Love spine, don't like anything else about ortho.

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

SpikesnSpookes

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
59
Reaction score
10
Hi All,

Trying to figure out my life as 3rd year is coming to an end. Ortho has been one of my top interests, particularly because I really enjoyed spine trauma as well as the spine surgeries that I was exposed to. However, I did not like anything else about ortho (sports, ankle, knee, hip)....especially the minimally invasive procedures like knee scopes... Shoulder cases weren't bad, but I only really like spine-related cases. Given this, would ortho be the right career choice if I only really enjoyed one aspect of it?

Thanks for your help!

Members don't see this ad.
 
Hi All,

Trying to figure out my life as 3rd year is coming to an end. Ortho has been one of my top interests, particularly because I really enjoyed spine trauma as well as the spine surgeries that I was exposed to. However, I did not like anything else about ortho (sports, ankle, knee, hip)....especially the minimally invasive procedures like knee scopes... Shoulder cases weren't bad, but I only really like spine-related cases. Given this, would ortho be the right career choice if I only really enjoyed one aspect of it?

Thanks for your help!
Have you looked into neurosurgery? IMO having interest only in spine would make ortho a bad choice for you
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Sorry, but why neurosurgery and not the ortho route?
The spine to other stuff ratio is higher, resulting in more time for you to do the stuff you like. And it is relatively less competitive
 
Agree, neurosurgery. (more than) half the business is spine. I would probably recommend going to a place where neurosurg takes the spine trauma call if that's what you're into.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Spine sucks, no other way to put it. I dreaded my spine months, especially spine clinic.
What is it that people hate about spine clinic so much? This is like a universal resident sentiment I've heard. I disliked spine because of my limited exposure to some cases I've done, but I feel like everyone loathes clinic. wth happens in spine clinic?
 
What is it that people hate about spine clinic so much? This is like a universal resident sentiment I've heard. I disliked spine because of my limited exposure to some cases I've done, but I feel like everyone loathes clinic. wth happens in spine clinic?

Patients that are chronic pain, often addicted to narcotics, and never get better. It's awful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Yeah as a medical student not exposed to much, I'm also not understanding the despise...
 
Yeah as a medical student not exposed to much, I'm also not understanding the despise...

Let me put it this way, spine is a hard way to make a living if you want gratification. Yeah it pays well, but patients never seem to get better, most of them are very demanding, surgeries are not as successful as other Ortho surgeries, there's a fairly large complication rate - much larger than any other field of Ortho, and most of the time you're working in narrow spaces with very little roam for error - the pucker factor is high.

I personally don't know anyone that loved spine, most people I know that did spine, did it because it's nice money and lifestyle and they are pretty vocal about it. I'm sure there are people out there that did it because they loved it, I just don't know them personally. Also, I'm in a no fault auto insurance state so auto spine cases pay a **** load. Spine guys are exploiting the system big time in my state, not all but I would say half the private guys. That's a debate for another day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yeah as a medical student not exposed to much, I'm also not understanding the despise...

Would you want to be in a clinic where half the exam is tests to determine if the patient is lying to you or not? This is what spine clinic is. It is complicated by the fact that there are many "abnormal" findings on spine MRI that you can see in the general public without any symptoms, so deciding who has a legitimate complaint is challenging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
spine is polarizing for ortho residents, no doubt.

i would argue that if you know you want to do spine, ortho is a better choice than neuro because the vast majority of leaders in the field of spine surgery are orthopaedic spine surgeons. not to say there aren't academic leaders in the neuro circles, but it seems that ortho has them beat (lenke, riew, berven, heller, vacarro, glassman, albert, rhee, garfin, eismont, boden, etc). many (but certainly not all) neurosurgeons view spine as a means of paying the bills to do their more interesting cases. there are definitely exceptions to this rule, no doubt.

orthopods also definitely have a leg up on diagnosing extemity pathology that is often mis-diagnosed as spine pathology (i.e. hip-spine syndrome, shoulder pathology, etc). i cannot tell you how many patients i've seen that have had spine surgery when it was in fact their arthritic hip or rotator cuff that was their problem. Very sad to see.

classically speaking, orthopods also have a leg up on deformity and instrumentation in my opinion as well. my department has neuro and ortho fellows so i can speak with experience on this. certainly, the neurosurgeons can and do catch up, but it is just different. admittedly, my neuro fellows are better with the kerrison in the beginning of the year.

