Married or Single -- What's "Better"

[dc2md]

What do you guys think looks better in a program director's eyes: a single or married applicant??? A single applicant could be looked at as being able to spend more time in the hospital b/c they don't have a wife/husband to go home to. Or do they see a single applicant as maybe wanting to go out and party and meet someone. Is a married applicant seen as more secure and less likely to abandon the program and move b/c they'll also be moving a wife and possibly child? Are married applicants seen as more mature?

As you know, PD's can't ask about whether you're single or married...that must be b/c there's a bias one way or another. Should a married applicant take off his wedding ring if singles are preferred?

Every little bit of advantage counts. I know it probably depends on each program director's personal view. I was just wondering what each of you thought.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

What do you guys think looks better in a program director's eyes: a single or married applicant??? A single applicant could be looked at as being able to spend more time in the hospital b/c they don't have a wife/husband to go home to. Or do they see a single applicant as maybe wanting to go out and party and meet someone. Is a married applicant seen as more secure and less likely to abandon the program and move b/c they'll also be moving a wife and possibly child? Are married applicants seen as more mature?

As you know, PD's can't ask about whether you're single or married...that must be b/c there's a bias one way or another. Should a married applicant take off his wedding ring if singles are preferred?

Every little bit of advantage counts. I know it probably depends on each program director's personal view. I was just wondering what each of you thought.

I would say single.. But I dont think it plays a major role in the selection process.

 

[sophiejane]

You have got to be kidding.

Since we've sunk this low...I wonder if PDs prefer boxers or briefs?

Be who you are. Someone is going to have an opinion one way or the other no matter if you are married, single, gay, straight, fat, thin, etc. etc.

That's why these decisions are made by committees and not dictators. I have to believe that they make decisions based on who will do the best job, not who has a particular social situation.

PS--PM&R is not that competitive. I can't imagine something like your marital status would keep you out of the residency of your choice, and if you do happen to have some deficiencies, your marital status can't make up for them anyway.

 

[BeBop3]

What do you guys think looks better in a program director's eyes: a single or married applicant???

I've thought a lot about this as well. In the end, it seemed like being married would be more of an advantage, so I found a nice girl and tied the knot. Now I couldn't be happier thinking of all the program directors I'm impressing!

 

[orientedtoself]

Should a married applicant take off his wedding ring if singles are preferred?

I wonder what your wife thinks of that.

 

[randomedstudent]

What do you guys think looks better in a program director's eyes: a single or married applicant??? A single applicant could be looked at as being able to spend more time in the hospital b/c they don't have a wife/husband to go home to. Or do they see a single applicant as maybe wanting to go out and party and meet someone. Is a married applicant seen as more secure and less likely to abandon the program and move b/c they'll also be moving a wife and possibly child? Are married applicants seen as more mature?

As you know, PD's can't ask about whether you're single or married...that must be b/c there's a bias one way or another. Should a married applicant take off his wedding ring if singles are preferred?

Every little bit of advantage counts. I know it probably depends on each program director's personal view. I was just wondering what each of you thought.

Seriously, what are you going to do, lie about it? I mean if it comes up just be honest. If you lie and then match at that program, are you going to continue living the lie during residency? That sounds like a lot of added stress. And btw, the reason they can't (or aren't supposed to) ask in interviews is not b/c they have a bias, it's b/c its against the law to base hiring on such factors, also including race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. (I realize there are all kinds of technicalities for religious institutions, but basically thats the case.) Geez people....there are so many important things to worry about, how do you have time to think about these things?

 

[Wrigleyville]

If you were married, would you really want to match at a program that "looked down on" married people? Why would you hide that during the interview? Just be yourself.

 

[DreamLover]

I've thought a lot about this as well. In the end, it seemed like being married would be more of an advantage, so I found a nice girl and tied the knot. Now I couldn't be happier thinking of all the program directors I'm impressing!

