MD vs M.B., B.S/BMBS

[MBA_Doc]

To get an MD degree in the US, it takes on average 4 years of a fairly science intensive undergrad curriculum and 4 years of medical school.

To get an MBBS degree from a typical IMG institution (say from India), it is an integrated 6 year program. In such countries, to obtain the MD degree is an additional 2 years of post graduate study - which most IMG's don't bother to do.

I find it funny how IMG's with an MBBS degree are so quick to dump that name, and call themselves MD's.

Just based on the facts above, it doesn't seem that the MBBS degree would even compare to a DO, much less an MD. So it is funny when someone posts a message calling themselves an "IMG MD". There is no such thing!

Pl bear in mind that my first hand experience is only with IMG's from India, Pakistan and Singapore. Not sure of the other countries.

I expect to be flamed for this one, but that's not going to stop me from expressing my opinion.



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[Johnny69]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc
To get an MD degree in the US, it takes on average 4 years of a fairly science intensive undergrad curriculum and 4 years of medical school.

To get an MBBS degree from a typical IMG institution (say from India), it is an integrated 6 year program. In such countries, to obtain the MD degree is an additional 2 years of post graduate study - which most IMG's don't bother to do.

I find it funny how IMG's with an MBBS degree are so quick to dump that name, and call themselves MD's.

Just based on the facts above, it doesn't seem that the MBBS degree would even compare to a DO, much less an MD. So it is funny when someone posts a message calling themselves an "IMG MD". There is no such thing!

Pl bear in mind that my first hand experience is only with IMG's from India, Pakistan and Singapore. Not sure of the other countries.

I expect to be flamed for this one, but that's not going to stop me from expressing my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your immaturity and lack of knowledge regarding this issue. In Australia, to gain entrance into Medicine straight out of high school is exceptionally difficult.

For instance, to gain entrance into the University of New South Wales medicine program you would require a UAI (Universities Admission Index) of nothing less than 99.60 (out of 100), so the people who are in these programs are the very top of the cream of the proverbial "Cream of the Crop", so your provocation that these students are sub-standard is quite far from the truth.

Secondly, approx half of our Medical Programs in Australia are also post Graduate programs, identical to the US programs, requiring a degree of no less than 3 years, followed by 4 years of Medical school.

As an Australian, i would be perfectly, and legally recognized in the US as an M.D (without the additional 2 years learning that you speak of). Although keep in mind that MD is not the gold standard, it is the qualification given to Doctors in the US, other countries have other standards and classifications, they just happen to be a different set of Synonyms. MD = Medical Doctor, which is an indicative status of the Doctor. MBBS = Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery, which is indicative of the credentials of the doctor. This does not imply one is superior over the other, that is your (might i add ignorant) interpretation.

IMG is also a term adopted by US culture, it implies that anyone who did not graduate from a US medical school is then by definition an IMG, from the perspective of the US. Similarly, by definition a medical graduate from the US is by definition an IMG from an Australia perspective. You can play with synonyms until you ease your misplaced ego, but you are not fooling anyone.

You mentioned we are quick to dump the name MBBS, and adopt MD, well.... WHEN IN ROME!

Once again i will point out that MBBS is a status of graduate qualifications it is a recognition of qualification, nobody calls themselves an MBBS when verbally.

You mentioned that MBBS would not even compare to a DO... Indicative that a DO in the US is a substandard of allopathic medicine. A lesser profession perhaps.

1 - Try mentioning that in the DO forums, and i am sure they will shoot you down in far more creative and tactical means then i am capable of

2 - Yes you are right, an MBBS does not compare to a DO anywhere outside of the US, because DOs are allopathic professionals within the US ONLY. That means here in Australia and European countries Osteopaths are still traditional, i.e. they do not perform surgery or prescribe drugs, they do not do hospital clinical rotations.

Your assumption however is excusable, because it is prevalent that since something is one way in the US, then you ignorantly assume it is identical in all other parts of the world. You are narrow sited, naive and particularly un-cultured, but then i would expect no more of you. Why don?t you go eat some Maccas or something, that is after your national cuisine right??

Your right, you should not be stopped from expressing your opinion, however membership to these forums is a privilege, not a express entitlement.

Insightful contributions towards this board are appreciated. Narrow minded, unfounded and prejudice posts however, are not!

If the US medical system allows people like yourself into the industry, then Non US trained Medical Doctors are the least of the US public's concerns.

Your personality and callous, unfounded pettiness (confusion is a better word, because you seem somewhat delusional) towards other medical professionals is a Sub-Standard, IMHO, i hope it is not indicative of the entire US medical society, but then i am not one to make ignorant and *****ic assumptions.

I guess the only correct thing you mentioned/predicted was that you would be flamed for such a post.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc
To get an MD degree in the US, it takes on average 4 years of a fairly science intensive undergrad curriculum and 4 years of medical school.

To get an MBBS degree from a typical IMG institution (say from India), it is an integrated 6 year program. In such countries, to obtain the MD degree is an additional 2 years of post graduate study - which most IMG's don't bother to do.

I find it funny how IMG's with an MBBS degree are so quick to dump that name, and call themselves MD's.

Just based on the facts above, it doesn't seem that the MBBS degree would even compare to a DO, much less an MD. So it is funny when someone posts a message calling themselves an "IMG MD". There is no such thing!

Pl bear in mind that my first hand experience is only with IMG's from India, Pakistan and Singapore. Not sure of the other countries.

I expect to be flamed for this one, but that's not going to stop me from expressing my opinion.



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Best Motion Picture Car Chase = The Matrix Reloaded

HHAHAHAHAHAHAH this is the 2nd funniest post I have seen. MBA Doc you have got to be the most persistent spreader of half truths I have ever met. Most of us make mistakes and then try and correct ourselves, but you keep on making them and keep on thinking you are correct.

1) MBBS - Bachelor of medicine, Bachelor of Surgery is one of the most common degrees for medicine you can get the "MD" is only used in a few countries - Canada/US/Caribbean. In most countries the MD stands for a person who has completed one or more years of research on top of the MBBS...again not the same as a US MD. If you went outside of the North America most ppl. would not even know what an MD was....since the MBBS is very easily recognized all over asia/england/australia/nz etc....So MBADOC how many US med students bother to "earn" the MD and do an extra 1-2 years of research??

2) Think about it, you can get into an MD degree with NO SCIENCE TRAINING AT ALL...mcmaster university in Canada (which is recognized in the US by the way) HAS NO PREREQS!! NONE... an art student fresh off a couple of painting classes with a 90% average could basically become a doctor in 4 years...(no offence to art students). Compare that to the typical MBBS - 2 years of medical science/some clinicals and 4 years of pure clinicals...how is this substandard??? You are getting 2 EXTRA YEARS!!!

