I would imagine they're relatively/roughly the same price (equally expensive to live in SF as it is to live in LA?), and they're already at/past 350k...

Just realized I didn't account for increases in tuition I'm sadder now. UCLA was the cheapest school I got into, having only attended SoCal interviews, and 350k still scares me a ton. And then there's USC and NYU and the MWUs which are upwards of 600k... geez

this is depressing... I thought I was doing great lmao

Did you factor in compounding interest? It seems like it would be $400k

 

[artist2022]

Did you factor in compounding interest? It seems like it would be $400k

Yeah I did. Comes out to like 348K if I remember correctly. I just didn't account for tuition increases :/ I used my exact "billed" amounts for my D1 and D2 years (exact tuition and 6.6/6.08/7.6/7.08 for interest) and then estimated for D3 & D4.

 

[P7898]

Yeah I did. Comes out to like 348K if I remember correctly. I just didn't account for tuition increases :/ I used my exact "billed" amounts for my D1 and D2 years (exact tuition and 6.6/6.08/7.6/7.08 for interest) and then estimated for D3 & D4.

Yeah tuition increases at some places are insane.

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah I did. Comes out to like 348K if I remember correctly. I just didn't account for tuition increases :/ I used my exact "billed" amounts for my D1 and D2 years (exact tuition and 6.6/6.08/7.6/7.08 for interest) and then estimated for D3 & D4.

Tuition increases are about 4% every year for each year of the program.

Also, factor in the 6 months grace period from graduation to first job that interest is accruing.... typically adds $15-20k to your loan $400k loan balance, and will increase your monthly loan repayment by about $50-100.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wengerout]

Don’t you go to Columbia? How much does it cost you, including cost of living in NYC?

I do, and I am likely going to come out of school with about 250k of loans or so

 

[wengerout]

Did they tell you how much it will cost next year if you get in and accept?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I interviewed at MWU like 3.5 year ago lol, if I recall they did say cost goes up around 5% each year though

 

[ToothJockey]

Tuition increases are about 4% every year for each year of the program.

Also, factor in the 6 months grace period from graduation to first job that interest is accruing.... typically adds $15-20k to your loan $400k loan balance, and will increase your monthly loan repayment by about $50-100.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Another thing I wanna note is, the more expensive the base tuition is, the more exepensive that annual 4% increase is gonna be. It's obvious math but maybe it's math some pre-dents might be glancing over.

And this is also why schools that are already expensive will get more expensive at a higher rate. A 4% overall increase on a 500k school is 20k whereas a 4% increase on a 300k school is 12k. Then next cycle you are looking at a 4% increase on 520k vs a 4% increase on 312k, as you see over time the gap keeps widening.....

 

[Cold Front]

Another thing I wanna note is, the more expensive the base tuition is, the more exepensive that annual 4% increase is gonna be. It's obvious math but maybe it's math some pre-dents might be glancing over.

And this is also why schools that are already expensive will get more expensive at a higher rate. A 4% overall increase on a 500k school is 20k whereas a 4% increase on a 300k school is 12k. Then next cycle you are looking at a 4% increase on 520k vs a 4% increase on 312k, as you see over time the gap keeps widening.....

I agree. Dentists with higher student loans pay higher taxes to pay back those loans. All debt repayments are post-tax proceeds.

The current federal individual income tax law will expire in 4-5 years. So if you are a pre-dent TODAY, not only do you stand to be in a position to be in higher student loans (with compounding interest and tuition increases year to year), but will pay high income taxes in 2025 and beyond than today’s doctors - in addition to the taxes owed on the high student loan repayment. These are all numbers hiding within numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I agree. Dentists with higher student loans pay higher taxes to pay back those loans. All debt repayments are post-tax proceeds.

The current federal individual income tax law will expire in 4-5 years. So if you are a pre-dent TODAY, not only do you stand to be in a position to be in higher student loans (with compounding interest and tuition increases year to year), but will pay high income taxes in 2025 and beyond than today’s doctors - in addition to the taxes owed on the high student loan repayment. These are all numbers hiding within numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And they very likely will also be graduating during an economic recession so their earnings will be lower.

