Money the only reason for the USA

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luccas

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What do you think, are there any reasons to come to the USA in addition to the money you could expect? I am interested in Radiology. If I could get a resideny at a top German institution like Heidelberg or Charite I wonder if there was any reason to go to the USA for residency. What do you think?

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I don't have the slightest interest in working in the US. That place is too corrupted. My apologies for being too blunt.
 
Keep in mind some bad points about working in the US

- litigation
- HMOs
- low respect for doctors (relatively speaking)
- education not recognized in a lot of other countries
- stress/workload/hours

Good points

- pay
- easier to get residency in relative to other countries
- quick residency
 
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Originally posted by luccas
What do you think, are there any reasons to come to the USA in addition to the money you could expect? I am interested in Radiology. If I could get a resideny at a top German institution like Heidelberg or Charite I wonder if there was any reason to go to the USA for residency. What do you think?

It's not the only reason... I've always wanted to be mugged in broad daylight.
 
Actually, I'm not so sure if US Meds are paid that much, especially after tax and after liability insurance. Better open Open/StarCalc or Lotus or Quattro or Excel and do some computations... An ObGyn in Chicago once told me that she has to deliver 72 babies to break even with her insurance. Wonder how many babies she delivers in a year? :D
 
Originally posted by redshifteffect
Keep in mind some bad points about working in the US

- easier to get residency in relative to other countries

That's the real reason in my opinion. In the commonwealth it seems to be some become registrars after a couple of years and are off to fame and fortune, others wallow as a junior doctor for all eternity. In my extremely limited experience this seems to be based on 'who you know' rather than what you know.
 
Originally posted by Purifyer
That's the real reason in my opinion. In the commonwealth it seems to be some become registrars after a couple of years and are off to fame and fortune, others wallow as a junior doctor for all eternity. In my extremely limited experience this seems to be based on 'who you know' rather than what you know.

Yeah that's true...but that's only true in the sense that to get into a registrar's position..ie residency....

B/c there are no standardized tests....but ppl. do it all the time...as long as you dont' have a foreign (non aussie/nz) degree you have a good chance at getting into something...
 
Originally posted by flindophile
Obviously, income is not the only criteria; however it is an important one. Best I can tell, the gross income (equivalent to line 31 on your US Form 1040) of Australian primary physicians is about 50% that of US physicians. For example, in Economics and Australian Health Policy by Mooney and Scotton there is a table (p74) that shows that the average pretax income of Australian GPs is about $A90,000 per year or roughly $US 67,000
per year. The average income for US GPs is about $130,000. Thus, on average, the income of Australian GPs is about 50% the income of US primary care physicians (and the dollar is currently weak). In addition, tax rates in Australia are significantly higher.

The relative income of physicians is consistent with what I see in other fields as well. In general, salaries in Australia are significantly lower than in the US. While there are certainly many factors that weigh in favor of life in Australia, it takes a lot to make up for a 50% cut in income.

You aren't DrB are you? I keep having this argument with you!!! for some reason everyone is spreading this rumour that Aussie GPs get 50% less than US GPs which is not true.

As for income...let's calculate this for a second. In Australia as a GP you can charge as much as you want per patient, not to mention the fact that there are NO HMOs or any of that rubbish. The gov't compensates you with $25. The average fee here is $40 per patient (at least in the city where i study), and you see about 25 patients per day. Now that means $1000 per week, and if you only work 5 days in a week that's $240 000 for 48 weeks in a year.

$240 000 Australian = 167,845.90 how is this 50% less than the average american gp??



DrB I don't know what figures you are getting but trust me they are very out of date...

if anyone would like to see our "debate" please check out the following link:

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=7910
 
I should point out a couple of things:

If you work in Melbourne/Sydney you will make peanuts for obvious reasons...they have a very high patient to GP ratio

If you work in a city where there is a shortage (which is most of the rest of them) there is the potential to make 200 000 + (AUD)

The tax is high, but then again the work load is less...and there is no hassle in dealing with insurance companies since the gov't provides rebates (even medibank private is gov't owned).

