Military pay

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ArmyJawBreaker

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The military has a bad reputation of underpaying compared to the civilian sector. But when you do a 4 year oral surgery residency, like I did, in the US Army you are paid well above what a civilian will receive. I had the luxury of having my wife stay home and raise our children during my 4 year residency. Many civilian couples must rely upon on their spouse's income to make the income during their 4 year residency.

So, if you are interested to know what you will make in the military, include pay, bonuses and housing allowance I would more than happy to break down how much your income will be in the US military. Remember, nearly 40% of your income is tax exempt/ tax free from federal income tax and does not need to be reported on your federal taxes. It is a win/ win situation for US military residencies.

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So someone asked me what an Army oral surgeon is paid. So I will take myself for example, with 8 years in the US Army. All this information is public knowledge and found online.

MONTHLY PAY:

Basic pay (8 years): $5831.70
Basic Allowance of Subsistence: $223.04
Basic Allowance of Housing: $1761.00
Variable Special Pay: $1000.00

So monthly, I receive $8815.74. Every April, I receive my Dental Additional Special Pay of $12,000 and every October I receive my Incentive Special Pay (ONLY PAID TO ORAL SURGEONS) of $30,000.

So my gross annual income is: $147,788.88

Of that amount, all of the Basic Allowance of Subsistence and Housing are tax free, so my federal tax is only based on $123,980.40 which allows me to save more when I file my taxes.

Hope this HELPS!
 
thats not bad at all, but keep in mind oral surgeons make about double that in private practice. they do have a lot more headaches and responsibilities, but $147 for an OS is towards the low end of the spectrum for an oral surgeon
 
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thats not bad at all, but keep in mind oral surgeons make about double that in private practice. they do have a lot more headaches and responsibilities, but $147 for an OS is towards the low end of the spectrum for an oral surgeon

To sweeten the pot, this coming October with the new fiscal budget, they are implementing a $100,000 per year bonus for oral surgeons to commit to another 4 years in the service. So, if your time is up and you want to stay in the military you can sign a commitment letter and get $100,000 more per year for a total of $400,000 over 4 years.

So if you add this bonus into the mix, my pay come October could be at $247,000, just shy of a quarter of a million per year.

omaralt, I know the going rate for surgeons on the outside and $247,000 per year is definitely competitive with the advantage of not having the hassle of managing a practice and all the business aspect of running a practice.
 
just shy of a quarter of a million per year.

And, that's not even counting the benies such as free dental, medical, paid 30 days leave, unlimited sick leave, paid federal holidays, free training, military-related opportunities, gi bill, tuition assistance, et cetera...

or, simply serving in the military and enjoying the camaraderie you won't find anywhere else.

But, if you're signing up just for the financial aspect of it--you are wrong and more than likely will not like it during the payback, in my opinion.
 
So someone asked me what an Army oral surgeon is paid. So I will take myself for example, with 8 years in the US Army. All this information is public knowledge and found online.

MONTHLY PAY:

Basic pay (8 years): $5831.70
Basic Allowance of Subsistence: $223.04
Basic Allowance of Housing: $1761.00
Variable Special Pay: $1000.00

So monthly, I receive $8815.74. Every April, I receive my Dental Additional Special Pay of $12,000 and every October I receive my Incentive Special Pay (ONLY PAID TO ORAL SURGEONS) of $30,000.

So my gross annual income is: $147,788.88

Of that amount, all of the Basic Allowance of Subsistence and Housing are tax free, so my federal tax is only based on $123,980.40 which allows me to save more when I file my taxes.

Hope this HELPS!

Jawbreaker has a great idea. My pay would be the same as all other specialties. I also have been in 8 yrs - but had a couple years in the national guard so I get paid at 10 yrs. As a Comp dentist (2 yr AEGD) I currently make:

Base Pay $6230.10
BAS $223.04 (food) non-taxed
BAH $2718 (housing for DC area) non-taxed
Language Pay $300
Board certified pay $208.33
Variable Special Pay $1000

monthly total - $10679.47

Plus as jawbreaker mentioned the annual pays
multi-year retention bonus - $50,000
Annual special pay (DASP) - $12,000

My total is $190,000 for this year. That is for only 8 years out of school with no debt. Compare that to most general dentists (or even other specialists since there salary would be the same) on the outside and I think you will see it is very competative.

As a comp dentist since my payback was done after 6 years in, I have been making a substantial salary since then.
 
Jawbreaker has a great idea. My pay would be the same as all other specialties. I also have been in 8 yrs - but had a couple years in the national guard so I get paid at 10 yrs. As a Comp dentist (2 yr AEGD) I currently make:

Base Pay $6230.10
BAS $223.04 (food) non-taxed
BAH $2718 (housing for DC area) non-taxed
Language Pay $300
Board certified pay $208.33
Variable Special Pay $1000

monthly total - $10679.47

Plus as jawbreaker mentioned the annual pays
multi-year retention bonus - $50,000
Annual special pay (DASP) - $12,000

My total is $190,000 for this year. That is for only 8 years out of school with no debt. Compare that to most general dentists (or even other specialists since there salary would be the same) on the outside and I think you will see it is very competative.

As a comp dentist since my payback was done after 6 years in, I have been making a substantial salary since then.

