Medical Students w/ Children...question

[bigpharmD]

melanoleuca /pandas post = "you cant do it because in my experience its not doable."

amazing A+ I accept with open arms.

he is far right on the political spectrum so this kind of thinking is typical.

i am sure some of you work in the hospital now....i work in it every day...healthcare is f'd up...hes not the only one that speaks of this....the attending surgeon i work with says he cringes every time he sees a young person going into medicine....with that being said i still think about it...everyone wants to be the top dog

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[pianola]

OK, I'm going to leave the Panda-bashing for others. Maybe it's overly alarmist, maybe it's not, but frankly I'd rather be pessimistic and be pleasantly surprised than optimistic and bitter.

Question for Panda: During residency, is there a lot of work that the resident must do at home? Or is it all done in the hospital?

 

[Nasrudin]

Nontrads. <<<what a stupid word...... Listen.

Let's not forget. Panda<<<we'll let the cuteness slide b/c it's marine name--is an interesting, humorous, gut honest voice.

When you have to work next to somebody in difficult circumstance, my gut tells me this is the type of guy you want to share a foxhole with. Period. Some of you other pretentious F@cks, not so much.

So who cares whether or not we agree with someone. Who cares about what ideas they have about society. And whether or not it's the exact reflection of our own. If I can say f@ck you, you funny mf'er and he smiles. Then that's your answer.

Why censure. Why blanket rejection. What kind of person are you to work next to when you've had no sleep in 3 days?

 

[Skymastre]

I think this thread has deviated from having a purpose/sensible life.

I did appreciate a while back that someone threw in some divorce statistics that, quite frankly, don't seem much worse than the average in america and was more inspiring than people's professed devotion to their loved ones.

I also appreciate the frankness of 'the panda' about the miseries that can tear relationships apart. However, at this point this thread is dead.

It would be more constructive to hear about techniques that did work/did not work for people. As 'the panda' has been generous enough to share some of the reasons why marriages fail, perhaps some others can share reasons why the might succeed? Methods others used to make their marriages work?

Otherwise, I'd have to say game match to 'the panda'.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think this thread has deviated from having a purpose/sensible life.

I did appreciate a while back that someone threw in some divorce statistics that, quite frankly, don't seem much worse than the average in america and was more inspiring than people's professed devotion to their loved ones.

I also appreciate the frankness of 'the panda' about the miseries that can tear relationships apart. However, at this point this thread is dead.

It would be more constructive to hear about techniques that did work/did not work for people. As 'the panda' has been generous enough to share some of the reasons why marriages fail, perhaps some others can share reasons why the might succeed? Methods others used to make their marriages work?

Otherwise, I'd have to say game match to 'the panda'.

I'm sorry but to push this thread back into blissful distopian unusefulness. Go buy a marriage book and be convinced that everything will end well.

As for me. I'm simply amazed that the concept of marriage has held on so long. I am amazed that it even works every so often. So here's my useful marriage tip: Be amazed. Be amazed that you still get to tap it every so often, and that sometimes it's not boring. Be amazed that you don't get drugged and have a pillow sophicating you to death. Be amazed if your last thought isn't I wonder what took her so long to finally do it. Be amazed you have somebody nice to chill with.

And as for the architecture of certainty. Castles in the sand.

 

[bigpharmD]

man by the few posts i have read your are nuts....you will make a good doc...good luck

by the way..i know if i decided to go back my wife would divorce me in heart beat...she thinks i work too much now

 

[BitingPlates]

Nontrads. <<<what a stupid word...... Listen.

Let's not forget. Panda<<<we'll let the cuteness slide b/c it's marine name--is an interesting, humorous, gut honest voice.

When you have to work next to somebody in difficult circumstance, my gut tells me this is the type of guy you want to share a foxhole with. Period. Some of you other pretentious F@cks, not so much.

So who cares whether or not we agree with someone. Who cares about what ideas they have about society. And whether or not it's the exact reflection of our own. If I can say f@ck you, you funny mf'er and he smiles. Then that's your answer.