Next I personally know surgeons that are making in the million plus range...so I hardly think that aussie docs make less money...

Remember for tax purposes (esp. when I'm paying a lot) i would report my income as significantly less than it really is...even with gov't benefits you can still just take the cash portion from the payment and not claim a rebate from the gov't...this is called being a "good" businessman.

So the averages in this books may look low...but in fact they aren't that low.


Final comment - most aussie gps don't even work 5 days a week...mine works 3 and takes 2 months off per year.
 
Originally posted by flindophile
My data are taken from economic surveys and represent AVERAGES rather than back-of-the-envelope estimates or anecdotal evidence. Because these data are averages, it is easy to find counterexamples ("I know a doctor in ____ who makes ____"). We can go back and forth forever citing examples of doctors in either country who make high incomes. While such examples are interesting and give some idea of the variance of incomes, they are not useful for comparative purposes. I am happy to be persuaded if you can provide good evidence (i.e. statistical) to support your point. Until then, I think my evidence trumps yours.

You should also note that your calculations represent GROSS income before operating expenses.

Yes, I am DrB on valueMD. My username got screwed up on SDN so I use the name flindophile here.

- I will try and find evidence to support this claim..but I suggest you visit a GP and see how much they charge you. And your assertion that American GP makes 120 000 after expenses I find hard to believe

- it's not fair to convert Aussie dollars to US dollars, because 1 dollar in Australia is the same as 1 dollar in the US (buys the same things)...other than electronics the cost of living in Austraila is much less than the US...

- until then: here is a list of GPs that are advertising call them and see how much you can make..I think that's a more fair market evaluation then some average you got from an outdated source.

http://www.gpea.com.au/classifieds/index_more.htm
 
Originally posted by flindophile
Originally posted by redshifteffect
-

- it's not fair to convert Aussie dollars to US dollars, because 1 dollar in Australia is the same as 1 dollar in the US (buys the same things)...other than electronics the cost of living in Austraila is much less than the US...


What?! If you believe that, I will GLADLY trade you as many Australian dollars as you like for an equivalent number of US dollars. Where did you take economics?





This is a very simple concept. If a meal at McDonalds costs $ US 5 in the US, and the same meal costs $ AUD 5 in Australia for both countries the money is equal. You only feel the "sting" because you are American and therefore you will spend your money in America. But if you were living in Australia permenantly you would be buying products in Australia...therefore to you the price of the US dollar would be irrelevant...do you see where I'm going?

Honestly though I think your figures are out of date. For obvious reasons it's difficult to find a study that accurately represents the true salary GPs are making. Your "surgery" fee is different from the GP salary we are talking about.

Put it simply...I have been unable to find a GP that charges less than $40 in the city that I study in. Some will bulk bill but this is usually only for students or other ppl. on a fixed income. I would suggest you call some of the numbers on the list and ask them what amount of money partners make.

Finally there are a lot of "hidden" costs involved with working in the States. First of all even though taxes are less renting is more expensive, so maintaining your own private practice will cost a lot more. Chasing after insurance companies also may require you to hire additional staff members etc.

http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/issues/scan.htm?Id=3628

And there is vital piece of information that you have left out of this "debate" ...you see if you go back to the States unless you have some extraordinary scores on your USMLEs you have very few options and will have to limit yourself to a less competitive area/specialty...

If you get a PR here you are on equal grounds with everyone else....and have a much better chance of getting the residency position you want..which is a huge advantage over going to the US.
 
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Originally posted by flindophile
You're correct about the median in the "survey" you suggested. I am not sure whether you noticed, but it has a sample size of 3. Not exactly strong evidence.


