MCAT: 29Q, 3.78 GPA, 2nd Year, Canadian

[KJEStudios]

Hi there,

I'm a Canadian student studying at McGill university in Montreal, Canada. I just started third year and I am do the whole non-conventional approach to medicine (meaning my degree is actually in music!). I just got my MCAT score today and am torn as to whether I should write it again.

I think I will probably apply this year..if you are familiar with the Canadian medical scene, I will be applying to most of the schools that consider 2nd year students (Ottawa, Queens, Dalhousie, McMaster, Toronto, & Calgary). What do you think my chances are this year? How about next year if I don't rewrite the MCAT?

I figure that if I have sterling references and a pretty decent GPA they can outweigh my mediocre MCAT score...

btw: 10 BS, 10 PS, 9 VR, Q WS

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[ShoTyme]

0

 

[mlw03]

you're not going to be a definitive answer here, or on any internet forum. your numbers are respectable. we were all in your shoes a few years ago and it'd be nice if i could say, "yes, you will certainly get in." but that'd just be my guess. so apply, see how it goes, and deal with things as they happen.

 

[mashmetoo]

Assuming you are a resident of Quebec, and only Quebec, your chances outside of Quebec are slim to none.

 

[KJEStudios]

I'm from Ottawa, Ontario.

 

[mashmetoo]

I'm from Ottawa, Ontario.

That makes it even worse, if you had Quebec residence, then you are considered in-province for Quebec, giving you access to Mcgill at least. If you only have Ontario residence, you basically get the shaft (like all Ontarian pre-meds), no special considerations for any of the Ontario med schools (unless you actually lived in Northern Ontario, or is from the swomen area). A 29 MCAT basically means your chances for med school in Canada is shot assuming you only have Ontario residency... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[mlw03]

That makes it even worse, if you had Quebec residence, then you are considered in-province for Quebec, giving you access to Mcgill at least. If you only have Ontario residence, you basically get the shaft (like all Ontarian pre-meds), no special considerations for any of the Ontario med schools (unless you actually lived in Northern Ontario, or is from the swomen area). A 29 MCAT basically means your chances for med school in Canada is shot assuming you only have Ontario residency... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm from the US, but moving to Canada so I'm trying to learn how things work up there. A 29 MCAT doesn't get a Canadian into med school? Are the standards that much higher in Canada? I had plenty of classmates in the mid to upper 20s; I think my class's mean MCAT score was about 28 actually. Why are the standards so much higher in Canada, and can you please explain how which province you live in affects the process.

 

[keepontrying]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm from the US, but moving to Canada so I'm trying to learn how things work up there. A 29 MCAT doesn't get a Canadian into med school? Are the standards that much higher in Canada? I had plenty of classmates in the mid to upper 20s; I think my class's mean MCAT score was about 28 actually. Why are the standards so much higher in Canada, and can you please explain how which province you live in affects the process.

The bar is pretty damn high in Canada, and it's not because of the quality of the medical schools - it's simply demand vs supply. In US, state schools are relatively easy to get in as long as your stats are decent, and with so many medical schools overall across the country, chances of admission are much higher. With 3.6 gpa and mid 30 MCAT, you would expect one to get accepted to multiple schools given the interview performance and all things aside are OK. In Canada, there's no magical formula - hell the adcoms probably don't have a formula either.

 

[mlw03]

then why is the supply kept so tight? isn't Canada importing physicians too (like the US)?

 

[mashmetoo]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm from the US, but moving to Canada so I'm trying to learn how things work up there. A 29 MCAT doesn't get a Canadian into med school? Are the standards that much higher in Canada? I had plenty of classmates in the mid to upper 20s; I think my class's mean MCAT score was about 28 actually. Why are the standards so much higher in Canada, and can you please explain how which province you live in affects the process.