Big Hoss

 

[ToothJockey]

And they very likely will also be graduating during an economic recession so their earnings will be lower.

Big Hoss

Not to mention, dentistry never even recovered from the last recession lmao, and it's in for another paycut. Pre-2008, dentistry was probably one of the best careers out there, it made physicians jealous. Post-2008, oof...

We like to roast pharmacy on here, but atleast their income is trending upwards and they have half the debt we do (income to debt ratio on fleek). Dentistry is in sore need of a '80s style cleansing.

 

[artist2022]

Tuition increases are about 4% every year for each year of the program.

Also, factor in the 6 months grace period from graduation to first job that interest is accruing.... typically adds $15-20k to your loan $400k loan balance, and will increase your monthly loan repayment by about $50-100.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I looked at the fee schedule from last year to this year and UCLA only increased by 2%. I'm not going to calculate it out because my numbers are pretty different, but yeah either way even a state school like UCLA is already upwards of 350k, slowly creeping close to 400k. Very few state schools are "cheap" nowadays, even after accounting for any scholarships/grants...

 

[Cold Front]

And they very likely will also be graduating during an economic recession so their earnings will be lower.

Big Hoss

Absolutely. We are overdue for a recession - and that’s not good for anyone, including dentists. That will only create more medicaid patients, and fewer private insurance and FFS patients. There are a lot of Americans working at 2-3 jobs under a good economy, could you imagine what a recession would look like for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AONLINE]

We like to roast pharmacy on here, but atleast their income is trending upwards and they have half the debt we do (income to debt ratio on fleek).

Where do you get the info that pharmacy income is going upwards? Head over to the pharm forums, they will tell you that their income has been decreasing steadily in the past 5 years and over 50% of their new grads can't even find a job.

 

[Cold Front]

over 50% of their new grads can't even find a job.

That’s terrible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ToothJockey]

Where do you get the info that pharmacy income is going upwards? Head over to the pharm forums, they will tell you that their income has been decreasing steadily in the past 5 years and over 50% of their new grads can't even find a job.

The 2019 Pharmacist Salary Guide - The Happy PharmD

Sharing is Caring Alex BarkerAlex is the Founder of The Happy PharmD. He loves anime, his family, and video games, but not in that order.

www.thehappypharmd.com

This says their pay grew anywhere from .2% to 4.5% (depending on which source you use). Adjusting for inflation, their pay might actually decreasing, that's what the people on the pharmacy forums were probably talking about. However dentist pay is decreasing before you even adjust for inflation!!!

Let me remind you, tuition and house prices are rising ~5% a year. You know damn well that chipotle burrito ain't gonna be 8 bucks anymore in 10 years. Try double digits, and that's even before the guac.....

 

[TanMan]

Absolutely. We are overdue for a recession - and that’s not good for anyone, including dentists. That will only create more medicaid patients, and fewer private insurance and FFS patients. There are a lot of Americans working at 2-3 jobs under a good economy, could you imagine what a recession would look like for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2-3 jobs means secondary insurance

 

[Cold Front]

2-3 jobs means secondary insurance

Why would anyone pay more than 1 insurance (Even if they have multiple insurances)?. I only see that in medicaid programs + 1 private insurance - and it’s rare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TanMan]

Why would anyone pay more than 1 insurance (Even if they have multiple insurances)?. I only see that in medicaid programs + 1 private insurance - and it’s rare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some school districts, universities, and employers are generous. They get secondary insurance by default and have pretty much almost no out of pocket pay. I see it a lot with federal employees and couples with good employers.

 

[dmillie01]

It's been posted many times. The trend of high DS tuition is on the rise. Not sure what anyone can do about it. These schools will continue to exist as long as there are applicants with the $$$$ to attend there or those who can;t go anywere else. There will come a point when attending an uber expensive DS will not be a viable career choice. That time may have already arrived. Sure .... there will be those outlier stories of new dentists working in Alaska and paying off their debt in a few years lol. But come on man. Is EVERYONE with high DS debt going to be able to do whatever these outliers are doing?

