MD/MBA as a means to Entrepreneurship

[Nexus777]

Any thoughts on this? What schools are good to get synergistic experience in translating basic science research to the clinical bedside by building companies around these products?

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[Law2Doc]

Any thoughts on this? What schools are good to get synergistic experience in translating basic science research to the clinical bedside by building companies around these products?

MBA is a waste if you actually are looking to develop initial business skills. It is not a good "how to" degree. It is a much more useful of an add on to existing business skills -- which is why most schools actually require you to have worked for a few years before applying. The best known entrepreneurs did not learn to be such in an MBA program.

 

[Nexus777]

MBA is a waste if you actually are looking to develop initial business skills. It is not a good "how to" degree. It is a much more useful of an add on to existing business skills -- which is why most schools actually require you to have worked for a few years before applying. The best known entrepreneurs did not learn to be such in an MBA program.

Without the MBA, how will one be able to communicate with other MBAs when starting a company. So much time is spent trying to address the different needs - one person talking business, another technical, another medical. if each person doesn't understand where the other is coming from, then so much time is wasted in each person "explaining" why their section is important to the others. However, if one person understands each section, he can better facilitate the communication and streamline the growth of the company better. At least, that is how I feel, but I would like to get other opinions about this. It has been a thought in my mind that it is easier for someone to lead other MBAs / engineers / doctors if that person really understands where each of those people are coming from since he has studied what they have studied, and can at least understand what to look for. Without the knowledge, how else can I truly appreciate what the MBA needs to market this company and adequately appropriate those limited startup resources to him for that. I already have the technical and soon the medical background - I feel like I solely lack the business background. I truly believe in the networking aspect of B-school, which is why I would want to stretch the time over 3 years. What do you think?

 

[Law2Doc]

Without the MBA, how will one be able to communicate with other MBAs when starting a company. So much time is spent trying to address the different needs - one person talking business, another technical, another medical. if each person doesn't understand where the other is coming from, then so much time is wasted in each person "explaining" why their section is important to the others. However, if one person understands each section, he can better facilitate the communication and streamline the growth of the company better. At least, that is how I feel, but I would like to get other opinions about this. It has been a thought in my mind that it is easier for someone to lead other MBAs / engineers / doctors if that person really understands where each of those people are coming from since he has studied what they have studied, and can at least understand what to look for. Without the knowledge, how else can I truly appreciate what the MBA needs to market this company and adequately appropriate those limited startup resources to him for that. I already have the technical and soon the medical background - I feel like I solely lack the business background. I truly believe in the networking aspect of B-school, which is why I would want to stretch the time over 3 years. What do you think?

I think you are misunderstanding the MBA degree. It is not like medicine or engineering in that it doesn't necessarilly prepare you for a specific career. It is not a professional school and thus it is not a basic business education as much as an enhancement degree. You do not become a business afficionado by going to business school, but can certainly hone your existing skills there. You can concentrate on management, marketing, finance, accounting, or economics, and so on, but not all, and you would thus have very little common language with other MBAs -- it won't serve to facilitate communication as you think.
And you will totally lose all of the networking benefits of business school if you don't have the free time to hang out outside of classes with your classmates, and you will almost certainly be unable do if you are trying to do both MBA and med school at the same time. Business school is a very social form of education, but only if you make yourself available to those opportunities. I hope some of the others chime in, but I think your idea of what business school is all about are not quite accurate. Good luck.

 

[bluejay68]

I think you are misunderstanding the MBA degree. It is not like medicine or engineering in that it doesn't necessarilly prepare you for a specific career. It is not a professional school and thus it is not a basic business education as much as an enhancement degree. You do not become a business afficionado by going to business school, but can certainly hone your existing skills there. You can concentrate on management, marketing, finance, accounting, or economics, and so on, but not all, and you would thus have very little common language with other MBAs -- it won't serve to facilitate communication as you think.
And you will totally lose all of the networking benefits of business school if you don't have the free time to hang out outside of classes with your classmates, and you will almost certainly be unable do if you are trying to do both MBA and med school at the same time. Business school is a very social form of education, but only if you make yourself available to those opportunities. I hope some of the others chime in, but I think your idea of what business school is all about are not quite accurate. Good luck.

If all you want from B-school is an enhanced vocabulary and some general business savvy, then there are a lot of books you can read on your own that are a lot cheaper and less time consuming than an MBA.

