M4 thinking strongly about applying to Rad Onc: Why is there so much dissonance between opinions real life and the internet?

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I’ll start by saying I agree with you that salary is comparatively lower than a PP income. That being said, that’s $300k with probably excellent health insurance, matching 401k with good fund options (not an insignificant thing over the course of a career), all the benefits that come from being part of a large institution.

In economics, higher risk=higher reward, and in a satellite job you hand over much of the economic risk to the institution. That reduces a lot of headaches (hiring, managing the practice, what do you do if a therapist calls out sick, many minutiae, marketing, capturing referral chains), but also means comparatively less money compared to PP.

Finally, the job is 30-40 hours per week. I’d venture to say all the “”desirable “ PP jobs in metros involve at least 50-60 hours of work for all but the most senior partners.
Well said. 50-60+ hours sounds about right in a thriving pp environment carrying 25-30+ pts, esp if travelling/cross coverage is required between centers. Plus having to worry about where that next referral is coming from... I see inpatients at 7 am, or 6+ pm at times to keep referrings happy. The 3 A's etc

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I find the elitism comment about the satellite a little ironic. Dude works from 8:00-3:00 and I’m supposed to feel bad he only makes 300K?
We're dripping in irony. I don't know if you're supposed to feel bad, but you do feel bad yourself when you're there ("I hate that place... I wish it would burn down because I despise having to provide vacation coverage"). So I thought that a little telling is all I'm saying. Despise is a strong word; if I had a job where there were parts of it I literally despise I don't know if I would call myself 100% happy. I would imagine it's not lost on the guy who actually is there routinely that people hate coming to where he is. But, he's making 300K. For what another guy is/should be making 600+K. And his colleagues outside his department hate deigning to darken the door of his department. So yes I feel a little bad for the guy, or lady. And bad for you too re: when you have to go there for coverage.
 
a current PGY4 (yes 4) with a contract for $750k near their south east home town to start in 2020.

Huh? I trained and work in the southeast. I work with a lot of residents from the southeast. I've never heard of anything remotely like this. Good for that person and their connections. That is not at all typical.

I haven't heard of anyone even receiving a job offer as a PGY-4 in my entire training and (short) career as an attending. Plenty of people start looking as a PGY-4 or sooner though.

Satellite or small hospital jobs at 40-60 hours a week in varying locations is the norm for those who graduated with jobs. Some people get to live near where they wanted to live, some have to live several hours drive from their family, and others go to a different region entirely. Typical pay is somewhere from $300k-$400k depending on how rural.

Whether those are good jobs or not I'll leave for others to debate.
 
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Huh? I trained and work in the southeast. I work with a lot of residents from the southeast. I've never heard of anything remotely like this. Good for that person and their connections. That is not at all typical.

That was my thought exactly. I trained in the SE as well and have never heard of anything like it. Its the highest offer I have ever personally seen for a new grad in any part of the country. I wouldn't call it typical by any stretch. But its real.
 
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Huh? I trained and work in the southeast. I work with a lot of residents from the southeast. I've never heard of anything remotely like this. Good for that person and their connections. That is not at all typical.

I haven't heard of anyone even receiving a job offer as a PGY-4 in my entire training and (short) career as an attending. Plenty of people start looking as a PGY-4 or sooner though.

Satellite or small hospital jobs at 40-60 hours a week in varying locations is the norm for those who graduated with jobs. Some people get to live near where they wanted to live, some have to live several hours drive from their family, and others go to a different region entirely. Typical pay is somewhere from $300k-$400k depending on how rural.

Whether those are good jobs or not I'll leave for others to debate.
At the southeast's top cancer center they do indeed offer starting salaries of 750K and sign residents up for these salaries no problem. It's the Elvis A. Presley Cancer Institute (he personally approves all the contracts). Their motto is "Don't Be Cruel." Really makes the kids taking the satellite jobs for 300K look like doofuses.
 
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The personal-connection-hometown jobs are real. I know a guy that had a 700k guaranteed hometown job waiting for him. The money is there, it just made sense for the practice -- hometown guy is gonna stay long term, he's a known quantity (the referring docs went to the same high schools), and he's coming from a well-respected program. It was a no-brainer to give him the bank to ensure he'd come. And BTW he's clearing well north of that now as a partner.

If I didn't have spouse constraints, there are some FERTILE areas to make bank that are probably 2h from a major metro area. Probably not the best job for a fresh grad (you'd be solo without much support initially), but for someone 5 years out looking for a change it would be money.

