“Modern” Dreads

[chlorocruorin]

The amount of physicians commenting on this thread is wild.

LAST TAKE: OP, pay special attention to the physicians commenting. They do know more than most, if not all of us. Also, being an AA male myself, that has been through the interview trail, I do know the thought process you’re going through. I’d make sure your fade is nice and shape up is okay if you’re rocking it. I don’t think it’ll be an issue. If changing up your hairstyle causes you to feel less confident (again, I know our haircuts are important to us lol) then don’t, but if you feel fine trimming them, it’d be a much safer move.

Good luck!

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

OP's question was asked and answered. However, as the current discussion does have relevance, I am moving this to Underrepresented in Healthcare so that those who wish to continue the discussion may.

I will remind everyone though to keep it professional. Disagreement is part of healthy dialogue, and it is welcome. Personal attacks and insinuating that other posters are racist or trolling just because they disagree with you are not. Thanks.

 

[getdown]

Sit this one out doc

Or what? You gonna come find me and beat me up? Find my social media stuff and blast it throughout the internet about how much of a racist I am? What exactly are you implying big boy?

What you're trying to do is sterilize the world into only thinking the way you think. Good luck with that as diversity of opinions, good and bad, are what is part of life. So, instead of being offended by things you don't agree with you should try to learn to understand where people are coming from. You're about to enter a field where patients are going to say crazy stuff at you and if your first response is to fight them at everything you're gonna be in for a rude awakening.

So shape the hell up cause you actions and responses are defeating the purpose of what you're trying to do in this thread even when we agree with your idea over all.

 

[catnip12]

I say find a good tie for your hair / way to present it but do not cut it! My hair is not too far off and I got 4 Acceptances with a possible 2 more to come!

Use your interview to show that your competence supersedes your hairstyle!

 

[RNtoMD87]

Wow... I'm starting to see it. People fight over some dumb **** on here.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Truth getdown. Can’t tell you how many times I’m asked if “Are you a fagg0t?” because “well you’re a male nurse. Don’t that mean you’re gay?”

I just wink at them and smile. It’s hilarious. Had a big biker white trash dude losing his mind pissed off once. What an idiot.

 

[OchemOficionado]

How is that "intimidating"?
.

A lot of people find black males intimidating period. Having a natural hairstyle or one that someone perceives as “unkempt” can exasperate this. Black kids have even been suspended from school for wearing similar styles. Society has told us that our natural hair is generally not seen as professional.

If this isn’t true for you, that’s cool. Not here to debate this but I hope I provided some clarity on my first post.

 

[catnip12]

Best luck OP! Update on what you choose to do and how it turns out for you!

 

[RNtoMD87]

A lot of people find black males intimidating period. Having a natural hairstyle or one that someone perceives as “unkempt” can exasperate this. Black kids have even been suspended from school for wearing similar styles. Society has told us that our natural hair is generally not seen as professional.

If this isn’t true for you, that’s cool. Not here to debate this but I hope I provided some clarity on my first post.

But are they suspended for being intimidating or just not meeting a dress code? At my public school, I was sent home if my hair touched my ears, and in high school males weren't allowed to have any facial hair, piercings, etc. We ended up having uniforms because of dress code violations regarding clothing.

 

[OchemOficionado]

But are they suspended for being intimidating or just not meeting a dress code? At my public school, I was sent home if my hair touched my ears, and in high school males weren't allowed to have any facial hair, piercings, etc. We ended up having uniforms because of dress code violations regarding clothing.

Respectfully, I think you missed the point. My apologies if it is due to me not being clear. Black children’s natural hair going against school “dress code” is an entire convo within itself. I would not have used it as an example of how natural Black hair is sometimes viewed if I thought it would open a can of worms.

I was not insinuating that the hair itself is intimidating, it’s about WHO is wearing it. (I said Black males are regarded by some as intimidating PERIOD, and that locks/natural styles can exasperate it. Not that locks are intimidating)

 

[RNtoMD87]

I just haven't seen that particular issue since I live in an area where blacks are the majority.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I just haven't seen that particular issue since I live in a state where blacks are the majority.

As a Black person I still don’t see every societal issue that Black people can possibly face so that’s not surprising. If you happen to be interested in learning more about it there is a bunch of info online.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

As a Black person I still don’t see every societal issue that Black people can possibly face so that’s not surprising. If you happen to be interested in learning more about it there is a bunch of info online.