You go to DS because you want to be a dentist. You pay alot of money and spend alot of irreplaceable time to become a dentist. After graduation .... it shouldn't require a miracle or to be an outlier to live an above average financially comfortable life working as a dentist.

Another reference. I practiced during a GREAT time (pre-2008) for dentists. I knew alot of general dentists (i.e begging for referrals). A few of them did great financially. Most led adequate lives. Nothing mind blowing, but comfortable, average lives. Again .... average dentists probably leased a 3 or 5 series BMW, lived in a nice home, and goes on nice vacations. Financially comfortable, but nothing mindblowing from a financial point of view. THESE DENTISTS HAD LOW DS TUITION AND PRACTICED DURING A TIME WITH VERY FEW CORPS AND LITTLE SATURATION. And they lived "average" financial lives. How does this compare to the new dentists graduating with high DS debt and saturation?

Predents. Be smart. If you cannot attend a DS with reasonable debt .... then dentistry is not for you. That's the reality of these times. If you choose to push through regardless ..... well ..... unless you're one of those unicorn outliers .... you will be living a life of debt servitude. Do the math. The math has already been posted here many times.

So where do I go then? I have been accepted to 2 private dental schools. Waitlisted at state school but it is unlikely that I will come off that list. I understand the numbers and the payments and all that. But I don't know what else I will do. What do I do with my biology degree? Or do I go get another degree? I am very smart and capable. Dentistry is cool but I am in it at this point to make good money and have a good lifestyle. If you are saying that that is not possible for the average dentist then what do I do?

 

[Cold Front]

So where do I go then? I have been accepted to 2 private dental schools. Waitlisted at state school but it is unlikely that I will come off that list. I understand the numbers and the payments and all that. But I don't know what else I will do. What do I do with my biology degree? Or do I go get another degree? I am very smart and capable. Dentistry is cool but I am in it at this point to make good money and have a good lifestyle. If you are saying that that is not possible for the average dentist then what do I do?

You probably posted this somewhere else - how much do the schools that you were accepted into charge? Total cost of attendance + compounding interest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dmillie01]

You probably posted this somewhere else - how much do the schools that you were accepted into charge? Total cost of attendance + compounding interest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry I didn't mean what school should I go to lol. I meant if it is stupid to go to dental school for 550K, then what do people wish they did instead? I've seen people talk about how there are plenty of jobs out there that can make you 6 figures with only a bachelors degree, what are these jobs? I can think of software engineering maybe but I can't imagine there being many other options for jobs that pay a 6 figure entry level salary.

My question is if not dentistry, then what else should I do?

 

[Cold Front]

Sorry I didn't mean what school should I go to lol. I meant if it is stupid to go to dental school for 550K, then what do people wish they did instead? I've seen people talk about how there are plenty of jobs out there that can make you 6 figures with only a bachelors degree, what are these jobs? I can think of software engineering maybe but I can't imagine there being many other options for jobs that pay a 6 figure entry level salary.

My question is if not dentistry, then what else should I do?

Whatever the job/profession, you still have to think income to debt ratio. It’s getting very expensive to become a dentist, far more expensive than any other profession in the labor market. But with business skills + the right personality + dentistry = you should be in the top 1-2% of society by income.

You Can Now Make $100,000 Working at Taco Bell

Wanted: Restaurant manager. Competitive salary: $100,000.

www.bloomberg.com

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ToothJockey]

Sorry I didn't mean what school should I go to lol. I meant if it is stupid to go to dental school for 550K, then what do people wish they did instead? I've seen people talk about how there are plenty of jobs out there that can make you 6 figures with only a bachelors degree, what are these jobs? I can think of software engineering maybe but I can't imagine there being many other options for jobs that pay a 6 figure entry level salary.

My question is if not dentistry, then what else should I do?

You don't have to quit on dentistry. If the schools you got into cost 550k+, then you can always make your application better and reapply to your state schools next cycle.

But to answer your question, read this article.

