misconception that canadian schools are easier to get into??

[white daisy]

i don't know if there are a lot of US citizen who attend canadian medical school on this forum, but I've been asked numerous times by family and friends from the US whether it is easier to get into a canadian med school and if that's the reason why I decided to go there. i don't know if any of you have encountered this question before but i am just sick of having to explain myself. Canadian schools are NOT easier to get into than US med schools. there are parents from my church who come up to me regularly and ask me how to get into a canadian schools cuz their child don't have the best grades but would still like to go to med school. they are making it sound like canadian schools are like carribean school or something. sigh. anyhow, just wanna know if i am the only one in this situation.

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[jbish]

Where are you from? I went to school in New England and my parents now live in Cincinnati and I've never encountered this obvious mistruth. Most people I've told are impressed if they've heard of McGill and if not are just impressed I'm in medical school (oh, you must be smart). My most frequently asked query is "Oh, are you Canadian?" followed with--if this person is an M.D. or med student--"So will you do your residency in Canada?" and "What made you pick McGill?"

However, I mostly only socialize with people in the health professions industry (I'm working at the Cincinnati Children's Hospital this summer and my only friends in Montreal are classmates) so that probably takes care of some of the ignorance you would encounter with "normal" people in a church setting. Just tell them you picked your school over Harvard because it was a better financial option or something snappish like that so that they shut up. And, you can always answer their question truthfully with "Tell your child that you need a minimum of a 30 MCAT and above a 3.5 GPA to be considered as an international applicant for the Canadian schools and that it is actually more difficult to get into a Canadian school than a U.S. one with about 1/6 acceptance rate versus 1/3 for the U.S. Good luck in the application process!"

 

[JBA]

Without a doubt gaining admission to a Canadian medical school is much harder than gaining acceptance in the US. And being an international and gaining admission in Canada is something to be even more proud of. Next time people from church ask where their sons/daughters with lower grades should go for med school, save them a lot of time and effort and tell them to forget about Canada. It's twice as hard to get in there: Ontario being the most competitive area of North America.

 

[MagiTF]

I've always been under a slightly different impression. I grew up in the UK and over there the general impression I had got was that US medical schools were the best in the world and subsequently also the most selective. I live in the US now and attend an American medical school and I realize that it isn't quite the case. From what I can discern, the best American medical schools are the best in the world. The MSAR shows their MCAT scores and selectivity far above Canadian schools, including UofT and McGill. That being said, there are a LOT of American medical schools, and there are a LOT of crappy ones. So, just based on my perspective, it is quite a bit easier to get into *a* medical school in the US because they frankly just have more slots to fill with prospective students, but harder to get into the very best. While in Canada, they have less schools (and their schools tend to be overall better) with just as many prospectives wanting to get into a medical school.

A good example of the variety in American selectivity in the US: UCLA Medical school has 7056 applicants in 2005, they took 170 (That's about a 2% acceptance rate)... while the University of Mississippi Medical school had 204 applicants in 2005 and accepted 105 (51% acceptance rate).

 

[megaman1x]

i don't know if there are a lot of US citizen who attend canadian medical school on this forum, but I've been asked numerous times by family and friends from the US whether it is easier to get into a canadian med school and if that's the reason why I decided to go there. i don't know if any of you have encountered this question before but i am just sick of having to explain myself. Canadian schools are NOT easier to get into than US med schools. there are parents from my church who come up to me regularly and ask me how to get into a canadian schools cuz their child don't have the best grades but would still like to go to med school. they are making it sound like canadian schools are like carribean school or something. sigh. anyhow, just wanna know if i am the only one in this situation.

I've actually never heard this stigma before. I'm a Canadian and I have been accepted into a Canadian medical school, but anytime I've talked to Americans or other international students, they usually tend to think Canadian schools are indeed harder to get into. So I've never actually come across the misconception you speak of white daisy.

