Master thread for those who have found good jobs

[deleted969641]

As a parallel to this thread for those struggling to find good jobs: Master thread for those struggling to find a decent job

If you are reading this and are a senior resident or recent grad and have found a good job, please login or sign up and share your experience.

Please share specifics, such as:
- Did you get the location you want? In a desirable area?
- Academics, satellite academic, hospital employed, private practice employed, or partnership track? Is this what you wanted?
- How was the compensation and contract terms? Did you have any bargaining power to negotiate from the initial offer or was it take-it-or-leave-it?
- Did you have a non-compete agreement? Was it fair?
- What kind of competition did you experience?
- Did you feel lucky to get your job or did you have a lot of other similar offers and good choices?
- Do you have a positive outlook on the job market going forward?
- What resources did you use to find your job?

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[RadOncDude18]

Sooo... I thought I would sign up for SDN (instead of just creeping Like I have done all these years) and give my answer. First I am a 'non-traditional' grad, meaning I have nearly 10 years experience in 'corporate america', I know that had something to do with my good fortune. Second, I am the first in my family to go to college and I come from a small rural community in the south (I could only have gone up, my father didn't graduate high school...). And Finally, I am Not the person that says, 'money can't buy happiness'... I have been out of training for a few months now and nothing puts a smile on my face more than coming home to my large house with my very large sectional lazy-boy couch, very nice surround sound system and my 80+ inch flat screen... just saying... ear to ear...

Ok now to the meat and potatoes:

I work in a desirable location in the midwest, in a desirable area for me at least, good night life, great for families, airport 20 minutes away, etc.
I am under contract on a private practice partnership track which is what I wanted
Non-compete was very aggressive, but my lawyer assured me that it would not hold up in court if contested... (hopefully never comes to that, I love my group/job)
I did not negotiate my contract, figured I am a new grad what bargaining chip do I have right now? Plus, I wanted the job and they met my initial minimal salary request...
Extreme competition, and Yes I do feel lucky... I was told that residents and their attending both applied lol
I am generally positive when it comes to the 'job market'... why? cause I Love What I Do! I can easily be a radonc anywhere... no weekends, no holidays, top pay, and the patient's are great!
Resources used were Indeed and ASTRO jobs, mostly ASTRO though... I found a job very quickly... (Boards mid July, signed letter of intent early Sept.) so can't really comment on what are good resources...

TIPS:
-Take the job search/interview process seriously! one of the 'reasons' cited for why I was hired was my professionalism and maturity.
-If you have a phone interview do it at a desk with a pen/paper, or at least sound like you are, apparently I was told someone had a phone interview at a specific time and was like "oh, hold on, let me pull over"... that did not go over well.
-IT IS HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely you will find a job at 'home'... it just isn't a thing or it's very rare. I knew this when I choose RadOnc and I now live and work 5 states away from where I grew up and ALL of my friends from high school to medical school are home now, and yes that part kinda stinks, but hey I made a lot of new friends.
-Follow up point, Apply broadly! People in RadOnc are all like "there's NO JOBS!", B...S... There are plenty of jobs! Just not where 'you WANT to live'... but hey with the +500k you will make in Idaho and 10 weeks of vacay, you could literally charter a private jet anywhere you want if you wanted to spend +15k on it..., eh, you're making 25k per month after taxes anyways...
-Finally money is not everything, but it certainly helps. Think of it as a tool to be used to bring you happiness. I am a home body, so I made my home the way I want it... and there's a lot of snow outside lol. Time and money, you can do anything you want in life with enough of both.

Good Luck!

 

[deleted18755]

Sooo... I thought I would sign up for SDN (instead of just creeping Like I have done all these years) and give my answer. First I am a 'non-traditional' grad, meaning I have nearly 10 years experience in 'corporate america', I know that had something to do with my good fortune. Second, I am the first in my family to go to college and I come from a small rural community in the south (I could only have gone up, my father didn't graduate high school...). And Finally, I am Not the person that says, 'money can't buy happiness'... I have been out of training for a few months now and nothing puts a smile on my face more than coming home to my large house with my very large sectional lazy-boy couch, very nice surround sound system and my 80+ inch flat screen... just saying... ear to ear...

