medical chart reviews for income during residency

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juddson said:
You seem to be suffering from some sort of persecutory anxiety, paricularly if it interferes with your work.

Judd

Not just me, the whole industry. Everyone I know practices defensive medicine and worries about getting sued all the time. Many of the docs I know have put their homes in trusts, given away all possessions to family members (on paper) and engage on other schemes hoping for asset protection. This is what med mal in its current aberration has done. This is what practicing medicine is today. Implying that we should just plod along acting like we don't have the sword of Damaclese hanging over our heads is unrealistic.

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It seems like this definitely gets people riled up. If there is so much wrong with the med mal system, which I believe there is, why aren't all of us doing somthing about it. How much time does each of us spend on this site? Some people have over 2000+posts. Instead of bitching and whining about it, why not write a letter to your congressman. In fact-write 2000 of them instead of kicking the same dead horse over and over. That is also a huge problem that physicians have as a whole. I don't promote unions or walk outs, but until physicians grab their balls, which many have begun to do, leaving town, having trauma centers close, etc... People get the message if we act together. How many senators in Congress are Physicians-I Think there is one. How many are attorneys? Too numerous to count. If all of us want to change the system, stop complaining and do something about it instead of speaking to those of us who agree with you. I challenge each of you to write a letter to your congressman and speak your mind. Get involved and stop telling us how bad it it is. It's kind of like the principle that you can't complain about the president if you didn't vote.
 
lawmd said:
It seems like this definitely gets people riled up. If there is so much wrong with the med mal system, which I believe there is, why aren't all of us doing somthing about it. How much time does each of us spend on this site? Some people have over 2000+posts. Instead of bitching and whining about it, why not write a letter to your congressman. In fact-write 2000 of them instead of kicking the same dead horse over and over. That is also a huge problem that physicians have as a whole. I don't promote unions or walk outs, but until physicians grab their balls, which many have begun to do, leaving town, having trauma centers close, etc... People get the message if we act together. How many senators in Congress are Physicians-I Think there is one. How many are attorneys? Too numerous to count. If all of us want to change the system, stop complaining and do something about it instead of speaking to those of us who agree with you. I challenge each of you to write a letter to your congressman and speak your mind. Get involved and stop telling us how bad it it is. It's kind of like the principle that you can't complain about the president if you didn't vote.

I've written several letters to my congressman and state representatives. Every time though, the trial lawyers provide more support and money and any reform initiatives get blocked. I agree that doctors as a whole need to do much more. But that fact is not an excuse for the behavior of trial lawyers.
 
juddson said:
I 100% reject the notion that the legal tort system does more harm than good on balance.
Judd

I'd love to hear what you are basing this conlusion on.

Let me reiterate the numbers from the study I posted earlier:

A study in New York that reviewed medical records from over 30,000 hospital discharges and 3500 malpractice claims:

"Only 2 percent of negligent injuries resulted in claims, and only 17 percent of claims appeared to involve a negligent injury. Weiler et al. have suggested the analogy of a traffic cop who regularly gives out more tickets to drivers who go through green lights than to those who run red lights."



In addition to not doing it's job, the med mal system fosters an environment of defensive medicine which causes physicians to order expensive and invasive tests that aren't indicated, driving up health costs and putting patients at undue risk. The resulting increased costs of "defensive medicine" undoubtledly contribute enormously to the problem of providing affordable health care to the under and unsinsured. The broken medical malpractice system is the #1 problem with health care in the US, and it definately does more harm than good.
 
Sledge2005 said:
I've written several letters to my congressman and state representatives. Every time though, the trial lawyers provide more support and money and any reform initiatives get blocked. I agree that doctors as a whole need to do much more. But that fact is not an excuse for the behavior of trial lawyers.


That is good that you have written, but have any of your friends? if everyone in your med school class wrote 5 letters, then that is 500 letters or more. If every medical student would write 5 letters, then that is 20K at least!!! maybe some of the real go getters at AMSA could attack this problem instead of focusing on some of the warm and fuzzy things out there.

You have to encourage everyone to do it, but so many of it think it is impossible to change, we think the other guy will write the letter and no one does.
 
MoosePilot said:
And a lawyer that gets an unjustified settlement also gets a huge fee. You presuppose that every case that's won is won on its merits.

No I don't. I've never said anything of a sort. In fact, I said the exact opposite - that the system needs reform during the liability phase. Are you actually reading what I am writing? But the fact is that even when doctors don't "win" they still get paid. This is not true for attorneys.