If you truly believe your argument about the equivalency of currencies, then you would be willing to trade me US dollars for Australian dollars on a one to one basis. Are you really willing to do this? I am happy to meet at your convenience to carry out this transaction. How about outside a currency exchange? That would be most convenient for me.


There really isn't anything "magical" about the 1 to 1 dollar argument...really it's just common sense. That's what the Canadian gov't did to our dollar. Since our wages were too high we weren't competitive enough to export products to the US, so they devaluated the dollar....

Unless you plan to be importing something from the US it doesn't really make a difference what value the US dollar is.

Honestly are you saying that if you were an Australian $1 dollar will get you less in Australia than it would in the US??

Take into account cost of living (housing prices, rent etc..) and the two most expensive things in Australia, gas and electronics still make living here cheaper than the US.
 
flindophile and red (former will likely be returning to N. America to practice, latter will likely not, mind you ;)) are arguing which of two different measures is more meaningful -- gross income converted to a single currency vs. gross income also adjusted for cost of living. Both are meaningful. For example, for the $ that I am spending (since living) in Australia, the latter is chiefly important, while for what I save (invest) for future use, the former quickly becomes more important.

I'd also like to be able to start with net incomes (post-indemnity, post-taxes), but then there'd have to be some assumptions, such as field of specialty.

So as an example using a very simple model (these number are completely bogus mind you), let's say we're looking at GPs.

US doc:

(GP ave. salary - malpractice)*(1 - tax rate) = US 100k net
- US 40k (living expenses)
-----------------
US 60K surplus


Country Z doc:

(GP ave. salary - indemnity)*(1 - tax rate) = Z 100k = US 75k net
- US 20k (living expenses)
-----------------
US 55K surplus

Note that in a perfectly free and fluid international capitalist market, the cost-of-living fraction would be the same as the currency conversion fraction, but this is never the case in reality.

What I'd propose can then be compared is the surplus, the amount available for saving/investment. For sure, where I later spend the saved money matters, but generally if one surplus is just a little more than the other, and I am a rational investor, then this initial difference would probably outweigh. For example, in the above, it is true that US 55k would go a lot further in Australia than US 60K would in US, but after 10+ years investment, that advantage would diminish significantly.

Notice that the more frugal I am (the lower my acceptable standard of living), the better it'd be to practice in US, and the converse. But keep in mind the simplicity of the model, which doesn't account for items whose costs should not be standardized by cost of living adjustments (e.g., a second or luxury car), and that therefore 'living expenses' for country Z will not remain at 1/2 that for US, as spending increases.

-pitman
 
Originally posted by flindophile
The data you suggest would be ideal -- if it were available.

I suggested comparing net operating income (aka gross income, or income before taxes) of Australian GPs vs American primary care physicians because they are roughly comparable jobs and salary data are available.

With respect to currency conversion, I agree with your comment that the ultimate thing that matters is the lifestyle that your income can provide in a particular country. Having the option of living in either country, things get a bit more compicated particularly if you might switch. For example, if I earn an Australian income for fifteen years and then go back to the US -- financial disaster. From a purely financial perspective, you are much better off working in the US and moving to Australia later.

It is easy to compare cost of living statistics. Various human resource consulting firms such as Mercer Consulting publish guides. Sydney has a cost of living index of 73 which is based on a scale relative to NYC (100). For example, LA = 86. So life in Australia is less expensive (especially if you are willing to live in Wagga Wagga), but I don't think it is enough to account for the big difference in salaries. It still seems to me that, in economic terms, a physician in the US does better than an Australian.

Once again, I wouldn't make the decision based soley on financial considerations -- but they are an important factor.
]

I still disagree that you have to live in "Wagga Wagga" to get a good lifestyle.

In case you haven't noticed there is a critical shortage of doctors...everywhere except perhaps Sydney and Melbourne. Gold Coast/Brisbane/Perth etc...

If anything especially with the current shortage the wage of GPs will only get higher.
 