Ok now to the meat and potatoes:

I work in a desirable location in the midwest, in a desirable area for me at least, good night life, great for families, airport 20 minutes away, etc.
I am under contract on a private practice partnership track which is what I wanted
Non-compete was very aggressive, but my lawyer assured me that it would not hold up in court if contested... (hopefully never comes to that, I love my group/job)
I did not negotiate my contract, figured I am a new grad what bargaining chip do I have right now? Plus, I wanted the job and they met my initial minimal salary request...
Extreme competition, and Yes I do feel lucky... I was told that residents and their attending both applied lol
I am generally positive when it comes to the 'job market'... why? cause I Love What I Do! I can easily be a radonc anywhere... no weekends, no holidays, top pay, and the patient's are great!
Resources used were Indeed and ASTRO jobs, mostly ASTRO though... I found a job very quickly... (Boards mid July, signed letter of intent early Sept.) so can't really comment on what are good resources...

TIPS:
-Take the job search/interview process seriously! one of the 'reasons' cited for why I was hired was my professionalism and maturity.
-If you have a phone interview do it at a desk with a pen/paper, or at least sound like you are, apparently I was told someone had a phone interview at a specific time and was like "oh, hold on, let me pull over"... that did not go over well.
-IT IS HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely you will find a job at 'home'... it just isn't a thing or it's very rare. I knew this when I choose RadOnc and I now live and work 5 states away from where I grew up and ALL of my friends from high school to medical school are home now, and yes that part kinda stinks, but hey I made a lot of new friends.
-Follow up point, Apply broadly! People in RadOnc are all like "there's NO JOBS!", B...S... There are plenty of jobs! Just not where 'you WANT to live'... but hey with the +500k you will make in Idaho and 10 weeks of vacay, you could literally charter a private jet anywhere you want if you wanted to spend +15k on it..., eh, you're making 25k per month after taxes anyways...
-Finally money is not everything, but it certainly helps. Think of it as a tool to be used to bring you happiness. I am a home body, so I made my home the way I want it... and there's a lot of snow outside lol. Time and money, you can do anything you want in life with enough of both.

Good Luck!

Congrats and welcome to the most incredible field in all of medicine!

 

[w00tz]

bump. Maybe a poll would help? Truly interested in what the breakdown of good vs bad jobs out there right now. I haven't started mine yet, but it seems to be a decent gig.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I came out 5-10 years ago, but love my job/group.

We hire fairly consistently.

 

[PhotonBomb]

Love my position.

 

[lhl]

I love my job but am somewhat apprehensive about sharing all specifics out of a desire for anonymity, so this is about as specific as I would want to be:

- Graduated within the last few years
- Coastal metropolis, highly desirable
- Academics/comp cancer center
- exactly the type of job I wanted
- More or less take-it-or-leave-it, although compensation is around 90th percentile of MGMA, i have protected academic time, and I feel supported by my department, so nothing to complain about really.
- No issues with non-compete
- There was moderate competition in the job market. I ended up with 4-5 offers but there was one job I interviewed for and really was hoping to get an offer for and did not because it was given to another candidate who accepted. There were many jobs I applied for and did not get interviewed for. My rad onc friends seem to have gotten jobs they are happy with (n of about 10): some academic, some pp, some rural (very high guaranteed starting salary), some urban, some midwest, some east coast, some west coast. Three have changed jobs within 3 years of graduation and seemed pleased with their ability to transition into a job that was a better fit for them.
- I do feel fortunate.
- Do you have a positive outlook on the job market going forward? - No
- What resources did you use to find your job? - Networking and ASTRO Jobs board

 

[RO28]

I also have a very good job and will provide some details, but spare some others.

- recent graduate
- located in a coastal region considered highly deisrable
- private practice/hospital large group employed, partnership track. This is the job I wanted.
- the contract seemed to be take it or leave it, I was happy with the offer, including benefits, so did not feel that there was other missing items that I needed/wanted to negotiate for
- reasonable non-compete
- I don't know many details about competition, but from what I have heard it was definitely there for my current position. I did several interviews as a senior resident but had a job offer that I wanted early so accepted it before additional offers were made or pursued. I do feel fortunate to have my job, I wouldn't say lucky because that assumes it just landed in my lap. I did start networking very early and relied on every resource available to me.
- I don't have a good answer for the job market going forward, I certainly believe there are challenges that as a field we need to address. Can we address them and improve things, yes. Will we, I don't know yet.
- I used LOTS of networking. I started early in residency because I knew what I wanted and used every resource I had. I was not shy about telling my program director what I wanted and they were instrumental in helping me secure this position. For that I am very thankful.