Edit: Do I have a hometown connection job? No. My hometown has been eaten up by an academic center that sends their poor bastards 2h to a satellite 1d a week :oops:. I think that's really the point of Ramses "I wish the place would burn down". When your chair tells you "We need some help at the satellite, you can make the 2 hour trek out there one day a week", you'd wish it would burn down too so you didn't spend 4h in a car every Tuesday
 
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The objective data is decreasing demand and increasing supply. We know both of these things are happening and we know the effect they will have over the course of our careers. This is comparable to CO2 production and heat retention. Like the weather, labor markets are elastic and subject to yearly fluctuations and local variability which means that your anecdotes are irrelevant. We are in exactly the same place we are with climate change: we know the long term trends, we’re starting to see the needle move in a concerning direction that is measurable affecting some people, and we know that we have already committed ourselves to more change even if we correct things now. We also know how to fix the problem, and we know that the people in the position to make the necessary changes are disincentivized from doing so because it directly conflicts with their financial and professional interests. I don’t think it’s an unfair comparison, brother.

Telling people that it’s “still okay” may be true, but it’s disingenuous. The field is in a bad place. The RO-APM will be the accelerant for all of this by incentivizing the widespread adoption of hypofractionation. This is great for patients, but when the effects of that hit, especially if combined with a Trump recession which will cause older docs to delay their retirement, the job market will tank hard, and the following year’s match will make this year look like a bumper crop. As you said, it’s not a matter of if but when. The radonc job market is not the earth; this will play out on a much faster timescale. The math says what it says.

In this analogy, oligmets is Tesla. Yeah it’s cool and new, but it’s not going to move the needle.

Lots of predictions there, mate. At the end of the day, as Trump likes to opine, “we will see”.
 
The personal-connection-hometown jobs are real. I know a guy that had a 700k guaranteed hometown job waiting for him. The money is there, it just made sense for the practice -- hometown guy is gonna stay long term, he's a known quantity (the referring docs went to the same high schools), and he's coming from a well-respected program. It was a no-brainer to give him the bank to ensure he'd come. And BTW he's clearing well north of that now as a partner.

If I didn't have spouse constraints, there are some FERTILE areas to make bank that are probably 2h from a major metro area. Probably not the best job for a fresh grad (you'd be solo without much support initially), but for someone 5 years out looking for a change it would be money.

Edit: Do I have a hometown connection job? No. My hometown has been eaten up by an academic center that sends their poor bastards 2h to a satellite 1d a week :oops:. I think that's really the point of Ramses "I wish the place would burn down". When your chair tells you "We need some help at the satellite, you can make the 2 hour trek out there one day a week", you'd wish it would burn down too so you didn't spend 4h in a car every Tuesday
I can vouch for all of this. The problem is those jobs were hard to find when I was getting out. Imagine how hard they are to find now.

There is no way a new grad is going to get a $3 million+ loan to start a practice in the middle of nowhere, even if the business plan is sound, unfortunately. I think that's where some companies are finding a niche, but the risk is still real, esp when Medicare has been screwing non hospital based freestanding RO for years while ASTRO stood by and watched....



 
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Wow. I don’t know the first thing about you. Which is why I don’t presume to know your point of view. Or get judgey. So let’s try a little exercise here.

In the last 10 years, I have been personally affiliated with 3 programs (2 clearly mid tier, 1 upper mid tier). Between them, they have turned out 6-7 residents per year and I have known 1 that didn’t get a job they were very happy about. The one exception was 6 years ago. That includes a couple folks who were absolute duds on paper. In the last 3 years this includes jobs in Detroit, Boca Raton, San Francisco, Raleigh, and Philly. Not just rural Midwest jobs.

I don’t claim to know all the details but one of our satellites is in a town of 25K and a grand total of 65K in the county. I hate that place. I wish it would burn down because I despise having to provide vacation coverage. Yet they manage to sit at 15-20 on treats and it’s viable enough that even paying someone $300K per year to work 30-40 hours per week it’s viable enough to keep renewing the contract. Many of the posts on this forum suggest that shouldn’t be possible and yet...

I may be in the “ivory tower” of academics but what am I suppose to do? I’ve been in the specialty for almost a decade and have managed to remain almost 100% insulated from the “crashing” job market and none of my personal experiences match the “dire” or “decrepit” state of the field so many of the talking heads on SDN espouse to.

I fully admit the math isn’t good and there are a lot of important issues facing the field. If you look at my prior posts, you will even see my personal experience with a tight job market and what it meant for my wife and her career. But what’s more ignorant, parroting the concerns of people with different experiences online or denying essentially all of my own personal experiences? I could email you countless well-written economic forecasts from expert economists about how Trump was going to tank the economy but...