How To Make Six Figures A Year At Almost Any Age

If you want to make six-figures, know that you can if you want to. Nothing in this world is stopping you with the right money mindset to get rich. I'll teach you how to make six figures a year at almost any age. I believe $250,000 is the ideal six-figure income for an individual for maximum

www.financialsamurai.com

There are TONS of professions where you make much more money than you think. Since you're so far down the healthcare/biology path, you can become a CRNA, PA, go to Med school.....there are nurses in rural areas that make more than dentists in urban areas. Many paths to make 6 figures.....you don't have to limit yourself to dentistry at 550k.

 

[2TH MVR]

Sorry I didn't mean what school should I go to lol. I meant if it is stupid to go to dental school for 550K, then what do people wish they did instead? I've seen people talk about how there are plenty of jobs out there that can make you 6 figures with only a bachelors degree, what are these jobs? I can think of software engineering maybe but I can't imagine there being many other options for jobs that pay a 6 figure entry level salary.

My question is if not dentistry, then what else should I do?

We realize it is hard at your level to comprehend future debt to income ratio. Sometimes you get so caught up in the JOURNEY that you lose sight of the real reason you're in school. To get a good paying profession..
You cannot control the escalating DS costs. You cannot control the dental market being flooded with Dental Corps. You cannot control the undeniable truth that there is more dentist saturation in the major desirable cities.

Like everything in life associated with money ..... the best students get accepted to the least expensive schools. The people with the good credit scores get the best financial arrangements. That's the financial reality of life. Unfortunately there are always those people or consumers who wants something (too big of a home, Ferrari, Audis, Alfa Romeos, (not Teslas ... hehe ) to be a dentist, etc. etc. ........ but are not technically qualified to obtain that item in a financially responsible way.

For predents. Start reasearching your ability to get into a cheaper, in-state DS now. Start researching this stuff in undergrad well before you apply to DS. Many of you reading SDN are doing this now. If it is obvious to yourself that you will not have the stats to gain acceptance into a reasonably priced DS .... then you have TIME to consider a different career choice.

As for that DS debt. Well you've heard comments like do not go to DS if your debt is higher than 200K. Not sure it is realistic to get into many DS at less than 200K. Keep your debt around 300K and most of you will do fine. 500K and higher. Well .... all these threads are directed at YOU and the consequences.

Long term debt servitude will suck all the passion of being a dentist from you in a very short time. Debt servitude will affect all your future financial arrangements and even your family.

 

[P7898]

You don't have to quit on dentistry. If the schools you got into cost 550k+, then you can always make your application better and reapply to your state schools next cycle.

But to answer your question, read this article.

How To Make Six Figures A Year At Almost Any Age

If you want to make six-figures, know that you can if you want to. Nothing in this world is stopping you with the right money mindset to get rich. I'll teach you how to make six figures a year at almost any age. I believe $250,000 is the ideal six-figure income for an individual for maximum

www.financialsamurai.com

There are TONS of professions where you make much more money than you think. Since you're so far down the healthcare/biology path, you can become a CRNA, PA, go to Med school.....there are nurses in rural areas that make more than dentists in urban areas. Many paths to make 6 figures.....you don't have to limit yourself to dentistry at 550k.

Going back to everything being an investment. Emotional ties are not a sound investment always.

 

[Kenshin_Med]

anesthesiology assistant is a nice gig for a two year program. I know some individuals who are making around 200k fresh out of school.

 

[ToothJockey]

ADA/BLS should start listing dental incomes after 50k a year debt service

Application #'s gonna drop faster than my grades last semester lmfao

 

[Cold Front]

anesthesiology assistant is a nice gig for a two year program. I know some individuals who are making around 200k fresh out of school.

Retail and fast food chains store managers make $100-400k a year.

Chipotle: $95k
Taco Bell: $100k
Target: $200k
Costco: $200k
Walmart $300k

Demand is very high for those jobs. No student loans and income potential loss for 8-12 years in school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kenshin_Med]

Retail and fast food chains store managers make $100-400k a year.

Chipotle: $95k
Taco Bell: $100k
Target: $200k
Costco: $200k
Walmart $300k

Demand is very high for those jobs. No student loans and income potential loss for 8-12 years in school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So many ways to make a great living. Dentistry is cool and all, but life has a lot to offer. I apologize to OP for going off topic.