 

[deleted18755]

I love my job but am somewhat apprehensive about sharing all specifics out of a desire for anonymity, so this is about as specific as I would want to be:

- Graduated within the last few years
- Coastal metropolis, highly desirable
- Academics/comp cancer center
- exactly the type of job I wanted
- More or less take-it-or-leave-it, although compensation is around 90th percentile of MGMA, i have protected academic time, and I feel supported by my department, so nothing to complain about really.
- No issues with non-compete
- There was moderate competition in the job market. I ended up with 4-5 offers but there was one job I interviewed for and really was hoping to get an offer for and did not because it was given to another candidate who accepted. There were many jobs I applied for and did not get interviewed for. My rad onc friends seem to have gotten jobs they are happy with (n of about 10): some academic, some pp, some rural (very high guaranteed starting salary), some urban, some midwest, some east coast, some west coast. Three have changed jobs within 3 years of graduation and seemed pleased with their ability to transition into a job that was a better fit for them.
- I do feel fortunate.
- Do you have a positive outlook on the job market going forward? - No
- What resources did you use to find your job? - Networking and ASTRO Jobs board

Wow this wonderful. Any idea why they offered you protected time AND 90th percentile MGMA? Hard to call it "take it or leave it" when it's that amazing!

 

[medgator]

I kinda wonder what 90th even looks like now.... I think it was $800k but that was years ago

Wow this wonderful. Any idea why they offered you protected time AND 90th percentile MGMA? Hard to call it "take it or leave it" when it's that amazing!

 

[xrthopeful]

90th is 760k per MGMA

 

[DukeNukem]

Wow this wonderful. Any idea why they offered you protected time AND 90th percentile MGMA? Hard to call it "take it or leave it" when it's that amazing!

Hire me!!!

 

[lhl]

Wow this wonderful. Any idea why they offered you protected time AND 90th percentile MGMA? Hard to call it "take it or leave it" when it's that amazing!

Oldking, I tried to message you but it doesn't look like you accept direct messages... Anyways, MGMA is total comp. My base comp is not 90th percentile. Also there are many different ways to look at MGMA (Academic vs. private, broken down by academic rank, broken down by region of country, etc.) My intention wasn't to provide an exact number but rather just to convey that I feel very fairly (above average) compensated. With all the doom and gloom surrounding our field with the recent match, board exams, etc. I thought it was important to share my relatively positive experience, even though I am typically a shy/reserved person and don't like talking about the specifics of things, especially in a way that may come across as lacking in humility.

edit: "the take or leave it" part was in reference to the fact that I was given what seemed to be a standard contract without really any room for negotiation and I knew if I didn't take it, someone else would...so to the original poster's point, not much bargaining power...which there definitely was more of in some less desirable jobs/areas.

 

[PointA]

There is no way any graduating resident is getting anything close to 760k at an academic department with protected research time. The Terry Wall data had a range of salaries for new grads in academics and I'm pretty sure the highest for academics was below 500k for a new grad. But anyways, it sounds like you got a great job and feel well compensated so congrats!

The "take it or leave it" offer is consistent with what I have seen for new grads going into academics. There is very little negotiating power in academics in terms of salary, partly because there are lots of qualified candidates for the job and partly because some chairs want to have standardized entry level salaries to avoid favoritism/ friction among new hires. There is however some potential to negotiate academic time or resources for research.

 

[deleted941485]

I love my job but am somewhat apprehensive about sharing all specifics out of a desire for anonymity, so this is about as specific as I would want to be:

- Graduated within the last few years
- Coastal metropolis, highly desirable
- Academics/comp cancer center
- exactly the type of job I wanted
- More or less take-it-or-leave-it, although compensation is around 90th percentile of MGMA, i have protected academic time, and I feel supported by my department, so nothing to complain about really.
- No issues with non-compete
- There was moderate competition in the job market. I ended up with 4-5 offers but there was one job I interviewed for and really was hoping to get an offer for and did not because it was given to another candidate who accepted. There were many jobs I applied for and did not get interviewed for. My rad onc friends seem to have gotten jobs they are happy with (n of about 10): some academic, some pp, some rural (very high guaranteed starting salary), some urban, some midwest, some east coast, some west coast. Three have changed jobs within 3 years of graduation and seemed pleased with their ability to transition into a job that was a better fit for them.
- I do feel fortunate.
- Do you have a positive outlook on the job market going forward? - No
- What resources did you use to find your job? - Networking and ASTRO Jobs board

