Medical School is such a scam

[miacomet]

Friend just offered 200k a year to work as a nurse in San Francisco. No nights or weekends, 5 weeks paid vacation a year, pension, 401k with match, great benefits. Easy job, low patient numbers.

Education is such a scam. I can't this good a gig, anywhere.

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[DarkHorizon]

Friend just offered 200k a year to work as a nurse in San Francisco. No nights or weekends, 5 weeks paid vacation a year, pension, 401k with match, great benefits. Easy job, low patient numbers.

Education is such a scam. I can't this good a gig, anywhere.

Lies

 

[miacomet]

Lies

Nope.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Nope.

Then what’s the catch? Because there has to be one. I know many many nurses. The only ones who made this kind of money were travelers during COVId. Those rates have now come down . No full time jobs that I’m aware of in my area for any hospital based nursing pay even half of that.

 

[Siggy]

Then what’s the catch? Because there has to be one. I know many many nurses. The only ones who made this kind of money were travelers during COVId. Those rates have now come down . No full time jobs that I’m aware of in my area for any hospital based nursing pay even half of that.

California has strict nursing ratios.

Also depending on the area HCOL means that high pay doesn’t go too far.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

I also know a nurse making this in SF. Not standard but not at all uncommon.

Their hospital had an “inversion” in the ICU where the hourly rate for nurses actually exceeded the hourly rate for ICU physicians.

We had a brief period where this happened in Miami too last year, but it went away when they cut beds. Seems some places have just adjusted their rates for nursing permanently higher.

 

[miacomet]

California has strict nursing ratios.

Also depending on the area HCOL means that high pay doesn’t go too far.

Then what’s the catch? Because there has to be one. I know many many nurses. The only ones who made this kind of money were travelers during COVId. Those rates have now come down . No full time jobs that I’m aware of in my area for any hospital based nursing pay even half of that.

There is no catch. It's supply and demand. This is not an unusual nursing salary for the Bay Area or much of Northern California, including Sacramento, which is not particularly HCOL. The catch is that nurses have a better deal than many docs these days, and will continue to do so.

 

[allantois]

That's just enough to live in SF

 

[miacomet]

That's just enough to live in SF

And more than peds, preventive, many FPs, and other docs, who also manage to live in SF

 

[cyanide12345678]

Friend just offered 200k a year to work as a nurse in San Francisco. No nights or weekends, 5 weeks paid vacation a year, pension, 401k with match, great benefits. Easy job, low patient numbers.

Education is such a scam. I can't this good a gig, anywhere.

I mean that’s still an exception. Very few nurses in this world break 200k outside of terrible travel gigs while a very large majority of doctors break 200k. And if they don’t, they easily could by switching to another job or location.

There are always exceptions out there. Are there family med docs with their own practices making 1M+ through an army of MLPs who get paid 100k a year? Sure there are.

I’m glad nurses are making money, maybe now every new grad nurse wouldn’t go straight to NP school. If nurses made more than NPs, it should really start drying up the supply of NPs - hallelujah.

In the grand scheme, well paid nurses making around 100-120k might be what saves the physician profession.

Also…if pediatricians or FM docs are going to complain about their income, they knew what they were going to make going in to the specialty. I mean when someone does a phd and 2 post docs and lives on 30k a year for a decade in the hope of becoming a professor, they don’t do it for money. They should know they will be broke despite more years in schooling than most people.

If you care about money, then pick wisely. Go into ortho. Financial success isn’t about being more successful than another person or being envious of some other person’s success. Financial success is you vs you. Compare yourself with where you were 10-15 years ago and see where you are today. Unless you’re jeff bezos or Elon musk, there will always be other people more successful than you. Find contentment in your own success.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

"Med school is a scam" lol

I make over 300k and work less days than a teacher with a master's degree.

I take pride in the knowledge that I am an expert in emergency medicine. The noctors can let their inferiority complex shine. I laugh at them while i sit in first class to Europe.