 

[Cold Front]

So many ways to make a great living. Dentistry is cool and all, but life has a lot to offer. I apologize to OP for going off topic.

Absolutely. Dentistry is a small world in a big world. If I didn’t become a dentist, I would still make a good income doing something else - specially under the current economic climate. One of my neighbors is in the mulch business and his company has an annual gross revenue of $75M a year - albeit, he started the business in his late teens, he’s in his late 50’s now. Early planing in life and business is essential to future success.

I think parents don’t raise their kids to be business minded, but more of a specific trade minded. If all dental schools had a 1 year of business school requirement - there wouldn’t be dental corporations and associate positions would be rare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[deleted903013]

I remember reading about a history phd a while back who couldn't find any employment upon graduation. He then went to trade school and made a killing. There's definitely more than just dentistry out there.

 

[2TH MVR]

If all dental schools had a 1 year of business school requirement - there wouldn’t be dental corporations and associate positions would be rare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Most people going into dentistry/medicine don't strike me as the business entrepreneur types.

 

[Cold Front]

I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Most people going into dentistry/medicine don't strike me as the business entrepreneur types.

True. In a utopian world, such pre-requisite would mean fewer of those people becoming dentists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[schmoob]

IT jobs with security clearances pay very well. Once you get the clearance you become much more in demand.

 

[ToothJockey]

I would argue student loans are the #1 reason for the rise of less business minded dentists. It’s one thing to take a risk opening a business when you’re 100k in debt, it’s another when you’re 500k in debt. In the past most dentists became small business owners. Corps wouldn’t be so strong right now if it wasn’t for student loans handicapping future dentists.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[2TH MVR]

I would argue student loans are the #1 reason for the rise of less business minded dentists. It’s one thing to take a risk opening a business when you’re 100k in debt, it’s another when you’re 500k in debt. In the past most dentists became small business owners. Corps wouldn’t be so strong right now if it wasn’t for student loans handicapping future dentists.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Agree. When I graduated from residency (1993) there were very few dental corps. I remember my colleagues and I used to laugh at them and at anyone who used to work for them. Back then .... almost EVERYONE who graduated from dental school went into private practice. Those were special times.

Now it is different. Dental Corps are everywhere. Young dentists strapped with heavy DS debt cannot resist the easy available jobs awaiting them in Corp.

You can blame the Corps, but as you've posted many times ..... the blame starts with the high DS debt. The dental corp movement was going to happen regardless of high DS debt.

 

[Cold Front]

The dental corp movement was going to happen regardless of high DS debt.

High DS debt exacerbated the rise of corporations. Low DS debt would have increased solo practice ownership - because current young dentists would prefer to own their own practice (like in 1993) than work for a corporation today - if they carried less DS debt. However, we have seen a strong relationship between High DS debt and a decline of solo practice ownership - which means the opposite relationship would have been true.

I think corporations doubled down their efforts to proliferate nationwide once they’ve seen the rise in High DS tuition and fees. Even though cost of DS goes up 4-5% a year on average, corporations have grown 14% year to year in the past decade. Corporations will continue to grown even if DS froze their tuition and fees today, because the debt would still be high relative to income. It’s like almost comparing the rise of 1 degree in temperature and it’s effects on global climate - or an increase of 1 ft in sea levels and it’s effects on communities living on the coasts. Maybe a bit of an extreme analogy, but increase in DS cost will be more fuel for corporations growth, and a shrinking solo practice ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[charlestweed]

Retail and fast food chains store managers make $100-400k a year.

Chipotle: $95k
Taco Bell: $100k
Target: $200k
Costco: $200k
Walmart $300k

Demand is very high for those jobs. No student loans and income potential loss for 8-12 years in school.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the demand is so high for these manager jobs, then why only 20% of the people in the US earn 6-figure incomes?....why so many people are living paycheck-to-paycheck? .....why so many college graduates can't find jobs and have to move back home to live with their parents?

For these store managers to get this good paying job, they have to have great leadership and communication skills. They probably had to work at the bottom levels for several years (probably much longer than 4 years of college and 4 years of dental school) before they could get promoted to the store manager positions. And if they don't perform well, they will get replaced. And the chance for them to find another job with similar pay is very slim.