However if I did, I'd be kinda upset by that misconception though for sure.

 

[Scottish Chap]

i don't know if there are a lot of US citizen who attend canadian medical school on this forum, but I've been asked numerous times by family and friends from the US whether it is easier to get into a canadian med school and if that's the reason why I decided to go there. i don't know if any of you have encountered this question before but i am just sick of having to explain myself. Canadian schools are NOT easier to get into than US med schools. there are parents from my church who come up to me regularly and ask me how to get into a canadian schools cuz their child don't have the best grades but would still like to go to med school. they are making it sound like canadian schools are like carribean school or something. sigh. anyhow, just wanna know if i am the only one in this situation.

I usually never post replies to these threads because, like you, I think it's a silly point to dwell upon. Gaining admission to any medical school is quite an achievement. Really.

That said, as an international applicant a couple of years ago, I submit to you that I found one or two of Canadian schools that look at internationals (U.S., U.K, citizens or whatever) tend to be a tad nicer to the internationals who are competing for 'reserved slots' (where you pay higher tuition) than for the ‘general Canadian applicant’. Note: I'm not saying it's easy because it's not, but the method of selection and applicant pools are definitely not the same. The same thing goes on in British medical schools; internationals who are competing for 'reserved slots' have a good chance at securing admission if they are 'academically acceptable' because the tuition is around 20-fold higher than what British students pay. It's a supply and demand phenomenon.

For example, based on numbers alone (GPA, MCAT), the U of T should not have interviewed me two years ago but they did, and I had an infinitely harder time getting into a U.S. school. There's also another frequent poster on SDN whom I know and that person was accepted to McGill's MD/PhD program as an international (U.S. citizen) after two unsuccessful application cycles to M.D. programs in the U.S.

Applying to a Canadian medical school as a Canadian applicant is much harder but, again, it's merely a supply and demand phenomenon. Canadian schools get to be more selective because there are fewer of them and the applicant pool is impressive - hence the reason many Canadians come South of the border for their M.D. or D.O.

 

[xylem29]

I've actually never heard this stigma before. I'm a Canadian and I have been accepted into a Canadian medical school, but anytime I've talked to Americans or other international students, they usually tend to think Canadian schools are indeed harder to get into. So I've never actually come across the misconception you speak of white daisy.

However if I did, I'd be kinda upset by that misconception though for sure.

Spoken like the true premed/med student - no matter how much ppl will like to hide the truth - we're all, some more than others but all have at least a small tint of --> power hungry, ego tripping, competitive nature.

Does it matter if people think our gaining admission into a Canadian school is easier than it really is? Of course it does - that's what legitimatizes our "I made the exclusive club" feelings.

If physician did not have the perceived respect or important position in society's social/econmic pyramid, if they made the same salary as teachers, if med school admissions were not so competitive ( and hence, brining down the prestige and nice feeling one gets when they get accepted), if being a doctor was not glamourized by our society, I would love to see how many life science students would choose "med school".

 

[megaman1x]

Spoken like the true premed/med student - no matter how much ppl will like to hide the truth - we're all, some more than others but all have at least a small tint of --> power hungry, ego tripping, competitive nature.

Do you know why I said my last line of "However if I did, I'd be kinda upset by that misconception though for sure"?

Because I wouldn't like the fact that I tried really hard to get into this med school and for people to look down upon that as the "Easy route" is not something that's really true or something that an accepted student would want to hear. Did I go to the Carribbean? No I didn't. Yet I'm being equated with a similar attitude. That's just something I wouldn't really like.

But you are right as to your other comments regarding the "prestige aspect". If doctors were paid like everyone else, were not respected as much and were treated like any other job....of course less people would want to be in medicine. When you really break down the logistics....a nice chunk of people would not want to go through such extensive schooling and education and have so much work to do later on in their life for only a modestly paying career (unless they were infinately passionate).

But you are right....everyone has some of those tendencies/qualities you mentioned.