The fact is the doctor saves lives. The lawyer doesn't change anything, he just moves money around to compensate for something which already happened.

This is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What doctors do is important. I've never denied that. However, ensuring just compensation for an injured patient is also important. Few here (least of all me) would suggest that one would rather be compensated than treated properly in the first place (no victim of serious malpractice would hesitate to give back all the money for the return of a lost function or part) - when when there HAS been a wrongfull injury, compensation is not superfolous. It's important.

In any event, I don't suspect you are being at all sincere. If you are injured in an automobile accident through the fault of another driver are you going to refuse to sue because, after all, all the money in the world isn't going to return you to a pre-injured state? This is a silly argument.

Judd
 
MoosePilot said:
And a lawyer that gets an unjustified settlement also gets a huge fee. You presuppose that every case that's won is won on its merits.

The fact is the doctor saves lives. The lawyer doesn't change anything, he just moves money around to compensate for something which already happened.

what Sessamoid said.

Judd
 
doctalaughs said:
It is more than an imperfect system -- it is a broken system which does more harm than good. You really think that the majority of cases involve gross negligence?

No. First, most of the cases are won by doctors. This means that there was probably no negligence. Second, the standard is "negligence" not gross negligence. It is my sincere belief that the vast majority of cases that are won at jury or are settled (the vast minority of cases brought) involve negligence or gross negligence. However, the majority of cases filed involves neither of those. Fortunately, most of these are lost at summary judgment or withdrawn.

In any event, a person who runs a red light because they were adjusting the radio is responsible for, at most, ordinary negligence. And yet a family of four can lose their life in a situation like that. On what principled basis should this person who is guilty of only ordinary negligence not have to compensate his victims? And if he must - why should not the same rule apply to the mistakes doctors make?

I don't consider making a sincere mistake (even one a 4th year med student could pick up after doing research) constitutes gross negligence. Consider a radiologist who reads hundreds of studies a day. Is he bound to miss a spot over his career that could lead to cancer, no matter how careful he is? Of course! Could another doctor look at that film and see the spot and say "how could he miss that?" Of course. That is the kind of case that medmal lawyers love, and sue for, and make millions. Real negligence is when a surgeon opens up a patient then leaves him on the table for an hour to go cash a paycheck at the local bank (happend). Not a bad diagnosis call or missing the symptoms once.

Hey - you favor a "gross negligence" system over an "ordinary negligence" system. That's fine. I'm inclined to agree with you. But consider the example given above. People make "honest mistakes" all the time - and sometimes these mistakes cost people their lives or worse. There are two sides to this argument.

The irony, of course, is that all this critical thinking you are getting around to undermines the apporpriatness of an awards cap system like the one so often discussed here. Such a system would PRESERVE the sometimes travesties of justice that take place becasue juries are unable to understand scientific evidence or which sometimes occur when "honest mistakes" lead to findings of liability. The unprincipled system would leave in place the ontological shortcomings of the system and attempt to alleviate their results by putting on, what is in effect, a bandaid.

The thing that is so f*cked up about this system is the horrible percentage of patients that really do get compensated. 1-2% of injured patients get their day in court and only 5% of those see any money.

This is a bit missleading. The overwhelming majority of patients who were wrongfully injured never see a courtroom because they NEVER file a suit in the first place. This is because, for whatever reason (perhaps the doctor exercised good communication) the tort system was never turned to. This is hardly a failing of the system itself. A decision not to sue even when wrongfully injured takes place outside the tort system (generally).

Judd
 
juddson said:
what Sessamoid said.

Judd

My problem with you drawing parallels between docs and lawyers is that docs, even when they're motivated solely by money, always work for the health of the patient, which in pretty much any moral system is "good".

Lawyers work for money. They can get that money whether or not a suit has any merit. That's not good. I don't think you can compare lawyers to doctors for that reason.

That's why I say you're presupposing all cases are won fairly. Because if they're not, there's no way you can draw a moral parallel between docs and lawyers.
 
Sledge2005 said:
I agree these are big issues, but they don't take away from med mal also being a big issue, which you seem to be implying. Furthermore, although you do admit that the med mal system needs reforming, you have no comment on the fact that lawyers are preventing med mal from being reformed. Why so quiet on the issue? And you might be interested to know that part of the reason a lot of doctors don't want to work in low income areas is b/c those patients are statistically more likely to sue. But once again, lawyers would never admit any fault on their part. It's all just the greedy doctors.