I think SDN has raised great concerns about issues related to the future of our specialty. But suggesting that the only reasons people question some of the more extreme views are ignorance or denial is, well, presumptive at best and ignorant at worst.
I said two main reasons because they are the main reasons for discordant viewpoints but not the only reasons. Ignorance by the way is not the same as stupid. Ignorance means unaware. I am incredibly ignorant on quantum physics but not a stupid person.

But my overall point still stands. Please explain how you can decrease demand and increase supply and not affect the job market?

I know you acknowledge some job market concerns but medical students deserve to know how personal anecdotes can overcome page one of an economics text book. I do not know any unemployed radiation oncologist either. I know colleagues that have done exceptionally well recently in their job search. I still will never advise anyone to go into this field because my anecdotes do not invalidate economic law.
 
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Please explain how you can decrease demand and increase supply and not affect the job market?

Only a phase III randomized trial can show that doubling residencies in the face of decreasing demand/hypofractionation could affect the job market, just like with parachutes and gravity.... In the meantime, ASTRO just wants us to "choose wisely." But, in all seriousness, today's medical student should expect a 250,000-300,000 career likely a satellite, in some random location.
 
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economic law.

Those words are the crux of it. We agree that the red lights are flashing and there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the future. We just don't agree on the certainty of what is going to happen. I can't keep track of who said what anymore but I have not seen anything yet to suggest that the economics are so bad people won't be able to keep making $300K or so in moderate volume centers for the short or even medium term. I tell all applicants the same thing, the high earning potential is still there for now but you need to be ok with realistically making closer to $300K and not being able to be picky about where you live. If they know that, I personally think that it is an overstatement to say I can't recommend anyone enter the field.

Look, I love SDN, but some of us are trying to have it both ways. Lets stick with the global warming scenario. Its a long-term issue. The data is there and the math is clear. If we don't address the problems we will face an existential threat. Its ignorant for people to say "well we had a cold winter so whats up with your global warming?" Its just as ignorant to say "see all the hurricanes, that's global warming for you." I completely believe that people are having more issues finding jobs that check a lot of boxes than they did 10 years ago but many posters on SDN have taken an extreme view about the CURRENT state of the job market that frankly doesn't match objective reality for the majority of graduating residents.

Our mutual issue is with the failure of leadership to consider the consequences of their past and ongoing actions to the future of our field and our continued livelihood. Places like SDN can be a great catalyst for discussion. But some of the extremist venting makes us too easy to discredit. Is everything on Fox News a lie? Probably not. But I wouldn't know. I can't filter through the obvious partisan BS long enough to find something that might genuinely challenge my thinking. And so continues the cycle of living in a sheltered virtual reality surrounded only by people who say things that I agree with.
 
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I'm a little late to this, but let's try to really minimize comparisons to non-field specific political issues (like Trump economics and global warming/climate change and comparisons to Fox news). This is, IMO, the new-age Godwin's law.
 
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I'll be honest, if the upshot of my training is that I would be making 300k and treating 15 patients per day in some small clinic somewhere, I would probably still go into Rad Onc.

It sucks to know that the earning potential and collegiality used to be much higher, even 5 years ago, but.... cest la vie. As physicians, we should be expected to cede all financial and professional fulfillment.
 
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Those words are the crux of it. We agree that the red lights are flashing and there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the future. We just don't agree on the certainty of what is going to happen. I can't keep track of who said what anymore but I have not seen anything yet to suggest that the economics are so bad people won't be able to keep making $300K or so in moderate volume centers for the short or even medium term. I tell all applicants the same thing, the high earning potential is still there for now but you need to be ok with realistically making closer to $300K and not being able to be picky about where you live. If they know that, I personally think that it is an overstatement to say I can't recommend anyone enter the field.

Look, I love SDN, but some of us are trying to have it both ways. Lets stick with the global warming scenario. Its a long-term issue. The data is there and the math is clear. If we don't address the problems we will face an existential threat. Its ignorant for people to say "well we had a cold winter so whats up with your global warming?" Its just as ignorant to say "see all the hurricanes, that's global warming for you." I completely believe that people are having more issues finding jobs that check a lot of boxes than they did 10 years ago but many posters on SDN have taken an extreme view about the CURRENT state of the job market that frankly doesn't match objective reality for the majority of graduating residents.