Why censure. Why blanket rejection. What kind of person are you to work next to when you've had no sleep in 3 days?

May you please refrain from using that term. Instead you can use trench.

 

[jinx520]

May you please refrain from using that term. Instead you can use trench.

what's wrong with foxhole?

 

[BitingPlates]

what's wrong with foxhole?

A trench is the correct word. Thats all.

 

[jinx520]

Well, the only trenches I ever dug were for latrines. I have dug plenty of foxholes, though.

 

[BitingPlates]

Well, the only trenches I ever dug were for latrines. I have dug plenty of foxholes, though.

Oh yes latrines. Disregard my statement, I forgot the Army calls trenches foxholes. We fought in trenches, what did you guys do in foxholes?

 

[melanoleuca]

OK, I'm going to leave the Panda-bashing for others. Maybe it's overly alarmist, maybe it's not, but frankly I'd rather be pessimistic and be pleasantly surprised than optimistic and bitter.

Question for Panda: During residency, is there a lot of work that the resident must do at home? Or is it all done in the hospital?

Not really. You have to give the occasional case conference or Grand Rounds and most residency programs have a research requirement but if you look at these things as a percentage of your time they are not too onerous. On the other hand everything can be onerous if you are worn out from working 80 hours at the hospital.

I generally only work about 50 hours a week now, counting weekly conferences so it's not that bad.

There is a certain useless bureaucratic paperwork burden in every program, by the way, which, in aggregate might not add too much to your workload but is not trivial either. I am chronically behind on my paperwork, usually don't do it, and hope to slime out without completing it. If you do it like you're supposed to, at my program the paperwork probably takes a half hour per day.

Unfortunately, filling out the ridiculous evaluations, surveys, logs, and other crap is a RRC requirement.

Oh, and you have to read and study on your own time and the time you spend does not count towards your duty hours.

 

[DrEsquire]

That you spend so much time with your fellow residents that one day, your wife realizes you have more in common with them, spend more time with them, have more fun with them, and have nothing to give when you get home. I'm not saying it's a fact but perception is reality in a relationship.

I think you're right on here, Panda. In my opinion, this is the beginning of the end in any relationship. I've been married a long time and the only time we hit a major bump was when we started letting the daily routine (work, kids, etc), interfere with the relationship. After awhile of this, you start to wonder what you have in common. Not to start a disagreement with anyone else, or to compare marriages, but I never thought I would get to that place of feeling like we had nothing in common anymore. But I did. We've worked through it, but it sucked for a long, long time.

In my general neighborhood there are 4 residents in various specialties ranging from peds to surgery. Of those, 2 have divorced or are in the process of divorcing and the other one (peds, and a woman no less) is on the brink of divorce. She's finishing her residency this year but after the beating the marriage took during the residency, I don't give the relationship 2 more years. Her husband says that every day she would come home exhausted, go directly to bed, and spent what time she had at home complaining about how awful her life was. He told me he just couldn't take how miserable she was anymore. I don't know if a marriage can survive the kind of beating theirs took, but they're giving it a shot.

You can have a great marriage, and you're both rowing together in your rowboat with calm seas, and the next thing you know, you get hit with a huge wave you didn't see coming. This is what I have learned after 15 years of marriage. I always said it would never happen to me, but it did. None of us can predict the future.

 

[bigpharmD]

and you have decided to go to med school?

 

[melanoleuca]

You can have a great marriage, and you're both rowing together in your rowboat with calm seas, and the next thing you know, you get hit with a huge wave you didn't see coming. This is what I have learned after 15 years of marriage. I always said it would never happen to me, but it did. None of us can predict the future.

Exactly right.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

Nontrads. <<<what a stupid word...... Listen.

Let's not forget. Panda<<<we'll let the cuteness slide b/c it's marine name--is an interesting, humorous, gut honest voice.

When you have to work next to somebody in difficult circumstance, my gut tells me this is the type of guy you want to share a foxhole with. Period. Some of you other pretentious F@cks, not so much.