Just curious, are medical/dental officers the highest paid soldiers in the army? At 190k, that is very competitive especially for general dentistry. Krmower, how does Language pay work? Is it one test qualify for earning this special pay?
 
Just curious, are medical/dental officers the highest paid soldiers in the army? At 190k, that is very competitive especially for general dentistry. Krmower, how does Language pay work? Is it one test qualify for earning this special pay?

They are some of the highest. Remember - that is the pay for a mid-level officer. You can imagine (or quickly figure out) what the senior officers are getting paid. Also add in the pension if you do the 20 yrs and it is not a bad way to go.

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2010WebPayTable34.pdf

Language pay is for individuals who speak one of the qualifying languages that the Army pays for. They have the languages broken down into different categories and pay will vary a little between them.

http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/special-pay/military-foreign-language-proficiency-pay
 
Being a former Army dentist, I am a bit jealous at how much more they are getting paid now as opposed to when I was in. They have made some huge increases in pay over the last couple of years across the board not only for specialists, but also for recent dental school grads.

When I was in the Army, my peers would often complain about how much less they were making compared to their friends from dental school. What they didn't take into account was that the stipend and scholarship they received during dental school should be added to their active duty pay to really compare what they made to what their dental school classmates made. For example, when I was on active duty I made about $60,000 per year. My dental school scholarship was about $20,000 per year, and the stipend was about $15,000. So really I made about $95,000 per year. My dental school classmates didn't have any stipend and racked up about $160,000 in student loans if they paid in-state tuition and even more if they paid out-of-state tuition. With the recent increases in pay and rising tuition costs, current Army dentists make quite a bit more than I did.

The military dentists don't really make much compared to civilian dentists (without figuring in HPSP) until about 6 years into service when they make major. At that time they get pay raises for making major and also their years in service. Usually about the same time they are either completing residency or residency payback, so they become eligible for the huge retention bonuses around 6-8 years in. If one doesn't specialize or do the 2yr AEGD though, you will never get the huge retention bonuses and make a competitive salary, so it is best to decide on a specialty early or do the 2 yr AEGD as soon as you can.
 
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Jawbreaker has a great idea. My pay would be the same as all other specialties. I also have been in 8 yrs - but had a couple years in the national guard so I get paid at 10 yrs. As a Comp dentist (2 yr AEGD) I currently make:

Base Pay $6230.10
BAS $223.04 (food) non-taxed
BAH $2718 (housing for DC area) non-taxed
Language Pay $300
Board certified pay $208.33
Variable Special Pay $1000

monthly total - $10679.47

Plus as jawbreaker mentioned the annual pays
multi-year retention bonus - $50,000
Annual special pay (DASP) - $12,000

My total is $190,000 for this year. That is for only 8 years out of school with no debt. Compare that to most general dentists (or even other specialists since there salary would be the same) on the outside and I think you will see it is very competative.

As a comp dentist since my payback was done after 6 years in, I have been making a substantial salary since then.

Did you do the "comp gp speciality" right after dental school, before your initial payback, or did you do it after your original ~4 year payback?
 
Did you do the "comp gp speciality" right after dental school, before your initial payback, or did you do it after your original ~4 year payback?

I did it right out of school. Anyone who does the 2 yr AEGD within the first 2 yrs of graduating dental school will complete their obligation by their 6th year just like I did.
 
No doubt krmower is raking in the big bucks... but keep in mind that he and armyjawbreaker have been in 10 years. Also the big difference between the pay between the two of them is that ajb doesn't seem to have taken the multiyear retention bonus (which has been getting bigger and bigger each year), this is a contract, that when signed obligates you to a set number of additional years, with a bigger payout the longer you stay in.

Making what they're making is excellent, in considering the fact that you don't have to worry about managing a practice. The only worry is the occasional deployment.
 
No doubt krmower is raking in the big bucks... but keep in mind that he and armyjawbreaker have been in 10 years. Also the big difference between the pay between the two of them is that ajb doesn't seem to have taken the multiyear retention bonus (which has been getting bigger and bigger each year), this is a contract, that when signed obligates you to a set number of additional years, with a bigger payout the longer you stay in.

Making what they're making is excellent, in considering the fact that you don't have to worry about managing a practice. The only worry is the occasional deployment.

I have been in the US Army Dental Corps for 8 years and have not signed a multi-year retention bonus because I am paying back my oral surgery residency that I completed last June. I do get a $30,000 bonus that ONLY oral surgeons receive each year for being surgeons in the Army.
 
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No doubt krmower is raking in the big bucks... but keep in mind that he and armyjawbreaker have been in 10 years. Also the big difference between the pay between the two of them is that ajb doesn't seem to have taken the multiyear retention bonus (which has been getting bigger and bigger each year), this is a contract, that when signed obligates you to a set number of additional years, with a bigger payout the longer you stay in.

Making what they're making is excellent, in considering the fact that you don't have to worry about managing a practice. The only worry is the occasional deployment.