Our mutual issue is with the failure of leadership to consider the consequences of their past and ongoing actions to the future of our field and our continued livelihood. Places like SDN can be a great catalyst for discussion. But some of the extremist venting makes us too easy to discredit. Is everything on Fox News a lie? Probably not. But I wouldn't know. I can't filter through the obvious partisan BS long enough to find something that might genuinely challenge my thinking. And so continues the cycle of living in a sheltered virtual reality surrounded only by people who say things that I agree with.

This. By taking extreme views here we make it easy for people in power to just write SDN off as crazy. SDN has done a good job of raising the issue but also needs to convince those in power to act. That happens by convincing reasonable people on the fence outside SDN that there is a problem. Believe it or not but the rad oncs on twitter who many are attacking are just those sort of people.

I think we also need to consider what is a reasonable end goal. As I posted before some are talking like the only acceptable job market is one in which any resident who wants a job in a tier 1 city should be able to have it. That’s totally unrealistic. If you look back at advice given many years ago in SDN you’ll see that the need for geographic flexibility has always been something we told med students.
 
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Those words are the crux of it. We agree that the red lights are flashing and there is a lot of uncertainty regarding the future. We just don't agree on the certainty of what is going to happen. I can't keep track of who said what anymore but I have not seen anything yet to suggest that the economics are so bad people won't be able to keep making $300K or so in moderate volume centers for the short or even medium term. I tell all applicants the same thing, the high earning potential is still there for now but you need to be ok with realistically making closer to $300K and not being able to be picky about where you live. If they know that, I personally think that it is an overstatement to say I can't recommend anyone enter the field.
This is a realistic scenario, but at some point things will be even worse without corrective action when those jobs fill up, and ASTRO leadership, have consistently stated their hands are tied, so if we believe them, there will no action...

Regarding Tier 1 city: that was certainly the case when I graduated. Jobs were available in almost all tier 1 cities, but compensation was less. Thats how it is in almost every other field.
 
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I've said it before here, I think the next recession cycle will be the true stress test for our job market. We are on the crest of a 10 year bull wave. Retirement accounts are fat currently (additionally, we also had the passing of the ACA and mandating of EMR, which undoubtedly drove some to retire earlier than they may have otherwise). Let the market take a 30-40% hit and quite suddenly, I'll bet we have different anecdotes here. Like, actual unemployed radiation oncologists. Note: I can't predict recessions.
 
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Huh? I trained and work in the southeast. I work with a lot of residents from the southeast. I've never heard of anything remotely like this. Good for that person and their connections. That is not at all typical.

I haven't heard of anyone even receiving a job offer as a PGY-4 in my entire training and (short) career as an attending. Plenty of people start looking as a PGY-4 or sooner though.

Satellite or small hospital jobs at 40-60 hours a week in varying locations is the norm for those who graduated with jobs. Some people get to live near where they wanted to live, some have to live several hours drive from their family, and others go to a different region entirely. Typical pay is somewhere from $300k-$400k depending on how rural.

Whether those are good jobs or not I'll leave for others to debate.

I received all of my offers as a PGY-4. All less desirable areas. Salary guarantees were not as high as 750k, but with RVU conversion factor that was offered and average RVUs quoted currently, income would be above 750k for 2 of the offers. Lowest hospital offer I received was 450k, easily negoiated to 550k and some other perks. PP offers were 300k-325k starting. 2 year partnership tracks. Partner income around 650k.

750k salary guarantee is over FMV. Not saying it didn't happen, but hospitals won't go 90% MGMA for a guarantee, even rural.

Hunting for jobs in undesirable markets is a totally, totally different ballgame than what most people who post here are used to from what I can gather.
There are so few people actually willing to do it when the rubber hits the road. And I think these places are selective about who they interview because they can sniff out who actually would thrive in a rural area, and that may be why some people aren't getting interest from them.
 
I posted before but briefly (STEP1 247, STEP2CK 261, P/F system preclinical, all honors for clinical rotations, 5 abstracts- 4 basic from research year at a Top 3 and all in rad onc). I'm doing aways at good but not elite programs. I have spoken to residents at three institutions: my own (low-mid tier rad onc program), my research year program, and my current away.

All of the residents seem to believe that there are some concerns but they are way overblown. Their friends are doing well and getting good jobs. I have no idea what to believe. I am very confused consolidating opinions. I really enjoyed both the research and clinical side of the field. I like the types of people I have worked with. I like all the interaction with people of different specialties. I like the patient populations, from the very wealthy to the very poor because with oncology, both groups seem to quite interested and attentive about their care, barring a few exceptions. I have enjoyed treatment checks and explaining to patients what radiation is and why it will or won't be done for their cancer (of course under supervision of resident or attending). Yeah I am not a fan of all of the minutia that needs to be learned, but at this stage, I have no idea what parts are truly clinically relevant. But that would probably be my biggest complaint. I thought I wouldn't like the anatomy emphasis way back when I first learned about rad onc in M2. But third year really changed that. I really enjoy anatomy correlates with clinical symptoms, especially for CNS tumors.