So who cares whether or not we agree with someone. Who cares about what ideas they have about society. And whether or not it's the exact reflection of our own. If I can say f@ck you, you funny mf'er and he smiles. Then that's your answer.

Why censure. Why blanket rejection. What kind of person are you to work next to when you've had no sleep in 3 days?

please lord. go (re)join the military. you can do all the foxhole sharing there. if only sharing foxholes and medicine had 1 thing in common your post might make sense...

 

[melanoleuca]

please lord. go (re)join the military. you can do all the foxhole sharing there. if only sharing foxholes and medicine had 1 thing in common your post might make sense...

You will have the same kind of relationship with your fellow residents as you had with the fellow Marines or Soldiers in your squad or platoon.

 

[jinx520]

You will have the same kind of relationship with your fellow residents as you had with the fellow Marines or Soldiers in your squad or platoon.

And your spouse WILL grow to resent it, no matter how open-minded/understanding/secure he or she is. It takes A LOT of work on your marriage to stave this off, and sometimes no matter what you do, it won't be enough.

 

[DrEsquire]

and you have decided to go to med school?

This happened to me outside of med school. It can happen to anyone, but I think there are particular jobs/occupations that make your risk factors higher. Anytime you are in a circumstance of forced long separation, whether your job includes a lot of travel, being in the military, high-stress, etc., you are going to find your relationship more at risk. I'm a lawyer and have had 2 extremely high-stress work-related years, including many 18 hour workdays (yes, 18 hour workdays, every day including weekends, for weeks on end). If you buy into Maslow's hierarchy of needs, let's just say that during a lot of that time I wasn't exactly approaching enlightenment and self-actualization. Look at where sleep is on the chain of needs.

I'm going into this after difficult research, and with zero illusions as to what effect it could have on my marriage. I was humbled enough about the fragility of marriage over the last two years that I am hopeful I'll be able to recognize the signs when and if we start drifting towards the danger zone again. But who knows--life's a gamble either way. And the slippery slope downhill can be insidious and sneak up on you. All I've got to go on is my own experience. That's the best I can do. It's taken a few nasty twisted turns on the marriage road to get me humbled enough to admit that. And my husband is a great guy. This happens to good people who mean well.

Of course many marriages go through medical training and emerge just fine. I think Panda just wants you to recognize that the entire setup of medical training and residency is not designed to improve your relationships with other people, or even to maintain them. And as a result, you just need to go into it recognizing that you are going to undergo significant stress and strain on your relationship, maybe worse than you ever imagined. So be ready. And don't be arrogant about what can or can't affect your relationship.

 

[Nasrudin]

please lord. go (re)join the military. you can do all the foxhole sharing there. if only sharing foxholes and medicine had 1 thing in common your post might make sense...

Who said anything about the military. I'm talking about two institutionally induced bachelor foxes. Having to share a hole. If I have to share my hole with you and your grandiose eye-rolling. I'll think I'll bite your nose.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

Who said anything about the military. I'm talking about two institutionally induced bachelor foxes. Having to share a hole. If I have to share my hole with you and your grandiose eye-rolling. I'll think I'll bite your nose.

ahh, i fail. sorry. i think i posted that around 3am or something. Still, i dont like you.

 

[dragonfly99]

thinkstoomuch,
Provigil is not a fix for being chronically sleep-deprived and having to do every 3rd or 4th night on call/overnight in the hospital for 30 hours at a time. I don't think it would work well, as you've got to go to the hospital at a normal time (say, 6:30 or 7 a.m.) then potentially stay awake in the hospital until the next day at noon or 1pm. It's really designed more for someone who works night shifts (say 12 hours or so) and having trouble getting used to adjusting their sleep/wake cycle. Besides, some of us are afraid to start medicating ourselves with amphetamines (which is what this stuff is similar to...). As an aside, the 30 hour shifts will probably be gone if/when most of you reading this get to residency, so you'll have it somewhat better, work hours-wise.