There is another worry. I think the worst thing about being in the Army for a career would be the occasional PCS to one of the many undesireable Army posts. There are a few posts I have heard good things about, such as Lewis, Carson, Ft Sam, and Hawaii, but there are a lot horrible places too. I spent my three years at Campbell and Riley, both of which are in the middle of nowhere and are pretty crappy places to live. I've heard bad things about Polk, Leonard Woods, Bliss, Hood, Irwin and others. I'm sure there are people out there that like living in those places, but the general consensus is that most Army bases are not desireable places to live. And since everyone wants to go to the few nice posts, it can be very difficult to get stationed there. When I PCSed after my AEGD they did not even let us put Carson, Lewis, or Hawaii on our wish lists.
 
Here is the pay for a Captain straight out of dental school:

Base pay: $3,660.60 (O3 pay at <2years)
BAH $1500 (estimate for the average Army post)
BAS $223.04 (same for all officers)
VSP $250

Monthly total: $5643.64

DASP $10000 (yearly $10,000 paid as a lump sum)

Yearly total: $77,723.68


This is a lot more than I was making when I was in the Army. The DASP was only like $3000 or $4000 and my BAH was only $800 per month. So at least they are making an effort to pay young dentists better.
 
There is another worry. I think the worst thing about being in the Army for a career would be the occasional PCS to one of the many undesireable Army posts. There are a few posts I have heard good things about, such as Lewis, Carson, Ft Sam, and Hawaii, but there are a lot horrible places too. I spent my three years at Campbell and Riley, both of which are in the middle of nowhere and are pretty crappy places to live. I've heard bad things about Polk, Leonard Woods, Bliss, Hood, Irwin and others. I'm sure there are people out there that like living in those places, but the general consensus is that most Army bases are not desireable places to live. And since everyone wants to go to the few nice posts, it can be very difficult to get stationed there. When I PCSed after my AEGD they did not even let us put Carson, Lewis, or Hawaii on our wish lists.

All in the eye of the beholder. I don't think any base is horrible. Some are more remote than others, but the base typically tries to make up for that by what they offer.

I work with 2 dentists who have been at Campbell and loved it, and want to go back. Irwin ends up being very desireable for anyone from the west coast that wants to be close to family. I don't think it is as simple as "here are the crappy bases and here are the good bases". I have personally visited (not lived) many of those bases you mentioned, and I have not gotten the same feedback that you have stated from the dentists that are stationed there.

That is one of the nice things that the assignments officers will do, is give you several choices and ask you which of the following you want to go to. It's always nice to have options. You are correct that you may not get any of your "top 3", but at least you are given choices.
 
There is another worry. I think the worst thing about being in the Army for a career would be the occasional PCS to one of the many undesireable Army posts. There are a few posts I have heard good things about, such as Lewis, Carson, Ft Sam, and Hawaii, but there are a lot horrible places too. I spent my three years at Campbell and Riley, both of which are in the middle of nowhere and are pretty crappy places to live. I've heard bad things about Polk, Leonard Woods, Bliss, Hood, Irwin and others. I'm sure there are people out there that like living in those places, but the general consensus is that most Army bases are not desireable places to live. And since everyone wants to go to the few nice posts, it can be very difficult to get stationed there. When I PCSed after my AEGD they did not even let us put Carson, Lewis, or Hawaii on our wish lists.

I was stationed at Fort Campbell for 2 years and my wife and I would go back in a heartbeat. The bottom line with everything in life is:

"It is what you make it."

We are now stationed at Fort Stewart, Georgia and I heard tons of people saying they didn't like it here before we came here. But, after almost a year here we love it and my wife wants to settle down here if and when we get out of the Army or retire.

"It is what you make it."
 
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Jawbreaker has a great idea. My pay would be the same as all other specialties. I also have been in 8 yrs - but had a couple years in the national guard so I get paid at 10 yrs. As a Comp dentist (2 yr AEGD) I currently make:

Base Pay $6230.10
BAS $223.04 (food) non-taxed
BAH $2718 (housing for DC area) non-taxed
Language Pay $300
Board certified pay $208.33
Variable Special Pay $1000

monthly total - $10679.47

Plus as jawbreaker mentioned the annual pays
multi-year retention bonus - $50,000
Annual special pay (DASP) - $12,000

My total is $190,000 for this year. That is for only 8 years out of school with no debt. Compare that to most general dentists (or even other specialists since there salary would be the same) on the outside and I think you will see it is very competative.

As a comp dentist since my payback was done after 6 years in, I have been making a substantial salary since then.


Noticed you got a language payment each month. Just wondering what language you spoke and how to go about getting that pay if one also spoke Spanish?
 
I did it right out of school. Anyone who does the 2 yr AEGD within the first 2 yrs of graduating dental school will complete their obligation by their 6th year just like I did.

Do you mind me asking about the competitiveness of your application to get that right out of school? (If it's more comfortable a PM would work here). I'm curious what it would take on Boards, GPA, Class rank to be competitive for the 2 year AEGD. Thanks.
 
Noticed you got a language payment each month. Just wondering what language you spoke and how to go about getting that pay if one also spoke Spanish?

Spanish is in the "dominant in the force" category, so they don't offer foreign language proficiency pay unless your job requires you to speak it (i.e. linguist).
 