Originally posted by flindophile

With respect to currency conversion, I agree with your comment that the ultimate thing that matters is the lifestyle that your income can provide in a particular country. Having the option of living in either country, things get a bit more compicated particularly if you might switch. For example, if I earn an Australian income for fifteen years and then go back to the US -- financial disaster. From a purely financial perspective, you are much better off working in the US and moving to Australia later.


Yes, the moving potential matters precisely b.c. of the income "surplus" (whatever's not spent while working in the country), and in the meantime any difference in equivalent-currency surpluses will be compounded over time (while waiting to move) when invested. This compounding happens whether you move or not. But I also didn't focus on the move potential b.c. then you'd have to work through reasoning such as, "why move? because you want to live there? so how much has that preference been worth to you as opportunity cost for working/living in the US in the meantime?" ..and other tricky s*it.


It is easy to compare cost of living statistics. Various human resource consulting firms such as Mercer Consulting publish guides. Sydney has a cost of living index of 73 which is based on a scale relative to NYC (100). For example, LA = 86.


But it quickly gets more complicated -- the cost of living fractions are based on weighted costs for particular market baskets. For example, assumption will be for a reasonable car, whose cost by itself would be more than .73 that of one bought near NYC. So purchasing a second car would result in a cost of living fraction greater than .73 for the doc in Australia. The adjusted fraction would become even greater for luxury items, which are generally less reflected by cost of living indices (and are less flexibly priced across countries).

In other words, a cost of living index applies to typical, reasonable expenses, and after paying those out, if one keeps spending (is less frugal than typical, i.e., buying more luxury or other non-adjustable items), the less the adjusted cost advantage goes to Australia. I realize this supports your view, but I wanted to clarify how cost-of-living adjustment is less helpful a tool for people with far more $ than average who are spending more than average. Of course, if you lived really frugally, then the greater the advantage for the doc in Australia (compared to what's in the simple model above).

I think our only disagreement is our difference in confidence with some of the variable values -- how much a doc can save in US dollars to invest for future use, where the person will live after working/living in first country, etc. So I guess I'm just saying that you both could be correct, depending on a bunch of assumptions.

-pitman
 
Originally posted by flindophile
I know nothing about this. Is there a doctor shortage in Australia? What is the evidence?

Have physician salaries increased rapidly recently?

Has the ratio of physicians to population declined?

I have no point of view on this -- but I am curious to hear the evidence.

You're kidding right? don't they talk to you about this stuff in class??

Australia has one of the biggest physican shortages it's ever had...that's why the move in these last couple of years to keep international students.

See my post "Good news for Australian internationals" and call that number.
 
Originally posted by flindophile
I am aware of shortages of rural physicians but I have not heard of a general shortage (which doesn't mean much). It seems that the recent announcments are targeted at areas of need -- which I thought meant rural areas.

I know that many areas have shortage of hospital beds throughout Australia -- but this is different from a shortage of physicians. Similarly, a shortage of people to fill intern slots does not necessarily imply an overall shortage of physicians.

I often hear about a doctor shortage in the US as well, but I think the data are not clear. The number of physicians per 100,000 has almost doubled in the last 20 years. I read different points of view on this topic. Unfortunately, most posts on this forum contain anecdotes or hopeful thinking and generally provide little useful data or insight.

Anyway, I am curious to hear about the physician shortage in Australia. I paid little attention to Australian medical economics because, until recently, I had no intention of staying.

I learned all of this in class...so I don't have any links but I'll try and find some.

But there is a general shortage of doctors in not only hospitals but in private practice as well. In particular GPs. If you want to be a GP there are over 450 training spots open each year and they never get filled.

The shortage does extend to physicans as well, but I don't know how extensie this is.

That example I found of the 200,000 + job in the Gold coast that took about 5 mins, I have found 5-6 in Perth and some in areas only 1 hour out of Melbourne...

Until the Australian gov't finds a strategy to decrease the shortage (ie actively recruit overseas trained graduates) or a lot more Australian medical schools are opened, the shortage will only continue.

