More and more programs using SOAP to fill

[TheWallnerus]

Quick question, hope you don't mind me asking. Expanding the number of trainees in radiation oncology: Has the pendulum swung too far?

The PENDULUM has swung too far and the hell PITs will pay a price *evil laugh*

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The PENDULUM has swung too far and the hell PITs will pay a price *evil laugh*

Hell pit warm body matching soap avoiding places will hear a heart under the floor which will haunt them all day

 

[Mandelin Rain]

So... matching about 160?

Puts on job prospects.

 

[medgator]

So the moral of the story is that, if a program wants to avoid SOAPing (you just know that most of these programs will end up SOAPing), they should remain committed to interviewing the "worst quality" candidates possible.

Potters probably had a good algorithm for his succuss

 

[TheWallnerus]

Hell pit warm body matching soap avoiding places will hear a heart under the floor which will haunt them all day

THE SOAPer


Once upon a Monday dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious PTV of forgotten lore—
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some SOAPer,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more.”

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak "Matchember";
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;—vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost rad onc of yore—
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Radmore—
Nameless here for evermore.

And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me—filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
“’Tis some SOAPer entreating entrance at my chamber door—
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;—
This it is and nothing more.”

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
“He/him,” said I, “or she/her, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you”—here I opened wide the door;—
Darkness there and nothing more.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, “Radmore?”
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, “Radmore!”—
Merely this and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
“Surely,” said I, “surely that is something at my Windows PC;
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore—
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;—
’Tis the wind and nothing more!”

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Student of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door—
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door—
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this AOA MD/PhD beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
“Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,” I said, “art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Student wandering from the Nightly shore—
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore!”
Quoth the Student “Radmore.”

Much I marvelled this ungainly nerd to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing a superstar above his chamber door—
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as “Radmore.”

But the gunner, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing farther then he uttered—not a first authorship then he fluttered—
Till I scarcely more than muttered “Other friends have matched before—
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before.”
Then the nerd said “Radmore.”

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
“Doubtless,” said I, “what it utters is its only stock and store
Caught from some unhappy Wallner whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore—
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
Of ‘Rad... Radmore’.”

But the Student still beguiling all my fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of him, and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous undiverse genius of yore—
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous genius of yore
Meant in croaking “Radmore.”

This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the future fellow whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom’s core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion’s velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o’er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o’er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
“Wretch,” I cried, “thy God hath lent thee—by these angels he hath sent thee
Respite—respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Radmore;
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Radmore!”
Quoth the Jabin “Nevermore.”

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if med onc or devil!—
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted—
On this home by Horror haunted—tell me truly, I implore—
Is there—is there silvadene in Gilead?—tell me—tell me, I implore!”
Quoth the Student “Nevermore.”

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if surg onc or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us—by that God we both adore—
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Radmore—
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Radmore.”
Quoth the madman “Nevermore.”

“Be that word our sign of parting, friend or fiend!” I shrieked, upstarting—
“Get thee back into the Match and the Night’s Plutonian shore!
Leave no #medgradwishlist as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy laryngoscope from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!”
Quoth the Student “Nevermore.”

And the SOAPer, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon’s that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o’er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted—nevermore!

 

[StIGMA]

There may be unfilled categorical spots. Total number could go to low 40s if PGY2 spot is 35

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Wow, we have plummeted to the very bottom. The answer would be to just walk away and not SOAP anyone but that’s too easy. I’ll await the comments how SDN was to blame for all of this and we just need to have high school kids do a rad onc rotation in order to gain interest in a field that use to have some of the best med students.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Emory went unmatched?

 

[TheWallnerus]

Now all that’s being done is a long term experiment to see if we can produce high levels of unemployment for graduating residents. Even then were that to happen I wouldn’t expect programs to shrink or there not to be students still wanting to SOAP into rad onc. Rad onc’s leaders are the Kanamits. They just want to serve people.

 

[seper]

Programs in competitive locales (e.g. NYC) have strong advantage. I interviewed people fro RadOnc who just wanted "a job" in a given region. Usually their partner was bringing an income.

Could be that they didn't lower expectations in creating ROL...the real question will be will they SOAP

 

[Gfunk6]

Now all that’s being done is a long term experiment to see if we can produce high levels of unemployment for graduating residents. Even then were that to happen I wouldn’t expect programs to shrink or there not to be students still wanting to SOAP into rad onc. Rad onc’s leaders are the Kanamits. They just want to serve people.

OK, I admit that this reference went over my head. However, upon looking it up I remembered that Twilight Zone episode: Kanamit

The comparison is very appropriate:

The Kanamits are nine foot tall sapient humanoids which claim to originate on a planet far beyond the galaxy and came to Earth to solve issues such as hunger to gain humanity's trust so they could eat them.