3) Why do IMGs dump the MBBS name? The simple answer is ppl like you! People who have probably never heard of an MBBS because you sit in front of the tv watching ER all day, and that's about the level of your knowledge....If a doctor doesn't have an MD he's not a doctor (and that's why there is a DO stigma as well)...so when you can legally do something and it's easier for ppl like you to understand, why not do it??? It sure as heck avoids the hassle of trying to explain to someone that an MBBS is actually the same thing....

4) Again you are right most MBBS programs (not all are 6 years though) do not compare to the average MD or DO program, because they are an EXTRA 2 years long.


5) Okay honestly do you even know anything about Singapore? Have you ever been to Singapore?? They have some of the best hospitals I have ever seen, not to mention some top notch doctors (from all around the world). I would not go around trying to insult a Singaporean doctor unless you can actually say you know something about the system.

P.S. please do not get any broken bones or try and use the services of a radiologist, because of your fear of Indian/Pakistani doctors I have to give you a warning:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/983161.asp?vts=102220030543

Who knows...your next radiology scan could be *read* by an Indian doctor ...one with an MBBS and not even "board" certified...

 

[redshifteffect]

You know Johnny69 here makes a good point too MBADOC.

Most highschool leavers need at least a highschool mark of around 99.5 to get into Melbourne Uni...and the same for Monash. Even in Tas the CUTOFF is 97 percent. For internationals the marks are also very high...not ur typical college program.

Keeping in mind that with my highschool marks I got into Accelerated programs in the US and to medical programs in Australia....so I would say that getting into medicine in the US is no different than getting into medicine in Australia...they are both pretty difficult...

You can not honestly think that the US is the only place in the world where it's tough to get into medicine? There are Australians in Caribbean and UK universities because they couldn't get into med back home!!!

 

[MBA_Doc]

Relax - don't get your blood pressure up.

Its not just my perception, its one that is quite widely shared.

Instead of going off on me - try to think of ways you can dispel the myth, if indeed it is so.

Cheers,
Ken

 

[tl47]

Hey there... why you are called MBA Doc by the way? Is the Doc just a means to make you a more successful MBA by any chance?

Anyway, yes, I guess you have your points MBA_Doc. As long as you stay in US, it's arguable if a foreign degree (regardless of how good it is or what it is) would be better than a degree from Medical University for Idiots, USA. Sadly so, but it is true. I think nobody should bother arguing against it, except perhaps try their best to slowly cultivate the idea that this isn't so in the general public/society. The reason it is true is merely that all the people around here have these preconception. When I first inform people I'm going to Australia, they ask, "Why Australia? Why not US?" And usually, they ask not because they wonder why I decide not to stay in US, but why choose somewhere inferior. It's sad, but I think it's true. So let's not go about and keep belaboring this point. Point well taken. Let's move on...

Yet, all the other claims about how US education is better, US this or that is better, is all nonsense. And I think others can/have/should continue to dispel them. And in fact, I think it is for US's sake that people try to dispel them, because little do Americans know they are living in the dark ages compared to many places in the world now! We have the lousiest this and that, really! If we continue to close our minds and our sight from the rest of the world, this place will be sunk. We already have a nearly self-destructive medical care system. A nearly self-destructive justice system. etc. etc. So let's stop being so arrogant. If the world isn't pegged to USD, we would not be able to run up trillions of dollars of debt (around 6 trillion last I check two years ago, and it grows by about 1 billion everyday) without repercussions as other countries did/do/would when they have deficits. Of course we also have lots of WMD, so understandably no one would dare challenge us, eh? (Go to www.whitehouse.gov and check on military policies if you think this is just a joke). And if you are an MBA you should know something about international currency trade, check: http://www.kitco.com/ind/Field/june202002.html .

Anyway, for your arguments, again, just quote some real facts. In US, they are big into evidence-based medicine (as if THAT's new! hahaha, what's the scientific process?). Why don't you show some evidence for your claims, and then we can study it and look into them. If you only have conjectures of one being better than the other, what's the difference between asking for a mud-fight? Stop spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt)! Just give us the facts, and let it speak for itself! If you show yourself ignorant, then let's all see it for themselves. If you show facts, and prove the world ignorant, so let that be. Otherwise, go get yourself a law degree.

 

[tl47]

BTW, MBA_DOC, the postgraduate program in Australia requires an undergraduate degree. And sadly, it's still a Bachelors degree. So, maybe their standard is just a little higher, where after a B.S./BA, you enter medicine just to get another Bachelors. You can then continue to get an MD (via research years) and then a Ph.D. if you want.

For me, I already have an MS, so I guess that's really a step back! So, don't jump to conclusion just based on number of years studied. Hey, I finished my B.S. in 2.5 years (with >3.5 CGPA, from a top 3 school in my field at time of entrance/USNews), so maybe those Australians just study as much as a US 4 year degree in two years for the undergraduate program.

Nay, show some real facts like Aussie doctors aren't able to do something American doctors managed to do in real life, or something of that sort. Not just far off data, with some conjectures to make your point. I can say that if you remove the CT scan from the hospitals in US, a lot of doctors will be lost about what to do . They are too used to good equipment. But again, that's not a data, just a conjecture. I can also give numbers of CT scan and MRI machines they have in US/hospital versus one in India, and say that Indian doctors are more skilled as they can do more with less. But again, that's a far off data to back a point (linked via conjectures).

 

[driedcaribou]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc
Relax - don't get your blood pressure up.

Its not just my perception, its one that is quite widely shared.

Instead of going off on me - try to think of ways you can dispel the myth, if indeed it is so.

Cheers,
Ken

It's a question of terminology rather than a representation of your qualifications.

I don't see why you said, 'think of ways to dispel the myth' when you obviously didn't read any of the replies that were written.

I hope you realize that the MD degree is NOT a graduate degree in North America. That is the myth that you think is fact.


I am pretty sure I read a University calendars explaining the MD program they specify that it is NOT a graduate degree.

It just sounds like one because it has the title 'Doctor of Medicine'.

Is there a way you can get a Ph.D and be called a doctor in any other discipline without getting a Bachelor's degree beforehand?

You can enter a MD program with only 3 years of University in North America... no prior degree necessary.

Use some common sense here. You don't write a thesis to get a MD. You don't do any research. How is that a true graduate degree?

Most people generally have Bachelor's degree under their belt before they get their medical education hence the 'higher' specification you get when you graduate.


And it can be more than just 2 years of post-graduate training to be called a MD in other countries. It's a much more prestigious title. Did you do any research at all? I have the feeling you're just trolling this board trying to incite arguments.

You didn't address any of the points made by the other 2 posters.

And when an IMG comes to the US or Canada and finishes all their equivalency exams they have the right to call themselves a MD by law I believe.