I'm not "quiet" on this issue. I don't support the ATLA, nor am I a member of it. Nor am I responsible for defending the legal establishment as a whole. I take my own positions and defend them accordingly.

That said, it is more accurate to say that groups like ATLA resist what I call unprincipled reforms (like award caps) for the exact same reasons I do (going by what is on their website) - they are not just and they have no reasoned basis other than serving an extraneous "interest". Moreover, public watchdog groups like Public Citizen reject these sorts of reforms because they see them for what they really are - sweetheart deals for big pharma, device manufacturers, medical malpractice carriers and (recently) even medical health insurance companies. Again, though, I don't support any one group. I make my own arguments and use data (when available) to support my positions.

Regarding the "low income" argument, I think you are being a bit disengenuous here. Doctors don't like to work in low income areas because, in fact, (1) nobody likes to live or work in low income areas, (2) low income patients are less likely to be able to pay, and (3) low income patients are less likely to be compliant. An honest doctor would peg "more likely to sue" pretty freaking low on the list. Come on, now you're being silly.

Judd
 
unregistered said:
"Only 2 percent of negligent injuries resulted in claims, and only 17 percent of claims appeared to involve a negligent injury. Weiler et al. have suggested the analogy of a traffic cop who regularly gives out more tickets to drivers who go through green lights than to those who run red lights."
[/B]

I already addressed this. The med mal system is gardly responsible for the many many many people who are wrongfully injured failing to file a lawsuit. All evidence suggests that good doctor/patient communication goes a long way in explaining why people choose not to sue. The system can hardly be blaimed for this.

In addition to not doing it's job, the med mal system fosters an environment of defensive medicine which causes physicians to order expensive and invasive tests that aren't indicated, driving up health costs and putting patients at undue risk. The resulting increased costs of "defensive medicine" undoubtledly contribute enormously to the problem of providing affordable health care to the under and unsinsured.

I do not agree. I think the preponderance of "defensive medicine" is the result of consumer demand for uneeded medical tests and procedures. And it is my opinion that much of THAT is the result of the system we currently have in place to pay for medical care. My full opinion on this subject is set forth here: (for which I received some sort of an award from McGyver - still waiting for my mug)

1). Disconnect between healthcare and opportunty costs. It is my opinion that one of the major factors driving up the cost of healthcare is the fact that those people who comsume healthcare (patients) are NOT the same people who directly pay for it. This results in a disconnect between choosing healthcare and the "opportunity costs" of choosing healthcare. When one only has $10 to spend, he can go to the movies OR have lunch. A choice to see a movie involves an opportunity cost (ie., the forgone lunch). Because insurance companies pay for medical care (generally) the patient doesn't have to choose between healthcare and some other set of goods and services. His costs are only impacted in the agrregate and indirectly when premiums are due. This disconnect leads to overconsumption.

2). Dissapearance of the concept of "value". Normally a consumer deciding between two sets of goods or services is attracted to that set which is of the highest utility to him. However, even the better set may be rejected in favor of a less usefull set of goods and services if it is a poor "value", or if a less good (for lack of a better term) set of goods and services represents a particularly good "value" due to a particularly low price. Feraris are nicer cars than Honda Accords. But there's no question which one represents the better value for most people. This sort of calculation does NOT take place when choosing between healthcare goods and services. Nobody says "that triple bi-pass is kind of expensive - I think I'll just go for the angioplasty". In healthcare the "best" set of goods and services is ALWAYS preferred and chosen regardless of cost or any calculation of "value". Again, this is because the consumers of healthcare are not the same ones who pay for it. The connection between consumption and "cost" is too indirect and tenuous.

3). and then there are a whole host of others including the tort system, the unending march of technology, the sale of "cosmetic" or "lifestyle" pharmaceuticals, etc.

In my estimation, one of the ways to bring the cost of healthcare under control (and at the same time, perhaps, improve doctor salaries) is to encourage the sale and purchase of ONLY catastrophic healthcare coverage. This way routine medical care costs are borne directly by those who consume it. This will lead to less over-all consumption but, perhaps, greater overall salaries as doctors will be able to bill and collect a reasonable fee for the time spent. Somehow the dentists have understood this for years. Dental insurance is useless except for catastrophic incidences. Dentists do amazingly well.

Judd

and then we have this from you:
The broken medical malpractice system is the #1 problem with health care in the US . . .