This. I have been called a **** in public before and been the subject of antisemitism in the classroom and workplace. I know Jews who have never experienced that in their lives and ones who have experienced much, much worse. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

And tbh, people outside of the culture it’s happening to tend to be pretty oblivious. My wife asked me if I had ever had anything antisemitic said to me, and she was shocked to find out that still happens in this country lol.

Edit: the stars are a four-letter slur for Jews.

 

[OchemOficionado]

This. I have been called a **** in public before and been the subject of antisemitism in the classroom and workplace. I know Jews who have never experienced that in their lives and ones who have experienced much, much worse. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

And tbh, people outside of the culture it’s happening to tend to be pretty oblivious. My wife asked me if I had ever had anything antisemitic said to me, and she was shocked to find out that still happens in this country lol.

Edit: the stars are a four-letter slur for Jews.

That pisses me off. I tried to do the angry reaction, but this isn’t fb.

The shocked reaction still shocks me. I don’t know why. Well, yeah I do. I’m shocked because I’m measuring their societal/cultural awareness using my own personal custom ruler, but their lived experience is so much different that I shouldn’t even compare. No comparison = no surprise that they’re surprised I guess.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Personally for me it depends on where I go. Certain lower income neighborhoods (unfortunately like the one I live in) aren’t friendly to whites. But some of them are. I always have to carry my handgun when I go for walks because I have had a couple people attempt/pre attempt to rob me or just come confront me at the road. Racial slurs get slung my way, etc. I usually look straight forward and only react if they come in my immediate proximity.

But like I said, other neighborhoods I wave, they wave back, very friendly. Usually have a bunch of older folk.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That pisses me off. I tried to do the angry reaction, but this isn’t fb.

The shocked reaction still shocks me. I don’t know why. Well, yeah I do. I’m shocked because I’m measuring their societal/cultural awareness using my own personal custom ruler, but their lived experience is so much different that I shouldn’t even compare. No comparison = no surprise that they’re surprised I guess.

Yep. People readily fall into the WYSIATI trap (what you see is all there is). If you haven’t read Thinking: Fast and Slow, give it a read. It’s a great deep dive into system 1 and system 2 thinking. Great for physicians and med students.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Yep. People readily fall into the WYSIATI trap (what you see is all there is). If you haven’t read Thinking: Fast and Slow, give it a read. It’s a great deep dive into system 1 and system 2 thinking. Great for physicians and med students.

Thanks, will do!

 

[Mike Bagwell]

We are trying to help OP get into med school by decreasing the chances his appearance will trigger a negative reaction.

Doc, I think YOU (and some others) are the ones who are solely focused on race and race-baiting on this issue. If I was focused on race-baiting, I would accuse you of being a racist. How can I be race-baiting when I don't even know what you guys look like or where you're from? I'm giving you all the benefit of the doubt.

You might think you're helping the OP, or anybody else in a similar spot out for that matter, but you aren't. You're suggesting that someone's own hair can "trigger a negative reaction" and that thought process is WRONG on so many levels especially today. How does that comment not say something about how you think professionally? I mean are you triggered when you see a patient with dreads?

Do you remember Trayvon Martin? His hoodie apparently triggered a negative reaction; like the one you are suggesting. Now if he only lost a medical school interview well that wouldn't be the end of the world and we could have told him to hang up the hoodie just for that one night but this kid lost his life! ...for buying candy apparently too. Somebody should have instead given the gunman a lecture on how NOT to be triggered by a hoodie.

Dreadlocks are not the equivalent of a student who wants to come to class wearing a MAGA shirt and matching hat. Hair is biological, the shirt and hat are contrived. You can definitely tell the student that the shirt and hat will "trigger a negative reaction" and they should be avoided because the shirt and hat EXIST to trigger an emotional reaction. I fail to see how you are telling someone that their own hair can trigger a negative reaction when the OP is not wearing dreads to piss you off! It can only trigger a negative reaction if you are anti-dreads or anti-black people. That's really all it comes down to. If you guys really wanted to help him, you could tell him flat out that "dreads are not recommended" at your program (but that brings up legal issues) or simply stay silent on the issue and say the haircuts don't look nice and let him learn by trial and error. Instead, some of you are posting some bizarre advice that dreadlocks equate to unprofessionalism, that dreads are automatically unhygienic, or they are equivalent to the decision of getting tribal tattoos. (The tribal tattoos part was golden)

I'm not ignorant, I know dreadlocks are pushing the envelope so to speak but it really comes down to who you are and how you choose to react to what you see. If the OP comes to an interview with dreads, do you want to focus on his accomplishments and see a future doctor or do you want to focus on the hair and see everything but a future doctor. I choose to see the former and that's how it should be and that's how it is at my school. I also said that's probably not how it really works.