If you don't want pediatrician money, don't choose pediatrics.

 

[NYEMMED]

"Med school is a scam" lol

I make over 300k and work less days than a teacher with a master's degree.

I take pride in the knowledge that I am an expert in emergency medicine. The noctors can let their inferiority complex shine. I laugh at them while i sit in first class to Europe.

If you don't want pediatrician money, don't choose pediatrics.

You have a doctorate…

When’s the last time a teacher worked evenings, nights, weekends, holidays. Or a shift more than 6-7 hours…

And they have over 12 weeks of vacation/sick time

It’s all give/take

 

[NYEMMED]

I mean that’s still an exception. Very few nurses in this world break 200k outside of terrible travel gigs while a very large majority of doctors break 200k. And if they don’t, they easily could by switching to another job or location.

There are always exceptions out there. Are there family med docs with their own practices making 1M+ through an army of MLPs who get paid 100k a year? Sure there are.

I’m glad nurses are making money, maybe now every new grad nurse wouldn’t go straight to NP school. If nurses made more than NPs, it should really start drying up the supply of NPs - hallelujah.

In the grand scheme, well paid nurses making around 100-120k might be what saves the physician profession.

Also…if pediatricians or FM docs are going to complain about their income, they knew what they were going to make going in to the specialty. I mean when someone does a phd and 2 post docs and lives on 30k a year for a decade in the hope of becoming a professor, they don’t do it for money. They should know they will be broke despite more years in schooling than most people.

If you care about money, then pick wisely. Go into ortho. Financial success isn’t about being more successful than another person or being envious of some other person’s success. Financial success is you vs you. Compare yourself with where you were 10-15 years ago and see where you are today. Unless you’re jeff bezos or Elon musk, there will always be other people more successful than you. Find contentment in your own success.

A nurse at one of my gigs just became a nurse 2 months ago. I said how did you wind up in the ER?

“I’m starting NP school in a month, just needed some cash in the meantime”

So you are going to be a NP with 3 months of experiance?

“Yea but I’ll be shadowing for 600 hours in school”

💩😜😢

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

A nurse at one of my gigs just became a nurse 2 months ago. I said how did you wind up in the ER?

“I’m starting NP school in a month, just needed some cash in the meantime”

So you are going to be a NP with 3 months of experiance?

“Yea but I’ll be shadowing for 600 hours in school”

💩😜😢

Let the noctors noctor. Deep down they all know what they are.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

The difference is, this is a market that isn't sustainable. Hospitals wouldn't survive if every nurse is making 200k/year in 10 years. We are in a short term bubble.

 

[WilcoWorld]

The counter is, if you don't go to med school then you don't get to be a physician.
So, I guess my advice would be "don't go to med school for the money. it's not worth it. only go to med school if your real goal is to be a physician"

 

[miacomet]

The difference is, this is a market that isn't sustainable. Hospitals wouldn't survive if every nurse is making 200k/year in 10 years. We are in a short term bubble.

Nurses in the Bay make 125k starting- many make 200-400k a year. These salaries have been standard in the Bay for the last two decades, and they have strict patient ratios.


How are the hospitals there surviving?

 

[DarkHorizon]

Nurses in the Bay make 125k starting- many make 200-400k a year. These salaries have been standard in the Bay for the last two decades, and they have strict patient rations.

How are the hospitals there surviving?

I have never heard of a nurse making 200k in a full time job, let alone 400k. The only ones making that kind of money are chief nursing officers or some admin executives.

You have far higher odds of making 400k as a physician than a nurse. That’s a fact. I’m not discounting we work hard, and my beef is usually with admin. But most nurses also work hard and are overworked.

I’m never shy to confront admin on compensation/resources/burnout, as they are always adversarial. Admin salary and overreach is a whole another issue however.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

I have never heard of a nurse making 200k in a full time job, let alone 400k. The only ones making that kind of money are chief nursing officers or some admin executives.