 

[bulgethetwine]

Spoken like the true premed/med student - no matter how much ppl will like to hide the truth - we're all, some more than others but all have at least a small tint of --> power hungry, ego tripping, competitive nature.

Exactly. These types of threads make me laugh.

As always, it seems such an important point while you're in medical school (or in the process of applying). Two weeks into residency, you'll realize it doesn't matter!!

Enjoy your time wherever you go to med school. Try not to be so focused on the who-is-best, looking-over-your-shoulder inferiority complex that inevitably haunts all students

 

[xylem29]

Do you know why I said my last line of "However if I did, I'd be kinda upset by that misconception though for sure"?

Because I wouldn't like the fact that I tried really hard to get into this med school and for people to look down upon that as the "Easy route" is not something that's really true or something that an accepted student would want to hear. Did I go to the Carribbean? No I didn't. Yet I'm being equated with a similar attitude. That's just something I wouldn't really like.

But you are right as to your other comments regarding the "prestige aspect". If doctors were paid like everyone else, were not respected as much and were treated like any other job....of course less people would want to be in medicine. When you really break down the logistics....a nice chunk of people would not want to go through such extensive schooling and education and have so much work to do later on in their life for only a modestly paying career (unless they were infinately passionate).

But you are right....everyone has some of those tendencies/qualities you mentioned.

I completley understand where you're coming from - like I said, I would feel the same way if, after gaining admission into a Canadian medical school, people viewed that as the same thing as going carribean or ireland - it's b/c I have you know, premed syndrome. Anyway, I sure didn't mean to take away from your accomplishment, I def know how much hard work and sacrafice ppl have to put in to keep their grades, their ec's, gettin cool with profs for letters, mcat - to gain admission into canadian meds. it ain't easy and you gotta be quite driven to do it.

 

[akinf]

I am a current undergrad applying to med. school this year, and I have never really heard the notion that US medical schools are harder to get into except for the very top medical schools. These include places like Harvard, Stanford, Washington University in STL, and places like that...you get the idea. Getting into a Canadian school is quite hard as I'm sure many admits and rejects will attest, but I don't think this thread started out to lay claim to the fact that one had joined some exclusive club.

However, if you want to talk about hard, talk about not getting your MD in Canada, and then trying to practice in Canada. Good luck there!

 

[winstonm]

The MSAR shows their MCAT scores and selectivity far above Canadian schools, including UofT and McGill.

Toronto's avg accepted GPA was 3.87 last year with a 32 MCAT, but the school uses the MCAT as a flag and doesn't factor it into admissions in any other way.

Mac apparently had an average GPA of over 3.90, which would be the highest in North America.

These numbers will likely increase for the 2010 class as a result of the first batch of double cohort students applying. If you don't know, the double cohort refers to two classes that graduated high school in Ontario at the same time due to the elimination of grade 13/OAC.

 

[xylem29]

Toronto's avg accepted GPA was 3.87 last year with a 32 MCAT, but the school uses the MCAT as a flag and doesn't factor it into admissions in any other way.

Mac apparently had an average GPA of over 3.90, which would be the highest in North America.

These numbers will likely increase for the 2010 class as a result of the first batch of double cohort students applying. If you don't know, the double cohort refers to two classes that graduated high school in Ontario at the same time due to the elimination of grade 13/OAC.

Yea, but is U of T's 3.87 average due to their special formula? Damn that double cohort!

 

[):(]

I have never heard of this misconception from anyone. I live in Seattle and have only known educated areas. Are you from an impoverish area? Tell them to let their kid apply and they will learn.