I also totally agree with Law2Doc in that one of the most valuable aspects of business school is the network you develop, and this is largely done outside of the classroom. If you are just taking business school classes in addition to a full med school curriculum, you are missing a great deal of the value of an MBA.

I don't want to discourage you from following your interests and taking extra classes on the side - this is very admirable and will likely help you some day down the road. Just don't mistake the value that you would get from such a courseload with the value that one may get from dedicating 2 full years to an MBA. Also, many argue that an MBA is NOT a necessary degree in the business world (I would argue that MOST entrepreneurs do NOT have an MBA). Yes, there are certain employers who ONLY hire MBA's (higher-level jobs with management consultants, bankers, etc; but your MD will open a lot of these same doors if you are so inclined). Employers are impressed with business accomplishments, and B-school in itself is not something that automatically takes you places (although a degree from HBS, Wharton, Stanford, Sloan, etc will often get people to listen to you).

As Law2Doc said, this is a degree best obtained after working in the business world for several years, when you are ready to make the next step in your career and want to develop your management and leadership skills. These "soft" skills are the truly invaluable tools that great schools develop in their students; I've found that most of the other coursework (accounting, managerial economics, strategy) is more of a commodity that could be learned in many different formats. Not everyone has the foundation to take full advantage of the leadership development offered in B-school, but it seems like med students who want to combine degrees get a "pass" from the admissions committee, opening up the opportunity to get the MBA earlier in their career than they would normally. This is part of the argument against getting the combined degree at the outset of your career, versus waiting 5+ years as a clinician and then going back to school.

For me, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to get an MBA from a top program, with nearly 2 dedicated years of business school (thus getting the network/social experience), but only 5 years of total time in grad school. I am not really using the MBA as an intern right now, which is frustrating, but I'll start taking on relevant projects next year.

 

[Nexus777]

If all you want from B-school is an enhanced vocabulary and some general business savvy, then there are a lot of books you can read on your own that are a lot cheaper and less time consuming than an MBA.

I also totally agree with Law2Doc in that one of the most valuable aspects of business school is the network you develop, and this is largely done outside of the classroom. If you are just taking business school classes in addition to a full med school curriculum, you are missing a great deal of the value of an MBA.

I don't want to discourage you from following your interests and taking extra classes on the side - this is very admirable and will likely help you some day down the road. Just don't mistake the value that you would get from such a courseload with the value that one may get from dedicating 2 full years to an MBA. Also, many argue that an MBA is NOT a necessary degree in the business world (I would argue that MOST entrepreneurs do NOT have an MBA). Yes, there are certain employers who ONLY hire MBA's (higher-level jobs with management consultants, bankers, etc; but your MD will open a lot of these same doors if you are so inclined). Employers are impressed with business accomplishments, and B-school in itself is not something that automatically takes you places (although a degree from HBS, Wharton, Stanford, Sloan, etc will often get people to listen to you).

As Law2Doc said, this is a degree best obtained after working in the business world for several years, when you are ready to make the next step in your career and want to develop your management and leadership skills. These "soft" skills are the truly invaluable tools that great schools develop in their students; I've found that most of the other coursework (accounting, managerial economics, strategy) is more of a commodity that could be learned in many different formats. Not everyone has the foundation to take full advantage of the leadership development offered in B-school, but it seems like med students who want to combine degrees get a "pass" from the admissions committee, opening up the opportunity to get the MBA earlier in their career than they would normally. This is part of the argument against getting the combined degree at the outset of your career, versus waiting 5+ years as a clinician and then going back to school.

For me, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to get an MBA from a top program, with nearly 2 dedicated years of business school (thus getting the network/social experience), but only 5 years of total time in grad school. I am not really using the MBA as an intern right now, which is frustrating, but I'll start taking on relevant projects next year.

What were the other 3 years for (5 total years of grad school)? I would take an extra year in addition to the med school, but would like to knock everything out in 5 years. What is the additional value of an extra full year? Are you both against MD/MBAs, 5 year programs, at top 10 schools? Why would such schools even make such programs if they didn't believe in them? They don't need the money, nor students to fill up their slots.

 

[Law2Doc]

What is the additional value of an extra full year? Are you both against MD/MBAs, 5 year programs, at top 10 schools? Why would such schools even make such programs if they didn't believe in them? They don't need the money, nor students to fill up their slots.