Being a shy introvert person, I don't think I would be qualified for these high paying manager jobs. Dentistry is a much safer route for me.

 

[ToothJockey]

And as Cold Front has said before, the growth of corporations are at the point of no return. Even if all dental school debt was erased, at this point there's no stopping corps from growing.

 

[Cold Front]

If the demand is so high for these manager jobs, then why only 20% of the people in the US earn 6-figure incomes?....why so many people are living paycheck-to-paycheck? .....why so many college graduates can't find jobs and have to move back home to live with their parents?

For these store managers to get this good paying job, they have to have great leadership and communication skills. They probably had to work at the bottom levels for several years (probably much longer than 4 years of college and 4 years of dental school) before they could get promoted to the store manager positions. And if they don't perform well, they will get replaced. And the chance for them to find another job with similar pay is very slim.

Being a shy introvert person, I don't think I would be qualified for these high paying manager jobs. Dentistry is a much safer route for me.

20% of Americans make 6 figure income or more because - it’s not that the jobs are not available, but the people don’t have the skills for those jobs. Same reason why there are many dentist jobs at $150k a year open - but not enough dentists filling them. A lot of companies train their recruits in-house (no higher education required - with big student loans), and give those trained employees 6 figure jobs. The country is short of skilled labor, we are hiring people from overseas for 6 figure jobs. Unemployment is 3.5% - there is a shortage of labor for all type of jobs and industries - more jobs at sub-$100k/yr will eventually become $100k/yr. Also, with baby boomers retiring in high numbers - a lot of 6 figure jobs will open up. My brother’s anesthesiologist group has about 50 doctors, 7 will retire this month.

The Median household income is also rising - about $60k in 2017, and its now $65k/yr. We will see close to $100k/yr median household income in our lifetime. But I doubt we will see average dentist making $300-350k a year for the same period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[charlestweed]

20% of Americans make 6 figure income or more because - it’s not that the jobs are not available, but the people don’t have the skills for those jobs. Same reason why there are many dentist jobs at $150k a year open - but not enough dentists filling them. A lot of companies train their recruits in-house (no higher education required - with big student loans), and give those trained employees 6 figure jobs. The country is short of skilled labor, we are hiring people from overseas for 6 figure jobs. Unemployment is 3.5% - there is a shortage of labor for all type of jobs and industries - more jobs at sub-$100k/yr will eventually become $100k/yr. Also, with baby boomers retiring in high numbers - a lot of 6 figure jobs will open up. My brother’s anesthesiologist group has about 50 doctors, 7 will retire this month.

This is why dentistry is still a safer route for long term financial security. Not everybody has the right skills to become a store manager and earn a 6-figure income. With a DDS degree and the skills you had acquired during your dental school years, you are guaranteed a 6-figure job for the rest of your life.

Some of the SDN students have claimed that the majority of their classmates have rich parents. If this is true, then the majority of the future dentists should be fine. And for some few unlucky new grad dentists who had to take out $500k student loans, if they continue to live like a poor student for the next 2-3 years (like their classmates who continue their educations for ortho, perio, OS, endo etc), they can easily cut their student loans in half....and they will be $2.5-3k richer every month. That's what I did. I reduced the the student loans in half in just 2-3 years by paying the off the smaller loans first and not the ones with the highest interest rate first. This wasn't my idea. Dave Ramsey, whom I recently became a fan of, has always preached this. But I did this long before I heard about him and it has worked out nicely for me. With the extra $5+k every month that I didn't have to pay back the student loans, I started investing in rental properties. And I repeated the same steps..... I paid off the property with the smallest loan balance first. Now, I am working on paying off the last property, which is my house, and hopefully, become 100% debt-free before my 49th birthday.

The Median household income is also rising - about $60k in 2017, and its now $65k/yr. We will see close to $100k/yr median household income in our lifetime. But I doubt we will see average dentist making $300-350k a year for the same period.