Even if I am wrong on that account, please explain why they have MD/Ph.D programs?

If you're already a 'doctor' why do they need the Ph.D designation?

Because a MD is not a Ph.D. It's not like getting 2 doctorates. The MD is not a doctorate at all.

End of story.

 

[driedcaribou]

Why don't you just read this:

http://kudzu.ipr.sc.edu/dataware/Deglev.htm

Associate I, Creditable: An award that normally requires at least two, but less than
four years of full time equivalent college work that can be used as a credit towards
the award of a four-year degree.

Associate II, Non-Creditable: An award that normally requires at least two, but less
than four years of full time equivalent college work that cannot be used as credit
toward the award of a four degree. Inactive as of 10-18-94.

Four or Five Year Baccalaureate: An award that normally requires at least four, but not
more than five years of full time equivalent college-level work. This includes ALL
bachelor's degrees conferred in a cooperative or work-study plan or program. Also includes
bachelor's degrees in which the normal four years of work are completed in three years.

First Professional: An award that requires completion of a program that meets all of the
following criteria:
(1) completion of the academic requirements to begin practice in the profession;
(2) at least two years of college work prior to entrance into the program; and
(3) a total of at least six academic years of college work to complete the degree or
program, including prior required college work plus the length of the professional
program itself. First professional degrees may be awarded in the following fields:
Pharmacy (Phar.D.)
Medicine (M.D.)
Law (L.L.B. or J.D.)

Master's: An award that requires the successful completion of a program of study
of at least the full time equivalent of one, but not more than two years of work
beyond the bachelor's degree.

Post Master's Certificate: An award that requires completion of an organized program
of study of 24 credit hours beyond the master's degree, but does not meet the
requirements of academic degrees at the doctor's level.

Beyond Master's But Less Than Doctoral (Specialist): Requires the completion of an
organized program of study that awards the specialist degree, but does not meet the
requirements of academic degree at the doctor's level.

Doctorate: An award that requires work at the graduate level and terminates in a
doctor's degree.

 

[irisheyes]

Honestly MBA-Doc....I have replied to your ill-informed, amerocentric, flag-waving, "bigger is better, and better is best, we are the U.S" comments before, and I will do so one last time , hopefully with some closure. As a previous poster has commented The MB ( bachelor of medicine) is extremely competitive to get into,perhaps even moreso than the M.D. I could not get into the M.B program in Ireland as a national with a 99th percentile score on the entrance exam!!!!! . Anyway I will in a few years have my M.D. I will return to Ireland and work along side my M.B buddies in the full knowledge that they are every bit as competent with none of the arrogance that you display. Your world view it would seem is blocked by your engorged ego. Oh..yeah...and if you every leave the little nest called America you will be an IMG...and people will posture " M.D?..like a Doctor". You should employ the filter between your brain and your mouth on a full time basis. You would come off as less ignorant. Just a thought.

 

[Johnny69]

Originally posted by irisheyes
Honestly MBA-Doc....I have replied to your ill-informed, amerocentric, flag-waving, "bigger is better, and better is best, we are the U.S" comments before, and I will do so one last time , hopefully with some closure. As a previous poster has commented The MB ( bachelor of medicine) is extremely competitive to get into,perhaps even moreso than the M.D. I could not get into the M.B program in Ireland as a national with a 99th percentile score on the entrance exam!!!!! . Anyway I will in a few years have my M.D. I will return to Ireland and work along side my M.B buddies in the full knowledge that they are every bit as competent with none of the arrogance that you display. Your world view it would seem is blocked by your engorged ego. Oh..yeah...and if you every leave the little nest called America you will be an IMG...and people will posture " M.D?..like a Doctor". You should employ the filter between your brain and your mouth on a full time basis. You would come off as less ignorant. Just a thought.

Im still wiping the tears of laughter from my eyes. Consider your quote "Bigger is Better, and better is Best, we are the U.S" stolen, that is hilarious.


Cheers

 

[irisheyes]

Johny 69..thank you..I completed my undergraduate on a writing scholarship, and that line is taken from a piece I was asked to write about my feelings on the U.S invasion of Irag, american perception, etc., etc.. If you are interested I can pm you the piece,
peace brother...

 

[The Pill Counter]

why do you guys pay him any mind?
should have just let his thread drift into the oblivion.

 

[Johnny69]

Originally posted by irisheyes
Johny 69..thank you..I completed my undergraduate on a writing scholarship, and that line is taken from a piece I was asked to write about my feelings on the U.S invasion of Irag, american perception, etc., etc.. If you are interested I can pm you the piece,
peace brother...

I would appreciate that very much.

Thankyou.

 

[isuru]

Originally posted by irisheyes
Johny 69..thank you..I completed my undergraduate on a writing scholarship, and that line is taken from a piece I was asked to write about my feelings on the U.S invasion of Irag, american perception, etc., etc.. If you are interested I can pm you the piece,
peace brother...

Any chance I would be able to read that? Could you send it to me as well please or post it on here? (if you don't mind).

Thanks
Isuru

 

[MBA_Doc]

You guys obviously take this subject seriously....

However, I've not seen a whole lot of logical reasoning in the (what seems like) 500 replies to my post.

Let me try and make a few statements of fact, and not resort to low level personal statements, that irisheyes and others seem to be very good at...


1 Most of the respondees have been Australians and Irish. Those are not the countries I think of when I think of IMG's in this country.

2. Difficulty to get into a seat into a medical school does not necessarily correlate with quality of medical education.

3. There must be something good about the US medical system for us to have so many foreign trained doctors circulating. Does anyone care to point out other countries that have the same diversity?

4. I know for a fact that several countries (again ... not Aus/Ireland etc) where the STANDARD procedure is to get into med school after high school, after going through an entrance exam. This is an indisputable fact. Go ask any of your Indian compatriots.


If you can't argue logically in your replies and not resort to emotional outbursts, then I will not dignify your reply with a response.

Peace out.