Coastal Metropolis, Academics (With protected time no less), and 90th%ile MGMA shouldn't even really be in the same paragraph unless of course you're the chair. I wish it was true but I'm finding the whole set up hard to believe. There is a catch somewhere a big one. Also, Is it really wise to throw these numbers around on the forum? I mean honestly not only are you setting a bunch of salivating under paid and indebted residents up for some serious disappointment but also fueling the contempt of our overworked and underpaid fellow physicians. At any rate, I'm for relegating this fantasy session thread to the garbage heap.

 

[deleted18755]

Oldking, I tried to message you but it doesn't look like you accept direct messages... Anyways, MGMA is total comp. My base comp is not 90th percentile. Also there are many different ways to look at MGMA (Academic vs. private, broken down by academic rank, broken down by region of country, etc.) My intention wasn't to provide an exact number but rather just to convey that I feel very fairly (above average) compensated. With all the doom and gloom surrounding our field with the recent match, board exams, etc. I thought it was important to share my relatively positive experience, even though I am typically a shy/reserved person and don't like talking about the specifics of things, especially in a way that may come across as lacking in humility.

edit: "the take or leave it" part was in reference to the fact that I was given what seemed to be a standard contract without really any room for negotiation and I knew if I didn't take it, someone else would...so to the original poster's point, not much bargaining power...which there definitely was more of in some less desirable jobs/areas.

Maybe my message didn't come off the right way but I am honestly and very much not sarcastically just really impressed with our situation and happy for you.

Oh I see about MGMA but still even if it is total compensation and you get protected time it's still such a great deal. I'm honestly curious why they would offer you such a great deal as "take it or leave it" vs offering you less and letting you try to negotiate up or just plain less and take it or leave it (you probably would have still taken it, right).

Everybody can agree that the board failure fiasco from last year was ridiculous, separately our field has potential big problems moving forward and the residency expansion isn't helping, and that there are obviously people like me and others 10-15+ years out living the dream in relatively protected bubbles of the country, but how in the world are some graduates in 2019 getting offers like yours in desirable coastal areas with excellent salaries and protected academic time while others (maybe a troll or two notwithstanding) are desperately searching and borderline suicidal?

I don't plan on looking for another job anytime soon or ever but I'm just curious and sure others would appreciate more specific pointers... Is networking (with receptive networks and mentors) really what makes or breaks it?

 

[RO28]

Maybe my message didn't come off the right way but I am honestly and very much not sarcastically just really impressed with our situation and happy for you.

Oh I see about MGMA but still even if it is total compensation and you get protected time it's still such a great deal. I'm honestly curious why they would offer you such a great deal as "take it or leave it" vs offering you less and letting you try to negotiate up or just plain less and take it or leave it (you probably would have still taken it, right).

Everybody can agree that the board failure fiasco from last year was ridiculous, separately our field has potential big problems moving forward and the residency expansion isn't helping, and that there are obviously people like me and others 10-15+ years out living the dream in relatively protected bubbles of the country, but how in the world are some graduates in 2019 getting offers like yours in desirable coastal areas with excellent salaries and protected academic time while others (maybe a troll or two notwithstanding) are desperately searching and borderline suicidal?

I don't plan on looking for another job anytime soon or ever but I'm just curious and sure others would appreciate more specific pointers... Is networking (with receptive networks and mentors) really what makes or breaks it?

For me, I believe yes, the networking was the make it or break issue. I’m happy to chat more with anyone in a PM. I want to help.

 

[lhl]

Coastal Metropolis, Academics (With protected time no less), and 90th%ile MGMA shouldn't even really be in the same paragraph unless of course you're the chair. I wish it was true but I'm finding the whole set up hard to believe. There is a catch somewhere a big one. Also, Is it really wise to throw these numbers around on the forum? I mean honestly not only are you setting a bunch of salivating under paid and indebted residents up for some serious disappointment but also fueling the contempt of our overworked and underpaid fellow physicians. At any rate, I'm for relegating this fantasy session thread to the garbage heap.