I'm not per se "against" an established 5 year program which doesn't force you to double-book MBA courses on top of the MD ones (I don't think many joint degree schools do this). But I definitely think you miss out on a lot of the value of the MBA program if you do it in one year (or one year plus a summer), instead of the traditional two. The biggest thing that gets sacrificed is a lot of the networking time you seek. And coming from a non-business field, I'm not sure it's wisest to minimize the amount of exposure to business education if you want the MBA to be of any value. But I would suggest that before you subject yourself to an MD/MBA program you clarify for yourself what it is you expect to do with the MBA, what is your target job, and why you need the MBA -- some of your reasoning in these threads suggests that reading a good basic book on running a business or business management might suffice. I certainly wouldn't go down that track just to be an entrepreneur. And I wouldn't focus on why a school would offer a joint degree if they didn't believe in them -- many schools offer joint JD/MD degrees and there are even fewer established career paths for that route (if any). They offer whatever degrees people are interested in getting, and it is up to you to see if you can make it work.
Good luck.

 

[Nexus777]

I'm not per se "against" an established 5 year program which doesn't force you to double-book MBA courses on top of the MD ones (I don't think many joint degree schools do this). But I definitely think you miss out on a lot of the value of the MBA program if you do it in one year (or one year plus a summer), instead of the traditional two. The biggest thing that gets sacrificed is a lot of the networking time. I would suggest that before you subject yourself to an MD/MBA program you clarify for yourself what it is you expect to do with the MBA, what is your target job, and why you need the MBA -- some of your reasoning in these threads suggests that reading a good basic book on running a business or business management might suffice. I certainly wouldn't go down that track just to be an entrepreneur. But to each his own. Good luck.

What is the purpose of the entrepreneurial track then at these B-schools?

 

[Law2Doc]

What is the purpose of the entrepreneurial track then at these B-schools?

It is what you make of it. Schools offer it because people want it. They don't care that you don't really need it, or maybe can't even use it. You are looking for too much logic in some of these paths.

(See my edit on my prior post about the JD/MD offerings as an example of questionable dual degree offerings ).

 

[Nexus777]

I'm not per se "against" an established 5 year program which doesn't force you to double-book MBA courses on top of the MD ones (I don't think many joint degree schools do this). But I definitely think you miss out on a lot of the value of the MBA program if you do it in one year (or one year plus a summer), instead of the traditional two. The biggest thing that gets sacrificed is a lot of the networking time. I would suggest that before you subject yourself to an MD/MBA program you clarify for yourself what it is you expect to do with the MBA, what is your target job, and why you need the MBA -- some of your reasoning in these threads suggests that reading a good basic book on running a business or business management might suffice. I certainly wouldn't go down that track just to be an entrepreneur. But to each his own. Good luck.

What is the purpose of the entrepreneurial track then at these B-schools? Also, most of the top B/medical schools who offer the MD/MBA do this in 5 years. I realize that it is different than an MD and later an MBA. It is a dual degree because of timing in one's career, but as a result, may result in a different career outlook altogether. My goal here is actually to be an academic scientist, but have the language and the tools to understand what is needed to move all the great technologies in top 10 universities out to the public in a faster fashion. The only hindrance I've seen is how much communication is made between new MBAs looking to start ventures and the phsyicians or scientists because neither understands the other, nor can converse in each other's language. My goal is more to understand where the MBA is coming from rather than take on all his responsibilities, and instead serve as the lubricant between the MBA and the technology/medical people, just as, in theory, the MD/PhD is not both a PhD and MD, but rather can serve as a lubricant between MDs and PhDs and transition bench top work to the bedside. I just wish to translate bench top work to one person's beside to later thousands or millions of bedsides, and I wish to do this in the most effective manner possible in my lifetime.

 

[Law2Doc]

What is the purpose of the entrepreneurial track then at these B-schools? Also, most of the top B/medical schools who offer the MD/MBA do this in 5 years. I realize that it is different than an MD and later an MBA. It is a dual degree because of timing in one's career, but as a result, may result in a different career outlook altogether. My goal here is actually to be an academic scientist, but have the language and the tools to understand what is needed to move all the great technologies in top 10 universities out to the public in a faster fashion. The only hindrance I've seen is how much communication is made between new MBAs looking to start ventures and the phsyicians or scientists because neither understands the other, nor can converse in each other's language. My goal is more to understand where the MBA is coming from rather than take on all his responsibilities, and instead serve as the lubricant between the MBA and the technology/medical people, just as, in theory, the MD/PhD is not both a PhD and MD, but rather can serve as a lubricant between MDs and PhDs and transition bench top work to the bedside. I just wish to translate bench top work to one person's beside to later thousands or millions of bedsides, and I wish to do this in the most effective manner possible in my lifetime.