I got a good laugh outta that...and I needed one...here's to another long week waiting for invites

 

[pillowhead]

I think marriage helps male applicants. It makes them appear more mature and somehow like they'd work harder because they have to bring home the bacon and they have someone at home to take care of the little stuff like picking up dry cleaning, going grocery shopping, etc.

On the other hand, I think marriage hurts female applicants because rightly or wrongly, the family and home are still generally seen as her responsiblity to deal with and that distracts from work at the hospital. Plus, she can always get pregnant.

Honestly though, with approximately half of all residents being female these days, it's highly unrealistic (and illegal discrimination) for programs to think they can just not rank any married women. Of course, these perceptions will vary from field to field. It may be a complete non-issue for pediatricians, pathologists, family practioners, radiologists, etc. I'm sure some surgical programs still take this into account though.

But as others have said, what are you really going to do about it? The first thing I've been asked when I've called to schedule interviews so far is "Will you be bringing a spouse with you?" I'm not going to not wear my wedding ring at the interview. If you are married, you don't want to be at a place that frowns on marriage anyway.

 

[Pox in a box]

Hey, when one of the residents asks you if you're single and to come back to your hotel prior to your flight home in the morning, do you say you are single and prepare to mingle if you're that eager to get an edge?

 

[randomedstudent]

I think marriage helps male applicants. It makes them appear more mature and somehow like they'd work harder because they have to bring home the bacon and they have someone at home to take care of the little stuff like picking up dry cleaning, going grocery shopping, etc.

On the other hand, I think marriage hurts female applicants because rightly or wrongly, the family and home are still generally seen as her responsiblity to deal with and that distracts from work at the hospital. Plus, she can always get pregnant.

Honestly though, with approximately half of all residents being female these days, it's highly unrealistic (and illegal discrimination) for programs to think they can just not rank any married women. Of course, these perceptions will vary from field to field. It may be a complete non-issue for pediatricians, pathologists, family practioners, radiologists, etc. I'm sure some surgical programs still take this into account though.

But as others have said, what are you really going to do about it? The first thing I've been asked when I've called to schedule interviews so far is "Will you be bringing a spouse with you?" I'm not going to not wear my wedding ring at the interview. If you are married, you don't want to be at a place that frowns on marriage anyway.

I like how you assume that a male resident must be supporting his poor little wife, who would otherwise go hungry. And that his wife must be doing all the houswork, cooking. Perhaps she also has a career herself? Hmmmmm....I for one will not be cooking for and cleaning up after my husband when he's in residency b/c I will be in residency as well.

 

[dc2md]

I agree with pillowhead's comments.
What you guys don't understand is that EVERYTHING is scrutinized in this match interview process. Aren't we all doing things that make us look better than we actually are? Don't we all show off our strong points and hide the negatives? We wear nice tailored suits instead of scrubs. We make sure we're clean shaven instead of the occasional facial hair we may have. Don't you guys think a woman showing up obviously pregnant will have a harder time? Whether consciously or not, the reviewers are gonna think this woman won't have time to handle the intense intern hours and raise a child at the same time. What man or woman is openly going to admit they want to have a child during their intern year? NO ONE. Likewise, if a woman is married she may be viewed as having much more in her life and therefore not able to handle intern hours.
I love that everyone thinks this is such a dumb question to ask and a waste of my time yet all of you are commenting on this dumb question.

 

[pillowhead]

I like how you assume that a male resident must be supporting his poor little wife, who would otherwise go hungry. And that his wife must be doing all the houswork, cooking. Perhaps she also has a career herself? Hmmmmm....I for one will not be cooking for and cleaning up after my husband when he's in residency b/c I will be in residency as well.

Chill out....I'm a married woman who will probably end up making twice what my husband makes. I'm applying to residency right now so obviously I'm a career woman. He's a PhD student so we're a dual high degree couple, too. I'm hardly staying home and cleaning and cooking for my husband on a regular basis.