finally, it seems that almost zero neuro spine surgeons know how to take bone graft, which is a skill that any ortho intern should have mastered. consequently, they uniformly claim that patients 'always' complain about their bone graft harvest site, which is extremely rare in my experience. to not have this tool in your armamentarium is a real disadvantage to your patients (i.e. doing C1-2 fusions with a piece of worthless dead bone makes me cringe).

for me, i considered both fields while in medical school and chose orthopaedics knowing that i wanted to spine. i did rotations and research with both departments. after my neurosurgery rotation i was informally offered a spot in their program in a sit down meeting with the chair. ultimately, i found that i fit in much better with the orthopaedic residents and found them to be much happier and well-rounded at my institution and chose ortho and have never looked back. a factor in my decision was that i like spine deformity, which orthopods have much more exposure and experience with during residency. the biggest factor was fit and happiness.

some love spine for the challenge of intellect and skill required to be good at it. if your indications are clean and your skills sharp, you will help people and have a rewarding career. it is a field that has zero tolerance for a lack of attention to detail, which i enjoy.

some shy away from it because of the risk, which is without a doubt more than any other specialty in ortho. also, clinic requires detective work that some people view as too time consuming or mentally taxing. others love this mentally challenging process.

one thing you have to be comfortable with as a spine surgeon is telling people you can't help them (ie chronic low back pain). in my practice, these are a very few minority of patients that end up seeing me. the key point here is having mid-levels that screen patients that could potentially benefit from surgery.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I am a long time reader but registered today after reading this thread. I am an orthopedic surgeon trained outside the US. Where I come from , spine is not yet as advanced surgically as it is in the states. While this might not be true for top echelons of private practice, it is true of the training scene. While I did have a few months of spine exposure during residency [ 4-5] , it was not structured and I think left something to be desired from the surgical skills point of view. I was a year and half out of residency and wanted to move to spine. I decided to pursue a fellowship.

After my rather singular experience, I want a perspective from American ortho residents here. I have two questions:

1. How comfortable are you guys/girls surgically at the start of a spine fellowship?
2. What are the research requirements in a clinical fellowship?

I had an awful experience. I interviewed for an empty spot in a non-accredited spine fellowship. Workload at the place was mainly adult deformities/revisions etc so I cleared during the interview that my surgical experience was limited in spine. I was re-assured. This was an inaugural fellowship with the only fellow before me being an in-folded neuro resident from a top program. Research requirements were six abstracts- at least three peer reviewed publications- for graduation. My comfort level with spine was more or less a picture of that of a usual trainee from my country . Posterior exposure - usually with one bovie, cobb and sequential packings- we rarely have two bovies. But I picked up soon with the one hand suction-one hand bovie way. Occasional lumbar pedicle screws, a couple of lamis and some microdisks assisted. ACDFs are something we assist as a rule , do a few if you are lucky. Posterior cervicals are usually decomp cases with lateral mass screws- mainly assisted. C1-2 is usually domain of neurosurgeons at most of our institutes. Also, operative microscope is not always available and things are usually done with loupes or in case of open cases,just without them. Adult deformity is rare. I assisted a couple of cases of AIS at most. Drills were not commonly used at my place. So my goals were to learn proper decompression, microdisks , pedicle screws -esp. in thoracic spine- and TLIF. I was also excited to learn things I had never seen such as XLIFs and ALIFs.

Things started going south as it took me some time to get used to the suction-bovie approach. A T10-pelvis with muliple previous lamis etc. [ a usual case in the practice] were expected to be exposed in 20-25 mins , pedicles found and cannulated by the time attending arrived. I increased the speed but this was something which just would take more time for me to arrive at. I was told on my first evaluation at one and a half month that my skills were at level of a first year ortho resident in uncle sam. I was shell-shocked as I received complements from the same attending/director initially. This went on and I was subsequently informed that teaching proper decompression/microdisks, proper drill/scope usage etc was not something they had time to teach in a fellowship. ACDFs were expected to be exposed-retractors in place. I was usually very good at clinical examination and communication so even they couldn't find much to complain about. All these was deemed in the first 3 months of fellowship. This was more or less the usual tone of my feedback regularly. I did chart extraction for an existing project and added around 150 cases to a dataset with more than 100 variables. Did stats and wrote introduction etc. but the need was to come up with at least 3-5 project proposals independently. I wanted someone to look at my work, help me correct and edit things but their expectation was an independent research effort through the manuscript stage. Research department consisted of a PhD who would be busy with work for multiple attendings, so the research had to be done more-or-less independently. I was constantly reminded of my inferior research effort compared to the previous guy. He was a great guy and unusually research oriented and published multiple articles. I tried but the pressure got the better of me. I just couldn't balance my need to learn surgery with the research and requirements. I wanted to get out but I had no option as I left all my options in my homeland to pursue this. Plus I was on a visa so I just couldn't go out and get something. Ultimately, one day I was told we were parting ways. I had the honour primarily for being inadequate at research and also as they had no time to improve my rather primitive skills. My 'passion' for spine surgery was put in doubt. The ordeal was over in 4 months. The way it went, I was relieved to be free of the constant comparisons and dressing downs but it left me shattered.