Basic pay (<2 years): $3660.60
Basic Allowance of Subsistence: $223.04
Basic Allowance of Housing (biggest variable): $1500.00 (average)
Variable Special Pay: $250.00 (intern <3 years less)
Additional Special pay $10,000 lump sum

Pay per month (not including ASP): $5,633.64

Gross per year: $77603.68

This is the salary most general dentists will receive (without prior military experience). It's not bad but probably 3/4 to 1/2 of what civilians will be earning in their first year out of school. The key is to remember the benefit of having 0 loans and stipend for 4 years. That in itself makes the financial aspect of HPSP great.
 
Do you mind me asking about the competitiveness of your application to get that right out of school? (If it's more comfortable a PM would work here). I'm curious what it would take on Boards, GPA, Class rank to be competitive for the 2 year AEGD. Thanks.

In the Army they don't release that information so only the people who sit on the board (9 individuals) will know.

When I applied they were not filling all 20 spots, so most people that applied got in. That is different now, they are filling all the spots - so it will be more competative.
 
I'm prior Navy 2001-2004. Here is what I made after the Navy. I am a solo GP now.

2004 (Navy)-$77,000
2005 Associate-$98,000
2009 Owner-$285,000

I produce about $700,000 with OH of about 55%. I don't deploy, work a 4-day week, and take 3 weeks vacation/yr combined w/ CE often to reduce cost. I also have super assistants. I hated having new DTs (HMs now) or those who just weren't motivated. I can see kids, which seemed to be taboo in the service. I think the average dentist according to the ADA last year netted $175,000.

I don't think the military pay is near as competitive. Now, here is why you stay in: #1-IMO-service to country and those who serve + camaraderie + general pride that comes with service
#2-decent, stable pay with a guaranteed retirement
#3-overseas service (see the world on Uncle Sam's dime)
#4-healthcare-decent and at no cost-I pay $920/mo for mine, but also have had surgery on my wife and daughter thus pre-existing conditions for other plans. Most for family run around $650/mo.

I don't think anyone stays for the military perks like free entrance to Disneyworld or a baseball game. It's nice, but not why you stay.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

A specialist easily makes 1M production on 35% OH. You do the math on them.
 
jaw breaker won't be eligible for a multi-year retention bonus for three more years. at that point he'll make about $200K a year. not bad, until you consider the fact that he's an oral surgeon who's will have been out of residency for four years and has been out of dental school about 12 years. staying in the army until retirement would, financially, be a huge loss for him. he can make a heck of a lot more in private practice by getting out sooner, than he will lose by not getting a full retirement check from the army.

krmower isn't making bad money, but if you compared his salary to dentists that have been out of school as long as he has, it doesn't look so hot anymore.

moral of the story:

don't join the army if you care about your salary being competitive with a private practice counterpart. it will eat you up and make you bitter. :)
 
UMKC is making the point I was trying to make. Yet with fewer words. I just put in numbers to compare.

Do NOT stay in the military for the pay. Maybe as an O-5/O-6 you'll make comparable income to the average, but it'll take you 15 years to get there. By then your civilian colleagues are coasting in their prime money making years.

Not to mention to make O-5/O-6 you basically become a "paper dentist". Clinicians don't seem to advance in the military, unless in a critical need (OMFS).

I'm going to list my other beef and that is those who come in wondering if they'll deploy. Do NOT join the military if you don't want to deploy. It seems nearly all that come in have that concern, but you if you plan to deploy after residency, then when you get that "surprise" from the detailer it's a bit easier to take. Also, plan your next step. Research ships, bases, FMF, whatever....have an idea of where/what you'd like to do and press that with the detailer. It's a lot easier to be in a place you want to be if you deploy vs. being sent somewhere you don't want to go and deploying from there.
 
jaw breaker won't be eligible for a multi-year retention bonus for three more years. at that point he'll make about $200K a year.
That is not entirely true. When I am eligible for the multi-year retention, with the new oral surgery incentive I will be making about $260K a year.
 
That is not entirely true. When I am eligible for the multi-year retention, with the new oral surgery incentive I will be making about $260K a year.

and thats great money. however the OS i refer to (out of school 7 yrs) is making about double that working 3.5 days/week. both ways are fine, but what the previous posters and myself are trying to say is that dont do military dentistry for the money. do it if you have a prior interest in the military and have an interest in serving your country. i personally (and my wife) dont like to move around and i didnt want to deploy, and thats why i ended up not taking the air force scholarship. very hard to refuse, and now that i'm paying back loans, i'm happy i didnt take it :)
 
That is not entirely true. When I am eligible for the multi-year retention, with the new oral surgery incentive I will be making about $260K a year.

so you will be a surgeon, four years out of residency, and about 11 years out of dental school making $260K/ year.....and you will have a four-year commitment - keeping you at that same income level until a point where you've been out of residency for 8 years and out of dental school for 15 years.
 
I figure this is as good a place to ask this as any. I was looking at the military pay charts and comparing O-3 and O-3E and it seems there is no difference in pay at all between the two... was I looking at a chart with typos, or is that accurate? (If it's accurate, what's the point of O-3E at all?)
 
I figure this is as good a place to ask this as any. I was looking at the military pay charts and comparing O-3 and O-3E and it seems there is no difference in pay at all between the two... was I looking at a chart with typos, or is that accurate? (If it's accurate, what's the point of O-3E at all?)