The difference b/w the shortage of doctors in Australia and the US, is that in the US the shortages are really in areas like "Wubba Wubba"....
 
Originally posted by flindophile
As in the US, the growth rate of physicians in Australian has been faster than the growth rate of the population.

1976: 151 physicians per 100,000
1996: 242

In 1994, the Australian Medical Workforce Advisory Commitee set a target of 207 per 100,000 and, due to the aging population, thought that this should grow to 270 per 100,000 by 2025.

According to Health Care and Public Policy: An Australian Analysis there was an oversupply of physicians in 1996 and Australia was seeking ways to limit medical school slots. Apparently, things have changed!

According to this book (published 2000), there are shortages in certain specialties and in certain geographic areas, but there is not a widespread shortage of physicians.

It will be interesting to see how the future plays out. Australia's population is so small that a few new medical schools may have a big impact. In addition, they are starting programs for nurse practioners (over much resistance from the physician community).

amwac.health.nsw.gov.au/corporate-services/ amwac/wrkfrceintelligenceFeb02.pdf


www.health.gov.au/healthonline/docs/summit2/walsh.pdf


Most of the articles haven't taken into account the tremendous aging population and the lack of desire on the part of Australians to become GPs.

I don't if you know this but up until a little while ago you could get a provider number to become a GP right after internship. This is no longer the case, and now you must complete a minimum 3 year training program to get your FRCAGP

So most Aussies don't want to be GPs...plus 80 people extra per year is not going to be enough to reduce the shortage of doctors.

From what we learned in class most of the areas around Big cities and some big cities themselves Brisbane/Gold Coast is an example have a dire shortage of doctors...and even an additional medical school isn't enough to compensate for this need.
 
Wonder why Brisbane area has a shortage, I mean beautiful city, warm, beaches + diving, many tourists requiring occasional med attention...

-pitman
 
Originally posted by pitman
Wonder why Brisbane area has a shortage, I mean beautiful city, warm, beaches + diving, many tourists requiring occasional med attention...

-pitman

Not the same as Sydney... + it's freaking hot in the summer.
 
Originally posted by redshifteffect

So most Aussies don't want to be GPs...plus 80 people extra per year is not going to be enough to reduce the shortage of doctors.

From what we learned in class most of the areas around Big cities and some big cities themselves Brisbane/Gold Coast is an example have a dire shortage of doctors...and even an additional medical school isn't enough to compensate for this need.

Shouldn't you be learning... you know... cytokines and stuff ?:)~
 
Originally posted by Purifyer
Shouldn't you be learning... you know... cytokines and stuff ?:)~

Foundation med/Community Health..it's a 6 year course...there's a lot of stuff they can jam in there :)

Even learned about "Gap" payments and Bulk Billings...
 
According to a journal I found regarding the salaries of Australian physicians the average GP earns slightly over A$100,000 a year after expenses, which at current exchange rates is about $76,000US. The average general practioner in the US earns between $120,000 to $140,000 after expenses. That being said the cost of living in Australia is roughly half what it is in the United States, so therefore the purchasing power of A$1 in Australia is much greater than $1US in the USA. In spite of the fact that US doctors do earn more than Australian physicians they also wind up with greater living expenses than their counterparts in Australia. Even though Sydney and Melbourne are expensive by Australian standards, affordable housing is quite plentiful compared to a cosmopolitan city in the US(Even in San Francisco after the high-tech burnout a 1000sq. ft house 30 miles outside the city can cost $750,000+ easy, in New York and Los Angeles the housing prices are through the roof as well) Couple this with the fact that life for a doctor in the US is far more stressful: lawsuits and litigation(one lawsuit can easily put you in the poorhouse for life), long hours, short vacations(6 weeks in Oz versus only 2 weeks in the US), insurance company hassles, intense working conditions, a MUCH higher crime rate( I know an ER doctor in Chicago who was caught in between a street gang shootout in the hospital where she works.), life for a physician in the US is very difficult. In America its better to be a lawyer in a big law firm or work on Wall Street.
 