When economy is good and the median household income goes up, dentists' income will also go up. People will have more money to spend on their dental health. Today dentists make almost twice as much as what dentists in the 90s made.

 

[Cold Front]

When economy is good and the median household income goes up, dentists' income will also go up. People will have more money to spend on their dental health. Today dentists make almost twice as much as what dentists in the 90s made.

Majority of dentists rely heavily (overwhelmingly) on dental insurances for their paychecks and profits. Dental insurance reimbursement fees have been stagnant (with a lot more red tapes) and are still lagging inflation and median household income.

Also, the majority of dental insurances are shifting to lower and cheaper plans. Medicaid is the fastest growing insurance plan in the country, and will be for sometime. More employees are opting for cheaper dental insurance plans, which require higher deductibles and have less covered plans; I.e. HMO/DMO plans. It’s part of the bigger cost cutting trend and agenda for employers to reduce expenses. Employees are also opting less money deducted from their paychecks for their medical and dental insurances. Also, Medicare population is rising at a steep rate, and there is no dental coverage with Medicare.

The good news; majority of people in the labor market today are females, and they are more likely to see a dentist than males. However, the insurance conundrum still remains as the cancer to the future of dentists income. Hence dental corporations who accept dental insurances with lowest reimbursement are growing the fastest of all other DSO’s. Dentists will be have to work 2-3x than today in the future to increase their income.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ToothJockey]

Some good discussion going on here. As Charles said, dental income has doubled since the 90s which sounds pretty good, the only problem with that statement though is that all the income gains were from 90s-2008. After 2008, dental income has actually decreased...

As Cold Front said, median income is rising due to inflation. In about 20 years (~ 2040), the median household income will be around 100k. That means 50% of people will be making 100k+. The average engineer with a 4 year degree will probably be making well over 150k+. A dentist income doesn't look so rosy now does it?

That being said, I think dental income will inevitably have to increase as per the laws of supply and demand. No one wants to go through 8+ years of tough dental education to make less than people with a 4 year degree, so application #'s will tank and the supply of dentists will be below the demand for dentists. I believe the dental market will correct itself eventually but I could be wrong.

 

[NMC2010]

Hello Everyone,

Before I ask my question, a little back-story:

I got accepted into MWU-AZ. I have no desire to specialize and only want to go into general dentistry. For those that are unfamiliar with the program, it is a private school that is from what I've seen, one of, if not THE most advanced dental schools in the country. The school was opened a little over 10 years ago and they have all of the latest tech for students to use and learn. They also do not have any speciality programs, so when complicated cases come in requiring something like an implant or bone grafting, they have their DMD students do it instead of one of their speciality students. Students at this school also seem to do a substantially higher amount of procedures/cases than students at other schools and the school also allows you to get certified in a bunch of different things such as Invisalign before graduating, which I haven't seen at any of the other schools I have interviewed at offer. Not going to lie, their sales pitch did blow me away. That being said, their COA blew me away too

*My parents will pay for everything so I will not pay any interest or have any loans. Flat out, it should cost us about $500k over 4 years ($10,500/ month). This is including tuition increases and living expenses.*

I talked to recent grads from OSU, NYU, and CWRU during my shadowing experiences and they all told me AEGD's are essential as schools don't train you enough clinically and they don't feel prepared enough to tackle things on their own. However, after touring MWU, I really don't think anyone from here would need to pursue an AEGD if they made the most of their experience.

Now for my QUESTION:

Do you believe the higher tuition would be worth it? Is it worth paying around $120k more for the 4 years, but then going straight into corporate dentistry and making $120-150k instead of doing a AEGD? Or would you rather go to the cheaper school, and then spend an additional year (of lost income) doing an AEGD? Orrrrr would you just do 4 years at a cheaper state school and then go straight into corporate dentistry and learn/ gain experience on corp's dime while also making $120-150k??

My goal is to own my own clinic 2-3 years out of dental school and I want to be the most knowledgable dentist possible so I can take on as many cases as I can. Basically I'm just looking for guidance on what path would make me the best dentist while also being the most cost-effective.