 

[Matt Laneland]

Let me start off by saying I LOOOOOVVE canada!!! ooohhh canada

ok...first off..to get into college in canada is crazy hard!!

forget about medicine...most of the grad schools in canada care so tough to get into......and even harder to stay in!!

who the heck thinks they're easy to get into??

matt
-------
www.physicianliving.com

 

[RowingAtDusk]

I'm from CA and was only admitted to the only Canadian school I applied to while being rejected from 30 US schools (very wide range - many more safe schools than reaches including Drexel, SLU, Temple, NYMC). I received 2 US interviews, 1 WL, 2 ultimate rejects... this was a handful of years back.. and my stats were 3.65, 30 O. But on average, I'd say that my results are not typical. I'd agree that Canadian schools are more difficult to get into for Americans. The whole process is so random.

 

[akinf]

I'm from CA and was only admitted to the only Canadian school I applied to while being rejected from 30 US schools (very wide range - many more safe schools than reaches including Drexel, SLU, Temple, NYMC). I received 2 US interviews, 1 WL, 2 ultimate rejects... this was a handful of years back.. and my stats were 3.65, 30 O. But on average, I'd say that my results are not typical. I'd agree that Canadian schools are more difficult to get into for Americans. The whole process is so random.

That is quite rare...I don't think you'd see that happening very often today either. The most extreme I've probably seen is someone getting in after their 3rd try with around a 3.75 and 27Q on the MCAT. But note, got in after their THIRD try. Generally speaking, I think med. schools in Canada tend to look at reapplicants a bit nicer.

 

[MacGyver]

Harvard Med acceptance rate hovers at about 4%

Where can I find the accept rate stats for hte Canadian schools?

 

[trustwomen]

Harvard Med acceptance rate hovers at about 4%

Where can I find the accept rate stats for hte Canadian schools?

In 2004, McMaster had 4,150 applications for 138 spots. That put the acceptance rate at [pulls out calculator] hmmmm.... 3.3%. http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/pubrel/mmi.htm

I guess that accepting international (i.e. non-citizen)students, as do Harvard and McMaster, makes your number of applicants swell drastically and makes your acceptance rate look artifically low. Who woulda thunk it?

Stop trying to stir up trouble.

 

[trustwomen]

I'm from CA and was only admitted to the only Canadian school I applied to while being rejected from 30 US schools (very wide range - many more safe schools than reaches including Drexel, SLU, Temple, NYMC). I received 2 US interviews, 1 WL, 2 ultimate rejects... this was a handful of years back.. and my stats were 3.65, 30 O. But on average, I'd say that my results are not typical. I'd agree that Canadian schools are more difficult to get into for Americans. The whole process is so random.

See, I'd suspect that this may have had something to do with personal statement or extracurriculars, which American schools favour far more than Canadian schools. Either that or you're just an unlucky Californian who had to apply mostly out-of-state (lots of those, kind of like unlucky Ontarians here). If you'd been a Texan you'd have gotten in, no problem.

Your grades would normally not pose a problem at getting into an American school, AFAIK. Also recall that in some cases, it's easier for Americans to get into Canadian schools than it is for Canadians to get into those same Canadian schools! (The Canadian schools really love that international tuition).

 

[E-Raist]

Take any culture and take a closer look and you'll always find sub-cultures. It's interesting that such a small fraction of students strive to pursure a career in medicine, and that ~33-50% of the applicants are admitted to schools and even among this select elite group, there continues to be a sense of snobbishness/rivalry. This isn't unique to universities or medical school, this is just a part of group dynamics.

In the end, all students undergo medical educations, residencies, board certification and then become full fledged unfettered practitioners of medicine. In any sector (whether it be medical, technical, industrial, financial or whathaveyou) your achievements will be noted and you'll build a name and reputation for yourself. Your work and achievements will be the aspect of you that people will notice and remember.

On a more related note, I'm also curious as I'm currently living in Canada, (with the hopes of becoming a citizen) and am hoping to attend med school in Canada. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can get in. Best of luck to everyone.