You have far higher odds of making 400k as a physician than a nurse. That’s a fact. I’m not discounting we work hard, and my beef is usually with admin. But most nurses also work hard and are overworked.

I’m never shy to confront admin on compensation/resources/burnout, as they are always adversarial. Admin salary and overreach is a whole another issue however.

I have similarly never heard of these mythical rates.

The highest ive seen nurses by me get is 150/hr and that's like only "super mega unicorn only sometimes when hospital is bat**** and Mars is up Neptunes ass"

 

[miacomet]

I have never heard of a nurse making 200k in a full time job, let alone 400k. The only ones making that kind of money are chief nursing officers or some admin executives.

You have far higher odds of making 400k as a physician than a nurse. That’s a fact. I’m not discounting we work hard, and my beef is usually with admin. But most nurses also work hard and are overworked.

I’m never shy to confront admin on compensation/resources/burnout, as they are always adversarial. Admin salary and overreach is a whole another issue however.

Well, here is a job listing for an OR nurse in San Francisco. Note that the VA, by policy, cannot be the market leader regarding wages. A nurse reaches the top tier after about 10 or so years of VA service IME. Note that the VA also pays a 30% shift differential for weekends. There is a 10% shift differential for nights. So it would be easy to parlay ER, floor nursing jobs into well over 200k by working the same nonstandard shifts we do.

So, a 21 year old could start at 110k with an online degree, be making 186k at 31, having had 10 years of time to compound their 401k, be on the path to a federal pension and lifetime health benefits.

RN-Operating Room

**This is an OPEN CONTINOUS ANNOUNCMENT and will remain open until September 29, 2023. The initial cut-off date for referral of eligible applications will be November 18, 2022, with subsequent cut-off dates every 2 weeks. Eligible applications received after that date will be accepted on an...

www.usajobs.gov

 

[miacomet]

Here is another listing for Palo Alto. Job starts at 143k, tops out at 212k. This is M-F 8:30-4:30 pm, benefits are noted. Nurses at the VA get five weeks vacation plus government holidays. VAs cannot be, as noted previously, the salary leader for a region.

Registered Nurse - Oncology Nurse Navigator

This position is eligible forthe <b>Education Debt Reduction Program (EDRP),</b> a student loan payment reimbursement program. You must meet specific individual eligibility requirements in accordance with VHA policy and submit your EDRP application within four months of appointment. <i>Approval...

www.usajobs.gov

This is for an OR nurse. Remember, this is for a standard workweek. Callback pay, nights, weekends pay more. It's pretty easy to bump one's salary up 10-20% by simply taking some call and some weekends.

Registered Nurse - IICU

This position is eligible for the<b> Education Debt Reduction Program (EDRP),</b> a student loan payment reimbursement program. You must meet specific individual eligibility requirements in accordance with VHA policy and submit your EDRP application within four months of appointment...

www.usajobs.gov

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

200k is the poverty line for bay area and silicom valley bro.

 

[miacomet]

200k is the poverty line for bay area and silicom valley bro.

It's also what EM docs are earning there, plus or minus. I haven't found SF to be more $$$ than where I live, or than NY.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Here is another listing for Palo Alto. Job starts at 143k, tops out at 212k. This is M-F 8:30-4:30 pm, benefits are noted. Nurses at the VA get five weeks vacation plus government holidays. VAs cannot be, as noted previously, the salary leader for a region.

Registered Nurse - Oncology Nurse Navigator

This position is eligible forthe <b>Education Debt Reduction Program (EDRP),</b> a student loan payment reimbursement program. You must meet specific individual eligibility requirements in accordance with VHA policy and submit your EDRP application within four months of appointment. <i>Approval...

www.usajobs.gov

This is for an OR nurse. Remember, this is for a standard workweek. Callback pay, nights, weekends pay more. It's pretty easy to bump one's salary up 10-20% by simply taking some call and some weekends.