I'm sorry that this is difficult to believe and I questioned myself whether it was "wise" to share on this forum. I understand. Nonetheless, I thought it was important for people to realize that there is a broad spectrum of opportunities out there. By no means would I consider my situation, which I acknowledge is somewhat of an outlier, to be a reasonable "expectation" for an early career physician. I realize that this forum tends to focus on the negative and this doesn't really fit that narrative. I have refrained from posting about my job (and some others I know of with very good situations) in the past because I didn't want to detract from the legitimate concerns regarding the direction of our field and because I am all too aware of how small the field and, like I said, i'm a private person who wishes to remain anonymous. But, when a specific thread was made to discuss those who are happy (and perhaps I'm in the minority), I decided to share and I feel the information is useful for residents and other physicians.

You are free to believe whatever you want. I stand by what I posted as accurate and useful information for those who wish to appreciate the spectrum of opportunities out there. Again, I would be the first to admit that my situation is likely somewhat of an outlier. If you want to put your head in the sand and think what i'm describing is fantasy that's your prerogative. Please though, spare me the unfortunate accusation and attempt to shame/discredit me for somehow breeding disappointment and/or contempt. My motivation couldn't be further from this. People would be wise to understand the diversity of jobs out there.

No matter what field or line of work you are in, there will always be the opportunity to have the "grass is greener" mindset. In the end, what matters is if you are happy with your day to day work and lifestyle. I can say that I am. I wish everyone else, especially my fellow rad oncs, the same. This will be my last post on the subject.

 

[xrthopeful]

90th is 760k per MGMA

Missed the part where poster said in academics. 90th for MGMA with academics is bit over 500k

The job sounds pretty great and not at all out of line from jobs I know about.

Many of the long time posters here make this money and much more than this money. No matter how much they complain they’re raking it in.

 

[medgator]

Many of the long time posters here make this money and much more than this money. No matter how much they complain they’re raking it in.

Pretty sure none of the long time posters here are the ones complaining about their jobs or compensation. The market was much better a decade+ ago

 

[xrthopeful]

Pretty sure none of the long time posters here are the ones complaining about their jobs or compensation. The market was much better a decade+ ago

Other than Duke - who is complaining about their job then though?

The long time posters are definitely carrying the ‘rad onc is dead’ flag while they rake in their gold doubloons though

 

[medgator]

Other than Duke - who is complaining about their job then though?

The long time posters are definitely carrying the ‘rad onc is dead’ flag while they rake in their gold doubloons though

You'd rather have them parrot the lies being propagated elsewhere? Ridiculous. This forum called it before anywhere else. You must one of those bitter ones who finished training recently.

sucks, but that's the idea of being truthful about what is out there rather than pretending everything is awesome

 

[deleted941485]

Just saying. I don’t think it’s advisable to post numbers. The EM forum used to brag about their locum rates and rads used to brag about how much they got for reading a CT. Needless to say that type of chatter has gone way down. It’s Not unreasonable to think that People with anti physician agendas read this forum and use this as fodder. But hey everybody is free to do what they want here.

 

[tzarafan]

I’ll be starting my radiation oncology residency in a year but if this article is any indication of what people do who cannot find a job after residency it is definitely concerning.

Apparently she started a surgical residency after completing her residency in Rad Onc but was dismissed after an altercation with another resident, now roaming the floors of multiple hospitals impersonating a resident.

Dressed in scrubs, she roamed the hospital. But she wasn’t supposed to be there. - The Boston Globe

 

[xrthopeful]

You'd rather have them parrot the lies being propagated elsewhere? Ridiculous. This forum called it before anywhere else. You must one of those bitter ones who finished training recently.

sucks, but that's the idea of being truthful about what is out there rather than pretending everything is awesome

Bitter? Nah - I actually think the number of people that are bitter are actually very few. No one I know is upset with their job situation.

Reality is this - the field has things it needs to address - curbing expansion and also finding ways to improve current resident programs, many of which are glorified private practices. However currently the job market has not tanked yet - you would be hard pressed to find someone in real life that is a recent grad that says they’re bitter about their job.


There is way more talk about bitterness here than peope that are actually bitter. Like I said the main complainers are the people counting their doubloons like you. Not sure why that’s the case but here we are.

 

[medgator]

Bitter? Nah - I actually think the number of people that are bitter are actually very few. No one I know is upset with their job situation.

Reality is this - the field has things it needs to address - curbing expansion and also finding ways to improve current resident programs, many of which are glorified private practices. However currently the job market has not tanked yet - you would be hard pressed to find someone in real life that is a recent grad that says they’re bitter about their job.