Wrong and wrong. The number one problem in heathcare for the public is the high cost of medical due to the reasons I set forth above and the large number of unsinsured (20% of the population, as I recall). Those of us who can pay for medical care must subsidize those than cannot. On the other hand, the #1 problem with heath care in the US for doctors is the the increasing scope of practice if mid-levels.
 
MoosePilot said:
My problem with you drawing parallels between docs and lawyers is that docs, even when they're motivated solely by money, always work for the health of the patient, which in pretty much any moral system is "good".

Lawyers work for money. They can get that money whether or not a suit has any merit. That's not good. I don't think you can compare lawyers to doctors for that reason.

That's why I say you're presupposing all cases are won fairly. Because if they're not, there's no way you can draw a moral parallel between docs and lawyers.

Well - let me make one thing perfectly clear: The most prevelant comparison on this forum is doctors comparing themselves to lawyers, NOT the other way around. It is only in defense that I am forced to say things like "lawyers are just like doctors" and "lawyers are just people like you and I". But I guess the whole "doctors do soooo much more for society than lawyers do" or "doctors are Soooo much more altruistic than lawyers are" never gets old. :D :D

That said, the argument you are making splits hairs. Docs would NOT work for free (if they did not have to). Witness all the "money" threads and the "half income" threads. There must 2 a week. Moreover, if somebody asked for my honest opinion on why doctors don't like socialized medicine (or various other single payor systems) the answers (if you are being honest) are in this order:

1. money
2. money
3. money
4. patient access
5. money
6. medical techno. . . .who am I kidding? money
7. money
8. medical technology
9. money
10. money

Why are the residency spots in Uro, derm, Ortho and ENT set at artificially uncomptetive levels? Money money money. This is why it takes a month to get in to see one. money.

Money pervades almost every aspect of medical care and at least partially informs every debate. To deny this is ridiculous.

Judd
 
juddson said:
I do not agree. I think the preponderance of "defensive medicine" is the result of consumer demand for uneeded medical tests and procedures. And it is my opinion that much of THAT is the result of the system we currently have in place to pay for medical care. My full opinion on this subject is set forth here: (for which I received some sort of an award from McGyver - still waiting for my mug)
I'm going to have to disagree for myself here. I'm not ordering lots of tests generally to satisfy patients. They often don't even have any knowledge of the diseases I'm concerned about. I'm ordering many of them to give a prospective malpractice lawyer no grounds to even start a lawsuit, because even if it doesn't go to a trial it's going to be incredibly costly for me. Even if I'm sure of my diagnosis by history and exam, I want to make it plain that some test also supports my clinical decision.

The worst cases are workplace injuries and injuries in places of business. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in routinely ordering x-rays for almost all these patients even though many of them don't need them just because I know there's a much higher than average chance that the patient is going to be seeking a malpractice or liability lawyer in the near future. CYA, or get it shot off.
 
juddson said:
I received some sort of an award from McGyver - still waiting for my mug

Uhhh.... its... in the mail....

yeah.... thats the ticket. :thumbup:
 
juddson said:
No. First, most of the cases are won by doctors. This means that there was probably no negligence.

Exactly, however, you're acting like b/c the doctors won the case, then there was no harm done. This is an attitude that makes many doctors want to strangle med mal lawyers. First of all, it costs the defense at least $70,000 (if not more), to bring a typical med mal case to court. Furthermore, even if the doctor wins, his malpractice insurance will still sky rocket ANYWAY. A few "won" cases can be enough to force a surgeon who's never lost a malpractice case to either stop operating or leave the state (thereby uprooting his/her whole family, etc).

Do lawyers care that they're ruining the career of a surgeon who worked their a$$ off through 10 years of post college training (much of which is under basically inhumane conditions)? Nope, why should they? To the laywers, it's all about the money!
 
juddson said:
That said, it is more accurate to say that groups like ATLA resist what I call unprincipled reforms (like award caps) for the exact same reasons I do (going by what is on their website) - they are not just and they have no reasoned basis other than serving an extraneous "interest".

Well what reforms do you suggest then? So far, no other plausible reforms have gotten any attention that I'm aware of. You definitely won't see ATLA suggesting any reforms, they'll do whatever it takes to keep making the big bucks at the expense of healthcare.


juddson said:
Regarding the "low income" argument, I think you are being a bit disengenuous here. Doctors don't like to work in low income areas because, in fact, (1) nobody likes to live or work in low income areas, (2) low income patients are less likely to be able to pay, and (3) low income patients are less likely to be compliant. An honest doctor would peg "more likely to sue" pretty freaking low on the list. Come on, now you're being silly.