You are right there is no difference. Basically you are coming in with your prior service time counted towards pay. So as an entering O-3 if you had done 4 yrs - your base salary will be $4951 compared to your friends coming in with no experience that will be at $3711.
 
So it doesn't seem like it is the best deal financially to stay in the military. But is it one of the better financial decisions to do the military and do the 4-year service so you don't have that debt and then get out when the 4-years is up?

Hopefully I will be getting the Army scholarship here soon. But to me it seems like dentists now are taking on average 10-15 years to pay off their debt (and some are on the 30-year plan). So I think I'd rather be 30 with some money in the bank and no debt than being 26 and having $350,000 in debt with an 8% interest rate. Plus, I'll have that extra 4 years of experience.

One more thing, would it be better to do the 4-year service and then do a civilian residency? Or would it be better to do the residency in the Army, add 2-4 more years to your service, and then go out into private practice?
 
If you will be attending a private dental school or an OOS dental school, where you will come out several hundred thousand dollars in debt, then yes, doing the military route is the best option. You will come out head financially by taking the scholarship.

As far as doing a residency, if you can get one within the first couple years out of dental school, doing the residency in the military will be beneficial. You draw you active duty O-3 pay while in the residency program -far above any stipend you would get in a civilian program. Plus, you maintain all military benefits while in the program.


So it doesn't seem like it is the best deal financially to stay in the military. But is it one of the better financial decisions to do the military and do the 4-year service so you don't have that debt and then get out when the 4-years is up?

Hopefully I will be getting the Army scholarship here soon. But to me it seems like dentists now are taking on average 10-15 years to pay off their debt (and some are on the 30-year plan). So I think I'd rather be 30 with some money in the bank and no debt than being 26 and having $350,000 in debt with an 8% interest rate. Plus, I'll have that extra 4 years of experience.

One more thing, would it be better to do the 4-year service and then do a civilian residency? Or would it be better to do the residency in the Army, add 2-4 more years to your service, andthen go out into private practice?
 
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The military is NEVER the option if you want to go where the money is. That being said, to be free of a lot of debt is always a good thing. Absolutely do an AEGD/GPR in the service! The training, experience, and confidence you will gain from either program, I guarantee you, is above what you'd see in a civilian program.

If you do into the service, learn as much as you can and get to know those sailors, soldiers, and marines you'll have the privilege to treat. Make the most of your time in the service irregardless of whether you stay or go and you will be a better dentist and person for it.
 
Thanks for your insight, Hedgy.

I am prior military with 6 years service. I have been thinking about the miltary for a while, and this thread has helped me decide which path I want to take.

I was playing with some numbers and I couldn't justify, financially or emotionally, going into the military as a dentist givent its risk vs reward (ie; PCS and deployments/being away from family).

This is hypothetical, and is all in my opinion...

At first, I thought there was an advantage of joining the miltary and doing 4 years for the loan repayment aspect. After that I would go private practice. In short, I wanted to use the military to pay for my loans.

If I decide to do the military path, I will make 70,75,80,85K a year for the first four years. That comes out to 310k after four years without debt.

If I decide to do the civilian path, I will make 140k a year for four years. This comes out to 560k after four years with 250k in debt. After four years, I will gross 310k.

After four years I will be roughly in the same spot, but without worrying about being deployed and being away from my family.

But, like others have already said--There are many other reasons why the military may be the right choice. It's just not for me.
 
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Thanks for your insight, Hedgy.

I am prior military with 6 years service. I have been thinking about the miltary for a while, and this thread has helped me decide which path I want to take.

I was playing with some numbers and I couldn't justify, financially or emotionally, going into the military as a dentist givent its risk vs reward (ie; PCS and deployments/being away from family).

This is hypothetical, and is all in my opinion...

At first, I thought there was an advantage of joining the miltary and doing 4 years for the loan repayment aspect. After that I would go private practice. In short, I wanted to use the military to pay for my loans.

If I decide to do the military path, I will make 70,75,80,85K a year for the first four years. That comes out to 310k after four years without debt.

If I decide to do the cilivan path, I will make 140k a year for four years. This comes out to 560k after four years with 250k in debt. After four years, I will gross 310k.

After four years I will be roughly in the same spot, but without worrying about being deployed and being away from my family.

But, like others have already said--There are many other reasons why the military may be the right choice. It's just not for me.


Being prior service (as I was) you probably understand more than most what it means to be in the military, and to be deployed and away from your family. It is good that you factor this into the equation.

Have you been accepted into dental school yet? I ask because if you should end up attending a more expensive private school, it can change the numbers you used in your analysis drastically. You also have to factor in the interest on your loans, and the fact that in private practice, IF you can average 140k a year your first 4 years (definitely do-able, unless you plan on practicing in a saturated area like California or Nevada), you will also pay MUCH MORE of your income in taxes than you would if you were in the military.
 
Thanks for your insight, Hedgy.

I am prior military with 6 years service. I have been thinking about the miltary for a while, and this thread has helped me decide which path I want to take.

I was playing with some numbers and I couldn't justify, financially or emotionally, going into the military as a dentist givent its risk vs reward (ie; PCS and deployments/being away from family).

This is hypothetical, and is all in my opinion...