 

[RickyScott]

Specialty certainly seems to be diversifying. At least on twitter, very few white male medical students seems to be going into radonc.

 

[ramsesthenice]

So the moral of the story is that, if a program wants to avoid SOAPing (you just know that most of these programs will end up SOAPing), they should remain committed to interviewing the "worst quality" candidates possible.

Bingo. Pickins are slim and the math is simple: if your goal is to match all of your available spots you need to rank as many people as possible. Standards be damned.

 

[fiji128]

Bingo. Pickins are slim and the math is simple: if your goal is to match all of your available spots you need to rank as many people as possible. Standards be damned.

Rad Onc is joining Path at the bottom of the medical specialty hierarchy. All chairs think their program is great and nothing will change except the quality of applicants they can attract.

 

[FrostyHammer]

Specialty certainly seems to be diversifying. At least on twitter, very few white male medical students seems to be going into radonc.

Well I guess that the #RadOncDiversityPolice like Tyler Seibert are super happy at this year's match - because a good way to increase diversity is to scare off the white males!

 

[fiji128]

"Resident at a "trash tier" program here - we interviewed so many people this year with low Step scores, Step failures, med school professionalism issues and repeating years of med school, not to mention all the graduates from non-US medical schools (and I mean non-MD and non-DO)... and we matched! //...this seems trolly // ... trolly but true // same and we even had a few no shows of people with <200 steps and multiple retakes , visa issues // Resident at a mid-tier, we really over-interviewed this year bc why not, it was so easy this year w/ virtual. Interviewed a lot of folks who we'd never give a chance to otherwise, wanted to see if their on-paper shortcomings were just that, maybe find a diamond on the rough. We def ended up DNR most of those applicants though. Won't comment rn on whether we filled or not, but we didn't plan to take anyone we wouldn't be excited to have here."

Sounds like there were plenty of chances to load up on some diversity of something.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Rad Onc is joining Path at the bottom of the medical specialty hierarchy. All chairs think their program is great and nothing will change except the quality of applicants they can attract.

Well not get on too much of a high horse but I think we did it right this year. We did not change our standards. As a result we only ranked around 20 or so applicants and not surprisingly only filled 1/2 spots. I hope we stick to our guns and don't soap but I am not the PD or the chair so that is out of my hands at this point.

No one wants to go unmatched but lets face it, where we are at this point, the only mid tier programs outside of major metro areas that routinely go unmatched are going to be the ones who rank every living breathing person that applies to the program. All the chest thumping and self congratulating in the world won't change the fact they are not filling their spots based purely on the "strength of their program."

 

[Conn Seannery]

Specialty certainly seems to be diversifying. At least on twitter, very few white male medical students seems to be going into radonc.

I bet in a few years, some will accuse RadOnc of being a "dumping ground" for women and minorities.

 

[Radonc90]

Lol,

Where are the leaders? Anyone home?

---

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I remember seeing the cartoon as a medical student about the stereotype of all the medical specialties. Our field was literally am empty chair and someone saying “who?!”. Back then i did not realize how true it was, in many ways, “leaders”, field personalities and all, spot on.

 

[Radonc90]

So far on Twitter, I see quite a few MD-PhDs matching into radonc...
In a way, this is good, bc these smart people should be in the field...

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Emory went unmatched?

Yes, they only partially filled.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Here's the current unofficial (off the spreadsheet) list:

A couple of these are downright SHOCKING to me.

 

[Radonc90]

Out of the list above...

The programs that surprise me (they should have matched): Vandy, UVA, MCW and UNC are (to me) very decent programs.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Out of the list above...

The programs that surprise me (they should have matched): Vandy, UVA, MCW and UNC are (to me) very decent programs.

Incoming ASTRO President's program did not fill

 

[RickyScott]

Here's the current unofficial (off the spreadsheet) list:

View attachment 332584

A couple of these are downright SHOCKING to me.

They probably didn’t rank those with below average board scores or not published. Emory has too many spots.
I am more impressed by Arkansas, West Virginia Etc- they must know they are bottom of the barrel and ranked anything with a pulse, but still failed to match.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

The future of the field, folks.

 

[deleted941485]

HA! Crazy how times change

The SOAP letter etc was amazing, but since ppl didn’t listen we lost the window now for free market correction

Sad sad. It truly will depend on selflessness to fix, aka not gonna happen

That free market BS was never gonna happen. Anytime anyone starts spouting that nonsense its just short for I do not care.

 

[Radonc90]

LOL Simul,

In regrads to Simul's tweet...I miss the old days when the Chair/Service Chief had more control over hiring...