Am competitive for the types of programs that would shield from some of the job issues that rad onc is facing?

Just an aside, other specialties I can see myself doing: psych, IM to cardio- electrophysio or heme onc.

Also, some strategies I have considered:

1. Applying broadly to rad onc, and then switching to IM after medicine intern year, if I don't get into the type of program I want that supports its residents and has a good track record placing people into jobs

2. Alternatively, only apply to mid and top tier programs known to place people well and then just double apply to IM.


It occurred to me today that there are probably 15 people taking the biology and physics boards for a 3rd time. That's three years spent studying for an exam on basic science. That's three years they could have done another residency. If that doesn't make you think twice, I don't know what does.
 
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It occurred to me today that there are probably 15 people taking the biology and physics boards for a 3rd time. That's three years spent studying for an exam on basic science. That's three years they could have done another residency. If that doesn't make you think twice, I don't know what does.

Imagine that time learning clinical rad onc or like learning to give chemo or doing research. What a monumental waste of time these tests are, so much stress for something that is not that important. If you don’t know some random pathway or cant calculate some bs, you are not going to hurt people in clinic.
 
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It occurred to me today that there are probably 15 people taking the biology and physics boards for a 3rd time. That's three years spent studying for an exam on basic science. That's three years they could have done another residency. If that doesn't make you think twice, I don't know what does.
3rd? Not 2nd?
 
WHY do people still reply to Sphinx as if he/she isn’t purposefully trolling?

Yes, he/she is one of the most prolific posters of extreme opinions and has said really strange things in the past. Might be the one misanthrope on here.
 
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Yes, he/she is one of the most prolific posters of extreme opinions and has said really strange things in the past. Might be the one misanthrope on here.

Misanthrope is the word of the year. Like SABR, or abscopal.
 
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I'm going to be a maverick here and say, dude, you need to complain less, and study more. To whoever is taking radbio/physics for the 3rd time. You think the dermatologist who plans to do Mohs or cash-only cosmetics is complaining that they have to memorize 4000+ skin lesions that are mostly irrelevant to their clinical practice? No, they're killing that board exam!

Radscopal is technically a trademark, not a copyright.
 
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WHY do people still reply to Sphinx as if he/she isn’t purposefully trolling?

At least on this point they are probably correct.... if people were in the small amount to fail Rad Bio two years ago, then failed it again last year, then they're on the 3rd time. The criticism is on real-world applicability of the exam, which outside of very small portions, is essentially none.
 
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At least on this point they are probably correct.... if people were in the small amount to fail Rad Bio two years ago, then failed it again last year, then they're on the 3rd time. The criticism is on real-world applicability of the exam, which outside of very small portions, is essentially none.

In fact, I would argue those that failed either exam 2 years ago (10% ~20 people) likely failed again last year (because apparently the exam was changed). They've been taken on a 3 year ride (presumably by Kachnik and Wallner), and for what?
 
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At least on this point they are probably correct.... if people were in the small amount to fail Rad Bio two years ago, then failed it again last year, then they're on the 3rd time. The criticism is on real-world applicability of the exam, which outside of very small portions, is essentially none.

I have a PhD in classic pharmacology and cancer biology. I was in drug development before med school. I see more value than most in understanding the scientific basis of regularly utilized treatments. I also think that many residents don't know as much about general (non-radiation) oncology as they should. If anyone should be a fan of "harder" rad bio boards its me. And I am not. I can't for the life of me understand why they are doing this. These are minimum competency exams. They are not qualifying exams to become a PhD candidate.

My issue with most conspiracy theories with the ABR is why hasn't this trickled over into the oral exams? All the examiners I know said that they were given the same instructions as in years past and no one noticed any significant change in the number of passes in their sections. I am still hoping that they just wanted to prove a point and this year the pass rate will be closer to normal.

To everyone studying, I have one more prediction you should take seriously. I can almost guarantee this test is going to be hard. I would bet everything I own on it knowing the people involved. The only question is will they pick a reasonable cut point to determine pass or fail. I don't expect anyone to feel good walking out of the exam this year. Count on it. And be prepared to do something fun to take your mind off of it afterwards. I really am sorry to see this happening to everyone. Hopefully last year was an anomaly. If they want to make a hard test fine, but they need to remember the point of boards...MINIMUM COMPETENCY.
 