At first, I thought there was an advantage of joining the miltary and doing 4 years for the loan repayment aspect. After that I would go private practice. In short, I wanted to use the military to pay for my loans.

If I decide to do the military path, I will make 70,75,80,85K a year for the first four years. That comes out to 310k after four years without debt.

If I decide to do the cilivan path, I will make 140k a year for four years. This comes out to 560k after four years with 250k in debt. After four years, I will gross 310k.

After four years I will be roughly in the same spot, but without worrying about being deployed and being away from my family.

But, like others have already said--There are many other reasons why the military may be the right choice. It's just not for me.

Does your quote of 250k debt include interest (and I believe interest will accrue while in dental school too, though not entirely sure), and how you can guarantee 140k a year (including cost of food, rent/mortgage, health and practice insurances, equipment, increased depending on family size; yes I realize you said gross, but that number could change dramatically (not roughly) after the aforementioned expenses)? These are just things I would worry about myself, is why I ask. I'm sure you may've thought out all of what I just said, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask anyway.
 
Hi, DocJL.

Thanks for your response. I'm family oriented and I love being close to my family. The thought of doing another tour and being away from my family for a year (and maybe forever) makes all of us uneasy. I loved my time in the military, but that was when I was single and young: I am much more appreciative of life now. Now that I have a relationship, it makes it hard to go back.

I prefer the civilian lifestyle over the Marines lifestyle.

I have been accepted to an instate university where I will be paying in-state tuition.

Yes, I agree with you that my analysis is very rough. In my estimation, I left out a lot of factors, such as overhead in private practice vs none in the military, etc.

The one major advantage of the military is the pension.

I would love to hear your private practice point of view.
 
Hi, Kahr.

Debt after four years of in-state cost of attendance at my school is more around 200k, which includes everything such as food, transportation, living expenses, insurance, buying little equipments, etc. I used 250k to be safe and for interest.

As far as equipment and real estate, those are something I am not overly concerned about. They will pay itself off in the end, because they are assets. If anything, I would rather pay for equipment much like how I have a collection of garage tools to do my own automotive work. And I can always sell my practice/business when I retire.

I think 140K is a fair salary. I anticipate a growing demand for dentists.

Again, this is a very rough estimate:

After 10 years in military, you make 900k with no debt. Average is 90k a year, which seems to be fair.
After 10 years in private practice, you make 1.4m with 250k debt. Even with the 250k debt, you are still 250k ahead, which can take care of most of the other costs associated with going with the civilian route. I think 140k a year for 10 years is a very conservative.

After 10-15 years, I think we can agree, at a financial point of view, that there's more in private practice.
 
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Thanks for your insight, Hedgy.



If I decide to do the military path, I will make 70,75,80,85K a year for the first four years. That comes out to 310k after four years without debt.

If I decide to do the cilivan path, I will make 140k a year for four years. This comes out to 560k after four years with 250k in debt. After four years, I will gross 310k.


Of the 560K you make, you will pay approx 40% of that to tax leaving you with a net income of 336K, after 250K loans + interest pay, you will have a net income of 100K over 4 years.

If you do military you will gross $310K and pay about 27% tax leaving you net of 226K. Assuming your educational scholarship is $250K, army bonus $20K gross (13k net), stipend 4 years $100K (80K net). Your total gain from military is 226+250+13+80= 569"NET" after 4 years.

If you go to more expensive school, your net gain after 4 years is more.

if you value freedom and life as civilian then don't do hpsp., its not worth it, maybe financially in the short term...
 
Of the 560K you make, you will pay approx 40% of that to tax leaving you with a net income of 336K, after 250K loans + interest pay, you will have a net income of 100K over 4 years.

If you do military you will gross $310K and pay about 27% tax leaving you net of 226K. Assuming your educational scholarship is $250K, army bonus $20K gross (13k net), stipend 4 years $100K (80K net). Your total gain afrom military is 226+250+13+80= 569"NET" after 4 years.

If you go to more expensive school, your net gain after 4 years is more.

if you value freedom and life as civilian then don't do hpsp., its not worth it, maybe financially in the short term...

You make a good point--if one decides to pay off all their loan within four years, then you don't net as much compared to the military after four years. However, after that loan is paid off, your yearly net income will jump significantly compared to the military's.

I think that 569 should be 319k. The 250k doesn't go to you. It applies to the loan. Please correct me if I am wrong, as this is a new topic for me. I was considering the AF or Navy and that's what brought me to this thread.

Maybe the perfect combination is to do the four years military, then switch to private practice.
 
You make a good point--if one decides to pay off all their loan within four years, then you don't net as much compared to the military after four years. However, after that loan is paid off, your yearly net income will jump significantly compared to the military's.

I think that 569 should be 319k. The 250k doesn't go to you. It applies to the loan. Please correct me if I am wrong, as this is a new topic for me. I was considering the AF or Navy and that's what brought me to this thread.

Maybe the perfect combination is to do the four years military, then switch to private practice.