 

[irisheyes]

MBA-DOC...when I suggested you employ the filter between your brain and your mouth...I was urging you to go back and reexamine your initial statements. I am firmly in charge of my emotions I can assure you. I just cannot suffer half-baked assertions, and illogical thinking. BTW my undergrad was in philosophy so I am well versed in logic, thanks. This also leads me to my first point. In your inital post you suggest fairly heavily that because american M.D's and D.O's go through an eight year education it is somehow better than the six year education required for the MBBS. You assert that in the american program you undergo a fairly rigourous undergradute science program. You next postulate that given that one completes eight years and the other completes merely six you cannot understand how an MBBS even equates with a D.O. Fine....let me do the oh..so simple math for you. You actually only spend around one year on average completing courses which are required pre-reqs for med school ( chem,bio, physics,orgo). These are all taken in the first year of an MBBS program also. Even if you do a bio. degree you are required to spend a portion of your time studying plants and animals...so you can't infer that it is truly of medical use. Moreover how is it that on average humanities majors actually score higher than bio,chem and physics on all four sections on an MCAT. Oh..thats right..the test is not there to see if you can understand mitosis...it is there to evaluate your critical thinking and deductive reasoning skills...so really what is the point of having these degrees relative to the practice of medicine?So now lets say we have one year down in the MBBS system five to go, and one year ( pre-req's only-directly relevant to the study of medicine), four left to go ( med school) in the U.S system. Hmmmm....are we beginning to form a picture here. I can tell you as I know the curriculum of Irish schools that some of that extra year is spent studying medical statistics, epedemiology, offering a six month stint in Africa ( dealing with AIDS, cholera etc), nutrition etc., modules that are not part and parcel of U.S med school. I know that you said you were not addressing Irish/ australian schools. Point taken. But if I have just explained to you one six year system do you not think it reasonable...indeed downright logical that most other countries would occupy their time in a similar fashion? I mean you hardly think they are watching bollywood movies saying...oh yes..let us wait for our american counterparts to start medical college before we will open our books and begin to learn the art and science of medicine. Finally it is generally known that the U.S public school system is among the worst in the world. This is why I believe it is necessary for U.S students to actually complete a bachelors before attending medical college. I know I had to take communications 101 and 102. I would go out, drink, maybe smoke, come home, write a paper on my darkest fears, and professors were usually impressed. Little did they know the paper was something akin to what I would have written my 3rd year ( of 5) in highschool. I hardly see how this contributed to my education..do you? The american education system brings everyone up to where they need to be...full stop. When you enter an MBBS program it is by and large considered that you are already at that point...so why waste time on redundant modules? shalom

 

[pxz]

i have to give a hand to MBA-doc here. He is telling the truth about medical education in India/China or any other places where students go directly to medical schools from high school. They are not earning MD, but instead of MB or MBBS.

However, it is just a technical issue here because I see little differenece between a MD graduate in USA and a MBBS graduate in India.

 

[driedcaribou]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc

1 Most of the respondees have been Australians and Irish. Those are not the countries I think of when I think of IMG's in this country.


Regardless, some of the arguments still apply.


2. Difficulty to get into a seat into a medical school does not necessarily correlate with quality of medical education.

That works both ways and implies that the US medical schools aren't neccesarily good either.
Difficulty into getting a seat usually translate into the fact that you are picking those that are motivated the most academically and likely most intelligent in your population.

All systems strive to get the smartest people.



3. There must be something good about the US medical system for us to have so many foreign trained doctors circulating. Does anyone care to point out other countries that have the same diversity?


People go to the US for the way of life.
Compensation for doctors as well as lifestyles the countries you are referring to are horrid.
They do not go because they want to be world class doctors (though some might if they choose to pursue a specialty there and engage in research).

Can you point out any other country that has the same diversity population wise as the US?

All professions, not just doctors, would enjoy migrating to the US.




4. I know for a fact that several countries (again ... not Aus/Ireland etc) where the STANDARD procedure is to get into med school after high school, after going through an entrance exam. This is an indisputable fact. Go ask any of your Indian compatriots.


It is a fact but it is not relevant to the fact that they would make better or worse doctors.
Whether or not an undergraduate education neccesarily make you a better doctor is the question you should be asking.
You can get into a med school in North America with any degree so you cannot argue that an undergraduate education gives you a foundation for the concepts in medical school.

Degrees are titles and do not hold the same weight these days.
For example, anyone can get a Master's degree if they put the time into it. It is not a degree representing academic superiority. It is a matter of time and resources one is willing to commit. Getting a Ph.D is not as hard compared to becoming an associate professor at a University because you need to have 'x' number of papers done.

That being said, you can only argue that the institutions in India offer a poor medical education which is not true because they are based on the British systems and you have not stated any facts about the curriculums offered there.

You are basing your entire argument on the fact that they hold so called 'Bachelor's' degrees and North Americans hold 'Medical Doctorate' degree when I have already stated that this is not a true Doctorate whatsoever.



pxz: Please read my post about the MD designation?
No one is disputing the fact that EVERYWHERE OUTSIDE North America gets a MBBS/MBChB... it is the North Americans who changed their system because the new system required people with some University education.

 

[irisheyes]

pxz and dried caribou are both right..nobody is disputing the fact that the MBBS is a bachelors degree. However MBA-DOC, there is absolutely no grounds to suggest that the M.D ( because of the fact that it is completed usually after a bachelors) makes a better, more competent, or better informed doctor. With that said I am glad I received a liberal arts education, although I doubt I will ever be explaining Kirkegard, or Nietszche to my patients.

 

[driedcaribou]

Originally posted by irisheyes
although I doubt I will ever be explaining Kirkegard, or Nietszche to my patients.

The social aspect of medicine is often ignored and knowledge of existentialist views must definitely help put things into perspective sometimes when the going gets rough.

I was a science student and I hate to generalize but I found that many of my peers could not appreciate literature because they had a lack of knowledge in that area.

I myself am guilty of a lack of knowledge as well but at least I realize what I am missing.

A pure science background runs the risk of generating someone with less empathy. However, it would come in handy when trying to understanding the pathology of diseases.... but that's what textbooks are for right?

 

[redshifteffect]

MBA-DOC,

Regardless of what you think I would like to point out the fact that Asian doctors can be found in every country I've ever seen...

They are in Australia, UK, US and Canada. If their teachings are so substandard surely one of these countries would have been able to "keep them out"...?

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by irisheyes
..although I doubt I will ever be explaining Kirkegard, or Nietszche to my patients.

Except you would be explaining Kierkegaard, or Nietzsche

 

[irisheyes]

yes ...I did mess up the spelling...well done. To be honest I have to admit that I found a philosophy degree more useful as a whole than for its individual parts. I could never fully subscribe to any of these guys ideas exclusively. I believe it is the abiltiy to think outside the box ( which philosophy really does help with) that is the ultimate reward of the degree, and perhaps the reason why so many schools look so favorably upon it ( by the way where I come from we spell favor..f.a.v.o.u.r......anyhew....). I respect your dilligence pitman...i would probably have pounced on that one too. Anyway guys I just got in from bartending for drunk folk for the past 10 hours making decent money...and seriously, if worrying about an MBBS versus an MD means as little to me after a ten hour stint in the E.R as it does after coming from my work, it is a transient, silly fixation...similar to the argument "well my dad is bigger than your dad". Anyone with common sense and objective reasoning knows the truth and the rationale behind the argument. So much for a scholarship in writing.......I can't spell a #$&^&#@#& name???? GOD!!...goodnight...