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The thing that has me confused is, why isn’t anyone talking about physics? There was a whole new study guide made by the ABR for rad bio, a high yield rad bio review session hosted by ASTRO, new recs for books... but last year’s group actually had a lower pass rate for physics compared to rad bio (71% vs 74%).

Ok, back to the thread topic: MS3/4, is this the kind of stuff you want to be worrying about a week before you graduate residency?
 
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I have a PhD in classic pharmacology and cancer biology. I was in drug development before med school. I see more value than most in understanding the scientific basis of regularly utilized treatments. I also think that many residents don't know as much about general (non-radiation) oncology as they should. If anyone should be a fan of "harder" rad bio boards its me. And I am not. I can't for the life of me understand why they are doing this. These are minimum competency exams. They are not qualifying exams to become a PhD candidate.

My issue with most conspiracy theories with the ABR is why hasn't this trickled over into the oral exams? All the examiners I know said that they were given the same instructions as in years past and no one noticed any significant change in the number of passes in their sections. I am still hoping that they just wanted to prove a point and this year the pass rate will be closer to normal.

To everyone studying, I have one more prediction you should take seriously. I can almost guarantee this test is going to be hard. I would bet everything I own on it knowing the people involved. The only question is will they pick a reasonable cut point to determine pass or fail. I don't expect anyone to feel good walking out of the exam this year. Count on it. And be prepared to do something fun to take your mind off of it afterwards. I really am sorry to see this happening to everyone. Hopefully last year was an anomaly. If they want to make a hard test fine, but they need to remember the point of boards...MINIMUM COMPETENCY.
The thing that has me confused is, why isn’t anyone talking about physics? There was a whole new study guide made by the ABR for rad bio, a high yield rad bio review session hosted by ASTRO, new recs for books... but last year’s group actually had a lower pass rate for physics compared to rad bio (71% vs 74%).

Ok, back to the thread topic: MS3/4, is this the kind of stuff you want to be worrying about a week before you graduate residency?
America's Radiation Oncology Graduate Medical Education System:
More Than (0.71 x 0.74=) 53% Of Our Residents Graduate Clinically Competent
™©
 
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Wait so a satisfactory job market is one in which anyone who wants to live in a first tier city will get a job there out of residency? That is totally unrealistic for a small specialty. Even before the residency expansion became an issue a few years ago the advice was always that you have to be geographically flexible in rad onc. It was also known back then that many of the PP jobs in desirable cities went to grads from elite residency programs. None of that has changed.

In many other small fields (uro, ent, ortho, derm, neurosurg, derm etc) you can pretty much pick your city. You may have to sacrifice salary, scope of practice, etc to get the job in your perfect location, but those jobs exist.
 
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I'll be honest, if the upshot of my training is that I would be making 300k and treating 15 patients per day in some small clinic somewhere, I would probably still go into Rad Onc.

It sucks to know that the earning potential and collegiality used to be much higher, even 5 years ago, but.... cest la vie. As physicians, we should be expected to cede all financial and professional fulfillment.

That seems to be the attitude that students and new grads have adopted. It makes me want to rip their faces off but maybe it’s just a coping mechanism because if they ever knew how badly they have been lied to and screwed over they might show up to clinic locked and loaded.
 
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My issue with most conspiracy theories with the ABR is why hasn't this trickled over into the oral exams? All the examiners I know said that they were given the same instructions as in years past and no one noticed any significant change in the number of passes in their sections. I am still hoping that they just wanted to prove a point and this year the pass rate will be closer to normal.

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I heard it from a friend (who, heard it from a friend who....:whistle:) that the major deviation last year with the test was in the makeup of people that validate the questions. The gist of it is that when questions are added to the bank, there is a room of people who validate the questions and give a score to the question relating how easy/hard it is and whether they think it's in the scope that a radiation oncologist should know. Typically there is some low level of year-to-year turnover with that group (e.g. maybe 10% new people per year), but that year apparently it was an abnormally large turnover in the question validation core. So that's why the test changed so much apparently -- because so many new people were making the choice on what topics were appropriate and the level of detail needed to know. Anecdotally, I've heard that last year's test was more biased towards cancer bio than rad bio (?), which may reflect that radiation biology as a research/training field has contracted and there are WAAAAAY more general cancer biologists than radiation biologists.

Now, all that doesn't explain why physics took such a big hit too.
 