Hey, if you're walking down the street and you see someone with dreads, feel free to run in the opposite direction or clutch your purse a little tighter. I'm not telling you to not react that way if that's what you feel. But in a professional environment, are you seriously going to focus on ethnic hair when you have a piece of paper in front of you saying "the applicant is anything but what his hair conveys to you?"

Also, don't twist my words if you want to quote me next time.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Also, don't twist my words if you want to quote me next time.

You’re doing the same thing multiple times in this post, as well as grossly mischaracterizing multiple posters’ arguments. The discussion moved on. I suggest you do as well, as this thread has potential to provide information for people and I would prefer not to close it over an argument.

That goes for everyone else as well. Continue the discussion professionally.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Doc, I think YOU (and some others) are the ones who are solely focused on race and race-baiting on this issue. If I was focused on race-baiting, I would accuse you of being a racist. How can I be race-baiting when I don't even know what you guys look like or where you're from? I'm giving you all the benefit of the doubt.

You might think you're helping the OP, or anybody else in a similar spot out for that matter, but you aren't. You're suggesting that someone's own hair can "trigger a negative reaction" and that thought process is WRONG on so many levels especially today. How does that comment not say something about how you think professionally? I mean are you triggered when you see a patient with dreads?

Do you remember Trayvon Martin? His hoodie apparently triggered a negative reaction; like the one you are suggesting. Now if he only lost a medical school interview well that wouldn't be the end of the world and we could have told him to hang up the hoodie just for that one night but this kid lost his life! ...for buying candy apparently too. Somebody should have instead given the gunman a lecture on how NOT to be triggered by a hoodie.

Dreadlocks are not the equivalent of a student who wants to come to class wearing a MAGA shirt and matching hat. Hair is biological, the shirt and hat are contrived. You can definitely tell the student that the shirt and hat will "trigger a negative reaction" and they should be avoided because the shirt and hat EXIST to trigger an emotional reaction. I fail to see how you are telling someone that their own hair can trigger a negative reaction when the OP is not wearing dreads to piss you off! It can only trigger a negative reaction if you are anti-dreads or anti-black people. That's really all it comes down to. If you guys really wanted to help him, you could tell him flat out that "dreads are not recommended" at your program (but that brings up legal issues) or simply stay silent on the issue and say the haircuts don't look nice and let him learn by trial and error. Instead, some of you are posting some bizarre advice that dreadlocks equate to unprofessionalism, that dreads are automatically unhygienic, or they are equivalent to the decision of getting tribal tattoos. (The tribal tattoos part was golden)

I'm not ignorant, I know dreadlocks are pushing the envelope so to speak but it really comes down to who you are and how you choose to react to what you see. If the OP comes to an interview with dreads, do you want to focus on his accomplishments and see a future doctor or do you want to focus on the hair and see everything but a future doctor. I choose to see the former and that's how it should be and that's how it is at my school. I also said that's probably not how it really works.

Hey, if you're walking down the street and you see someone with dreads, feel free to run in the opposite direction or clutch your purse a little tighter. I'm not telling you to not react that way if that's what you feel. But in a professional environment, are you seriously going to focus on ethnic hair when you have a piece of paper in front of you saying "the applicant is anything but what his hair conveys to you?"

Also, don't twist my words if you want to quote me next time.

Man... there is a lot that you said that I want to comment on. I wouldn’t know where to start.