I hear you and I get what you are saying. I would suggest buying a few books and start reading the WS Journal (aka the business world bible) regularly. The MBA won't be the "lubricant" you seek, and is not a cost effective approach.

 

[bluejay68]

In regard to the 5-year combined MD/MBA programs, I think they can be a great experience for the right people. I did mine at Penn, where my MBA counted as my required research project, so I had an additional entire semester to spend in B-school (Penn only does 1.5 years of preclinical coursework). So my experience at Wharton was 1.5 semesters plus a summer internship, with zero med school responsibilities. I basically missed out on taking 2 or 3 electives that some of my classmates took in their last semester of B-school. I also think Duke's curriculum would also allow for more time away from medicine during your 5 years, since they only do one year of preclinical coursework. I'm not saying that the other programs wouldn't also be great experiences, but it was nice to spend as much time as I did dedicated just to B-school.

I also completely see your point that there is a need for people to bridge between the academic medical community and private business ventures; I just think you need to define this role a little more clearly and then decide if the time and money involved in getting the MBA are clearly required to do it. Do you want to be an academic attending with research interests and try to spin these off into businesses? Do you want to help other research scientists commercialze their work? Most major universities have extensive legal red tape (i.e., they own all or at least a big part of anything someone "discovers" using thier facitilies), as well as a business development office that works to license/sell/develop patents and other commercially viable intellectual property. Find out who is involved in this and see if what they do intersts you. What is their background/education/experience?

I just think it's not quite as simple as a researcher who has some amazing discovery, but has no idea what to do with it and an entrepreneur with great business skills but no new ideas for a product can't find eachother or when they do, can't understand eachother because they come from such different backgrounds, and they are waiting for an MD/MBA to swoop in and save the day. Maybe this happens more than I realize, however, I just want to emphasize that there is no doubt that having a more broad understanding of how the business world works and how to start a business are great skills to have. Before you set out to get the combined degree, try to research as much as you can the type of job you plan on having (this can be difficult, but do your best), and really try to define the skill set and experience required to excel in that role. If you can make a compelling argument that an MBA (not just business savvy) is a must, then go for it and never look back.

 

[Nexus777]

In regard to the 5-year combined MD/MBA programs, I think they can be a great experience for the right people. I did mine at Penn, where my MBA counted as my required research project, so I had an additional entire semester to spend in B-school (Penn only does 1.5 years of preclinical coursework). So my experience at Wharton was 1.5 semesters plus a summer internship, with zero med school responsibilities. I basically missed out on taking 2 or 3 electives that some of my classmates took in their last semester of B-school. I also think Duke's curriculum would also allow for more time away from medicine during your 5 years, since they only do one year of preclinical coursework. I'm not saying that the other programs wouldn't also be great experiences, but it was nice to spend as much time as I did dedicated just to B-school.

I also completely see your point that there is a need for people to bridge between the academic medical community and private business ventures; I just think you need to define this role a little more clearly and then decide if the time and money involved in getting the MBA are clearly required to do it. Do you want to be an academic attending with research interests and try to spin these off into businesses? Do you want to help other research scientists commercialze their work? Most major universities have extensive legal red tape (i.e., they own all or at least a big part of anything someone "discovers" using thier facitilies), as well as a business development office that works to license/sell/develop patents and other commercially viable intellectual property. Find out who is involved in this and see if what they do intersts you. What is their background/education/experience?

I just think it's not quite as simple as a researcher who has some amazing discovery, but has no idea what to do with it and an entrepreneur with great business skills but no new ideas for a product can't find eachother or when they do, can't understand eachother because they come from such different backgrounds, and they are waiting for an MD/MBA to swoop in and save the day. Maybe this happens more than I realize, however, I just want to emphasize that there is no doubt that having a more broad understanding of how the business world works and how to start a business are great skills to have. Before you set out to get the combined degree, try to research as much as you can the type of job you plan on having (this can be difficult, but do your best), and really try to define the skill set and experience required to excel in that role. If you can make a compelling argument that an MBA (not just business savvy) is a must, then go for it and never look back.

It's cool that you have the joint degree. What was your reason for the joint degree? How do you hope to use it in your future?

 

[bluejay68]

It's cool that you have the joint degree. What was your reason for the joint degree? How do you hope to use it in your future?