There is way more talk about bitterness here than peope that are actually bitter. Like I said the main complainers are the people counting their doubloons like you. Not sure why that’s the case but here we are.

Clearly we aren't talking to the same folks graduating, nor are you acknowledging recent data on the matter (which is likely worse now)

I know multiple people that had to take fellowships to wait out a year to get a job near their preferred locale (had to be there secondary to family/spouse job issues) and others who simply accepted they would be nowhere near their preferred locale for the near future.

Btw, No need to troll about what I do in my spare time. Let's not try to make things personal

 

[scarbrtj]

current resident programs, many of which are glorified private practices.

In reality, and in a perfect world, this should not be a disparagement. There are such things as "community-based" residencies. A community-based rad onc residency? Angels and ministers of grace, defend us. Wouldn't we want the private practitioner in primary care—or any specialty—to be as astute and as capable as the academician? Private practice is rad onc code for inferior. That's an elitism I'm not sure we can confidently and plausibly brandish much longer. When I interviewed at Vandy for residency (prior to them actually starting up their residency) the chair told me: "We have no interest in training private practice radiation oncologists at Vanderbilt"... and it gave me a pit in my stomach.

 

[scarbrtj]

I’ll be starting my radiation oncology residency in a year but if this article is any indication of what people do who cannot find a job after residency it is definitely concerning.

Apparently she started a surgical residency after completing her residency in Rad Onc but was dismissed after an altercation with another resident, now roaming the floors of multiple hospitals impersonating a resident.

Dressed in scrubs, she roamed the hospital. But she wasn’t supposed to be there. - The Boston Globe

She's like Casey Affleck in 'A Ghost Story,' her soul trying to stay on after her resident's body had left its educational Bostonian realm. I genuinely feel for her. On a plus note, investigators described her as "articulate and intelligent" (as all radiation oncologists are obviously). This sad tale of her not (ever?) finding a job as a rad onc is either fake news (did she finish residency?) and negative energy/inappropriate for this thread... or information.

You decide.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

When I came out of residency, a few academic centers in my area were willing to bestow me with the title of "expert of this or that" straight of residency. Expert of GI at one, GU at another, etc...

I turned these centers down to become a private practice generalist. To my knowledge, those places still hired someone to fill those positions. Plan Bs, if you will.

So, despite my being a private practice generalist, if you're a patient with GI or GU cancer in my area.... do you want to see the local academic center's Plan A or their Plan B?

Glorified private practice indeed.

EDIT: Caveat: I was likely already their Plan E, but that just makes the guy they hired at least Plan F.

 

[scarbrtj]

When I came out of residency, a few academic centers in my area were willing to bestow me with the title of "expert of this or that" straight of residency. Expert of GI at one, GU at another, etc...

I turned these centers down to become a private practice generalist. To my knowledge, those places still hired someone to fill those positions. Plan Bs, if you will.

So, despite my being a private practice generalist, if you're a patient with GI or GU cancer in my area.... do you want to see the local academic center's Plan A or their Plan B?

Glorified private practice indeed.

EDIT: Caveat: I was likely already their Plan E, but that just makes the guy they hired at least Plan F.

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Like Blanche Dubois always relying on the kindness of strangers, in academics radiation oncologists (may! not always) rely on the blindness of those outside our specialty to know what an "expert" is.* Me... I just like to use a lot of XRT techno-babble at tumor board.

*(may explain why those holding purse strings in academics, who are never rad oncs, let the rad oncs spend MILLIONS on protons!)

 

[xrthopeful]

In reality, and in a perfect world, this should not be a disparagement. There are such things as "community-based" residencies. A community-based rad onc residency? Angels and ministers of grace, defend us. Wouldn't we want the private practitioner in primary care—or any specialty—to be as astute and as capable as the academician? Private practice is rad onc code for inferior. That's an elitism I'm not sure we can confidently and plausibly brandish much longer. When I interviewed at Vandy for residency (prior to them actually starting up their residency) the chair told me: "We have no interest in training private practice radiation oncologists at Vanderbilt"... and it gave me a pit in my stomach.

Not meant to disparage PP at all. An ideal residency program should train you amazingly well for PP in fact


What I meant by glorified PP is that many current training programs have no interest in educating you but rather be just want you there for notes and contours. You’re just a cog in the wheel.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

You’re just a cog in the wheel.