I have blamed and loathed myself for what happened. Maybe I was wrong in presuming that my learning requirements echoed the usual? Why was this the case with me while other guys were having a great time at their fellowships? May be I deserved it. What happened is the past but my experience has ignited in me a need to know where I stand. Maybe I could get some salvation from the answers I get here.
 
Hello. I didn't get it. Did you join this fellowship in USA? And what happened? If it was non accredited were you allowed to scrub?
I am a long time reader but registered today after reading this thread. I am an orthopedic surgeon trained outside the US. Where I come from , spine is not yet as advanced surgically as it is in the states. While this might not be true for top echelons of private practice, it is true of the training scene. While I did have a few months of spine exposure during residency [ 4-5] , it was not structured and I think left something to be desired from the surgical skills point of view. I was a year and half out of residency and wanted to move to spine. I decided to pursue a fellowship.

After my rather singular experience, I want a perspective from American ortho residents here. I have two questions:

1. How comfortable are you guys/girls surgically at the start of a spine fellowship?
2. What are the research requirements in a clinical fellowship?

I had an awful experience. I interviewed for an empty spot in a non-accredited spine fellowship. Workload at the place was mainly adult deformities/revisions etc so I cleared during the interview that my surgical experience was limited in spine. I was re-assured. This was an inaugural fellowship with the only fellow before me being an in-folded neuro resident from a top program. Research requirements were six abstracts- at least three peer reviewed publications- for graduation. My comfort level with spine was more or less a picture of that of a usual trainee from my country . Posterior exposure - usually with one bovie, cobb and sequential packings- we rarely have two bovies. But I picked up soon with the one hand suction-one hand bovie way. Occasional lumbar pedicle screws, a couple of lamis and some microdisks assisted. ACDFs are something we assist as a rule , do a few if you are lucky. Posterior cervicals are usually decomp cases with lateral mass screws- mainly assisted. C1-2 is usually domain of neurosurgeons at most of our institutes. Also, operative microscope is not always available and things are usually done with loupes or in case of open cases,just without them. Adult deformity is rare. I assisted a couple of cases of AIS at most. Drills were not commonly used at my place. So my goals were to learn proper decompression, microdisks , pedicle screws -esp. in thoracic spine- and TLIF. I was also excited to learn things I had never seen such as XLIFs and ALIFs.

Things started going south as it took me some time to get used to the suction-bovie approach. A T10-pelvis with muliple previous lamis etc. [ a usual case in the practice] were expected to be exposed in 20-25 mins , pedicles found and cannulated by the time attending arrived. I increased the speed but this was something which just would take more time for me to arrive at. I was told on my first evaluation at one and a half month that my skills were at level of a first year ortho resident in uncle sam. I was shell-shocked as I received complements from the same attending/director initially. This went on and I was subsequently informed that teaching proper decompression/microdisks, proper drill/scope usage etc was not something they had time to teach in a fellowship. ACDFs were expected to be exposed-retractors in place. I was usually very good at clinical examination and communication so even they couldn't find much to complain about. All these was deemed in the first 3 months of fellowship. This was more or less the usual tone of my feedback regularly. I did chart extraction for an existing project and added around 150 cases to a dataset with more than 100 variables. Did stats and wrote introduction etc. but the need was to come up with at least 3-5 project proposals independently. I wanted someone to look at my work, help me correct and edit things but their expectation was an independent research effort through the manuscript stage. Research department consisted of a PhD who would be busy with work for multiple attendings, so the research had to be done more-or-less independently. I was constantly reminded of my inferior research effort compared to the previous guy. He was a great guy and unusually research oriented and published multiple articles. I tried but the pressure got the better of me. I just couldn't balance my need to learn surgery with the research and requirements. I wanted to get out but I had no option as I left all my options in my homeland to pursue this. Plus I was on a visa so I just couldn't go out and get something. Ultimately, one day I was told we were parting ways. I had the honour primarily for being inadequate at research and also as they had no time to improve my rather primitive skills. My 'passion' for spine surgery was put in doubt. The ordeal was over in 4 months. The way it went, I was relieved to be free of the constant comparisons and dressing downs but it left me shattered.