Registered Nurse - IICU

This position is eligible for the<b> Education Debt Reduction Program (EDRP),</b> a student loan payment reimbursement program. You must meet specific individual eligibility requirements in accordance with VHA policy and submit your EDRP application within four months of appointment...

www.usajobs.gov

I would say these are rare and sparse opportunities. 95 percent of the nurses wouldn’t be able to reach that kind of nurses by just being hospital based nurses, other than leadership roles or NPs.

As an EM physician, your income potential is a lot higher. That wouldn’t have happened without med school. As an Ortho, my income is likely over 10-15x average RN income. Yeah I work hard and took a lot of loans to be here, but without med school, it wouldn’t have happened.

 

[miacomet]

I would say these are rare and sparse opportunities. 95 percent of the nurses wouldn’t be able to reach that kind of nurses by just being hospital based nurses, other than leadership roles or NPs.

As an EM physician, your income potential is a lot higher. That wouldn’t have happened without med school. As an Ortho, my income is likely over 10-15x average RN income. Yeah I work hard and took a lot of loans to be here, but without med school, it wouldn’t have happened.

Yeah, you also miss out on at least a decade of compounding interest, you don't need student loans. Residents are getting paid half this. If people want to while away a decade in training for a higher salary in Dubuque, have at it. But I don't think it's worth it.

NoCal is a larger labor market than half the states, I wouldn't call these opportunities "sparse."

 

[DarkHorizon]

It's also what EM docs are earning there, plus or minus. I haven't found SF to be more $$$ than where I live, or than NY.

You’re comparing best RN opportunity to probably the worst paid EM paid physicians. My brother is EM and makes over 500k and has for over 5 years. Lives in a metro of over 5 million people.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Yeah, you also miss out on at least a decade of compounding interest, you don't need student loans. Residents are getting paid half this. If people want to while away a decade in training for a higher salary in Dubuque, have at it. But I don't think it's worth it.

NoCal is a larger labor market than half the states, I wouldn't call these opportunities "sparse."

Well if you want to live on NOcal, it is what it is. It’s supply and demand. You can’t say med school is a scam when you make a conscious choice to live in one of the worst paid areas in the country. I hear your frustration, but just want to put things in perspective. Ask yourself, would you rather give up your job to be an RN in NOcal?

 

[miacomet]

You’re comparing best RN opportunity to probably the worst paid EM paid physicians. My brother is EM and makes over 500k and has for over 5 years. Lives in a metro of over 5 million people.

If you tell me Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, Chicago...like, those are not fun places to live.

Seattle, Portland, Denver, Sun Valley, Jackson, Park City, Vail, Breckenridge, Bozeman, San Fran, LA, San Diego etc I'm all ears.

 

[cyanide12345678]

If you tell me Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, Chicago...like, those are not fun places to live.

Seattle, Portland, Denver, Sun Valley, Jackson, Park City, Vail, Breckenridge, Bozeman, San Fran, LA, San Diego etc I'm all ears.

What is so special about seatle, portland, Denver etc?

What can you do there that you can’t do in Dallas, Houston or Chicago?

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

If you tell me Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Philly, Chicago...like, those are not fun places to live.

Seattle, Portland, Denver, Sun Valley, Jackson, Park City, Vail, Breckenridge, Bozeman, San Fran, LA, San Diego etc I'm all ears.

Dude what are you talking about lol.

 

[DeadCactus]

You and I have different definitions of scam. My definition seems much more focused on the deal I got and not whether or not someone, somewhere may have gotten a better deal. The general public certainly overestimates the glamour of this profession but that doesn't negate the weird victim complex in medicine.

 

[miacomet]

What is so special about seatle, portland, Denver etc?

What can you do there that you can’t do in Dallas, Houston or Chicago?