There are hard cutoffs for the each MCAT section in most Canadian schools. e.g., Queen's, University of Western Ontario, cutoff for the VR is around 10 in recent years, PS and BS is around 10-11. There's even a cut off for the writing section, it varies from P to S in some years. Imagine that, even if you had a 4.0 GPA, and 45R, you would not even get an interview in these schools with strict S writing section cutoffs, that's the brutal truth. Also, the GPA system we use for all the Ontario schools are tougher too. Only 90%+ are considered 4.0 on our scale (the omsas scale, vs 85%+ being a 4.0 on the AMCAS scale). If you do the math, a person with high 20s, or 28-29 MCAT basically means that they didn't meet the cut off in one or more of the MCAT sections, meaning that they don't get any interviews. Case example, University of Toronto, in 2007-2009, the average OMSAS scale cGPA was 3.9... 3.9!! That's an average entrance gpa of 4.0 if they used the AMCAS scale! The MCAT average was around 35Q I believe. There are similar stats for all other Canadian medical schools. You can see why it's extremely hard to get into med school in Canada.

Also, in-province status plays a HUGE role too. You see, Canada isn't like the US where if you are from (say) California, and you applied to a med school in (say) New York State, you'd have the same chance of acceptance as a New York state applicant.. No sir.. in Canada, each province has in-province PREFERENCE for applicants who are residents of that province. This means that as a resident, you have LOWER MCAT, cGPA requirements/ cutoffs compared to an applicant from the next province over. This basically translates to something like (e.g., an out of province applicant needing a 3.9cgpa, 35+ MCAT to have a realistic shot to the University of Alberta, compared to a Alberta resident, who will need a 3.6 and 30 MCAT to be competitive.) Also, they have fixed number of seats of "out of province" applicants, e.g., at the University of British Columbia, and Mcgill, they only accept 10 matriculants from outside their provinces each year.. It really is pretty bad.. Canadian premed applicants get treated like international applicants in their own country..

Lastly, the province of Ontario has no preference whatsoever for pre-meds of their province.. This means that applicants from anywhere in Canada can apply to Ontario med schools, and not be subjected to the same ridiculous higher standards, or quota that all the other Canadian provinces subject to applicants from outside their province.. This is why I said that the OP doesn't have a fighting chance in hell with those stats.. Also.. he's 2nd year.. The only 2nd years to get into med schools had near perfect GPAs and MCATs.. he got outclassed in more ways than one unfortunately.

But since you are a fellow, it'll be a lot easier to practice in Canada assuming you did all the required Canadian licensing exams. Also, the DO thing is making splashes in Canada too, the barriers are coming down

 

[mashmetoo]

then why is the supply kept so tight? isn't Canada importing physicians too (like the US)?

Ya there's a big problem with that too. You see, we Canadian sure import lots of international physicians, BUT we don't accept their foreign credentials and insist that they pass our Canadian board/certification exams. Now, imagine this - all these immigrant doctors probably aren't that proficient in English, and they probably finished their basic sciences years/decades ago. Asking them to relearn all of that and to pass our board exams is pretty hard. We actually have a huge problem of foreign physician immigrants in Canada, not doing anything related to medicine, if they are lucky, they end up in medical research at best.. heck, the problem is not just limited to foreign physicians, foreign PhDs face similar career discrimination, their education is not recognized, this is why there are Indian nuclear physicist PhDs driving taxis in Toronto.

 

[mlw03]

interesting info all, thanks. to clarify a few things, if a US med school is a state med school, ie Ohio State University, in-state residents have big preference in admission. private med schools on the other hand accept whoever they want.

and for the province i'm looking at working in, USMLE is accepted. i don't need to retake any Canadian licensing exams.

 

[mashmetoo]

interesting info all, thanks. to clarify a few things, if a US med school is a state med school, ie Ohio State University, in-state residents have big preference in admission. private med schools on the other hand accept whoever they want.

and for the province i'm looking at working in, USMLE is accepted. i don't need to retake any Canadian licensing exams.

are you sure about that? this was the case for about a year between 2008 and 2009. In 2010, they changed the rules such that USMDs/USDOs HAVE to write the MCCQEs (Canadian board exams) to get a full license, if you don't plan on writing the QEs, you can only get a temporary license subject to renewal.. So if you are planning on permanently setting shop in Canada, the QEs are a must.