I have blamed and loathed myself for what happened. Maybe I was wrong in presuming that my learning requirements echoed the usual? Why was this the case with me while other guys were having a great time at their fellowships? May be I deserved it. What happened is the past but my experience has ignited in me a need to know where I stand. Maybe I could get some salvation from the answers I get here.
Hello.
I am a long time reader but registered today after reading this thread. I am an orthopedic surgeon trained outside the US. Where I come from , spine is not yet as advanced surgically as it is in the states. While this might not be true for top echelons of private practice, it is true of the training scene. While I did have a few months of spine exposure during residency [ 4-5] , it was not structured and I think left something to be desired from the surgical skills point of view. I was a year and half out of residency and wanted to move to spine. I decided to pursue a fellowship.

After my rather singular experience, I want a perspective from American ortho residents here. I have two questions:

1. How comfortable are you guys/girls surgically at the start of a spine fellowship?
2. What are the research requirements in a clinical fellowship?

I had an awful experience. I interviewed for an empty spot in a non-accredited spine fellowship. Workload at the place was mainly adult deformities/revisions etc so I cleared during the interview that my surgical experience was limited in spine. I was re-assured. This was an inaugural fellowship with the only fellow before me being an in-folded neuro resident from a top program. Research requirements were six abstracts- at least three peer reviewed publications- for graduation. My comfort level with spine was more or less a picture of that of a usual trainee from my country . Posterior exposure - usually with one bovie, cobb and sequential packings- we rarely have two bovies. But I picked up soon with the one hand suction-one hand bovie way. Occasional lumbar pedicle screws, a couple of lamis and some microdisks assisted. ACDFs are something we assist as a rule , do a few if you are lucky. Posterior cervicals are usually decomp cases with lateral mass screws- mainly assisted. C1-2 is usually domain of neurosurgeons at most of our institutes. Also, operative microscope is not always available and things are usually done with loupes or in case of open cases,just without them. Adult deformity is rare. I assisted a couple of cases of AIS at most. Drills were not commonly used at my place. So my goals were to learn proper decompression, microdisks , pedicle screws -esp. in thoracic spine- and TLIF. I was also excited to learn things I had never seen such as XLIFs and ALIFs.

Things started going south as it took me some time to get used to the suction-bovie approach. A T10-pelvis with muliple previous lamis etc. [ a usual case in the practice] were expected to be exposed in 20-25 mins , pedicles found and cannulated by the time attending arrived. I increased the speed but this was something which just would take more time for me to arrive at. I was told on my first evaluation at one and a half month that my skills were at level of a first year ortho resident in uncle sam. I was shell-shocked as I received complements from the same attending/director initially. This went on and I was subsequently informed that teaching proper decompression/microdisks, proper drill/scope usage etc was not something they had time to teach in a fellowship. ACDFs were expected to be exposed-retractors in place. I was usually very good at clinical examination and communication so even they couldn't find much to complain about. All these was deemed in the first 3 months of fellowship. This was more or less the usual tone of my feedback regularly. I did chart extraction for an existing project and added around 150 cases to a dataset with more than 100 variables. Did stats and wrote introduction etc. but the need was to come up with at least 3-5 project proposals independently. I wanted someone to look at my work, help me correct and edit things but their expectation was an independent research effort through the manuscript stage. Research department consisted of a PhD who would be busy with work for multiple attendings, so the research had to be done more-or-less independently. I was constantly reminded of my inferior research effort compared to the previous guy. He was a great guy and unusually research oriented and published multiple articles. I tried but the pressure got the better of me. I just couldn't balance my need to learn surgery with the research and requirements. I wanted to get out but I had no option as I left all my options in my homeland to pursue this. Plus I was on a visa so I just couldn't go out and get something. Ultimately, one day I was told we were parting ways. I had the honour primarily for being inadequate at research and also as they had no time to improve my rather primitive skills. My 'passion' for spine surgery was put in doubt. The ordeal was over in 4 months. The way it went, I was relieved to be free of the constant comparisons and dressing downs but it left me shattered.

I have blamed and loathed myself for what happened. Maybe I was wrong in presuming that my learning requirements echoed the usual? Why was this the case with me while other guys were having a great time at their fellowships? May be I deserved it. What happened is the past but my experience has ignited in me a need to know where I stand. Maybe I could get some salvation from the answers I get here.
 
Top