What I'm trying to point out is how society typically views gender roles with regards to career and home. Ultimately, I believe marriage helps a male and hurts a female when it comes to applying to a high powered career. I'm not advocating and saying that's a great thing (obviously it's not for me or you). I'm saying that's the way it is.

 

[pillowhead]

I agree with pillowhead's comments.
What you guys don't understand is that EVERYTHING is scrutinized in this match interview process. Aren't we all doing things that make us look better than we actually are? Don't we all show off our strong points and hide the negatives? We wear nice tailored suits instead of scrubs. We make sure we're clean shaven instead of the occasional facial hair we may have. Don't you guys think a woman showing up obviously pregnant will have a harder time? Whether consciously or not, the reviewers are gonna think this woman won't have time to handle the intense intern hours and raise a child at the same time. What man or woman is openly going to admit they want to have a child during their intern year? NO ONE. Likewise, if a woman is married she may be viewed as having much more in her life and therefore not able to handle intern hours.
I love that everyone thinks this is such a dumb question to ask and a waste of my time yet all of you are commenting on this dumb question.

I don't think it's a dumb question at all. I just don't think there's much you can do about it. If you're single and say you're married, your program might think it's mighty strange when you show up without a spouse. If you're married and say you're singly, good luck hiding your spouse for the next few years. Ultimately, except for a few surgical holdouts, I don't think it really matters much anymore given the high numbers of married women applying for residency programs.

Being visibly pregnant is an entirely different issue IMHO. Of the two women in my class who got pregnant, one dropped out of medical school and the other has taken a year off. Residency programs would not want their residents doing either of those things and are probably much more likely to discriminate against pregnant women than married women without children.

 

[dc2md]

Pillowhead again is right on the mark. I'm not at all saying people should lie (or that I would lie), just that they need to be aware of how program directors are gonna view different aspects of us...even those things we may not realize. Just food for thought.

 

[sophiejane]

Being visibly pregnant is an entirely different issue IMHO. Of the two women in my class who got pregnant, one dropped out of medical school and the other has taken a year off. Residency programs would not want their residents doing either of those things and are probably much more likely to discriminate against pregnant women than married women without children.

This may be your experience, or maybe it's just that women in TX are a bit more hearty , but between my class and the class above mine, we've had at least 6 births in the 2nd-4th year. One new mom took an anatomy exam the day after giving birth. Another was on her psych rotation until the day she went into labor. I've seen more pregnant interns, residents, and MS4s than I can count. None of them had any problems matching into their specialty of choice or continuing their residency without remediation.

This is not the 1950s. We don't need to continue to promote the stigma against women having families AND careers. It's possible in medical school, residency, and careers.

If you believe that you have been discriminated against because of your sex, family situation, or being pregnant, you have the right to ask questions and get answers, because that type of discrimination is illegal.

 

[raspberry swirl]

my best friend/classmate is "with child" and is due to deliver in december. which means she will be interviewing when she is 8-9 months pregnant. i can't imagine anything more awful ... she's a great person, smart, hardworker, and her husband will be working from home, so she should have lots of support and it should all work out just fine, but still, i can't imagine what some program directors are gonna think when she walks in the room!

 

[pillowhead]

This may be your experience, or maybe it's just that women in TX are a bit more hearty , but between my class and the class above mine, we've had at least 6 births in the 2nd-4th year. One new mom took an anatomy exam the day after giving birth. Another was on her psych rotation until the day she went into labor. I've seen more pregnant interns, residents, and MS4s than I can count. None of them had any problems matching into their specialty of choice or continuing their residency without remediation.

This is not the 1950s. We don't need to continue to promote the stigma against women having families AND careers. It's possible in medical school, residency, and careers.

If you believe that you have been discriminated against because of your sex, family situation, or being pregnant, you have the right to ask questions and get answers, because that type of discrimination is illegal.