A person who trained in the 1980s told me when he took the ABR exam in Louisville around 1985 or so:
the examiner (from somewhere in Florida) liked him so much that the examiner said: "We have a position if you want to join us"...He ended up elsewhere but this was how business was conducted in the 1980s...basically over trust and likability and a hand shake.

Those days are gone...and as Simul said, it is an HR person looking at your application for the job.
So sad...

 

[deleted941485]

View attachment 332590

The future of the field, folks.

LOL hungry for what exactly? What a tool

 

[SubserviantToABR]

View attachment 332590

The future of the field, folks.

Found the future palliative radiation oncology fellow! Can't wait to see their notes, pontificating between APPA or wedged pair for that cord compression. Hope they starting mining those databases to publish their crap retrospectove papers, next to Marcus Randall's whiny letter.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

LOL hungry for what exactly? What a tool

These takes are so dumb.

You make $70k but you collect $400k.
Who wins in this situation?

Not you.
Not the patient (their bill was the same).
Just the admins.
And when the admins win no one else wins. Not the patients and certainly not you or your family.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

These takes are so dumb.

You make $70k but you collect $400k.
Who wins in this situation?

Not you.
Not the patient (their bill was the same).
Just the admins.
And when the admins win no one else wins. Not the patients and certainly not you or your family.

Exactly!

Newsflash, kids saying they'd work for peanuts: you're only hurting yourself, and then the rest of us, by diminishing your (our) value.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Exactly!

Newsflash, kids saying they'd work for peanuts: you're only hurting yourself, and then the rest of us, by diminishing your (our) value.

Hate to equate this to anti-masker/vaccine folks but it feels the same. We are all swimming with the idiot making a bunch of waves and urinating in the pool.

 

[medgator]

Out of the list above...

The programs that surprise me (they should have matched): Vandy, UVA, MCW and UNC are (to me) very decent programs.

Florida also. I suspect Bob Amdur is doing the same thing (and the right thing) as Emma Fields and choosing not to match if they don't find acceptable candidates to match

 

[medgator]

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I'm a huge fan of Emma Fields. More of her, please.

 

[fiji128]

View attachment 332590

The future of the field, folks.

For anyone who has gone through the spreadsheet there is a lot of naivety, as would be expected from medical students with zero experience. But this is straight up idiotic.

 

[Radonc90]

Yeah,

I respect Emma Fields, difficult decision is difficult, whether you are a PD or a radonc caring for your patients.
Some of the difficult decisions we made daily while treating pts are...very difficult.
But it is the correct way out of darkness...

 

[hal9k]

For anyone who has gone through the spreadsheet there is a lot of naivety, as would be expected from medical students with zero experience. But this is straight up idiotic.

lol let them take those 70k salary jobs in the middle of nowhere. I would rather just start my own business helping med students get into rad onc

 

[Gfunk6]

View attachment 332590

The future of the field, folks.

Dafaq?

I would rather sterilize and retrieve shopping carts at Cosco for $70k. Better benefits and at least I know that my leadership isn't out to screw me.

 

[RickyScott]

For anyone who has gone through the spreadsheet there is a lot of naivety, as would be expected from medical students with zero experience. But this is straight up idiotic.

the field is starting to attract the dumb AF.

 

[RickyScott]

lol let them take those 70k salary jobs in the middle of nowhere. I would rather just start my own business helping med students get into rad onc

Honestly, i would pay the guy 70k to do my job and just collect the difference but would have deep misgivings about his competency and ultimately worry about pt care.

 

[fiji128]

Honestly, i would pay the guy 70k to do my job and just collect the difference but would have deep misgivings about his competency and ultimately worry about pt care.

Excellent point

 

[brushbeamscanning]

It already happens everyday except the 70k is paid by Medicare.

 

[seper]

what does this mean?

It means we are going to SOAP. Otherwise, the institution will flag us as an incomplete residency program, Chair will be questioned and some resources may be pulled from us

 

[Radonc90]

Lol Dr. Glaucomflecken, he should be ASTRO president...

---

 

[lyltothend]

View attachment 332590

The future of the field, folks.

Watch out everyone, they are young, scrappy and hungry. I wonder if this person realizes that matching during the golden years was like participating in Thunderdome. I think people that matched during the peak period know how to compete just fine. Folks entering residency now however may have some serious questions raised about their judgement.

 

[deleted941485]

Watch out everyone, they are young, scrappy and hungry. I wonder if this person realizes that matching during the golden years was like participating in Thunderdome. I think people that matched during the peak period know how to compete just fine. Folks entering residency now however may have some serious questions raised about their judgement.

No worries. Faculty are working to foster a judgement free environment where residents can say as much stupid nonsense as they want so long as the notes are done on time

 

[ramsesthenice]

As long as people think this is a good idea

we will match. There are plenty of people with highly questionable judgement.