Originally posted by JoeNamaMD
According to a journal I found regarding the salaries of Australian physicians the average GP earns slightly over A$100,000 a year after expenses, which at current exchange rates is about $76,000US. The average general practioner in the US earns between $120,000 to $140,000 after expenses. That being said the cost of living in Australia is roughly half what it is in the United States, so therefore the purchasing power of A$1 in Australia is much greater than $1US in the USA. In spite of the fact that US doctors do earn more than Australian physicians they also wind up with greater living expenses than their counterparts in Australia. Even though Sydney and Melbourne are expensive by Australian standards, affordable housing is quite plentiful compared to a cosmopolitan city in the US(Even in San Francisco after the high-tech burnout a 1000sq. ft house 30 miles outside the city can cost $750,000+ easy, in New York and Los Angeles the housing prices are through the roof as well) Couple this with the fact that life for a doctor in the US is far more stressful: lawsuits and litigation(one lawsuit can easily put you in the poorhouse for life), long hours, short vacations(6 weeks in Oz versus only 2 weeks in the US), insurance company hassles, intense working conditions, a MUCH higher crime rate( I know an ER doctor in Chicago who was caught in between a street gang shootout in the hospital where she works.), life for a physician in the US is very difficult. In America its better to be a lawyer in a big law firm or work on Wall Street.

I don't buy the purchasing power argument.

Can you show me current PPP data for the AUD versus the USD?

Additionally, you are comparing some of the highest cost (and income) areas of the planet(SF Bay Area, NY, LA) to Australia in general. I'm not sure how much water this argument holds.
 
Well, when there is a nation-wide average of 340 physicans per physician in the U.S. versus, say, a nation-wide average of 54,000 per person in Burkina Faso, there are at least 53,660 incalculably valuable reasons to not practice in the U.S.

Food for thought and possible action.
 
Originally posted by Stephen Ewen
Well, when there is a nation-wide average of 340 physicans per physician in the U.S. versus, say, a nation-wide average of 54,000 per person in Burkina Faso, there are at least 53,660 incalculably valuable reasons to not practice in the U.S.

Food for thought and possible action.

Or, if you look at it another way, there are 53,660 reasons for Burkina Faso to change its social, political and economic structure to attract more physicians (as well as other professionals).
 
Originally posted by JoeNamaMD
long hours, short vacations(6 weeks in Oz versus only 2 weeks in the US), intense working conditions,.

For you,these are negatives. For myself, they are positives.
 
Originally posted by Miklos
Or, if you look at it another way, there are 53,660 reasons for Burkina Faso to change its social, political and economic structure to attract more physicians (as well as other professionals).

And still another way to look at it is to either wait for that red carpet to roll out; or, to go in, roll up your sleeves, and start to help build things.
 
Originally posted by luccas
What do you think, are there any reasons to come to the USA in addition to the money you could expect? I am interested in Radiology. If I could get a resideny at a top German institution like Heidelberg or Charite I wonder if there was any reason to go to the USA for residency. What do you think?


Money is one big factor although coming from Germany and living in America is not exactly like coming from a third world country so you really have to ask is it worth giving up your culture and lifestyle to come to the US. Radiology is one of the highest paid specialties. I don't know what you would get in Germany, but there are only a few specialties in USA the make more than radiology. Radiologists make 2-3 times what family practice docs make. The upper tax bracket is around 38%. So you can do the math.

As for lawsuits you get malpractice insurance which varies from state to state. It is generally in the $7,000- 15,000 range. Pick what states you practice in carefully. There are many states that have malpractice caps in place so their are maximum for damages. California for example has a max of $250,000 which will easily be covered by your insurer. You will get sued several times in your career, but the vast majority of these suits get dropped or you win. Occasionally you may be forced to settle.