I'd be interested to see whether bigpharmd has anything to say about Provigil...have you been filling many rx'es for this, or know of nurses, MD's etc. who are using it?

In response to the ? about whether residents have to do work at home:
Residents have to read and study on their own time at home. Sometimes you'll have to do paperwork like discharge summaries (note summarizing patient's hospital stay, studies and labs that were done, etc.) either after you've signed out for the day, or at home (such as via computer, etc.). The amount of paperwork is more in some specialties, like IM and perhaps general surgery...whichever specialties tend to admit and take care of the most patients themselves in the hospital. In general I found the work and studying at home to be less than when I was a medical student...you don't have to do as many presentations, or generally get quizzed as much at work. At least that was my experience.

Out of the 30 or so I residents in my year of residency, nobody got divorced. There was one person in the year ahead of me who did. That is for internal medicine. The work hours can definitely strain a marriage in med school or residency. I have known a Mormon resident who would have his wife come over and bring their 3 kids to hang out in the call room with him during the day on weekends when he was on call. That way between seeing patients he would get to see them a little bit. Also some residents' spouses I think occasionally come to the hospital to eat dinner with them on a call night, etc. This probably won't be possible when you are an intern because you'll be too busy. For a higher level resident things might get quiet enough that you have time for this.

Reading this thread has made me a little depressed (not having been married yet, but hoping to at some point)

 

[bigpharmD]

i personally do not know any residents/attendings using any stimulant to help them stay awake...with that being said i am SURE it happens...i personally would recommend lots of coffee

Crazy as it sounds I do know 2 residents who have comitted suicide using propofol (i am sure you can guess the specialty).....

by getting ON SDN and researching i hope all of you know what you are getting in to..like everyone has said marriages can end with med school/residency just like any job...what no one talks about is how healthy is the relationship if it does survive....and many times it is not good

btw...sometimes we do recommend provigil in severly depressed patients to get them out of bed and moving....

 

[pianola]

As an aside, the 30 hour shifts will probably be gone if/when most of you reading this get to residency, so you'll have it somewhat better, work hours-wise.

I hope you are right.

Thank you both melanoleuca/Panda and dragonfly on your reflections about work outside of the hospital.

 

[easy1226]

So, I don't post much, but I was browsing this thread, and couldn't help but notice post after post from melanoleuca, and I must say, dude, you made your point. Some people listen, some people don't, some people would rather be optimistic, others don't care. Do us all a favor, and stop posting the same crap over and over and over. It's old. And don't bash everyone that disagrres with you, it's poor form. And also, when you said something about knowing more than the army guy who had been deployed because you were a marine and he's never been through medical training, you were a marine how long ago? With how many combat deployments under your belt? Just wondering. You seem to be quick to point out everyone else's lack of experience compared to yours, just thought someone should return the favor. Maybe your marriage didn't work out for a reason....I wouldn't want to be married to your attitude either.

 

[melanoleuca]

So, I don't post much, but I was browsing this thread, and couldn't help but notice post after post from melanoleuca, and I must say, dude, you made your point. Some people listen, some people don't, some people would rather be optimistic, others don't care. Do us all a favor, and stop posting the same crap over and over and over. It's old. And don't bash everyone that disagrres with you, it's poor form. And also, when you said something about knowing more than the army guy who had been deployed because you were a marine and he's never been through medical training, you were a marine how long ago? With how many combat deployments under your belt? Just wondering. You seem to be quick to point out everyone else's lack of experience compared to yours, just thought someone should return the favor. Maybe your marriage didn't work out for a reason....I wouldn't want to be married to your attitude either.

The first Gulf War as well as well as four "Floats", one West Pac and three "Meds."