 

[The Pill Counter]

MBA-doc, what point are you trying to make? I still don't seem to grasp what your whole argument is. Is it that the fact our university decided to follow British tradition and name our primary medical qualification an MBBS that bothers you, or is that you have to see Indian and Chinese doctors work in the US along with US-qualified docs that bothers you? You have not once stated why the name of the degree makes a difference.

And if you really want to talk about the value of the undergraduate science work that Americans do, we had plenty of people at the University of Toronto unable to pass their first year exams only later to be straight A student's in the easier private American colleges in Boston. Perhaps we should discuss why it's easier to get a 4.0 in the US vs. Canada.

I'm Indian, I'm studying in Australia, have studied in Canada, and if I so decide, will train in the US. Does that bother you? Because all I can conclude from your stupid ignorant postings is veiled racist grudges that you're trying to vent.

 

[Purifyer]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86500

This clown isn't even in medical school and all of you are wasting precious oxygen by arguing about points beyond his comprehension? I don't know who's worse

I'm not going to lose any sleep if some bigoted xenophobe thinks that anything outside of America is 3rd world. Oh but he's only talking about India, Pakistan, Asia! You know, only those countries without electricity!*

There's no point in trying to change his point of view as there are 100 million more where that came from. MBA_DOC, in your own interests I'd suggest you only use the internet for webpages such as "cnn.com"... outside of this haven there may be too many dirty foreigners for your liking.


*(note: these countries do have electricity, this is a joke MBA_DOC. I feel saddened that I have to labour the point, but I'm honestly afraid it would have been missed)

 

[MBA_Doc]

Purifyer

I think you're the clown here. Do you think you're superior just because you're in medical school? Well - I pity you. And I think your comment about electricity just reflects the fact that YOU are a racist, not I.

ThePillCounter

Thanks for your pompous post of mentioning how qualified you are. I'm sure all of us are very interested in knowing how great you are. However, as I mentioned AD NAUSEUM in my earlier post, there are certain countries I think of when I think "IMG" - and Canada is not one of them.

I still maintain that the US medical education system is the best in the world. None of what anyone has said has made the slightest impression on me - because your arguments are emotional and rhetorical. The most advanced surgeries are performed here, the best drugs are available here, and the greatest research happens here. If you don't like it, then LUMP IT.

 

[LUBDUBB]

MBA_doc,

the level of high school education people receive in europe/asia in comparable to the first two years of university here in the US. That is, high school graduates over "there" are on the same level as third year college students over "here". After high school, they typically pursue six years of medical school. So it is roughly equivalent to 4 yrs undergrad and then 4yrs med school.

On another note, many people in India first obtain an undergrad degree before attending a post-graduate medical school (eg the J. Nehru post grad med institute in pondicherry).

Originally posted by driedcaribou


I hope you realize that the MD degree is NOT a graduate degree in North America. That is the myth that you think is fact.

You are right it's a professional doctorate degree ( such as a Juris doctorate)

Originally posted by driedcaribou


You can enter a MD program with only 3 years of University in North America... no prior degree necessary.

Use some common sense here. You don't write a thesis to get a MD. You don't do any research. How is that a true graduate degree?

Obviously you are misinformed. Good luck trying to get in to a US medical school without an undergraduate degree. Studying medicine (MD) or law (JD) requires that you become aquainted with a very broad field. Getting a Ph.D is very specialized, hence the thesis in a very specific topic.

Originally posted by driedcaribou


Even if I am wrong on that account, please explain why they have MD/Ph.D programs?

If you're already a 'doctor' why do they need the Ph.D designation?

Because a MD is not a Ph.D. It's not like getting 2 doctorates. The MD is not a doctorate at all.

End of story.

Because an is a doctorate in MEDICINE which allows you to practice medicine. A doctor who gets a Ph.D studies a more specialized field of science (eg micriobiology, immunology, biochemistry). These doctors usually choose a career as scientists.

 

[Hypochondriac]

MBA_doc,

You are naive. Keep in mind that IMGs constitute a large proportion of physician population in the US, and many of the researches, surgeries, drugs that you mentioned were in fact done/developed by IMGs who've migrated to US. Everytime you come across a cutting-edge research, make sure you look at the researchers' credentials! I bet you'll see lots of them who're British-trained, with degrees like MBChB or the research-based MD!!! (HAHAHAHA, not the cheesy American MD--4 years of studying and claim themselves to be doctorates, what a joke)

2nd point: you should read more books on the history of medicine. You think american medicine is the best? Keep in mind that the entire medical education was founded by British doctors, mostly those who graduated from the University of Edinburgh! LOL!!

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc

I still maintain that the US medical education system is the best in the world.

Remember when you thought that your dad was stronger than everyone else? You figured out he wasn't.

That was the first step in learning how big the world is.

There are college kids in Europe or Australia who think the exact opposite of you - they'll laugh smugly at how someone can be a doctor in 4 years. Are they wrong? Well, like you, they don't know the whole story.

Anyone who uncritically believes his own system is the best is usually wrong.

(They all are, cuz MY system is the best )

 

[sunni]

----------Is the whole point of this that IMGs from countries you designate can be IMGs, Australia, UK, Ireland, & Canada don't count. I have friends who want you to join my school's administration, see, he's from Australia, and she's from Canada (had to move here b/c her husband got a job here) but they both have to pay way more money to go to school than even the out of state kids because they're INTERNATIONAL students, ie not of US citizenship. What about those ppl who go to the Caribbean? Ross's program is only about 3 yrs long b/c you go fall, spring, and summer, this includes clinical rotations too. They are designated IMG, a lot of US med students go there for whatever reason, & they have some difficulty finding residencies placements in the US.

To get into med school you just need the bare minimum of sciences, ie the pre-reqs required by the school, generally:
1yr Intro Bio w/ Labs
1yr Inorganic Chem w/ Labs
1yr Organic Chem w/ labs
1yr Physics w/ Labs
1yr English
some have a Genetics requirement, some don't and most are now recommending biochem beforehand.
This isn't to say most major in biologies, & take things like P-chem and neurology, but it also doesn't preclude ppl from majoring in things like history, architcture, accounting, drama, fashion design, bioengineering, etc., etc.

-----------Or is it that b/c the program is only 6 yrs? In the US there are several programs combined BS/MD for those extremely serious in medicine. John's Hopkins has one even. So what exactly do you think of those ppl if they refer to themself as an MD?
This "apply to a specific post-high school program" is common in Europe too, it isn't just some thing from the Subcontinent & Middle East. These programs you bemoan are extremely competitive, my dad had to come here for school b/c his marks on the final tests weren't high enough for the engineering program he wanted, & when he's finished he went back, but then got transfered to the US.

----------So is there a problem w/ the traveling nurses? Most of them are Filipino or Indian. Are they less qualified b/c they went to a technical nursing college?

 

[1996]

This is an interesting discussion.