Unfortunately, this means they are doing an excellent job of preparing residents to be a physician (really, of any specialty) in 2019. We are the new pork bellies and frozen concentrated orange juice.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Unfortunately, this means they are doing an excellent job of preparing residents to be a physician (really, of any specialty) in 2019. We are the new pork bellies and frozen concentrated orange juice.

Thats fine but you still want your partner to know rad onc right? some places focus little to none on education. Residents teach themselves. If you are an applicant reading this, stay far far away from these places (PM me if you have questions about a program and i can tell u what i know or try to help u). Many places are simply not serving the purpose of educating people. What keeps people from reporting it and shutting down their program? Fear, lack of options, thinking just get through it and gtfo asap. If there was an initiative to guarantee a spot in better programs for them, many would come forward and put their place on blast. There are a lot of bad programs out there. They should frankly be shut down. BEWARE. some of these are even in good institutions. Issue is complete lack of focus on resident education, little faculty involvement in clinical didactics.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Definitely agree. On the trail, ask residents which faculty member gave the last didactic or who their career mentor is. These are seemingly benign questions that you can insert into casual conversation without drawing too much attention. If the person you're asking looks at you like you're crazy, run away.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Thats one thing i agree with Walner about, as nauseous as saying that makes me. He says that during his time at the ACGME he became “aware” of how many bad programs there are with no educational focus (yet did nothing about it?) but now wants to use program size as a surrogate. With news that ACGME is coming for programs <6 residents, we miss opportunity to adddress education. There may be smaller programs with a great educational program, just as i know for a fact there are bigger programs that by his definition educate little to none.

 

[xrthopeful]

Agree that there are probably some programs with less than 6 people that have a track record of good training.

One interesting idea I saw floated on twitter was that perhaps there could be some sort of way of assigning ‘programs of excellence’ monikers that could protect smaller programs (and larger) that have proven themselves in terms of education.

 

[deleted18755]

Definitely agree. On the trail, ask residents which faculty member gave the last didactic or who their career mentor is. These are seemingly benign questions that you can insert into casual conversation without drawing too much attention. If the person you're asking looks at you like you're crazy, run away.

This is so sad. Along those lines there appear to be programs (not sure if it's mutually exclusive but I'd assume some correlation) where the faculty will really go out of their way to help their residents network and do whatever they can to help the residents land a great job that makes them happy and successful.

Medical students: do whatever you can to figure out which programs have the best teaching AND mentors who help with your education and job search.

Residents: please help medical students identify these programs before they make their match list!!!

 

[skarabrae]

For me, I believe yes, the networking was the make it or break issue. I’m happy to chat more with anyone in a PM. I want to help.

I tried to message you but it looks like your account is not accepting PMs .

 

[RO28]

I tried to message you but it looks like your account is not accepting PMs .

I sent you a message, let me know if that worked.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Thats one thing i agree with Walner about, as nauseous as saying that makes me.

You need to wash your mouth out with soap!

 

[metview]

How common is it for faculty, PD, and chairmen from highly academic programs to call/reach out on a resident's behalf to secure a PP job (as opposed to an academic job)? Is it more on the resident to secure a PP job?

I feel like a lot of these high academic places want their residents to go into academia.

 

[xrthopeful]

How common is it for faculty, PD, and chairmen from highly academic programs to call/reach out on a resident's behalf to secure a PP job (as opposed to an academic job)? Is it more on the resident to secure a PP job?

I feel like a lot of these high academic places want their residents to go into academia.

It’s very common.

Look at the recent grads listed on the websites of ‘top places’. Lots and lots going to great private practices

 

[seper]

In my experience, not very common for true PP jobs. Chairmen offering their good residents is common for top academic places. It also happening for hospital-employed, somewhat-academic positions (e.g. Northwestern, Rush, UPMC, etc), and I've met a few people who got their first jobs that way.

It’s very common.



Look at the recent grads listed on the websites of ‘top places’. Lots and lots going to great private practices

 

[medgator]

In my experience, not very common for true PP jobs. Chairmen offering their good residents is common for top academic places. It also happening for hospital-employed, somewhat-academic positions (e.g. Northwestern, Rush, UPMC, etc), and I've met a few people who got their first jobs that way.

Correct. Networking and ties to the area far more important for true pp/community jobs (ie. either psa for hospital or freestanding /pp situations) from what I've seen.