Maybe Texas women are just built differently!!

Seriously though, I absolutely one hundred percent agree with you. It's ridiculous there's still a stigma against women wanting families and careers when men have enjoyed both since, well, forever.

But realistically speaking, it's going to be extremely difficult for someone to prove they didn't get a residency position because they were pregnant at the time of the interview when it comes to legal action. Most residency programs, especially academic programs and pretty much anything outside primary care specialties, are competitive and get far more applications than number of spots in their program. If you have average grades and board scores and nothing outstanding on your CV (in other words, you're pretty much like everybody else), how are you going to prove that it was solely your pregnancy that kept you from that position? It's impossible to really know if the reason you got your 3rd ranked position instead of your 1st is because you were pregnant. Interviewers today aren't going to be so stupid as to write anything down to the effect of "couldn't handle residency because of kids." (If they do, then they wholeheartedly deserve that lawsuit.)

Also, even if programs aren't being openly biased, there's still probably some unconscious bias that's going to happen against a visibly pregnant applicant.

I want to make it really clear that I don't support this (there seems to be some underlying tone implying otherwise). I'm not ashamed to use the F word and call myself a feminist. Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique is like my own personal manifesto. But I'm also trying to point out the reality that is medical training for married women and women with children.

 

[tiredmom]

Maybe it's true about Texas... I think we've had at least 9 babies born since second year and I think there's at least 6 walking around visibly pregnant now during 4th year. I think it's specialty dependent too, because one of our faculty teases that there is a quota of a minimum of 1 baby per resident, and if you aren't going to have a baby during the residency, you'd better find another resident to have a 2nd one for you! But, he's also REI and says he can't stand to see all these good fertility years go to waste because of misconceptions about careers! I don't think it's a hindrance to be a married woman... I've been married since partway through undergrad, kids throughout school, and have been told by the department chair that he thought having kids and a marriage make you much better at time management, which is essential for success as a resident.

 

[sophiejane]

my best friend/classmate is "with child" and is due to deliver in december. which means she will be interviewing when she is 8-9 months pregnant. i can't imagine anything more awful ... she's a great person, smart, hardworker, and her husband will be working from home, so she should have lots of support and it should all work out just fine, but still, i can't imagine what some program directors are gonna think when she walks in the room!

I can imagine a lot of things more awful than interviewing at 8 mos pregnant.

I would hope those PDs have more sense than to judge an applicant on the fact that she is pregnant; and if they do, they aren't family friendly and she should pass them by.

 

[sophiejane]

I want to make it really clear that I don't support this (there seems to be some underlying tone implying otherwise). I'm not ashamed to use the F word and call myself a feminist. Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique is like my own personal manifesto. But I'm also trying to point out the reality that is medical training for married women and women with children.

I hear you, and I wasn't implying one thing or another, just stating my own view. I hope your vision of what is realistic is way far off the mark, because if it's not, we haven't gained much ground since Betty, have we?

 

[dynx]

Should a married applicant take off his wedding ring if singles are preferred?

Every little bit of advantage counts.

Working with people who think like this, and in programs that accept them are EXACTLY where I do not want to end up. Let us know where you get accepted.

 

[dynx]

....I for one will not be cooking for and cleaning up after my husband when he's in residency b/c I will be in residency as well.

And you wont have a husband, so that takes care of that.

 

[dynx]

my best friend/classmate is "with child" and is due to deliver in december. which means she will be interviewing when she is 8-9 months pregnant. i can't imagine anything more awful ... she's a great person, smart, hardworker, and her husband will be working from home, so she should have lots of support and it should all work out just fine, but still, i can't imagine what some program directors are gonna think when she walks in the room!

They are gonna think that when she takes her inevitable leave after delivery and they legally MUST let her, the other poor residents are gonna have to take up the slack, and still comply with the 80 hour work week...and hey this other guy who is also "a great person, smart, hardworker" ain't likely to get knocked up soon creating the same problem...hmmmmm. Who would you take?