Judd

Nope, you're just making stuff up. Lawsuits are at the top of most doctor's minds these days. It's one thing to assume the liability of seeing patients when you're also getting paid for it. But having to assume additional liability for patients that aren't even going to pay you is very annoying, and a big reason why many docs avoid low income areas.
 
juddson said:
I do not agree. I think the preponderance of "defensive medicine" is the result of consumer demand for uneeded medical tests and procedures. And it is my opinion that much of THAT is the result of the system we currently have in place to pay for medical care.

this is another example of you just making stuff up
 
juddson said:
Well - let me make one thing perfectly clear: The most prevelant comparison on this forum is doctors comparing themselves to lawyers, NOT the other way around. It is only in defense that I am forced to say things like "lawyers are just like doctors" and "lawyers are just people like you and I". But I guess the whole "doctors do soooo much more for society than lawyers do" or "doctors are Soooo much more altruistic than lawyers are" never gets old. :D :D

It doesn't get old b/c it's so obviously true. But don't just ask people on this forum, go take a poll almost anywhere. Ask people "Who does more good for society, doctors or lawyers?"

juddson said:
That said, the argument you are making splits hairs. Docs would NOT work for free (if they did not have to). Witness all the "money" threads and the "half income" threads. There must 2 a week. Moreover, if somebody asked for my honest opinion on why doctors don't like socialized medicine (or various other single payor systems) the answers (if you are being honest) are in this order:

1. money
2. money
3. money
4. patient access
5. money
6. medical techno. . . .who am I kidding? money
7. money
8. medical technology
9. money
10. money

Why are the residency spots in Uro, derm, Ortho and ENT set at artificially uncomptetive levels? Money money money. This is why it takes a month to get in to see one. money.

Money pervades almost every aspect of medical care and at least partially informs every debate. To deny this is ridiculous.

Judd

Nobody ever said that money is not a factor at all. It's definitely a factor with most doctors. However, with most doctors, money is just one factor out of many. It's not something they'll sell their souls over like med mal lawyers do.

And btw, if there was some method to socialize medicine w/o affecting my future salary, I'd still be vehemently against it.
 
Sledge2005 said:
And btw, if there was some method to socialize medicine w/o affecting my future salary, I'd still be vehemently against it.

Why?
 
Old MD said:

I don't want to turn this thread away from the current topic and into a socialized medicine debate. If you use the search function, you'll find a ton of other threads dedicated to discussing that issue. The main reasons are:
-quality of care
-timeliness care
-government inefficiency and waste
-state of foreign socialized medical systems
 
MacGyver said:
Uhhh.... its... in the mail....

yeah.... thats the ticket. :thumbup:

Good!! I can't HARDLY wait for this mug. Can I get some sort of a certificate to frame as well?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Judd
 
Sledge2005 said:
Nobody ever said that money is not a factor at all. It's definitely a factor with most doctors. However, with most doctors, money is just one factor out of many. It's not something they'll sell their souls over like med mal lawyers do.

Well I went a bit farther, didn't I. I didn't say it was A factor, I said it was the MOST important factor, and by some margin. Money is loved by doctors as much as by lawyers - in the aggregate. And as to whether doctors "sell their souls" for it, well, I don't know. These come close:

1). Setting the number of residency spots in Uro, Derm, Rads and ortho at artificially low numbers in order to protect salaries - all at the expense of patient access.

2). Engaging in cozy relationships with big pharm and device manufacturing companies.

3). Hiring and encouraging the expansion of the scope of practice of mid-level practitioners for the purposes of short-term financial gains (ie., selling out the next generation of MD's and DO's so that today's MD's (yesterday's really) can submit multiple codes.)

4). Opening up so-called "imaging centers" in strip malls and shopping centers with no purpose other than to prey on the insecurities and fears of an unsuspecting public who thinks cancer is lurking in every crevace.

I'm sure there are others. Doctors are human, as are lawyers. To suggest that docs somehow corner the market on altruism is ridiculous.

Judd
 
juddson said:
To suggest that docs somehow corner the market on altruism is ridiculous.

Judd

I wouldn't say that docs corner the market on altruism. I would say that medicine has not erected an entire industry devoted to ruining other professionals as law has.