Are European tourists lining up in droves to visit Dallas, Houston, or Chicago? No. That's why they are cheap. Because the quality of life is awful.

Houston is disgustingly hot and unwalkable. You have get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. The traffic is hell.
Ditto Dallas. What exactly does one do in those cities? Can you backpack, hike, walk, ski, lay on a beach? Like, I guess they are OK if you like being stuck in traffic on your way to a bar. But what else is there...to do? I've been and I could not understand the appeal? There was all the inconvenience of a big city and none of the amenities. And no outdoors.

Chicago (worst years of my life) is crime-ridden, uncultured, and once again you have to get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. Bad traffic, mediocre transit. It's great if you love football and beer, but that's it.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Are European tourists lining up in droves to visit Dallas, Houston, or Chicago? No. That's why they are cheap. Because the quality of life is awful.

Houston is disgustingly hot and unwalkable. You have get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. The traffic is hell.
Ditto Dallas. What exactly does one do in those cities?

Chicago (worst years of my life) is crime-ridden, uncultured, and once again you have to get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. Bad traffic, mediocre transit. It's great if you love football and beer, but that's it.

Then you’ve relegated yourself to being underpaid perpetually. Just accept the reality. It is what it is.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Are European tourists lining up in droves to visit Dallas, Houston, or Chicago? No. That's why they are cheap. Because the quality of life is awful.

Houston is disgustingly hot and unwalkable. You have get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. The traffic is hell.
Ditto Dallas. What exactly does one do in those cities? Can you backpack, hike, walk, ski, lay on a beach? Like, I guess they are OK if you like being stuck in traffic on your way to a bar. But what else is there...to do? I've been and I could not understand the appeal? There was all the inconvenience of a big city and none of the amenities. And no outdoors.

Chicago (worst years of my life) is crime-ridden, uncultured, and once again you have to get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. Bad traffic, mediocre transit. It's great if you love football and beer, but that's it.

Sure. If you care about backpacking, skiing etc and equate it with quality of life.

Someone else might equate ethic food, diversify, low cost of living, a large spacious home and disposable income with quality of life.

I sure as hell wouldn’t be happy trading my 6000 sqft home for a 2000 sqft home for twice the price or even 3 times the price. Then I’ll be a Slave to my mortgage, will have to work for many more years which will lead to diminished happiness.

I’ll probably even have to downgrade school districts since right now i live in a
top 5 percent school district in the US.

So i don’t know how much time you spend outdoors, but i spend A lot of my life indoors in my home. And having a good home with amenities is my definition of quality of life.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Chicago is the greatest city in the history of the world. This is not opinion. This is a universal truth on par with the laws of thermodynamics and the Pythagorean Theorem.

 

[miacomet]

Sure. If you care about backpacking, skiing etc and equate it with quality of life.

Someone else might equate ethic food, diversify, low cost of living, a large spacious home and disposable income with quality of life.

I sure as hell wouldn’t be happy trading my 6000 sqft home for a 2000 sqft home for twice the price or even 3 times the price. Then I’ll be a Slave to my mortgage, will have to work for many more years which will lead to diminished happiness.

I’ll probably even have to downgrade school districts since right now i live in a
top 5 percent school district in the US.

So i don’t know how much time you spend outdoors, but i spend A lot of my life indoors in my home. And having a good home with amenities is my definition of quality of life.

True, although every city I mentioned has plenty of fine restaurants. Different stroke for different folks.

Places that are LCOL are that way because they aren't super desirable in general.
Agreed space is nice, but I have no idea what I would do with 6000 SF- what do you do with all the rooms? Even in a LCOL area, you have to paint it, clean it, heat it, cool it. I would probably downsize in a LCOL area to 2 or 3k SF and retire earlier...

 

[miacomet]

Chicago is the greatest city in the history of the world. This is not opinion. This is a universal truth on par with the laws of thermodynamics and the Pythagorean Theorem.