 

[E-Raist]

Take any culture and take a closer look and you'll always find sub-cultures. It's interesting that such a small fraction of students strive to pursure a career in medicine, and that ~33-50% of the applicants are admitted to schools and even among this select elite group, there continues to be a sense of snobbishness/rivalry. This isn't unique to universities or medical school, this is just a part of group dynamics.

In the end, all students undergo medical educations, residencies, board certification and then become full fledged unfettered practitioners of medicine. In any sector (whether it be medical, technical, industrial, financial or whathaveyou) your achievements will be noted and you'll build a name and reputation for yourself. Your work and achievements will be the aspect of you that people will notice and remember.

On a more related note, I'm also curious as I'm currently living in Canada, (with the hopes of becoming a citizen) and am hoping to attend med school in Canada. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can get in. Best of luck to everyone.

 

[coastal]

Someone mentioned mac's acceptance rate is 3.3%. I don't really care to back this up, and someone can hunt down the statisctics and try to prove me wrong if they like, but I would suspect Mac had way more applicants than the other Canadian medical schools, thus driving down the acceptance rate. This would be b/c mac does not require the mcat so lots of people who wouldn't even bother applying to schools with stricter mcat requirements toss in their apps to mac. I've also heard of many people who "haven't written the mcat yet" but who plan to apply to mac because they've heard they don't need it. Finally, the 3.90 gpa thing is new for them, if you go back a few years the purely academic criteria (ie mcat and gpa) were far and away the laxest in canada (again, why they got so many applications). Not trying to mac bash, just avoiding studying.

 

[trustwomen]

Someone mentioned mac's acceptance rate is 3.3%. I don't really care to back this up, and someone can hunt down the statisctics and try to prove me wrong if they like, but I would suspect Mac had way more applicants than the other Canadian medical schools, thus driving down the acceptance rate. This would be b/c mac does not require the mcat so lots of people who wouldn't even bother applying to schools with stricter mcat requirements toss in their apps to mac. I've also heard of many people who "haven't written the mcat yet" but who plan to apply to mac because they've heard they don't need it. Finally, the 3.90 gpa thing is new for them, if you go back a few years the purely academic criteria (ie mcat and gpa) were far and away the laxest in canada (again, why they got so many applications). Not trying to mac bash, just avoiding studying.

I actually provided the link in my post, if you want. The thing is, Mac also accepted international students that year, which gets you a whole lot of extra applications from people outside North America, making the acceptance rate look "artificially" low. Harvard also accepts non-residents. That was my sole point in mentioning Mac's rate, cause some American tried to claim that Canadian schools are not harder to get into - because "Harvard's acceptance rate is only 4%".

Mac does get a whole lot of applications, for the reasons you mentioned plus the international thing (though I think they don't take internationals anymore). I agree that acceptance rates do not determine the quality of a school (McGill, f'rinstance, has a very high acceptance rate, because of an unusually low number of applications, but is just as good a school as Mac)

All Canadian schools are good. And they are harder to get into than American schools. 50% of American applicants get in somewhere every year, vs. 30% (I think) of Canadians. Number of schools here (low, low, low) is an important factor in this.

 

[RowingAtDusk]

See, I'd suspect that this may have had something to do with personal statement or extracurriculars, which American schools favour far more than Canadian schools. Either that or you're just an unlucky Californian who had to apply mostly out-of-state (lots of those, kind of like unlucky Ontarians here). If you'd been a Texan you'd have gotten in, no problem.

Your grades would normally not pose a problem at getting into an American school, AFAIK. Also recall that in some cases, it's easier for Americans to get into Canadian schools than it is for Canadians to get into those same Canadian schools! (The Canadian schools really love that international tuition).

Yep.. international tuition is an attraction, but in all honesty... I saved $$$$$$$$ going to a Canadian school compared to any non-public-CA school I could have gained admission to. I can't begin to tell you how pleased I am about the quality of clinical training I received... I actually choose to stay in Canada for residency as well. I'm now back in CA working for a year off just to make some $$$ before starting fellowship next summer.