 

[xrthopeful]

Of course ties to the area matter. No one is arguing that.

But there are absolutely also plenty of private practices that do their due diligence and want to talk to your chairman and PD about you. This is part of networking and many of the private groups with good reputations in desirable cities have a history of taking people from ‘top’ programs because they already have people from those programs.


People sometimes have this black/white and either/or view of this PP vs academics thing that simply isn’t true. False idea that you either go to a middle of the road program in the location you want to be for PP or go to an academic elite program if you want to be in academics. This isn’t how it works.

Anyways take home point for medical students - when you’re evaluating training programs ask the residents if faculty are willing to go to bat for you - this is an important part of securing a good job and you want to go to a good program that does this. And go to a program that puts people in both academics and PP and trains you well for both.

 

[StrawberryTongue]

For me, I believe yes, the networking was the make it or break issue. I’m happy to chat more with anyone in a PM. I want to help.

RO28, I tried sending you a DM but doesn't seem to be working. Would really appreciate the chance to chat with you about job search and networking as I'm a current resident. Thank you!

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I actually think it's a good thing to let people know about great job opportunities that are out there. Although, I agree that we do need to stop with all the residency expansions, I think it's good for potential employers to know that applicants still have some power over their decision (albeit not much). Hopefully, this will help places make a more competitive offer to their candidates and not assume every position is gone.

Of course there will always be Salina and Rhinelander! Speaking of which, did anyone take the TX position where they wanted a "seasoned" rad onc?

 

[RO28]

RO28, I tried sending you a DM but doesn't seem to be working. Would really appreciate the chance to chat with you about job search and networking as I'm a current resident. Thank you!

Hi! Try again, I changed some settings. I wasn't able to send you a DM either.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

As a parallel to this thread for those struggling to find good jobs: Master thread for those struggling to find a decent job

If you are reading this and are a senior resident or recent grad and have found a good job, please login or sign up and share your experience.

Please share specifics, such as:
- Did you get the location you want? In a desirable area?

It would not be considered a desirable area by many but I am happy with it. Less than 2 hours drive from a major city, close to an airport.

-Academics, satellite academic, hospital employed, private practice employed, or partnership track? Is this what you wanted?

Satellite. And yes.

- How was the compensation and contract terms? Did you have any bargaining power to negotiate from the initial offer or was it take-it-or-leave-it?

Take it or leave it. Compensation is very competitive and better than anything I have seen or heard of from my classmates. There is a high guaranteed salary with opportunities for productivity bonus.

- Did you have a non-compete agreement? Was it fair?

Noncompete distance is set reasonably so that it only applies to practices close enough to compete for the same patients. Timeframe is also reasonable. However, it is enforceable no matter what the circumstances are of my departure.

- What kind of competition did you experience?

For this job in particular I'm not sure. There were other interviewed candidates passed over for me but I don't know how many. But in general this process was very competitive. I applied mainly to jobs in or near metro areas of large/desirable cities and everyone was interviewing a lot of candidates onsite for a single position.

- Did you feel lucky to get your job or did you have a lot of other similar offers and good choices?

I had other choices that paid much less, most of which were not as aligned with my professional desires.

- Do you have a positive outlook on the job market going forward?

No. I am confident I would have secured a job, probably even in a highly desirable location, but the number of quality offerings (in terms of the structure of job and work environment, not salary) was disappointing. Perhaps this is just the realities of being a new grad?

- What resources did you use to find your job?

Cold emailing and distributing my resume widely. It is important not to limit yourself to ideal job in ideal location early on to maximize your chances of success. Many people who did so still do not have offers.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

How common is it for faculty, PD, and chairmen from highly academic programs to call/reach out on a resident's behalf to secure a PP job (as opposed to an academic job)? Is it more on the resident to secure a PP job?

I feel like a lot of these high academic places want their residents to go into academia.

This varies just like there are many programs in all kinds of institutions where attendings barely teach and little to none involvement in clinical didactics, there are places where people could care little if you have a job , Chairman/PD will NOT call for you, there is just Zero consideration if you are employed. You’re on your way out, old news. Multiple people on here have shared their stories. Also beware and run far far away from these places. Not surprising they are often the same places. Apathy and lack of involvement is theme. Applicants be very careful please. if faculty are not willing to teach you, they don’t care about you, plain and simple. Residents teaching themselves is unacceptable