And I have to reiterate, residency is nothing like a deployment or the military in general. This is a forum where non-traditional students, and I am (or was) the typical non-traditional student, hash out ideas and problems unique to them. Your objection is probably more because I'm not wafting sweet-smelling smoke up your ass. If I were to frequent a military forum full of Iraq-war veterans relating their experiences I would have nothing to say...so I don't. But since I have five weeks left of residency I would say that I know a lot about the medical school and residency, the whole process, the pitfalls, the triumphs, the sucky things, the good things, the perils, the rewards, and the mundane stuff that you will ignore as you apply.

 

[sindadel]

Thought some of you might be interested to see the poll results in the residents' forum. People seem very positive so far...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=7105

 

[bigpharmD]

n=28...nuff said

 

[sindadel]

I certainly would love it if more people voted. Especially disgruntled ones given the way the numbers are going and the doom and gloom predicted by many on this forum and others.

 

[sumstorm]

Compared to residency, there is no such thing as a "zero flexibility job." In fact, in residency not only is your schedule almost completely inflexible but deviating from it will screw over one of your fellow residents who is on "back-up" call. You can't even call in sick as a resident, and I have been on call where I required two liters of IV fluid and Zofran to keep going.

Sorry, I don't buy it. There are a lot of jobs that are 0 flexibiliy...where one can't get sick or everyone is screwed. When you are out to sea, there is no back up to call on. If someone gets sick, is injured, dies.... NO ONE can be there immediatly. Coast guard response, if you had the opportunity to call for help, can be over 12 hours away. You don't GET IV fluids to keep going.

My last trip out, we left out of NJ. We were 12 HOURS out when our first mate became deathly ill. There are 5 of us on a boat...that is what it took to operate this boat. Deathly ill = spinal meningitis, bacterial. We called the coast guard, but we were also in a Nor' Easter...meaning that coast guard response is limited. We headed to the nearest 'safe port' where Coast Gurad could meet us. 10 hours later, in the shallows off of NC, we met a CG cutter. We stuffed a man who was in and out of consciousness into an immersion suit (essentially, a suit that will help you survive for about 24 hours so that the Coasties MIGHT have a chance of saving your ass when the boat goes down) as he puked and screamed in agony. We THREW (yes, two men lifted him in a fireman's carry and tossed him over to the cutter....we were in 20 ft seas and couldn't tie down for a pass over) this deathly ill man (who did die) onto a Coastie cutter. At this stage, we were informed we could NOT come in and dock.... we were quarentined, at sea, down a man.

Guess what? When you are in residency, YOU CAN WALK OUT! You can make that decision. Yes, it will be horrible. It will ruin tons of work and probably isn't the optimal choice, but you can do it. When you are not allowed to enter US docks, are quarentined, and on a fishing boat in February, you don't have that option. You could swim (commit suicide) but that's it...only option. So, at a minimum, residents get at least one additional option then the men and women who work at sea.

You think that you are the only one that has seen beyond this life, and that you can judge it as the worst possible option. There are a lot worse hell holes to be in, ones that have NO light at the end of the tunnel...no rewards. My marriages (my first husband died) has survived imprisonment overseas during a border conflict, rape, spouse's organ replacement, distance and isolation, sealed record military service, miscarriage, homelessness, house fire, and death of a child (2nd husbands from his late wife).

Others are right. It depends on the individuals involved. It depends on how those individuals deal with their own lives and with each other. Based on all your negativity on here, it seems like that is how YOU handle YOUR life. We are reflections of our own attitudes. I have already been through horrible things that I DIDN'T have a choice in; vet/med school, residency...in ALL of those I have a choice. I have no doubts that we can survive this stage of our lives because we have survived worse.

 

[sumstorm]

With respect, this is gobbledygook. Your spouse will be isolated from you because medicine will demand your complete attention, most of your time, and most of your energy. As for stereotypes, most men will chaff in the role of "stay-at-home" dad. It's biological. We are not built to take care of the children while the woman hunt the mammoth. So sorry.

My husband has ALREADY been isolated from me, because working out to sea means 0 communications for months at a time. Our relationship STARTED with isolation, we just take TURNS at who is responsible for the 'home center' during the isolation. You are using the word "Most" which will be great. "most" is less than "all." When I was preparing to head out to sea, my husband would tell me 'don't think about us while you are out there.....100% of your energy and attention has to be on what you are doing because I want you to come home safe.' From what you are saying, he will actually have more attention than he has dealt with in the past.