That seems to be the attitude that students and new grads have adopted. It makes me want to rip their faces off but maybe it’s just a coping mechanism because if they ever knew how badly they have been lied to and screwed over they might show up to clinic locked and loaded.
The coping mechanism also functions by presuming, like I Am Jack's Complete lack of Surprise, it's all hit rock bottom. "Can't get any worse!" Plot twist: Jack is Tyler Durden!
 
The coping mechanism also functions by presuming, like I Am Jack's Complete lack of Surprise, it's all hit rock bottom. "Can't get any worse!" Plot twist: Jack is Tyler Durden!

Fight club and office space. 20 yrs on and still as relevant as ever. Burning it down seems more appealing everyday. Lol.

Med students and residents are in fact some of the best mental gymnasts out there these days.
 
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That seems to be the attitude that students and new grads have adopted. It makes me want to rip their faces off but maybe it’s just a coping mechanism because if they ever knew how badly they have been lied to and screwed over they might show up to clinic locked and loaded.
I've been in practice less than 10 years and have a job I really like and I make good money in a city I find to be desirable enough.

Still, I feel like my expectations (informed almost solely by my academic department) as a 3rd year med student committing to go all in on rad onc have largely been unmet. I fully expected to be making high 6 figures and to provide a highly in-demand service to patients. The first ASTRO I attended was incredible. Lavish parties everywhere. Industry people bending over backward to get in your good graces. Job hunting residents were being sought out, seemingly by everyone. All the academic types looked happy. The dream-like promises seemed to check out. The reality today... ain't quite that. No regrets whatsoever, but another halving of reality vs expectations would be a tough pill to swallow.
 
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I've been in practice less than 10 years and have a job I really like and I make good money in a city I find to be desirable enough.

Still, I feel like my expectations (informed almost solely by my academic department) as a 3rd year med student committing to go all in on rad onc have largely been unmet. I fully expected to be making high 6 figures and to provide a highly in-demand service to patients. The first ASTRO I attended was incredible. Lavish parties everywhere. Industry people bending over backward to get in your good graces. Job hunting residents were being sought out, seemingly by everyone. All the academic types looked happy. The dream-like promises seemed to check out. The reality today... ain't quite that. No regrets whatsoever, but another halving of reality vs expectations would be a tough pill to swallow.
Cut spots back to 100-110/year (about when things were great as you describe) and we can make RO great again.
 
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Lifestyle and compensation MATTER. They matter because people deserve to be rewarded for how hard they work, but they also matter for patients. If you were a patient, would you rather be treated by someone at the top of their medical school class with a life long passion for cancer care, or a Derm hopeful who SOAPed into radonc after they failed to match?
Or better yet, an fmg with low scores and poor English proficiency. That used to be RO residency material back in the 70s and 80s, the current RO academics are ensuring we go full circle there
 
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I've been in practice less than 10 years and have a job I really like and I make good money in a city I find to be desirable enough.

Still, I feel like my expectations (informed almost solely by my academic department) as a 3rd year med student committing to go all in on rad onc have largely been unmet. I fully expected to be making high 6 figures and to provide a highly in-demand service to patients. The first ASTRO I attended was incredible. Lavish parties everywhere. Industry people bending over backward to get in your good graces. Job hunting residents were being sought out, seemingly by everyone. All the academic types looked happy. The dream-like promises seemed to check out. The reality today... ain't quite that. No regrets whatsoever, but another halving of reality vs expectations would be a tough pill to swallow.

I agree with this right here. There was unrealistic expectations, partially on our side thinking "we are top medical students going into one of the most difficult residencies [at that time] and we will be respected by all our colleagues." Eh wrong! We respect those in our field, but those outside, especially from the old school days do not.

Hear me out though... is it undeserved? In medicine, we are grouped by what we can do.

Do we do inpatient medicine? No
Are we good at managing basic medical problems (CV triage, electrolyte problems, ID stuff, etc)? No
Do we work weekends, night floats, or daily morning rounds? No

What we do is kill cancer with radiation, understand oncology, and run clinical trials. Unfortunately, we have medical oncology, surgical oncology (including ENT, uro, etc.) colleagues who understand oncology and run clinical trials, but they also do inpatient medicine, general medicine, nights, call, weekends, etc.

In the field, we are unique by virtue of what we offer that no one else does. I try to talk med onc trials with some of my colleagues and I expect them to say naively "Oh, wow I'm impressed by your comprehensive knowledge about cancer." When I tell them we have chemo questions on our boards I expected "Wow, that is so impressive." But you know what I got? Some say "Why? We will take care of the chemo." Now that's not my whole experience, I've had other colleagues who appreciate rad oncs breadth of knowledge and I do get direct referrals from pulm (this took about 5 years, weekly lung tumor board, CT screening talks, etc.) but that had to be EARNED not on tests, but with real life interactions. We cannot rest on our med school laurels, we have to show we can produce.