 

[pillowhead]

And you wont have a husband, so that takes care of that.

well i have a husband and i don't spend my life cleaning and cooking, so i think the previous poster has a chance.

I think what you mean to say is that she won't marry a childish boy who would prefer to marry his mother.

 

[randomedstudent]

And you wont have a husband, so that takes care of that.

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean. I actually think my husband will appreciate me not cooking as I am a lousy cook and he would much rather just order pizza. And he is progressive enough to understand that it is not 100% the woman's responsibility to clean the house. He has been living on his own and taking care of himself for many years now and I think he will be just fine occasionally running the vacuum and doing laundry.

 

[bluebonnet07]

Well, I think that as life is going on everybody will find that it is much harder to find a perfect man/woman than to find a fine place to work. Some people prefer not to have family, and it is OK. I am just not one of them. If a residency program prefer bio robots (asexual creatures that not being capable of bonding with people), that’s OK, but I will not be a happy resident there. I believe that family (a good one) can be a great support system and stress reliever. Not to mention that sometimes it can really save you from big trouble. I have had my rotation with a female intern who was often so exhausted after on call duties that she could not drive home. Her hubby used to pick her up and bring her sleepy body home .

 

[pillowhead]

If a residency program prefer bio robots (asexual creatures that not being capable of bonding with people), that’s OK, but I will not be a happy resident there. .

Ha ha! That's great. The sad thing is there are programs out there who would probably prefer such bio robotic residents. Thankfully, I think those programs are decreasing rather than increasing in number.

 

[dynx]

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean.

Typical

I actually think my husband will appreciate me not cooking as I am a lousy cook and he would much rather just order pizza.

How sad.

And he is progressive enough to understand that it is not 100% the woman's responsibility to clean the house.

Is he going to bear your children as well?

He has been living on his own and taking care of himself for many years now and I think he will be just fine occasionally running the vacuum and doing laundry.

Poor guy. Congrats...you have yourself a wife! Its an awsome find and something I recommend to all up and coming female Docs. Get yourself a male bimbo and have him take care of the kids. Im glad we share the same thought process.
You must understand though, that it makes me sad to see a person of my gender so beaten down...its like seeing a sheep degraded and shorn of its wool for anothers use...its the way things are and you accept them for the logical ramifications...yet if you think about the dignity of the animal/man, it tugs at the heart strings. Or maybe im just a sensitive person.

 

[Doc Oc]

I can imagine a lot of things more awful than interviewing at 8 mos pregnant.

I would hope those PDs have more sense than to judge an applicant on the fact that she is pregnant; and if they do, they aren't family friendly and she should pass them by.

I can't imagine too many more situations that would be worse than this at interview times, LIKELY situations anyway! If she's really that far along, travel is going to be a big issue. She probably won't be able to fly to her interviews, and I'm sure nice long car trips are comfy. Finding a suit will be fun, and holding in all the gas from various locations that seems to come along with pregnancy (ok, TMI!)... anyway, let's not poo-poo the observation that being pregnant as hell and at that bloated walking-animal-wagon stage where you just feel like you're the wheelbarrow toting around that head between your legs isn't going to have a perceptible effect on the interview trail experience of the abovementioned woman!! If I was her, I'd appreciate a little more sympathy/empathy, not being told "Oh well, it could be worse!"

It's possible that the experience won't be difficult, of course anything is possible, proven to me by the comment that someone took her anatomy exam the day after she gave birth I assume she didn't have a c-section...

I give your super pregnant chick that you know HUGE props for taking on the interview trail even though she's a bit more than marginally into the pregnancy, she's much braver than I!!

 

[pillowhead]

Typical

Poor guy. Congrats...you have yourself a wife! Its an awsome find and something I recommend to all up and coming female Docs. Get yourself a male bimbo and have him take care of the kids. Im glad we share the same thought process.