I lived there for many years and it's my least favorite place- what did you like about it? It's charm was utterly lost on me, and I really, really tried, but I don't like watching team sports or drinking Old Style.

 

[miacomet]

Then you’ve relegated yourself to being underpaid perpetually. Just accept the reality. It is what it is.

Yeah, I mean, I agree- EM is a great field if you want to live in the boonies or a huge, trafficky, Southern/Midwestern city and have a huge house. I would agree that if that's your desired lifestyle, EM is a great gig.

If you like skiing, hiking, backpacking, walkable cities, coasts, oceans...which is what most college-educated people like, it's a terrible deal.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I lived there for many years and it's my least favorite place- what did you like about it? It's charm was utterly lost on me, and I really, really tried, but I don't like watching team sports or drinking Old Style.

I don't care much about sports either, I just think that's a hilarious song.

As for Chicago - I found the music and arts scene to be thriving yet unpretentious, the cuisine to be world class, the neighborhoods to be full of individual character, and the people to be welcoming. There's presently a Jazz renaissance occurring and Chicago is the sun around which it's orbiting. It's also a tremendously bikeable city with convenient public transit. And Lake Michigan is wonderful in summer.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

The difference is, this is a market that isn't sustainable. Hospitals wouldn't survive if every nurse is making 200k/year in 10 years. We are in a short term bubble.

It isn't sustanable either to have CEO's make record profit year after year either but that never gets brought up

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Yeah, I mean, I agree- EM is a great field if you want to live in the boonies or a huge, trafficky, Southern/Midwestern city and have a huge house. I would agree that if that's your desired lifestyle, EM is a great gig.

If you like skiing, hiking, backpacking, walkable cities, coasts, oceans...which is what most college-educated people like, it's a terrible deal.

This is true for most of medicine. I mean I love complaing about EM but Peds or IM? IN EM if you work at it you can grind yourself to part time. Ortho and the like you have to live in a Southern City. You can also get those jobs in EM after working in a southern city for some time.

FM can make a living in those cities as well.

 

[DarkHorizon]

It isn't sustanable either to have CEO's make record profit year after year either but that never gets brought up

That really is the issue at hand. Not just the CEO, but the whole c-suite.

 

[miacomet]

I don't care much about sports either, I just think that's a hilarious song.

As for Chicago - I found the music and arts scene to be thriving yet unpretentious, the cuisine to be world class, the neighborhoods to be full of individual character, and the people to be welcoming. There's presently a Jazz renaissance occurring and Chicago is the sun around which it's orbiting. It's also a tremendously bikeable city with convenient public transit. And Lake Michigan is wonderful in summer.

This is true for most of medicine. I mean I love complaing about EM but Peds or IM? IN EM if you work at it you can grind yourself to part time. Ortho and the like you have to live in a Southern City. You can also get those jobs in EM after working in a southern city for some time.

FM can make a living in those cities as well.

Yeah, if you want to live on the coasts or in Denver etc, I would say nursing is a great gig, EM and other employed doc positions, not so much.

But much of the South and Midwest is so cheap I'm not really seeing a reason to go to medschool, either, unless that's just your thing for non economic reasons.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah, if you want to live on the coasts or in Denver etc, I would say nursing is a great gig, EM and other employed doc positions, not so much.

But much of the South and Midwest is so cheap I'm not really seeing a reason to go to medschool, either, unless that's just your thing for non economic reasons.

Because when things are cheap the doctor salary lets you do way more.

I'm FM, my wife is IM. So together we probably make about what the middling specialists do.

We live in a reasonably sized old house (love the old glass and high ceilings) in the neighborhood with the best elementary school in the area. But because of both of us working, both kids are in private school (they have extended hours). This year we're spending a week in Aspen, a week at Disney, a week in London. Plus at least a weekend trip locally most months. Just had to get a new roof and car within the last 4 months. Still live very comfortably.