1. If dreads makes someone intimidated, that person is an idiot.
2. Ortho herself is a minority, a first generation one at that.
3. While Zimmerman was a complete idiot, Trayvon Martin was also not a sweet innocent little kid that liked to eat skittles and hang out with his friends. It wasn't merely the hoodie that Zimmerman was concerned about. IMO Zimmerman was right to be concerned of a suspicious individual hopping a fence. He was wrong to keep pursuing the individual once the 9/11 operator told him to leave it alone. If anything else he should've watched from a distance rather than confront the individual. But once Trayvon (a skilled MMA fighter much older than the photos posted would have you believe) attacked him, he was in the right to defend himself. Very messy situation that could've been mitigated by both parties.
4. I agree that the person should be focused on and not superficial things like hairstyles, and I think pretty much everyone else here does aswell. I think that the point they're making is that some old dinosaur ADCOMS may not, and why take the risk? They may be SEEN as unprofessional (like tattoos or other commonplace things these days that weren't previously). Not that they ARE unprofessional. Much like an open LGBT (as many people on here), strong pro gun advocate (such as myself), etc. None of these things are character flaws, or "wrong" but why take an extra risk? I'm going to be the posterboy for good old apple pie America, without a controversial bone in my body at my interviews. Once I have the coveted MD/DO/etc, I will drop that act and be 100% the true me since it'll be too late for anyone to stop me. I recommend others do the same. Play the game, and drop the act once you get the prize.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

You’re doing the same thing multiple times in this post, as well as grossly mischaracterizing multiple posters’ arguments. The discussion moved on. I suggest you do as well, as this thread has potential to provide information for people and I would prefer not to close it over an argument.

That goes for everyone else as well. Continue the discussion professionally.

Nobody is mischaracterizing anybody's arguments. If somebody quotes me, I will offer a response to clarify my position.

If you feel that this thread is turning into an "argument" then feel free to close it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nobody is mischaracterizing anybody's arguments. If somebody quotes me, I will offer a response to clarify my position.

If you feel that this thread is turning into an "argument" then feel free to close it.

I am not arguing with you. I am just reminding everyone to keep it professional and drop the argument. This is the last time I will post a warning.

 

[catnip12]

With regards to this particular thread, at what point does it turn into an Argument that deserves to be stopped?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

With regards to this particular thread, at what point does it turn into an Argument that deserves to be stopped?

The next post. I usually have a lower threshold for closing, but I thought this thread had the potential to be useful to a minority of applicants that might have this question or a similar one.

 

[catnip12]

Dissenting opinion? Sure, but where do they turn into TOS violations?

Edit: Spelling

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Dissenting opinion? Sure, but where does they turn into TOS violations?

Edit: Spelling

It’s not a TOS violation to disagree. Direct attacks are typically when it goes too far, or when it strays off topic. The arguments here are crowding out the good information, but I wanted to give users the chance to start contributing constructively or to stop posting.

Additionally, I’d like to keep this thread open so that hopefully OP will come back and tell us what he chose to do and how it went for him.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

4. I agree that the person should be focused on and not superficial things like hairstyles, and I think pretty much everyone else here does aswell. I think that the point they're making is that some old dinosaur ADCOMS may not, and why take the risk? They may be SEEN as unprofessional (like tattoos or other commonplace things these days that weren't previously). Not that they ARE unprofessional. Much like an open LGBT (as many people on here), strong pro gun advocate (such as myself), etc. None of these things are character flaws, or "wrong" but why take an extra risk? I'm going to be the posterboy for good old apple pie America, without a controversial bone in my body at my interviews. Once I have the coveted MD/DO/etc, I will drop that act and be 100% the true me since it'll be too late for anyone to stop me. I recommend others do the same. Play the game, and drop the act once you get the prize.

I think you're trying to understand the issue better than some and I commend you for the effort but what you are failing to still see is that hair is being used, in this example, to say "don't cut your hair this way or that way because you will look like that and the that part bothers some people." That all comes down to your way of thinking and I called certain people out on that because it's wrong. My response to "dinosaur" ADCOMS was that there are plenty of progressive programs out there like mine that would not force someone to feel that they need to change something as trivial as their style of hair to succeed at the interview stage.

Being pro-guns is not the same thing as an AA male choosing to wear his hair a certain way. You are not born pro-gun. Being pro-gun is a stance you choose to take and we have very strict gun laws in certain parts of this country where you are essentially not allowed to take that stance. We don't have anti-dread laws. You're making the mistake of thinking an AA male is choosing to wear their hair in dreads and that's where I think we don't see eye to eye. That's their hair and it is a part of who they are and you really have to respect that. Not every AA male goes to an interview with dreads. But if someone wants to, they shouldn't have to ask if it will affect their chances of succeeding at gaining admission to a program.