 

[trustwomen]

Yep.. international tuition is an attraction, but in all honesty... I saved $$$$$$$$ going to a Canadian school compared to any non-public-CA school I could have gained admission to. I can't begin to tell you how pleased I am about the quality of clinical training I received... I actually choose to stay in Canada for residency as well. I'm now back in CA working for a year off just to make some $$$ before starting fellowship next summer.

I meant that the tuition you paid, as an international student, was much higher than what the Canadian school would get from a Canadian student. It's financially attractive for the school's perspective to get more international students (which is why provincial governments have to restrict the spots).

And, of course, it's also attractive for the American students because US schools are so overpriced that even our international tuition is cheaper for them than studying in the US would be. (Like you say.) And our lack of malpractice woes make our clinical training that much better.

Glad you enjoyed your stay. Wish we could convince you to come back and practice up here.

 

[RowingAtDusk]

I meant that the tuition you paid, as an international student, was much higher than what the Canadian school would get from a Canadian student.QUOTE]

Yep, I know that's what you meant

But definitely.. I loved the clinical acumen up north... and how I didn't have to spend EONS of my time doing paperwork while trudging through insurance papers, blah blah blah to see patients. With that being said, call was brutal without caps, no night float, having nights where I'd admit up to almost 30! Without taking my Royal College exam... and just doing ABIM I think I can come back to non-BC, Ontario provinces to practice within reason. I'm keeping it in the back of my mind We'll see what the future holds.

 

[Scottish Chap]

It's financially attractive for the school's perspective to get more international students (which is why provincial governments have to restrict the spots).
Agreed. This was my experience. It's entirely different for internationals. An international applicant faces less competition and 'red tape' at certain Canadian medical schools compared to applying to U.S. medical schools.

 

[Stupor]

In 2004, McMaster had 4,150 applications for 138 spots. That put the acceptance rate at [pulls out calculator] hmmmm.... 3.3%. http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/pubrel/mmi.htm

That is not the acceptance rate. The actual rate should be higher, as McMaster must have offered spots to more than 138 people to take into account people who would decline the offer (in favour of U of T, Queen's, the US, whatever).

You can see the two ways of calculation in this article:
http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/harvard/
At the beginning of the article, Harvard's admission rate is calculated at "under 3 per cent", which only considers the number of spots available (165) and the total number of applicants (~5400). At the bottom of the article where the school's actual statistics are listed, the number of applicants accepted is 4.9%. That is, Harvard offered spots to ~265 (4.9% of 5400) applicants, 100 more than the number of spots (165) available at the school in anticipation of some declinations (in favour of Yale, Stanford, Einstein, whatever).

 

[Jasmine26]

Well Im a Canadian grad student at McGill, and Im applying to mostly American medical schools, cause they are A LOT easier to get into. There are only around 17 Canadian medical schools and 3 of them are french, so there are less choices and way too many applicants making it extremely competitive. You need a lot higher GPA, MCAT scores plus volunteering etc, to get into a Canadian School then an American one.

 

[CatsandCradles]

i don't know if there are a lot of US citizen who attend canadian medical school on this forum, but I've been asked numerous times by family and friends from the US whether it is easier to get into a canadian med school and if that's the reason why I decided to go there. i don't know if any of you have encountered this question before but i am just sick of having to explain myself. Canadian schools are NOT easier to get into than US med schools. there are parents from my church who come up to me regularly and ask me how to get into a canadian schools cuz their child don't have the best grades but would still like to go to med school. they are making it sound like canadian schools are like carribean school or something. sigh. anyhow, just wanna know if i am the only one in this situation.

From what I can gather on SDN, you are correct - it is a misconception that Canadian programs are easier to get into than US ones.

This is why we see all these "I'm a Canadian trying to get into US schools" threads.

The Canadian programs are also accredited by LCME - which is the same organization as US programs.