And yes.. there are no private med schools in Canada, socialized medicine and all, government directly/indirectly controls the number of med school seats. Also part of the reason why the competition is so brutal.

 

[mlw03]

am i sure? no. but i have started on my provincial medical license application and saw nothing indicating i needed to retake them, and i was told by my future employer that i did not need to. and i don't care if my license is only temporary and has to be renewed, but i was told that after a 3 year period of temporarly licensure, i would be granted a full license if all goes fine. the person who told me this has had other US trained physicians do this, i trust that she knows what she's talking about. if i ever were faced with having to retake USMLE-type exams, that's probably when i head back south. there's no way i'm studying for and retaking those exams at this point in my life when i've already proven myself.

 

[Giemsa]

then why is the supply kept so tight? isn't Canada importing physicians too (like the US)?

The number of medical students entering Canadian schools has increased dramatically over the last 10 years (going from ~1500 to over 2500). As a consequence, various projections have estimated that the "physician shortage" will be caught up over the next decade.

At present, Canada is a net importer, but everyone is eager to get away from that state of affairs (particularly since we're purloining MDs from countries that can't afford to spare them).

But care is being taken not to "overshoot the mark" - the only thing worse than too few MDs is too many . . . .

am i sure? no.

They're probably going to sneak you through on the "provisional register with conditional practice". I don't work in Alberta, but they don't specify LMCC as a requirement, and the MCCEE is excused as long as you hold a US MD, so it looks like it should work.

They must want you bad! Neurosurgeon? Pediatric subspecialist?

Getting licensure will probably be a slow and intermittently frustrating process - my totally unsolicited advice is to try to not get discouraged or take it personally. (I followed a completely conventional Canadian med school / residency pathway, and getting licensure in my original province felt a lot like getting raked over the coals - interestingly, the next province was easier ).

 

[mashmetoo]

They're probably going to sneak you through on the "provisional register with conditional practice". I don't work in Alberta, but they don't specify LMCC as a requirement, and the MCCEE is excused as long as you hold a US MD, so it looks like it should work.

They must want you bad! Neurosurgeon? Pediatric subspecialist?

Getting licensure will probably be a slow and intermittently frustrating process - my totally unsolicited advice is to try to not get discouraged or take it personally. (I followed a completely conventional Canadian med school / residency pathway, and getting licensure in my original province felt a lot like getting raked over the coals - interestingly, the next province was easier ).

I'm pretty sure mlw03 is a US DO as he's from a COM in Florida..

 

[Giemsa]

I'm pretty sure mlw03 is a US DO as he's from a COM in Florida..

I guess precision is the name of the game - I abbreviated "medical degree" to MD.

The actual phrase is:

As of March 1, 2011, successful completion of the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Examination (MCCEE) is required. Please note the Medical Council of Canada exempts holders of a Canadian or US medical degree from writing the evaluating examination. (emphasis mine)

http://www.cpsa.ab.ca/Services/Regi...rta_Medical_Licence/independent_practice.aspx

Is the DO also considered a "medical degree"?

 

[mashmetoo]

Is the DO also considered a "medical degree"?

No, Osteopathic medicine is the study of slugs and their mating habits

Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine


Policy Category: Registration
Approved by Council: September 2003
Reviewed and Updated: February 2010; February 2011
College Contact: Registration Inquiries

Purpose

This policy delineates the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario's position on the equivalency of osteopathic medicine degrees from an accredited osteopathic medical school to medical degrees from an accredited medical school.
Scope

This policy applies to physicians who have an osteopathic medicine degree from an osteopathic medical school accredited by the American Osteopathic Association.
Policy

The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario will recognize a degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine granted by an osteopathic medical school in the United States that was, at the time the degree was granted, accredited by the American Osteopathic Association as equivalent to a degree in medicine as defined in clause (a) of Section 1 of Ontario Regulation 865/93.