I was a little stunned that people on this site were recommending the OP lose the dreads altogether because the rationale behind that was all wrong.

 

[catnip12]

Nothing “triggers” me. I’m a gun-toting, female republican Jewish immigrant, incest and abuse survivor and orthopaedic trauma surgeon. Triggers are for wussy left-wingers.

Sweet mother of....

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Sweet mother of....

I’m a hit at parties. No one knows what to do with me.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I know. I'm a huge fan.

 

[dpmd]

Doc, I think YOU (and some others) are the ones who are solely focused on race and race-baiting on this issue. If I was focused on race-baiting, I would accuse you of being a racist. How can I be race-baiting when I don't even know what you guys look like or where you're from? I'm giving you all the benefit of the doubt.

You might think you're helping the OP, or anybody else in a similar spot out for that matter, but you aren't. You're suggesting that someone's own hair can "trigger a negative reaction" and that thought process is WRONG on so many levels especially today. How does that comment not say something about how you think professionally? I mean are you triggered when you see a patient with dreads?

Do you remember Trayvon Martin? His hoodie apparently triggered a negative reaction; like the one you are suggesting. Now if he only lost a medical school interview well that wouldn't be the end of the world and we could have told him to hang up the hoodie just for that one night but this kid lost his life! ...for buying candy apparently too. Somebody should have instead given the gunman a lecture on how NOT to be triggered by a hoodie.

Dreadlocks are not the equivalent of a student who wants to come to class wearing a MAGA shirt and matching hat. Hair is biological, the shirt and hat are contrived. You can definitely tell the student that the shirt and hat will "trigger a negative reaction" and they should be avoided because the shirt and hat EXIST to trigger an emotional reaction. I fail to see how you are telling someone that their own hair can trigger a negative reaction when the OP is not wearing dreads to piss you off! It can only trigger a negative reaction if you are anti-dreads or anti-black people. That's really all it comes down to. If you guys really wanted to help him, you could tell him flat out that "dreads are not recommended" at your program (but that brings up legal issues) or simply stay silent on the issue and say the haircuts don't look nice and let him learn by trial and error. Instead, some of you are posting some bizarre advice that dreadlocks equate to unprofessionalism, that dreads are automatically unhygienic, or they are equivalent to the decision of getting tribal tattoos. (The tribal tattoos part was golden)

I'm not ignorant, I know dreadlocks are pushing the envelope so to speak but it really comes down to who you are and how you choose to react to what you see. If the OP comes to an interview with dreads, do you want to focus on his accomplishments and see a future doctor or do you want to focus on the hair and see everything but a future doctor. I choose to see the former and that's how it should be and that's how it is at my school. I also said that's probably not how it really works.

Hey, if you're walking down the street and you see someone with dreads, feel free to run in the opposite direction or clutch your purse a little tighter. I'm not telling you to not react that way if that's what you feel. But in a professional environment, are you seriously going to focus on ethnic hair when you have a piece of paper in front of you saying "the applicant is anything but what his hair conveys to you?"

Also, don't twist my words if you want to quote me next time.

I see the issue. You live in a fantasy land where no one discriminates against anyone for any reason and you think it is more helpful to have others indulge in that fantasy too than for people to discuss some unpleasant realities that they don't agree with but want to help others successfully navigate. Good luck with that strategy.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

I am not arguing with you. I am just reminding everyone to keep it professional and drop the argument. This is the last time I will post a warning.

I didn't say you were. I think this thread brings up a very important issue. But like I said earlier, if you feel the post is turning into an argument you or whoever are free to close it if you wish.

The thread is professional save for that one doc that thinks I'm coming over to beat him up.

 

[puahate]

@mods can you move this to SPF or Topics in healthcare? This discussion is in no way beneficial to urms anymore

 

[deleted480308]

I’m a hit at parties. No one knows what to do with me.

Story of my life.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Story of my life.

I just wish we didn’t disagree so much on the abortion issue. Then we could be friends.
Jk jk... agree to disagree.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

I see the issue. You live in a fantasy land where no one discriminates against anyone for any reason and you think it is more helpful to have others indulge in that fantasy too than for people to discuss some unpleasant realities that they don't agree with but want to help others successfully navigate. Good luck with that strategy.

LOL, doc I hope you are not forgetting that we are not talking about society as a whole here. We are talking about medical school admissions.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Closing because posters ignored repeated warnings to remain professional.