Advancement- I have heard that some European countries it is very hard to advance unless you have conections. In the USA, it is more merit based and there are many Chairmen of departments that are foreigners. Of course connections always help.
 
Originally posted by Stephen Ewen
And still another way to look at it is to either wait for that red carpet to roll out; or, to go in, roll up your sleeves, and start to help build things.

I respectfully disagree.

In my lifetime, I have seen tons and tons of charity directed towards the developing world, especially sub-Saharan Africa with little overall effect.

IMHO, the best chance for development lies in giving the developing world a chance to sell its goods on Western markets (as well as each others markets). Currently (IMHO), massive subsidies (especially for agricultural products and textiles) in Europe, North America and Asia coupled with high tariffs on such imports do more to undermine the future of the developing world than anything else.

Until this is resolved, I am (sadly) a pessimist.
 
I'm really wondering if you're working for the US goverment sometimes :laugh:
 
theodore said:
I'm really wondering if you're working for the US goverment sometimes :laugh:

No, I just believe in classical economics a la Adam Smith.
 
You might want to read some John Gray.
 
Stephen Ewen said:
You might want to read some John Gray.

I've done better than that. I've experienced communism up-front and first hand.

IMO, communism enslaves people, capitalism sets them free.
 
Here is an interesting question.
Do you believe that US doctors earn more than doctors in the United Kingdom considering US tax and malpractice insurance.
I think UK doctors earn far more than US doctors as they have low medical defense costs to pay.
thanks for input
 
tl47 said:
Actually, I'm not so sure if US Meds are paid that much, especially after tax and after liability insurance. Better open Open/StarCalc or Lotus or Quattro or Excel and do some computations... An ObGyn in Chicago once told me that she has to deliver 72 babies to break even with her insurance. Wonder how many babies she delivers in a year? :D

14 million people in chicago, i was speaking with an obgyn doc from chicago the other day and he was telling me that during his training he would go from bed to bed delivering babies at cook county-- no time for labor. 72 babies may sound like a lot, but not in chicago
 
tl47 said:
Actually, I'm not so sure if US Meds are paid that much, especially after tax and after liability insurance. Better open Open/StarCalc or Lotus or Quattro or Excel and do some computations... An ObGyn in Chicago once told me that she has to deliver 72 babies to break even with her insurance. Wonder how many babies she delivers in a year? :D

So, she pays her insurance in a month or two? The rest of the year is gravy? Not too bad....
 
Miklos said:
I respectfully disagree.

In my lifetime, I have seen tons and tons of charity directed towards the developing world, especially sub-Saharan Africa with little overall effect.

IMHO, the best chance for development lies in giving the developing world a chance to sell its goods on Western markets (as well as each others markets). Currently (IMHO), massive subsidies (especially for agricultural products and textiles) in Europe, North America and Asia coupled with high tariffs on such imports do more to undermine the future of the developing world than anything else.

Until this is resolved, I am (sadly) a pessimist.


You're 100% correct. The EU (and US) limitations on imports from the third world, and the "environmental" limitations that keep the third world sick and starving (DDT, CFC's, fertilizers, GM foods) are just keeping the down, down.
 
Rajshah said:
Here is an interesting question.
Do you believe that US doctors earn more than doctors in the United Kingdom considering US tax and malpractice insurance.
I think UK doctors earn far more than US doctors as they have low medical defense costs to pay.
thanks for input

It is an interesting question, but I don't think the raw answer is particularly useful. Rather than calculate the "take-home" pay of doctors in the US vs UK, look at the standard of living that each group has.