First of all, in terms of the degree MD vs MBBS. I think what qualifies you to practice medicine in any country is a valid medical license. Your degree alone doesn't suffice. Part of the requirement for licensing is a recognized medical degree, be it an MD from the US or a MBBS from other countries. Therefore, when you talk about qualification as a practicing physician in the US, you are talking about the US medical license, which is the same whether you're an USMG or an IMG. Your medical degree is something you received from a university after the completion of studies. It's name is set by the university you graduated from and unchangeable after conferred. Granted both an MD and an MBBS are doctors provided they have the appropriate licences, a person should not and cannot change the name of their degree as they wish. Does this mean one is more or less qualified than the other? No. It just means that they graduated from different medical schools who grant degrees with different names. Should an IMG with a MBBS change his/her degree into MD when they come to the US? No. Because an MBBS was what they got. This should, however, have no effect on their practice provided they are licensed. Likewise, an MD from the US should not and cannot change his/her degree to MBBS when going to other countries. This is like some US colleges grant PhDs while some grant DSc for graduate engineering studies. They are pretty much the same in terms of qualification and requirement, but a DSc cannot put a PhD behind his name as he wishes because that was not the degree conferred on him. Likewise for the PhD.

Second, regarding US medical education system vs foreign education system. I came from a foreign country and have been here since high school. My best friend came over at around the same time as me. Four years ago, we both applied to med school during our senior year in college. I got into a decent med school and stayed to pursue my MD. My friend got into a school that he didn't really want to go to, so he eventually went home to pursue his MBBS. The MBBS at home is 5 years long (cause high school is 1 year longer than most other countries). From what I see, US med schools progress a little faster than they do at home. That could be due to the fact that they have to spend time in the beginning taking courses that are equivalent to our pre-med requirements. Also, things are a lot more spread out. What we learn in two pre-clinical years here are spread out over five years for them. Also, "clinical rotations" are very different between here and there. While we rotate through all the core clerkships taking calls, admitting patients, and serving as the primary care-taker of the patients during their hospitalization in our third and forth years, their clinical rotations during their final years consist of mostly following the attending and the M.O.'s (equivalent to residents) on rounds as a large group and observing. They are encouraged to spend their afternoons in the wards, looking for interesting patients to talk to and practice H&P's on, and maybe presenting an interesting case during small groups. However, they do not participate in the actual care of the patients until they become a houseman (equivalent to interns). This is why as housemen, they actually still have to rotate through the different specialties, and they don't choose and apply for the specialties of their choice until towards the end of their houseman year. From what my best friends told me, as well as some of my other friends who went to med school at home, their houseman year (PGY-1) is actually more equivalent to our third and forth year of med school. Therefore, even though they get their degree 2 years earlier then USMGs (standard: 24 vs 26 yo), if you compare a US PGY-1 and a PGY-1 from my hometown, the US PGY-1 would be more advaced in their training, because they have already done what the PGY-1 from home is doing as a PGY-1. That being said, this difference becomes negligible after a year or two. It is almost like just a matter of doing clinical clerkship before or after you graduate. Eventually, everybody would be at the same level.

This post is getting way too long. However, I want to say that I find this discussion intriguing because I intend on going back home to practice after I finish med school (in 7 months, yeah!) and residency here in the US. I will forever be an MD, though, even though I will live in a world of MBBS. That is because, as I said, the degree is something granted to me when I graduate, and will be part of my identity forever.

 

[Johnny69]

Let't not forget that this clown came on here, claiming to be a an MD already, pursuing his Phd aswell. As it turns out he is neither.

Infact he is a disgruntled middle class, middle aged nobody.

He is so dilusional that he has actually managed to convince himself over the internet, that he is someone he is not.

This thread was purposeful flame bait, he said it himself. He is a typical Biggoted US citizen whom firmly subscribes to the idiology of "Bigger is better, and better is best! We are the US!"


Maybe one day he will stick his head out from his little safety box and realise there is a wider world out there with views that dont fit his own limited paradigm of thinking ::GASP!!!!::

 

[Spinola]

Saying that American medicine/medical training is the best in the world is just as vacuous as claiming that your beloved leader, G. W. Bush, is the best in the world. The truth is that it's almost impossible to compare medical systems and medical training in developed countries. If you want to look at research, then UK scientists have been awarded more Nobel prizes for "Medicine or Physiology". As regards major indices of health, the US does no better than any other developed country, but does manage to spend an inordinate amount of money on healthcare.

American parochialism is not confined to Medicine, but is endemic (case in point - no other country holds national games and styles them as "world series" events). The only people you impress are yourselves.

 

[luccas]

I think you absolutely overrate the md-degree. Of course there are some very good schools like Harvard , Stanford or Yale. But there are more than hundred other schools of which the majority only offers a medium or bad education. And there are a lot of ,for example, european schools like Heidelberg medical school, which are on the same level as the top five american schools and much better as a middle class US-school. I think there is absolutely no reason to go to a not top ten school in the USA, if you can go to a top european school. By the way I find it laughable that some people think they could get a place at a top european school if they were not even admitted at any US-school.

 

[Shinken]

Spinola, one correction: "The World" is actually the U.S. and some provinces of Canada (except in the NFL where "The World" is only the US).

I'm from Spain and have lived in the U.S. for 17 years. It never ceases to amuse me when people ask me "Is there pizza in Spain?" "Do you guys drive cars in Spain?" And my personal favorite "What do you guys do in Spain when you get sick?" (my favorite answer: "We go to our local Shaman and pay him with livestock")

I love this country (and I'm married to an American), but there sure can be some people around here that think anything outside of the U.S. is a jungle.

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by MBA_Doc
Purifyer
Do you think you're superior just because you're in medical school? Well - I pity you. And I think your comment about electricity just reflects the fact that YOU are a racist, not I.

No. I think I actually know what I'm talking about though, which seperates me from you. This is what makes you a clown my friend.

The comments about electricity were due to your comment

Most of the respondees have been Australians and Irish. Those are not the countries I think of when I think of IMG's in this country.

Lol. Your view of the world is so narrow and clouded that I find it scary. Do you know why I find it scary? That someone who is literate and even holds a unveristy degree - god forbid.. has such little idea about the world - But still thinks he knows enough to start a thread about how the MD is superior to degrees four times as old. lol.

 

[Spinola]

Originally posted by Shinken
Spinola, one correction: "The World" is actually the U.S. and some provinces of Canada (except in the NFL where "The World" is only the US).

I am grateful for this correction ; thank you for letting me know.