I disagree that money is the most important factor for docs. I'm not payed anywhere near enough to do my job but I still do it. I would happily take a big pay cut if it would get the med mal monkey off my back and remove the jackpot mentality from my pt's minds.
 
docB-the quote after your name is priceless, would make a great t-shirt.
 
docB said:
I wouldn't say that docs corner the market on altruism. I would say that medicine has not erected an entire industry devoted to ruining other professionals as law has.
.

This shows how miopic you are. Are you actually reading what you are writing? The "industry" of law was erected to facilitate the progress of a free society (compare to societies that do not recognize the "rule of law" and see what I mean). That side of the law concerned with tort was "erected" to allocate the costs of "loss" to those who are most responsible for them.

Be a bit more circumspect.
Judd
 
Here is why i HATE lawyers......these among other reasons.....anyone who works for a malpractice attorney should be banished from receiving health care.....and YES this goes along with the Hippocratic Oath from a MACROscopic perspective which doctors need to take a hard look at if they really care about their patients.....

1. I see a lacking of honesty. There never was a person who would want an honest lawyer.

2. The court system is a joke. It is currently used as a lottery system to award people $$> Anyone honest would agree to this. I don't understand why lawyers refuse to address this problem....well i do...$$. Doctors attempt to address problems in their industry. But anytime you try to address problems such as geriatrics physicians abusing the system you get countersued. Another lawyer causing you problems.

3. I do way to much unneccesary paperwork. Its a pain in the ass and it all is a result of litigation.

4. I make too many decisions based on how not to be sued. That is bad medicine. It is not cost effective either.

5. I am sick and tired of hearing and reading equivocal consults -- you get these from any consult in medicine, any pathology report, and any radiology report. Why are they equivocal you may ask? I dont want to get sued.

6. This one involves career testifiers. Some doctors make 75-80%++ of their income testifying. And they will say almost anything to get that $$. Currently medical associations are trying to crack down on this abuse. But guess who again sticks up for the crooked physician? Trial lawyers.....

7. Juries are selected to be uneducated so that emotion is the end all in the court room. Reason is thrown out the window. Anyone feels sympathetic for someone whom life has thrown a curveball. The kid who is born with cerebral palsy and the family involved has a tough road ahead. Now using exactly no science to blame the doctor is not only wrong but it is cruel.

8. Time spent in the courtroom costs lots of $$ for doctors, their employees and it also hurts patients as lists get backed up further. This time and $$ is not ever reimbursed.


MY SOLUTION: Its right in the Constitution.....A jury should consist of one's peers.....a doctor's peers are fellow physicians.....no one else is capable of instituting JUSTICE.....the common man cannot....it takes years of training to know what is and what isn't right in medicine.....
 
I like Indiana's idea. If you want to bring a malpractice suit, it has to be reviewed by a panel of medical personnel. You can still bring the suit no matter what the panel finds, but the review can be used at the trial. No one is prevented from bringing suit; patients who are truely injured are justly compensated (no caps), incompetent or negligent physicians are punished; and, physicians are protected from frivolous suits, and not driven out of practice by outrageous insurance premiums.

I don't have data to back this up, but have been told that Indiana has one of the lowest malpractice insurance rates. (And I'm in a state where large numbers of physicians are leaving practice for insurance reasons- could you afford 36k a year as a general internist in private practice?)
 
Annette said:
I like Indiana's idea. If you want to bring a malpractice suit, it has to be reviewed by a panel of medical personnel. You can still bring the suit no matter what the panel finds, but the review can be used at the trial. No one is prevented from bringing suit; patients who are truely injured are justly compensated (no caps), incompetent or negligent physicians are punished; and, physicians are protected from frivolous suits, and not driven out of practice by outrageous insurance premiums.

Great idea-why doesn't everyone who reads this copy and paste this suggestion into a letter to your congressman and senator. Let's do something instead of blindly HATING the attorneys.
 
juddson said:
This shows how miopic you are. Are you actually reading what you are writing? The "industry" of law was erected to facilitate the progress of a free society (compare to societies that do not recognize the "rule of law" and see what I mean). That side of the law concerned with tort was "erected" to allocate the costs of "loss" to those who are most responsible for them.

Be a bit more circumspect.
Judd

Tort was created to address loss. The industry of med mal has sprung up to profit from a broken and deeply flawed system. You can point to facilitation of a free society all you want but that's not what the current med mal industry is about. I'm not really interested in being more circumspect. You don't try to convince the cattle how noble the butchers at the slaughterhouse are. Med mal is broken and unfair. Until it's fixed plaintiffs and lawyers are the problem.
 