All of the other doctors we know either have much nicer houses (1mil or more) and/or do more frequent or more expensive vacations. Lots of 2nd homes in fun areas.

Sure, we miss out on some of the culture and music scenes that larger metropolitan places get but there's enough around to enjoy between trips.

 

[gruemd]

What is this hard on for dunking on where apparently everyone else lives? Guess it's my turn to say shhhhh. This is a real "touch grass" moment.

 

[bravotwozero]

Yeah, I mean, I agree- EM is a great field if you want to live in the boonies or a huge, trafficky, Southern/Midwestern city and have a huge house. I would agree that if that's your desired lifestyle, EM is a great gig.

If you like skiing, hiking, backpacking, walkable cities, coasts, oceans...which is what most college-educated people like, it's a terrible deal.

I don't care much about sports either, I just think that's a hilarious song.

As for Chicago - I found the music and arts scene to be thriving yet unpretentious, the cuisine to be world class, the neighborhoods to be full of individual character, and the people to be welcoming. There's presently a Jazz renaissance occurring and Chicago is the sun around which it's orbiting. It's also a tremendously bikeable city with convenient public transit. And Lake Michigan is wonderful in summer.

Yup, 100% with you on Windy City, minus the severe cold of course, which I’d still gladly put up with as long as I’m not driving.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Ya cause everyone knows skiing and hiking are the only fun things to do lol.

I love skiing and hiking, but not everyone does...

 

[ReviewOfSystems]

Are European tourists lining up in droves to visit Dallas, Houston, or Chicago? No. That's why they are cheap. Because the quality of life is awful.

Houston is disgustingly hot and unwalkable. You have get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. The traffic is hell.
Ditto Dallas. What exactly does one do in those cities? Can you backpack, hike, walk, ski, lay on a beach? Like, I guess they are OK if you like being stuck in traffic on your way to a bar. But what else is there...to do? I've been and I could not understand the appeal? There was all the inconvenience of a big city and none of the amenities. And no outdoors.

Chicago (worst years of my life) is crime-ridden, uncultured, and once again you have to get on a plane to ski, mountain bike, or go to a nice beach. Bad traffic, mediocre transit. It's great if you love football and beer, but that's it.

Denver and Seattle are 2 of the most overrated cities ever.

 

[miacomet]

Ya cause everyone knows skiing and hiking are the only fun things to do lol.

I love skiing and hiking, but not everyone does...

Ya cause everyone knows skiing and hiking are the only fun things to do lol.

I love skiing and hiking, but not everyone does...

It's true. If people are into church, sports teams, fishing, golf, reading, and don't mind being in the car a lot then there are many good places to live in the US that are fairly reasonable.

 

[WorkNoteEmergency]

Medical school isn’t the scam but the US health care system is. There are some of us in EM making $400-$500k annually but these days, that is the exception, rather than the rule. To get to this point, we scraped and clawed through undergrad, some of us after undergrad, spending the extra time to do prerequisite courses, amass the “I love medicine” volunteer and shadow, etc. Follow this with 7-8+ years of med school and residency, amassing 6 figure debt. Now take a look around at your contemporaries, other smart motivated people, who chose different career paths, and they have similar incomes, don’t have to contort themselves and their schedules to take a 2 week vacation, get to wake up and go to bed at the same time every day. Sure many of them took risks and struggled to get to where they are but they also were able to save for retirement, start paying off mortgages in their 20’s and in their mid 50’s, my age, decide if they want to work to cushion retirement, whereas I am trying to decide if I want to keep working in the ED, knowing that each month I continue to do so, I subtract a certain amount from my life expectancy.

The US health care system profits from our professionalism and commitment to our patients and our colleagues. At the end, the system is going to pay some of you $500k to be there for the guy who has some chest twinges while he’s sipping on some bourbon watching the game after his day of Zoom meetings in his kitchen at his $600k job. That’s the scam.