I would also add that there are a significant number of medical schools in the UK and Australia which offer 4-year medical degrees to graduates. The degrees are "graduate level", and yet students still read for the MB BS/MB BCh degree. The obvious question is why not change it to "MD" seeing as it is at the same "level" as the American system? There are two reasons - a) the Universities' Acts will already stipulate that the MD degree is a research degree that is only open to experienced medical practitioners and b) they recognise that any basic medical degree (including the US "MD") is merely an undergraduate level degree, even if it is taken by a graduate student. The reason why America uniformly grants the "MD" is because Flexner recommended basing the medical education system on that of Germany, where the MD degree was conferred by coursework.

 

[The Pill Counter]

I love some of the signs out in Brisbane for the Rugby World Cup - "Hey US, welcome to a real world series!" - that's pretty funny.

But since I'm from Toronto and we won the MLB championship twice in the nineties, I don't mind calling it the World Series anymore!

And the last word: a primary medical qualification is a primary medical qualification is a primary medical qualification is a...

 

[driedcaribou]

For the hundreth time: A MD degree is an undergraduate level degree in North America. A fact you cannot refute and do not reply to because you are wrong and are unwilling to admit it.

Originally posted by MBA_Doc
None of what anyone has said has made the slightest impression on me - because your arguments are emotional and rhetorical.

You didn't reply to any posts which didn't have emotional or rhetorical points.

You wrote earlier

"If you can't argue logically in your replies and not resort to emotional outbursts, then I will not dignify your reply with a response."

Yet you replied to them and not the others.

There is no point in me adding my 2 cents into this anymore because you obviously do not know how to argue at all.

I expected more maturity and more responses with more depth from someone in his mid-30s.

This is not a personal attack. This is an expression of disappointment because it was not worth anyone's time replying to your statements. You refused to address specific points you felt were weak nor will you admit weaknesses in your argument.

I don't see how anyone can take you seriously after this topic because you don't have the patience to read what others wrote so why do you deserve our patience to read whatever you write from now on?

Your comments about the US having the best surgeries, drugs available and best discoveries is really really funny.

Excellent research doesn't entail good teaching at a school. In fact, researchers may come from another institution... often outside of the country.
Best surgeries... you really really need to read up on medical education.
Best drugs available? Well of course, the drug industry is so big in the US... you fail to realize that US doctors are pill happy- in part because they need to cover themselves in case of malpractice... better to give more than less is their philosophy.

 

[luccas]

@ mba_doc
Such a nonsense. The US-medical education system the best in the world. There are perhaps five to ten top schools where I would agree that they are on the top of all medical schools worldwide. But there are a some of german or english schools that are equal to the top five US-schools and much better than ninety five percent of all US-schools. I do not really believe that anybody would be so crazy to go to a middle class US-school if he could also get to Cambridge, Heidelberg oder Munich. If you have the chance to go to one of these schools you would perhaps prefer go to Harvard or Stanford, but not to a middle class US-school.
By the way it would interest me, if you mba_doc, go to a top-ten school or only to a middle class school.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by driedcaribou
For the hundreth time: A MD degree is an undergraduate level degree in North America. A fact you cannot refute and do not reply to because you are wrong and are unwilling to admit it.

Interestingly, the MD degree is also the highest level medical degree that an American doctor can get. American MD's who decide to pursue research after they graduate (that would be 99% of academic physicians) will always stay an MD, and they would be no different from MD's from anywhere in the world since the main difference between MDs and MBBS in other countries is the research. In fact, many top med schools in the US now have a thesis requirement, and Duke, specifically, has a year of full-time research built-in to their curriculum.

In addition, getting into med school through the standard route in most other countries involves scoring above a certain average on public exams. Admission to US med schools is a little more subjective, and accomplishments in things such as research is a significant component. Therefore, a large majority of pre-meds already have very significant research experience by the time they apply to med school. Many even have publications. Continued research is more emphasized in the US med schools than other countries, from my observation (I might be slightly biased on this since I attend a very heavily research-oriented med school). But I think ON AVERAGE, American pre-meds and med students usually have more research experience compared to students from other countries. (This is not to say they will be better doctors though)

However, I agree, other than those from top med schools with research requirements and those going into academic medicine or doing research, any good ol' US community MD who have no significant research experience in the past should be no different from any MBBS from other countries.

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996

In addition, getting into med school through the standard route in most other countries involves scoring above a certain average on public exams. Admission to US med schools is a little more subjective, and accomplishments in things such as research is a significant component. Therefore, a large majority of pre-meds already have very significant research experience by the time they apply to med school. Many even have publications.

Good point. But you're really comparing apples and oranges... how many papers had you published in Lancet in your final year of high school?

Continued research is more emphasized in the US med schools than other countries, from my observation (I might be slightly biased on this since I attend a very heavily research-oriented med school). But I think ON AVERAGE, American pre-meds and med students usually have more research experience compared to students from other countries. (This is not to say they will be better doctors though)

Research is quite heavily encouraged at my institution, and I believe most others. From 2006 it will be mandatory to spend half a year on research, and if we want to (and a large percent do) we can spend an additional year doing research and publishing a thesis at the end of it (during that time the school pays our school fees [and gives a living allowance -I think]). We are also encouraged to do those 'research summerships'.

_IF_ we wish to pursue a PhD at the end of this, we can apply for scholarships (and there are alot of them - I'm not sure how many, there are 2 classes of scholarship, the first is limited to 10 applicants a year (from my university), the second isn't specified how many), these pay course costs, $20k-25k living allowance and any additional costs.

Anyway, my point isn't to brag. Merely that I think you don't fully realise the amount of research that goes on outside of the US. In fact you'd be surprised how many basic facts of medical science were 'discovered' at my med school (mostly endocrine related.. and I've forgotten too, I just remember the professor saying this thyroid hormone, that insulin like growth factor etc

I don't believe this is in any way too different from any british/australian school, I think you underestimate the research experience of grads from these countries. Saying that of course, we lack any research you did in undergrad.. but how important is that?

 

[davidw11]

For the hundreth time: A MD degree is an undergraduate level degree in North America. A fact you cannot refute and do not reply to because you are wrong and are unwilling to admit it.

This upsets me, unless maybe I'm reading your quote wrong. Are you saying that an MD degree is nothing "special", and is equal to an undergraduate degree? I think I read before from a previous quote of yours is that it's not a graduate degree.

First, according to the American Hertiage Dictionary(and just about every other one), undergraduate student means :

"A college or university student who has not yet received a bachelor's or similar degree. "

So, an undergraduate degree is someone who has received a bachelor's or similar degree. Obviously there is no way you can call a MD degree equal to a bachelors. It's a million times better. First, the United States ranks a MD Doctor the highest in terms of "status". They are higher ranked than Ph.D holders. Professors are ranked higher then Ph.D holders also, since every professor has a Ph.D, while not all Ph.D holders are professors.