My plan right now is to complete a residency in Emergency Medicine and develop a career in provider management; my medium-term goal would be to work part-time as an EM attending and run a piece of the hospital (i.e., VP of whatever, chairman) and my long-term goal would be to run a hospital/health system full time. I also have interests in VC, consulting and other business-related side tracks, so we'll see how closely I follow the plan as time goes on....

 

[amoly22]

Bluejay, I was wondering what attracts you specifically to provider management. It seems like hospitals are increasingly entering murky waters as the industry becomes more competitive and, if for-profit, more difficult decisions have to be made to please shareholders (such as funding for unprofitable services, charity work, etc.). It also seems like there is a constant tug between providers and payers in what often amounts to a zero-sum game. Also, as a side note, I was wondering whether most physician owned specialty hospitals are run by MD/MBAs.

 

[periodic]

Bluejay, I was wondering what attracts you specifically to provider management. It seems like hospitals are increasingly entering murky waters as the industry becomes more competitive and, if for-profit, more difficult decisions have to be made to please shareholders (such as funding for unprofitable services, charity work, etc.). It also seems like there is a constant tug between providers and payers in what often amounts to a zero-sum game. Also, as a side note, I was wondering whether most physician owned specialty hospitals are run by MD/MBAs.

Well, I can address the last part of your post. As far as I know, there's no special link between physician-owned specialty hospitals and management by MD/MBAs. Those hospitals are usually started by a group of physicians looking to gain more autonomy in providing cardiac or orthopedic surgical services, and maybe some profit from ownership in the long run. A lot of them, the cardiac care ones at least, have been joint ventures between physicians and a for-profit called MedCath, or physicians and hospitals in the area (sometimes the very hospitals the physicians leave, since the hospital ends up going into the venture to retain some part of the business the physicians are leaving with).

Some government studies suggest that these hospitals do a little better financially (slightly higher profit margins). They also probably tend to select for healthier patients, since these hospitals often do not have the full range of services as a general hospital -- by choice, of course. This may increase profit because there are fewer very sick patients going there and experiencing complications from procedures. But, overall it's usually a group of physicians owning less than a majority stake in the overall hospital, with the partner (hospital or MedCath) owning 51% or more. Each physician probably ends up with a small share (a few pct ownership at most), which does not translate into the bling. From what I've seen, they're probably just docs looking to run their own show.

Long story short, I haven't seen a specific answer to your question, but I can't see why there would be much of a link. MD MBAs are a relatively new phenomenon, and it's not like an MBA is a requisite to start a business venture. Apparently all it takes is being fed up enough with hospital bureacracy.

 

[bluejay68]

Bluejay, I was wondering what attracts you specifically to provider management. It seems like hospitals are increasingly entering murky waters as the industry becomes more competitive and, if for-profit, more difficult decisions have to be made to please shareholders (such as funding for unprofitable services, charity work, etc.). It also seems like there is a constant tug between providers and payers in what often amounts to a zero-sum game. Also, as a side note, I was wondering whether most physician owned specialty hospitals are run by MD/MBAs.

Provider management is the most rational way for me to leverage my business/management interests while still seeing patients. I'm in EM, so there will be lots of clinical flexibility. I just like seeing patients too much to walk away from that part of my career in the near term. However, I do worry that the challenges that exist in the provider world (most notably financial constraints, inexperience and shortsightedness) will hamper my ability make significant and lasting changes as my career progresses. Right now I am keeping an open mind (the hospitals where I am training are making money and in the process of big expansions - MGH and BWH); seems like there are some good opportunities out there if you know the right people and can get someone to take a chance on you early in your career. I think there is still a lot of room for improvement from a systems level of how we deliver health care, and my ultimate goal is to be a great manager and leader for a large provider. I think we still have a long way to go to improve patient safety and quality of care, in addition to becoming more efficient in delivering that care. As we spend more and more on health care every year, the pressures to reduce costs will continue to escalate, and those providers that can deliver high quality care at a low cost are going to set the standard and flourish, and I want to be a part of that.

All this being said, the other really nice thing about the Wharton MBA is that I can pull the plug at any time and go work for a management consultant or a host of other non-providers. This gives me a little more freedom to explore my interests in provider management without worrying about being trapped in a track that I can't escape down the road. I did not get the MBA to simply have an exit strategy, since I fully intend to use it as a physician-executive with my current career plans; but regardless, it still helps me sleep a little better knowing that I have so many options.