The standard of living (of things that matter to me) is higher in the US than UK or EU, and I've lived in all three.
 
jakstat33 said:
14 million people in chicago, i was speaking with an obgyn doc from chicago the other day and he was telling me that during his training he would go from bed to bed delivering babies at cook county-- no time for labor. 72 babies may sound like a lot, but not in chicago


Err, 14 million in CHICAGO? Not hardly. There are something like 12.6 million in all of Illinois. What were you trying to say?
 
redshifteffect said:
- I will try and find evidence to support this claim..but I suggest you visit a GP and see how much they charge you. And your assertion that American GP makes 120 000 after expenses I find hard to believe

- it's not fair to convert Aussie dollars to US dollars, because 1 dollar in Australia is the same as 1 dollar in the US (buys the same things)...other than electronics the cost of living in Austraila is much less than the US...

- until then: here is a list of GPs that are advertising call them and see how much you can make..I think that's a more fair market evaluation then some average you got from an outdated source.

http://www.gpea.com.au/classifieds/index_more.htm

You're right, the salary surveys of US IM/FP/PED docs show that their annual take-home (after expenses) is closer to USD$150 or so. Thats an average too, so the new in practice pull down the long-time in practice.

And, what does 3.78 liters of petrol cost in Aus? (in Los Angeles right now, about USD 2.15) How about .5 kilos of high-end beef (a sirloin cut, or something like that)? (USD 5 or thereabouts) A 1kg loaf of bread? (USD 1.5). 1 liter of milk (USD 1.2) A pair of average trousers (jeans)? (USD 20) A pull-over shirt with collar (polo shirt)? (USD 15 or so). Those are the prices I paid for everyday items in the past week.


Just curious, I've really enjoyed my visits to Australia
 
Miklos said:
I don't buy the purchasing power argument.

Can you show me current PPP data for the AUD versus the USD?

Additionally, you are comparing some of the highest cost (and income) areas of the planet(SF Bay Area, NY, LA) to Australia in general. I'm not sure how much water this argument holds.


Well, I sold my house last year (to afford medical school), after 7 years of ownership I had a net 180% increase in value. I now live in a 1200 sq ft brand new apartment with air conditioning, built in appliances including washer/drier/dishwasher/microwave/refrigerator, a private garage and a covered parking space, water and waste costs included in a complex with pool/spa, exercise facility, golf course (adjacent), freeway close, etc for $1300/mo. It's 30 miles north of downtown Los Angeles (Santa Clarita).

I coould have found a similar (but not as quite well appointed) apartment in the San Fernando valley (Encino/Sherman Oaks), closer to downtown LA, for around $800-1000/mo. I choose to live in Santa Clarita because of the weather (300+ clear days a year), and because it's one of the safest cities in the US according to the FBI.

Now, what would a similar place cost in say Sidney? No doubt it's more here, but the point is that the costs aren't as high as the increase in salaries.
 
Stephen Ewen said:
Well, when there is a nation-wide average of 340 physicans per physician in the U.S. versus, say, a nation-wide average of 54,000 per person in Burkina Faso, there are at least 53,660 incalculably valuable reasons to not practice in the U.S.

Food for thought and possible action.


Ever been to Burkina Faso? I have. Not planning on practicing there, but I might go on a medical mission.
 
Interesting question about the 3rd world. I have heard it stead that the amount of capital coming out of third world nations and beign deposited in Swiss bank accounts etc is greater than the amount of international aid given. Maybe a better approach than giving money or goods is to stop the export of petrol.
I'd be itnerested in cost of living comparisons so ahve started a thread on it...
 
flighterdoc said:
The standard of living (of things that matter to me) is higher in the US than UK or EU, and I've lived in all three.

I agree. Standard of living is noticably higher in the US than in UK. Everything is somewhat better in the US except cell phone technology. In that area, Europe is so much more advanced!

To me it is useless to convert currency when you live at that country for a while. If I had done so everyday, I would have starved to death in UK because everything is sooooooo expensive if you try to convert it in your head.

How much does a studio apt in Sydney or Melbourne cost? I rented a studio in L.A.'s Westwood area for a couple years and it costed me $925!!! Actually, I did not even have a full kitchen!
 
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