Also, what makes you think it's not a graduate degree? Do you know how long it takes to get a graduate degree in say Biology? 2yrs. Yes, 2yrs!!! So after getting a BA or BS in something, you go on for 2 more years to get your Masters degree.

Yet to become a doctor, it requires going on 4 yrs after getting a BA or BS, and then AT LEAST 4 more years until you can even begin to practice privately. So to get a MD degree, it takes 8 years(4yrs of very intensive med school). To get a Masters(graduate degree), it takes 6yrs (of nowhere near as intensive studies).


So I see a flaw in your logic.

 

[Spinola]

Originally posted by davidw11
This upsets me, unless maybe I'm reading your quote wrong. Are you saying that an MD degree is nothing "special", and is equal to an undergraduate degree? I think I read before from a previous quote of yours is that it's not a graduate degree.

First, according to the American Hertiage Dictionary(and just about every other one), undergraduate student means :

"A college or university student who has not yet received a bachelor's or similar degree. "

So, an undergraduate degree is someone who has received a bachelor's or similar degree. Obviously there is no way you can call a MD degree equal to a bachelors. It's a million times better. First, the United States ranks a MD Doctor the highest in terms of "status". They are higher ranked than Ph.D holders. Professors are ranked higher then Ph.D holders also, since every professor has a Ph.D, while not all Ph.D holders are professors.

Also, what makes you think it's not a graduate degree? Do you know how long it takes to get a graduate degree in say Biology? 2yrs. Yes, 2yrs!!! So after getting a BA or BS in something, you go on for 2 more years to get your Masters degree.

Yet to become a doctor, it requires going on 4 yrs after getting a BA or BS, and then AT LEAST 4 more years until you can even begin to practice privately. So to get a MD degree, it takes 8 years(4yrs of very intensive med school). To get a Masters(graduate degree), it takes 6yrs (of nowhere near as intensive studies).


So I see a flaw in your logic.

Despite your careless use of the English language, I can understand what you're trying to say. First of all, you must recognise that it is possible for a person who holds an undergraduate level degree to complete another such degree. For example, someone may obtain a BA in psychology and later study for a BA in philosophy. Whilst studying for the latter, this person will be a graduate studying for an undergraduate degree. Similarly, graduates studying for the MD degree in the US are studying for an undergraduate level degree - i.e. the chief components of the course are taught.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say "the USA ranks....". Do you mean that those in possession of the MD degree attract greater kudos than those who hold the PhD? Your final two paragraphs are ludicrous. Why not take this argument to its reductio ad absurdum: would someone who gains a BA in every subject offered at a University have gained a graduate degree merely because they've spent more than 50 years in tertiary education?

(I would also add that Masters degrees by coursework are also effectively undergraduate level degrees.)

 

[davidw11]

Despite your careless use of the English language,

Careless use? I merely throw stuff together, I'm posting this to a forum, not writing up an English report. I was kind enough not to write everything in abbreviations and lower case. I'm a bad speller too...no spell checker on this forums. How do we know how to spell stuff?

When I say ranks, I'm not sure exactly who gives those out. There's an agency that takes all professions, and puts them in a rank. Just like Computer Science is pretty darn high up on the list.

would someone who gains a BA in every subject offered at a University have gained a graduate degree merely because they've spent more than 50 years in tertiary education?

Ahh...I think I may be seeing what's confusing me. I'm thinking of something that majors in say Biochemistry getting their MD degree. You would be right if that person had majored in say art, where they had no medical science courses.

But even still, it's called a professional degree. I would rather have that any day compared to a "graduate" degree. And if you want to go on that arguement, they cram a ton of stuff into med school whereas they don't do that in undergraduate school. You are learning more in those 4 years then if you spent 8yrs getting a masters in medicine.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996


In addition, getting into med school through the standard route in most other countries involves scoring above a certain average on public exams. Admission to US med schools is a little more subjective, and accomplishments in things such as research is a significant component. Therefore, a large majority of pre-meds already have very significant research experience by the time they apply to med school. Many even have publications. Continued research is more emphasized in the US med schools than other countries, from my observation (I might be slightly biased on this since I attend a very heavily research-oriented med school). But I think ON AVERAGE, American pre-meds and med students usually have more research experience compared to students from other countries. (This is not to say they will be better doctors though)

Hahahahah!! that's good. At our school we also have a 6 month compulsory research requirement...but we're only an MBBS...so maybe the research isn't that sternous.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by davidw11
This upsets me, unless maybe I'm reading your quote wrong. Are you saying that an MD degree is nothing "special", and is equal to an undergraduate degree? I think I read before from a previous quote of yours is that it's not a graduate degree.

First, according to the American Hertiage Dictionary(and just about every other one), undergraduate student means :

"A college or university student who has not yet received a bachelor's or similar degree. "

So, an undergraduate degree is someone who has received a bachelor's or similar degree. Obviously there is no way you can call a MD degree equal to a bachelors. It's a million times better. First, the United States ranks a MD Doctor the highest in terms of "status". They are higher ranked than Ph.D holders. Professors are ranked higher then Ph.D holders also, since every professor has a Ph.D, while not all Ph.D holders are professors.

Also, what makes you think it's not a graduate degree? Do you know how long it takes to get a graduate degree in say Biology? 2yrs. Yes, 2yrs!!! So after getting a BA or BS in something, you go on for 2 more years to get your Masters degree.

Yet to become a doctor, it requires going on 4 yrs after getting a BA or BS, and then AT LEAST 4 more years until you can even begin to practice privately. So to get a MD degree, it takes 8 years(4yrs of very intensive med school). To get a Masters(graduate degree), it takes 6yrs (of nowhere near as intensive studies).


So I see a flaw in your logic.

Actually I see a flaw in your logic. If an MD is so much better than an MBBS how come BY LAW we can change the title?? How come we are treated in the same respect as an MD holder if we were to practice in countries where the MD is the common degree?

You also can get into an MD BY LAW after only 2 years of study...though it's not common it is possible. The accerated program that I got accepted into was 6 years - 2 years in basic sciences where you had to maintain a B average and then 4 years of med school....and at the end of it I would only have an MD...which is the same as an MBBS then (except that with the MBBS we would do two years of basic medical science..not plant biology and all of that kind of junk...so in that sense the MBBS is more medically oriented)

 

[davidw11]

If an MD is so much better than an MBBS how come BY LAW we can change the title??

When did I say that? I'm trying to put down the notion that a MD degree is equal to a 4yr BA degree. It's obviously not, and shouldn't be called an undergraduate degree. It's a Professional degree, better then a graduate degree even.

 

[redshifteffect]

Obviously there is no way you can call a MD degree equal to a bachelors. It's a million times better

Jeez buddy can't you even remember what you wrote???

According to you an MD is better than a bachelors degree, the MBBS by convention is a bachelors degree therefore you are implying that the MD is better than the MBBS.