My respect goes to Cliff Robinson doing cardiac ablation (giving new indications for XRT), David Raben (he worked at a drug company for a year and wants rad onc to start giving drugs), Drew Moghanaki (bringing SABR to the lung to the forefront and being a formidable force against surgeons), and of course Weichselbaum and Hellman for coming up with a new paradigm (oligomets).

Long story short: On another post I recommended a 6 year IM/Rad Onc residency.

[Edit: Although it would bring rad onc more respect to have IM certification. I understand that would wreck havoc on current rad oncs by possibly being out competed and more importantly, not sure medicine or society needs rad oncs who can do all that other stuff...]
 
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I agree with this right here. There was unrealistic expectations, partially on our side thinking "we are top medical students going into one of the most difficult residencies [at that time] and we will be respected by all our colleagues." Eh wrong! We respect those in our field, but those outside, especially from the old school days do not.

Hear me out though... is it undeserved? In medicine, we are grouped by what we can do.

Do we do inpatient medicine? No
Are we good at managing basic medical problems (CV triage, electrolyte problems, ID stuff, etc)? No
Do we work weekends, night floats, or daily morning rounds? No

What we do is kill cancer with radiation, understand oncology, and run clinical trials. Unfortunately, we have medical oncology, surgical oncology (including ENT, uro, etc.) colleagues who understand oncology and run clinical trials, but they also do inpatient medicine, general medicine, nights, call, weekends, etc.

In the field, we are unique by virtue of what we offer that no one else does. I try to talk med onc trials with some of my colleagues and I expect them to say naively "Oh, wow I'm impressed by your comprehensive knowledge about cancer." When I tell them we have chemo questions on our boards I expected "Wow, that is so impressive." But you know what I got? Some say "Why? We will take care of the chemo." Now that's not my whole experience, I've had other colleagues who appreciate rad oncs breadth of knowledge and I do get direct referrals from pulm (this took about 5 years, weekly lung tumor board, CT screening talks, etc.) but that had to be EARNED not on tests, but with real life interactions. We cannot rest on our med school laurels, we have to show we can produce.

My respect goes to Cliff Robinson doing cardiac ablation (giving new indications for XRT), David Raben (he worked at a drug company for a year and wants rad onc to start giving drugs), Drew Moghanaki (bringing SABR to the lung to the forefront and being a formidable force against surgeons), and of course Weichselbaum and Hellman for coming up with a new paradigm (oligomets).

Long story short: On another post I recommended a 6 year IM/Rad Onc residency.

[Edit: Although it would bring rad onc more respect to have IM certification. I understand that would wreck havoc on current rad oncs by possibly being out competed and more importantly, not sure medicine or society needs rad oncs who can do all that other stuff...]
Well we know an alternative model versus the "pure radiotherapist" can work. Just look to the UK, for example, where our rad onc GME is a foreign concept to them, as their GME is to us. Look at how rad onc started: radiology residency, and you concentrated on radiation therapy if that's what you wanted to wind up doing.

A dual boarded med onc/rad onc would be a very, very interesting thing. It would require radiation oncologists in power to admit a 4 year radiation oncology residency is unnecessary, as would the IM/Rad Onc thing you mention. "Do we do inpatient medicine? No... Are we good at managing basic medical problems (CV triage, electrolyte problems, ID stuff, etc)? No... Do we work weekends, night floats, or daily morning rounds? No." Might say this about dermatology. But how many dermatologists are using radiation oncologists in their practice? I don't know, but it's a helluva lot more than how many radiation oncologists have brought dermatologists into their practice! The radiation oncologist has a very limited scope and is further limited by being at the very, very end of referral chains. Heck, we must genuflect when we refer to hospice.

Wallner for all his warts at least was sort of/kind of saying "Hey, let's begin to think about thinking differently." He started out his commentary by quoting the Bible, the book of Ruth. Let me quote Isaiah 43: "When you pass through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you." This is a promise the leaders of radiation oncology need to make to the radiation oncologists of today and tomorrow. We can only control our own ship. We can not, like Blanche Dubois, rely on the kindness of strangers. Radiation oncology will have to look out for radiation oncology; no one else will. Now that we're having problems, I am also reminded of what my grandad used to say: 90% of folks don't care, and the other 10% are glad you got 'em.
 
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