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1654&terms=osteopathic+medicine

Implementation of the Canadian Standard
The FMRAC agreement addresses entry to practice requirements for full licensure as well as provisional, or restricted, licensure.
As a first step towards implementation of the full agreement, in February 2010, Council agreed to implement immediately the FMRAC requirements for full licensure, defined as the Canadian Standard in the FMRAC agreement. The Canadian Standard requires that new applicants have the following qualifications in order to be eligible for a full (unrestricted) license to practise medicine:
a) have a medical degree from a medical school listed in the FAIMER's International Medical Education Directory (IMED) or the WHO's World Directory of Medical Schools (WDMS) or a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree from a school in the US accredited by the American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation; and
b) be a Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada; and
c) have satisfactorily completed a discipline-appropriate postgraduate training program in allopathic medicine and evaluation by a recognized authority; and
d) be certified by the College of Family Physicians of Canada or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the Collège des médicins du Québec.
The registration qualifications outlined in the Canadian standard do not differ substantially from Ontario's current registration requirements. However, implementing the Canadian standard as well as implementing the AIT has led to some changes in existing CPSO registration policies. More information is available under Registration Policies.

http://www.cpso.on.ca/registration/default.aspx?id=3886&terms=Canadian+standard

mlw03 - the bolded part basically says that you need to take both the MCCQE part 1 and MCCQE part 2 for an unrestricted licensure, otherwise you have to work under supervision the whole time. I'm fairly sure that this is something your agent neglected to tell you... Note that this "Canadian Standard" applies nation wide, it doesn't matter which province you plan to go to, they want the process standardized so that your registration pathway in (say) Ontario is exactly the same as your registration pathway in (say) Alberta, or whichever province you plan to go to.

 

[mlw03]

ok, let's all settle down and clarify. 1) i'm an MD (COM = college OF medicine). 2) i have a full license in one US state. 3) i am a subspecialist pathologist in an area Canada has very few active training programs in. i don't know how "bad" anyone wants me, but i have formal training from a very good US program in a field where there are less than 600 people practicing in the US and Canada combined (~ 500 US, ~ 50 Canada).

regarding the supervision, again, that is not an issue for me if you are correct, and i'm just not sure you are. you could be, but i don't see a reason for my future boss to lie to me on this issue. if i want to practice doing what i do, it has to be in her office, which i'm fine with since she seems like a very pleasant person from my interactions. if i have have a desire to go to another province, i'll worry about their requirements then. and if the Canadian licensing bodies ever decide my qualifications no longer meet their standards, then back south to the ol' US of A i shall go.

geimsa - so far the process for Alberta licensure has been very similar to what i had to go through for my state medical license. they're asking for copies of pretty standard stuff: med school diploma, residency training rotations, copy of my certification from the American Board of Pathology, stuff like that. and slow is fine - i don't start the job until well into 2012, but the lengthy process is why i was asked to start it early.

if there's any more to discuss on this, please let's start a new thread, as we've long hijacked the original poster's question.

 

[mashmetoo]

ok, let's all settle down and clarify. 1) i'm an MD (COM = college OF medicine). .

Oh, my bad. I assumed "COM" meant "College of Osteopathic Medicine", like PCOM, COMP (Philadelphia college of osteo. med., College of osteo. med. of the Pacific).
Regarding whether I'm correct or not, well that doesn't matter, I simply posted their policies, that's what it says.. Maybe there's ways to work around the system, who knows. (btw, a licentiate of the medical council of Canada (LMCC) means a person who has passed both the QE1 and QE2 exams).

 

[Giemsa]

i don't know how "bad" anyone wants me, but i have formal training from a very good US program in a field where there are less than 600 people practicing in the US and Canada combined (~ 500 US, ~ 50 Canada).

Oh, that makes sense. Alberta has been working very hard to rebuild their ME office.

You'll love Calgary - it's a great city.