If you believe this is what all wives should be doing or that this is the ideal definition of a wife, then yes, we would all do well to find ourselves wives regardless of our gender or sexual orientation.


Why I Want a Wife by Judy Syfers (1971)

(Editors Note: This classic piece of feminist humor appeared in the premier issue of Ms. Magazine and was widely circulated in the women's movement.)


I belong to that classification of people known as wives. I am A Wife.

And, not altogether incidentally, I am a mother. Not too long ago a male friend of mine appeared on the scene fresh from a recent divorce. He had one child, who is, of course, with his ex-wife. He is looking for another wife. As I thought about him while I was ironing one evening, it suddenly occurred to me that I too, would like to have a wife. Why do I want a wife?

I would like to go back to school so that I can become economically independent, support myself, and if need be, support those dependent upon me. I want a wife who will work and send me to school. And while I am going to school I want a wife to take care of my children. I want a wife a wife to keep track of the children's doctor and dentist appointments. And to keep track of mine, too. I want a wife to make sure my children eat properly and are kept clean. I want a wife who will wash the children's clothes and keep them mended. I want a wife who is a good nurturing attendant to my children, who arranges for their schooling, makes sure that they have an adequate social life with their peers, takes them to the park, the zoo, etc. I want a wife who takes care of the children when they are sick, a wife who arranges to be around when the children need special care, because, of course, I cannot miss classes at school. My wife must arrange to lose time at work and not lose the job. It may mean a small cut in my wife's income from time to time, but I guess I can tolerate that. Needless to say, my wife will arrange and pay for the care of the children while my wife is working.

I want a wife who will take care of my physical needs. I want a wife who will keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended, replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals,serve them pleasantly, and then do the cleaning up while I do my studying. I want a wife who will care for me when I am sick and sympathize with my pain and loss of time from school. I want a wife to go along when our family takes a vacation so that someone can continue care for me and my when I need a rest and change of scene. I want a wife who will not bother me with rambling complaints about a wife's duties. But I want a wife who will listen to me when I feel the need to explain a rather difficult point I have come across in my course of studies. And I want a wife who will type my papers for me when I have written them.

I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who take care of the baby-sitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends. I want a wife who will have arranged that the children are fed and ready for bed before my guests arrive so that the children do not bother us. I want a wife who takes care of the needs of my quests so that they feel comfortable, who makes sure that they have an ashtray, that they are passed the hors d'oeuvres, that they are offered a second helping of the food, that their wine glasses are replenished when necessary, that their coffee is served to them as they like it. And I want a wife who knows that sometimes I need a night out by myself.

I want a wife who is sensitive to my sexual needs, a wife who makes love passionately and eagerly when I feel like it, a wife who makes sure that I am satisfied. And, of course, I want a wife who will not demand sexual attention when I am not in the mood for it. I want a wife who assumes the complete responsibility for birth control, because I do not want more children. I want a wife who will remain sexually faithful to me so that I do not have to clutter up my intellectual life with jealousies. And I want a wife who understands that my sexual needs may entail more than strict adherence to monogamy. I must, after all, be able to relate to people as fully as possible.

If, by chance, I find another person more suitable as a wife than the wife I already have, I want the liberty to replace my present wife with another one. Naturally, I will expect a fresh, new life; my wife will take the children and be solely responsible for them so that I am left free.

When I am through with school and have a job, I want my wife to quit working and remain at home so that my wife can more fully and completely take care of a wife's duties.

My God, who wouldn't want a wife?

 

[dynx]

If you believe this is what all wives should be doing or that this is the ideal definition of a wife, then yes, we would all do well to find ourselves wives regardless of our gender or sexual orientation.

Amen, thats all im saying, most women aren't as enlightened as you.

 

[medstud2006]

Amen, thats all im saying, most women aren't as enlightened as you.

dont marry dynx.

thank you and good night.