Any input or opinions would be greatly appreciated

I attended OSU college of dentistry. I liked OSU, but we had a disadvantage as dental students, given that we had almost every specialty here, and the specialty work was given to those programs. I placed zero implants. I never cut a flap. I never did crown lengthening, molar endo (I did do some on externship), surgical extraction, a bridge, restored an implant crown, CAD/CAM, etc.

I opted to do an AEGD-1 with the Army and learned how to do all of that, and it was totally worth it. That being said, I had a peer from Midwestern-AZ, and he knew and had already done a ton more than I had. I think he would have been fine without the residency, truth be told. He did learn some extra skills here that he didn't get in school, and I think those were very useful to him. But still, he had way more knowledge than I did.

If I were you, and I attended Midwestern AZ, I wouldn't do a residency - just based on seeing the guy I knew. But the cost is substantial, and I would personally encourage anyone that has the opportunity to go the military route. I love it here, and have gotten fantastic mentorship with zero debt.

So I'd say just go straight into practice if you do Midwestern AZ. The cost is worth it, and if your family is paying, and you don't have the debt / interest to worry about, it's a no brainer.

 

[ASPEN'S NIGHTMARE]

I attended OSU college of dentistry. I liked OSU, but we had a disadvantage as dental students, given that we had almost every specialty here, and the specialty work was given to those programs. I placed zero implants. I never cut a flap. I never did crown lengthening, molar endo (I did do some on externship), surgical extraction, a bridge, restored an implant crown, CAD/CAM, etc.

I opted to do an AEGD-1 with the Army and learned how to do all of that, and it was totally worth it. That being said, I had a peer from Midwestern-AZ, and he knew and had already done a ton more than I had. I think he would have been fine without the residency, truth be told. He did learn some extra skills here that he didn't get in school, and I think those were very useful to him. But still, he had way more knowledge than I did.

If I were you, and I attended Midwestern AZ, I wouldn't do a residency - just based on seeing the guy I knew. But the cost is substantial, and I would personally encourage anyone that has the opportunity to go the military route. I love it here, and have gotten fantastic mentorship with zero debt.

So I'd say just go straight into practice if you do Midwestern AZ. The cost is worth it, and if your family is paying, and you don't have the debt / interest to worry about, it's a no brainer.

That was so helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out for me man, it really means so much!

I had a feeling OSU did that based off of how many specialty programs they have! It’s good to hear things from someone who’s gone through it instead of just assuming! Thank you for that!

I was also thinking the same thing as you. If I attend MWU, going to an AEGD is not an option. The cost of MWU is so high, a pricey AEGD + 1 year of lost income on top is not really feasible.

*****I have a follow-up question for you: *****

Some people on this thread have made the counter argument that all of the extra skills and experience gained from MWU can be picked up in 1 year of practicing real dentistry.

Therefore, they argue that it’s better to go somewhere like OSU and then pick things up as you practice.

That makes sense to me.

BUT, what I’m kinda confused about, is how do you learn those things, for example you said; cutting a flap, bridges, CAD/CAM, etc. WHILE practicing on patients/ when you’ve NEVER done it before???

Are all of you who didn’t learn these things in school just doing CE’s to learn this as time goes on? Or are you teaching yourself while practicing on patients

On top of this, I forget where, but I was reading a thread of dentists discussing Invisalign CE’s a while back saying the CE wasn’t enough and they still don’t feel comfortable/ knowledgeable/ confident enough to do it on their patients. Have you ever been in a position where a CE did not prepare you well enough to start preforming the procedure in practice?
—> How well a CE prepares you to handle real-world/ non-textbook cases is something I’ve really been stressing about when trying to answer this question. Confidence and Knowledge are huge imo. I don’t want to have to “guess” my way through my first few cases of a new-to-me procedure. Patients deserve better than that.

Thanks again for taking the time out to comment! I’ve been burning myself out ever since I posted this question looking into all kinds of things not normally mentioned in the pre-dent section like “% of class that went on to AEGD per school” and tax rules for dentistry (like how CE’s for new skills are no longer tax deductible beginning in 2018) etc etc. There are so many more factors involved that I never knew about! But what you said really helps clear things up a bit more. Thank You