As for most men, I really don't care. My husband isn't "most men" and he isn't YOU. He is a great, amazing man. He has been a stay at home parent before, for periods of time. Several of his closest college buddies are also stay at home dads (others aren't). All of them are strong, powerful, successful men. My husband is probably older than you are... so I think he can decide for himself what is best in his life, whether that is supporting his wife pursueing her dream, staying home, or pursueing his career. He is ex-army, an engineer, and he makes 6 figures base pay.

I also get that your world is limited to those where women have pre-dominantly stayed home and taken care of kids. It doesn't happen in the poorest communities of the world; throughout history the poor have had both parents work extensively. My world includes communities where children are raised by groups of people...those who have the most aptitude for it whether they are male or female. Communities where, historically, women and men hunted. I am sorry that is beyond the scope of your mental grasp, but they do exist. Saying it is biological is like saying a person with a uterus = a mothering character/personality. Surely you know at least a few women who should NEVER have children. I certainly know plenty of men who should never have access to projectiles with which to hunt. Child-rearing ability and skills are on a wide spectrum....and where an individual falls on that spectrum is a reflection of who they are biologically, culturally, socially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Perhaps, I am far less of a parenting type than you are. Perhaps my husband is far more of a parenting type than I am. One thing I feel confident of is that I am far happier with my life, including all the tragedies that have happened, then you are with yours.

 

[sumstorm]

That you spend so much time with your fellow residents that one day, your wife realizes you have more in common with them, spend more time with them, have more fun with them, and have nothing to give when you get home. I'm not saying it's a fact but perception is reality in a relationship.

How is this different for anyone else in a highly demanding career? Careers that requires 80+ hours almost always mean the individual is spending more time with their professional associates. I start school in August. I am at home at the moment. Guess what? My husband will be home morning Friday to close on the house near school. He hasn't been home in 2 weeks. He flies out at 5am Saturday. He will be back on June 1st. He will live in our current home. I will live at school. I really don't think it will be terribly different for us. I just won't be at this house while he is across the country.

I don't have issues with the concerns you raise. I agree, there are valid points in what you say. I am insulted by your desire to try to project your life on everyone else's, including my own. You aren't willing to accept that anyone is capable of being different than you...that no one's spouse could be different than yours. When someone says they will quit, you inform them that 'no, you won't', when someone says their husband is happy staying home with kids you pick at it. You are incapable, it seems, of accepting that anyone else could be in a different position than you were when you entered med school.

I confess, I don't have kids right now. We only foster, and as our fosters have moved on, we haven't taken additional ones in. I miscarried several years ago and wasn't ready to try again, and hubbys child from his late wife died in a fire. So I don't have great advice on med school + children. The only real advice I have for anyone is keep noticing what is amazing about your spouse as a person, and when the hard times arise, try to look at the world together, and make decisions together on what the next step is, what needs must be fullfilled, and which need to wait, and what sacrifices must be made. Reconnecting regularly and making sure that the target hasn't changed for either of you is important. Deciding on that target together is critical.

 

[melanoleuca]

Guess what? When you are in residency, YOU CAN WALK OUT! You can make that decision. Yes, it will be horrible. It will ruin tons of work and probably isn't the optimal choice, but you can do it. When you are not allowed to enter US docks, are quarentined, and on a fishing boat in February, you don't have that option. You could swim (commit suicide) but that's it...only option. So, at a minimum, residents get at least one additional option then the men and women who work at sea.

Guess what? in the military, or the Coast Guard, you can always desert! You can make that decision. Yes, it will be horrible. It will ruin tons of work and, as it may result in brig time (although not likely), isn't the optimal choice, but you can do it.