Annette said:
I like Indiana's idea. If you want to bring a malpractice suit, it has to be reviewed by a panel of medical personnel. You can still bring the suit no matter what the panel finds, but the review can be used at the trial. No one is prevented from bringing suit; patients who are truely injured are justly compensated (no caps), incompetent or negligent physicians are punished; and, physicians are protected from frivolous suits, and not driven out of practice by outrageous insurance premiums.

I don't have data to back this up, but have been told that Indiana has one of the lowest malpractice insurance rates. (And I'm in a state where large numbers of physicians are leaving practice for insurance reasons- could you afford 36k a year as a general internist in private practice?)

These sound like great ideas. I have advocated many of them on these forums before. They are principled and go to the root of the problem (as far as doctors should be concerned) which is that lay juries do not have the knowledge to evaluate the cases correctly. I have no problem with this.

Judd
 
docB said:
Tort was created to address loss. The industry of med mal has sprung up to profit from a broken and deeply flawed system. You can point to facilitation of a free society all you want but that's not what the current med mal industry is about. I'm not really interested in being more circumspect. You don't try to convince the cattle how noble the butchers at the slaughterhouse are. Med mal is broken and unfair. Until it's fixed plaintiffs and lawyers are the problem.

It may very weel be broken and unfair (see Annette's post above), but it was NOT erected to profit off the back of the medical profession. It's simply a branch of tort law, no different that regular tort law itself.

Judd
 
juddson said:
It may very weel be broken and unfair (see Annette's post above), but it was NOT erected to profit off the back of the medical profession. It's simply a branch of tort law, no different that regular tort law itself.

Judd

There's a difference between the legal basis for med mal, which was created for all the reasons you point to, and the industry that sprang up to take advantage of inadequacies in the law. When tort law created it was not with the intention that a PI attorney would be on the back cover of every phone book in the nation. Just like med mal that industry grew because of problems with the law.

BTW I personally think that if we got meaningful med mal reform it would solve about 40% of the problems in medicine. We have our own issues to work out. Unforunately many problems can't be fixed without med mal reform first.
 
docB said:
There's a difference between the legal basis for med mal, which was created for all the reasons you point to, and the industry that sprang up to take advantage of inadequacies in the law. When tort law created it was not with the intention that a PI attorney would be on the back cover of every phone book in the nation. Just like med mal that industry grew because of problems with the law.
To be fair, part of the rise of the med mal industry was the real and perceived public view that historically the medical profession has done a rather piss-poor job of self-policing and removing incompetent and dangerous physicians from practice. I think that in part, we have our predecessors to blame for mess we are currently in.
 
Sessamoid said:
To be fair, part of the rise of the med mal industry was the real and perceived public view that historically the medical profession has done a rather piss-poor job of self-policing and removing incompetent and dangerous physicians from practice. I think that in part, we have our predecessors to blame for mess we are currently in.

I agree with that. However it's the lure of gold that has really driven the system to its current level of perversion.
 
Sessamoid said:
To be fair, part of the rise of the med mal industry was the real and perceived public view that historically the medical profession has done a rather piss-poor job of self-policing and removing incompetent and dangerous physicians from practice. I think that in part, we have our predecessors to blame for mess we are currently in.


in America we have this thing called the "invisible hand" which drives bad business out of the marketplace.....

bad doctors eventually will have no more patients....

nothing else is needed....if you are incompetent enough to not do your research on your physician, you as a patient are irresponsible as a consumer and an American

Communist Russia believes in more and more regulatory agencies....the former United States did not
 
gruntmanIII said:
in America we have this thing called the "invisible hand" which drives bad business out of the marketplace.....

bad doctors eventually will have no more patients....

nothing else is needed....if you are incompetent enough to not do your research on your physician, you as a patient are irresponsible as a consumer and an American

Communist Russia believes in more and more regulatory agencies....the former United States did not

While I'm a big fan of market pressures, it's not that clear cut in medicine. You might not go to a doc that has a bad record, but it sucks to be the patients who establish that bad record.
 
well it would suck to by a single mom having to raise 5 kids on a small income aft er her husband left too all because her divorce lawyer was cheap....

can we sue the lawyer? heck no....