There's really no perfect combination. The information I have heard is that general dentists do very minimal dentistry working as a 63A. Basically doing simple operative, maybe occasional endo, OS, fixed. There's really no opportunity to do advanced cases without doing an AEGD or specializing. In fact, working over seas even restricts you more as there are no dental labs so there is no fixed being done, everything is amalgam, composite, IRM, etc. In general private practice, a lot of my buddies are already doing implants 1-2 years out of school, crown lengthening, bunch of them are learning ortho (invisalign, metal brackets, extrusion, uprighting etc). There's ZERO chance to do ortho in military. So in terms of where you will be as a civilian 4 years out vs. a military general dentists 4 years out is by far a huge range.

I guess the earning potential at year 5 in private practice is going to be substantially higher than a military dentists 5 years out just starting private practice...do you understand what I'm saying? I'd figure the salary would be 150K to 100K
 
There's really no perfect combination. The information I have heard is that general dentists do very minimal dentistry working as a 63A. Basically doing simple operative, maybe occasional endo, OS, fixed. There's really no opportunity to do advanced cases without doing an AEGD or specializing. In fact, working over seas even restricts you more as there are no dental labs so there is no fixed being done, everything is amalgam, composite, IRM, etc. In general private practice, a lot of my buddies are already doing implants 1-2 years out of school, crown lengthening, bunch of them are learning ortho (invisalign, metal brackets, extrusion, uprighting etc). There's ZERO chance to do ortho in military. So in terms of where you will be as a civilian 4 years out vs. a military general dentists 4 years out is by far a huge range.

I guess the earning potential at year 5 in private practice is going to be substantially higher than a military dentists 5 years out just starting private practice...do you understand what I'm saying? I'd figure the salary would be 150K to 100K

There is alot of truth to this post, but there is also the fact that even as a first term military dentist you can and will receive training that you can not obtain if entering private practice right out of school. I did 4 years in the Navy Dental Corps including a 1 year GPR. 4 months out of dental school I was doing full bony impactions, with a board certified OMFS doing one side while I did the other, I did several periodontal surgeries and apicoectomies that year also. Once I went to my clinic, although I did more than my share of WFT (whole frickin tooth) amalgams, I also did a couple of thousand 3rd molar extractions, and a couple of hundred molar endo's. and I always had somebody who could bail me out if I got over my head. In private practice you don't have that luxury, (of trying exceptionally difficult cases you might not be able to finish), unless you want to risk getting sued. I like to think it made me a much better, more rounded general dentist, and I credit the procedures I am able to do thanks to my military experience with putting an extra 50k a year into my pocket now that I am in private practice. Civilian CE is a good thing, but much of it is lecture based, or hands on models only.
The military is a great place to develop your skills.
 
There is alot of truth to this post, but there is also the fact that even as a first term military dentist you can and will receive training that you can not obtain if entering private practice right out of school. I did 4 years in the Navy Dental Corps including a 1 year GPR. 4 months out of dental school I was doing full bony impactions, with a board certified OMFS doing one side while I did the other, I did several periodontal surgeries and apicoectomies that year also. Once I went to my clinic, although I did more than my share of WFT (whole frickin tooth) amalgams, I also did a couple of thousand 3rd molar extractions, and a couple of hundred molar endo's. and I always had somebody who could bail me out if I got over my head. In private practice you don't have that luxury, (of trying exceptionally difficult cases you might not be able to finish), unless you want to risk getting sued. I like to think it made me a much better, more rounded general dentist, and I credit the procedures I am able to do thanks to my military experience with putting an extra 50k a year into my pocket now that I am in private practice. Civilian CE is a good thing, but much of it is lecture based, or hands on models only.
The military is a great place to develop your skills.

Just curious, how do you think your experience would be without doing that 1 year GPR. Is that still a requirement for Navy dentists? I would think doing that GPR gives you credentials or ability to perform molar endo, extractions, etc.
 
There's really no perfect combination. The information I have heard is that general dentists do very minimal dentistry working as a 63A. Basically doing simple operative, maybe occasional endo, OS, fixed. There's really no opportunity to do advanced cases without doing an AEGD or specializing. In fact, working over seas even restricts you more as there are no dental labs so there is no fixed being done, everything is amalgam, composite, IRM, etc. In general private practice, a lot of my buddies are already doing implants 1-2 years out of school, crown lengthening, bunch of them are learning ortho (invisalign, metal brackets, extrusion, uprighting etc). There's ZERO chance to do ortho in military. So in terms of where you will be as a civilian 4 years out vs. a military general dentists 4 years out is by far a huge range.

I guess the earning potential at year 5 in private practice is going to be substantially higher than a military dentists 5 years out just starting private practice...do you understand what I'm saying? I'd figure the salary would be 150K to 100K

Just a quick note about the fixed comment - The services (at least Army and Air Force) all use "area dental labs" so whether your clinic has a lab or not does not matter - it is all fed ex'd to the lab and fed ex'd back. Even in Iraq I am doing fixed prosth cases by this method.
 
Just a quick note about the fixed comment - The services (at least Army and Air Force) all use "area dental labs" so whether your clinic has a lab or not does not matter - it is all fed ex'd to the lab and fed ex'd back. Even in Iraq I am doing fixed prosth cases by this method.

At least when I was in, the treatment for most badly broken down teeth or endo treated teeth was to a full cuspal coverage amalgam. These can be exceptionally difficult to master (ask me how I know:eek:). Occasionally I will look in a new pts mouth and ask them, "so what branch of the service were you in?" when I see a nicely done MODFL that's been in there for 15 years - they're always amazed I can tell they were in the military by looking in their mouth.