So let me get this straight: At the end of your second year of residency you decide that you don't like it and it is hurting your marriage so you will casually abandon six years of work, a couple hundred thousand of debt, and six years of lost wages in your other job?

Alright, let me restate: With the exception of those of you who are sailors actually on a ship at sea miles from port or quarantined offshore, there are very few jobs that have less flexibility than being a resident...unless by flexibility you mean just not going into work when you don't feel like it and screwing over the on-call resident who may be on his only off-weekend for the month.

Let me hit you with this as well: My hospital is suing the government to get back all of the FICA they have paid for their residents for the last three years under the theory that residents are "students" and not "employees." On one hand this is good for residents because it means that your "stipend," formally known as a "salary," is exempt from the 7.5 percent FICA that everybody pays on the first $100,000 or so of income (your employer "pays" the other 7.5 percent). In fact, the law firm doing this has promised the hospital will refund the FICA we paid over the last three years at some unknown time years from now when the escrow-held money is finally released after the suit exhausts itself in federal court.

On the other hand, the hospital is doing this because if we are students, they have a pretty good case not to extend the same health, dental, disability, and other benefits they give to even the cafeteria ladies, not to mention this is another 7.5 percent off of the $40,000 or so they pay residents per year multiplied by 300 resident which is around a million a year in "revenue" not to mention the cost of benefits.

This is going to catch on. The hospital knows that, especially for competitive specialties, they have a captive, helpless work force in their residents. If you don't like it you can lump it and they can always get lower quality applicants or desperate foreign graduates to fill their spots.

 

[melanoleuca]

I also get that your world is limited to those where women have pre-dominantly stayed home and taken care of kids.

Why would you say that? My wife is the exception, not the rule, and I don't know any other women who are stay-at-home moms. My residency program is 60 percent female, by the way.

 

[melanoleuca]

How is this different for anyone else in a highly demanding career? Careers that requires 80+ hours almost always mean the individual is spending more time with their professional associates. I start school in August.

With the exception of the military, and then not all of it either, I don't know of any other job where sleep-deprivation is expected, required, or encouraged as a character building exercise. Working long hours occasionally is not the same as Q3 call for three weeks which is:

Day One: 6AM to Midnight
Day Two: Midnight to Noon.
Day Three: 6AM to 6 PM.
Day Four: 6AM to Midnight
DAy Five: Midnight to Noon
Day Six: 6AM to 6PM

etc. with one random day off throw in. Note that on your call days you will get zero sleep (out of 200 call nights I probably got meaningful sleep on ten of them) and, if anything, work harder on call (as hospitals are 24-hour-per-day meat packing plants) than you do during the regular work day.

You can even be in compliance with the "80 hours rule" (although you won't be because nobody ever leaves on time) because for the fourth week you can have five days of "night float" with a day off at the beginning of your night-float week and a day off at the end before you start the next four-week block (most residency programs are organized into 13 four-week blocks per year).

Result? For months at a time you will be sleep deprived with a huge sleep deficit, so much so that on your rare day off all you will want to do is rest. This is of course specialty and program dependent but most of the standard specialties (medicine, surgery, EM etc.) have at least a couple of years of this kind of thing.

 

[pianola]

Wow to sumstorm. . Just wow.

It doesn't happen in the poorest communities of the world; throughout history the poor have had both parents work extensively. My world includes communities where children are raised by groups of people...those who have the most aptitude for it whether they are male or female. Communities where, historically, women and men hunted. I am sorry that is beyond the scope of your mental grasp, but they do exist. Saying it is biological is like saying a person with a uterus = a mothering character/personality. Surely you know at least a few women who should NEVER have children. I certainly know plenty of men who should never have access to projectiles with which to hunt. Child-rearing ability and skills are on a wide spectrum....and where an individual falls on that spectrum is a reflection of who they are biologically, culturally, socially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Perhaps, I am far less of a parenting type than you are. Perhaps my husband is far more of a parenting type than I am.

As many thumbups as I can give you for all of that.

Just thought I'd bold parts of it for emphasis. Cause I agree and whatnot.