your reasoning here makes absolute no sense....a doctor's job and the market forces are no different than other profession
 
gruntmanIII said:
well it would suck to by a single mom having to raise 5 kids on a small income aft er her husband left too all because her divorce lawyer was cheap....

can we sue the lawyer? heck no....

your reasoning here makes absolute no sense....a doctor's job and the market forces are no different than other profession

Well, they really are if you think about patients that are put in an emergent situation. Are you really going to shop around for the best Emergency and Trauma docs after you get in multivehicle MVA and are bleeding out in the ambulance?
 
probably not in that ONE specific situation.....

however, an ER doc is generally employed by a hospital....and if he/she is not performing up to par....it shouldn't be that hard to terminate him (actually it is....again because of lawyers)

if the hospital does not fire him, there will be public outcry....and again the market forces prevail
 
gruntmanIII said:
probably not in that ONE specific situation.....

however, an ER doc is generally employed by a hospital....and if he/she is not performing up to par....it shouldn't be that hard to terminate him (actually it is....again because of lawyers)

if the hospital does not fire him, there will be public outcry....and again the market forces prevail
You really have no idea what you're talking about. An "ER doc" is generally NOT employed by a hospital. Generally, we form professional groups that serve as contract services for hospitals.

As far as terminating an EP, it's not difficult at all. The contract holder for the hospital just has to stop putting that particular physician on the schedule. For those physicians that ARE employees of the contract holder or HMO, law vary depending on where you live. California is an "at will" employment state, meaning that employees may be terminated at any time for any reason (excepting certain anti-discrimination laws) subject to the terms of your contract.

Speaking with such certainty on topics which you clearly do not have the facts nor experience doesn't give much credence to your arguments.

In addition, your rather basic understanding of macroeconomics is inadequate to understanding the complexities of the health care economy. There have long been recognized (and documented) externalities in the health care market which prevent simple free markets from providing the optimal care for all our citizens. Blind faith in the perfection of Adam Smith's "invisible hand" will not fix a system that is broken by design.
 
ok genius....learn to understand general terms....the contract offered to the group by the hospital would then be terminated if the physician services were bad....

market forces would not put up with that.....

tell me what these "external forces" are which are placing my understanding of the health care economy as inadequate.....please enlighten
 
gruntmanIII said:
ok genius....learn to understand general terms....the contract offered to the group by the hospital would then be terminated if the physician services were bad....

market forces would not put up with that.....

tell me what these "external forces" are which are placing my understanding of the health care economy as inadequate.....please enlighten
Not "external forces", but "externalities". It's hard to explain a whole course in economics. You'll have to do some education on your own. But the "invisible hand" presumes no externalities, perfectly fluid markets (clearly not present in health care), perfectly informed consumers (our consumers often can barely read, and where are they supposed to get information on quality of physicians anyway?), no barriers to entry (significant barriers to entry in physician markets as well as the pharmaceutical and hospital markets), perfectly fluid worker mobility (try selling a practice and starting a new one), etc. It's a theoretical construct that has use as a teaching tool and general guide, but in no way is it adequate to explain the real world of economics, in health care or otherwise. I find your excess of faith... disturbing.
 
gruntmanIII said:
probably not in that ONE specific situation.....

however, an ER doc is generally employed by a hospital....and if he/she is not performing up to par....it shouldn't be that hard to terminate him (actually it is....again because of lawyers)

if the hospital does not fire him, there will be public outcry....and again the market forces prevail

Is it really just ONE situation, as you say above?

....A 40 year old woman admitted to the hospital with Cholecystitis....a 16 year old who breaks his fibula in an evening soccer match...a young boy who presents to an EP or FP in DKA...a business man with acute onset of chest pain...a nursing home patient with SOB and CAP....teenager with an overdose...Or the guy I saw yesterday that had no insurance (like all my patients at the county hospital) and developed scrotal abscesses and was hurting from the nipples down....are they really going to want to shop around and research the credentials of their potential docs?

This list could have gone on for a long time, and we could adjust insurance status, age, degree of acuity, and presenting complaint. I just don't think it is so simple.
 
By the way, Sessamoid is right. Emergency docs are generally not employed by the hospital. And I've not had any experience with a public outcry calling for a physician's removal. I think that would assume that the public had intimate and difinitive knowlege of malpractice on the part of one individual. Its usually not that simple (that seems to be the theme here).
 
yes please tell us already how to find jobs- like this it sounds interesting and i desperately need money!!!!!
 
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