In 4 years, I did zero removeable pros (thank god I was good at it, it was one of the awards I got when graduating dental school, because I had to do a denture complete with setup on my boards before I got out of the Navy). did about 15 or 20 units of fixed pros during my GPR, then my clinic director let me do another 15 or 20 in the last few months before I took boards before I got out, to help me get up to speed.

My first year in civilian practice, working at a big corporate office, running 4 chairs 10 hours a day, I probably did 15-20 units a WEEK (this is not the norm, but I was in an area with a shortage of dentists at the time).
 
Of the 560K you make, you will pay approx 40% of that to tax leaving you with a net income of 336K, after 250K loans + interest pay, you will have a net income of 100K over 4 years.

you do realize that even in the top bracket you dont pay 40% taxes on your entire salary right? the way our tax system works is that no matter how much money you earn you pay the same rate as everybody else in a sliding scale. ie;

$0-8,375 = 10% taxes
$8375- 34,000 = 15%
34,000-84,200 = 25%
84,200- 171,850 = 28%
171,850 - 373,650 = 33%

so if your making $140K/yr you'll pay $32,909 in taxes = $131,636 in taxes over 4 yrs = $428,364 in income much higher than the $336K you quoted. just fyi as many people dont understand how we're taxed

edit: this is only for federal taxes; some states also have state income tax
here is a calculator you can use to figure out how much you'll pay:

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
 
Just curious, how do you think your experience would be without doing that 1 year GPR. Is that still a requirement for Navy dentists? I would think doing that GPR gives you credentials or ability to perform molar endo, extractions, etc.


xhamburgers and jim85,

When I went in I think the navy was taking like 120 new dentists a year. There were 24 GPR slots spread out among 5 hospitals, you had to apply and they were mildly competitive. there were an additional 80(I believe) 1 year AEGD slots that were very easy to get. The rest of the folks just went straight to a clinic, and basically OJT'd for extra skills.

GPR was best on your military resume if you had aspirations to specialize, either in the military or civilian residency after the military, and was basically a requirement if you were interested in OS. Both AEGD and GPR provided excellent hands on rotations in all the disciplines of dentistry (except we did no ortho, and my program did no removeable, little to no cosmetic dentistry either, Uncle Sam don't care if you have a beautiful smile.....lol) At the end of the year your clinic director checked you off as being "credentialed" to independantly do things like molar endo, partial and full bony impactions, crown lengthening and osseous surgery, simple apicoectomy, etc. etc.

Yes it helped when you got to your duty assignment, as you were given much more leeway to diagnose and even control your own schedule. I was at a "less desireable" remote location, so there were very few high ranking dental officers (the wisdom is that they had "paid their dues" and got first crack at the good coastal assignments). This helped because we had less specialists, and as young general dentists were allowed to perform all phases of treatment. As a GPR trained dentist (there were typically 3 or 4 of us out of 15 dental officers at my clinic) I got to keep a nitrogen tank IN my operatory, as I scheduled 3rd molars for myself 1 or 2 days a week, as I enjoyed surgery.

The guys who were right out of school I never really saw progress to the same comfort level with complex OS, endo and perio as those who did the 1 year programs. Bottom line, even though as junior dental officers we all got along, those of us with training, especially if we were trying to prepare ourselves for either residency or private practice, were more concerned with our OWN clinical experiences, versus trying to train up somebody who elected to skip the one year program (and some of them chose to skip it because they simply did not want to do the work, after dental school, because there is a good deal of work involved, particularly the GPR, which was known to be much more rigorous than the AEGD - in other words, if you wanted to be a stud ;) and treat the more difficult cases, you had to pay your dues........)

Hope this helps.:xf:
 
you do realize that even in the top bracket you dont pay 40% taxes on your entire salary right? the way our tax system works is that no matter how much money you earn you pay the same rate as everybody else in a sliding scale. ie;

$0-8,375 = 10% taxes
$8375- 34,000 = 15%
34,000-84,200 = 25%
84,200- 171,850 = 28%
171,850 - 373,650 = 33%

so if your making $140K/yr you'll pay $32,909 in taxes = $131,636 in taxes over 4 yrs = $428,364 in income much higher than the $336K you quoted. just fyi as many people dont understand how we're taxed

edit: this is only for federal taxes; some states also have state income tax
here is a calculator you can use to figure out how much you'll pay:

http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

i'm not sure if you had any full-time salary-based work experience, but at $140k/yr, 40% is probably a good guess (probably more--depending on your location). yes the progressivity taxation is correct, but income tax most likely one of many taxes you'd need to pay: aside from fed, state, and local taxes, you'll still owe social security taxes, medicare taxes (FICA if fed govt), or even AMT, if you're trying to be too smart (i guess washington is a good state to live in, b/c there's no state income tax). besides, most tax benefits and deductions start to dwindle significantly once you hit that $110k/yr mark (such as student loan interest deduction), so the combination of untaxed/taxed compensation scheme in the military is a pretty good thing b/c it'll bring down your tax bracket. also, many new grads work as 1099 status (independent contractor) w/o benefits, so many cases you're on your own when it comes to health/life insurances and so on.
 
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