Lost my job and can't move . . . now what?

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JumpingShip

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Title kind of says it all. I'm a 46 year old man with three kids who has been in private practice for over 15 years and I love my job and this community, unless everybody has been lying to me for all these years I'm well liked and respected, but my practice was bought out not that long ago by a juggernaut academic center (I'm not sure if my "boss" is the 75 year old chair I've met once and had 2-3 zoom calls with or one of the people I've never met with an MBA who emails me from time to time about RVU's and "metrics") and now my options are either quit or agree to terms I simply cannot accept. I am very sure that the offer is purposely ridiculous so they know I won't take it and a fresh young PGY-5 replacement has already been assigned to replace me.

Anyway, my wife is from here, this is the only home my children have ever known, and we are juggling multiple elderly parents so I cannot move. What are my options?
Please provide any productive advice that you may have. I'm in an unbelievably desperate situation and would appreciate constructive advise or "silent prayers" and don't want this to turn into a "see the job market is terrible . . . look at this poor guy" thread as I'm well aware of that and it doesn't help. Please note that I am well into my 40's with a lot of responsibilities so I definitely can't go back and do another residency and it's been over 20 years since my intern year so I can't even work in an urgent care next to a 28 year old PA/NP (unless they were supervising me!)

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Title kind of says it all. I'm a 46 year old man with three kids who has been in private practice for over 15 years and I love my job and this community, unless everybody has been lying to me for all these years I'm well liked and respected, but my practice was bought out not that long ago by a juggernaut academic center (I'm not sure if my "boss" is the 75 year old chair I've met once and had 2-3 zoom calls with or one of the people I've never met with an MBA who emails me from time to time about RVU's and "metrics") and now my options are either quit or agree to terms I simply cannot accept. I am very sure that the offer is purposely ridiculous so they know I won't take it and a fresh young PGY-5 replacement has already been assigned to replace me.

Anyway, my wife is from here, this is the only home my children have ever known, and we are juggling multiple elderly parents so I cannot move. What are my options?
Please provide any productive advice that you may have. I'm in an unbelievably desperate situation and would appreciate constructive advise or "silent prayers" and don't want this to turn into a "see the job market is terrible . . . look at this poor guy" thread as I'm well aware of that and it doesn't help. Please note that I am well into my 40's with a lot of responsibilities so I definitely can't go back and do another residency and it's been over 20 years since my intern year so I can't even work in an urgent care next to a 28 year old PA/NP (unless they were supervising me!)
Impossible situation. If you have the support/financial resources, build your own competing free-standing center (get some other docs to co-invest) or get the local hospital in town to build a competing rad onc facility and jump ship (I've seen both done, but of course, incredibly difficult and high risk).

In the meantime, accept what they offer without a non-compete.

I understand much easier said than done
 
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Recalibrate your expectations. Accept the terms. Begin a process of getting out and finding what will make you happy. In the meantime, smile and say thank you. This is the best immediate advice.
 
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I'm sorry this happened to you.

To echo @TheWallnerus - by "lost your job" you mean the salary and benefit terms of your previous arrangement, but you have been made an offer to stay in the same place working the same job, but for different (presumably less) salary and benefits?

The answer is obvious, if painful. Accept the new terms for now. If it is truly unsustainable in the long run, then begin to look elsewhere. But look elsewhere from a position of strength...which is being employed, even if it's not what it once was.

The consolidation of formerly private practice jobs into the Academic Medical Center borg marches on.
 
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Is it possible to describe how the terms have changed without doxxing yourself?
I have seen this play out several times and the doc really doesn’t have much choice other than to accept the offer and look elsewhere.This is why I am on SDN.
 
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I have seen this play out several times and the doc really doesn’t have much choice other than to accept the offer and look elsewhere.This is why I am on SDN.
At this point, it's more a question of "when", not "if", all Radiation Oncologists in America will be employed by an academic medical center, Genesis, or US Oncology.
 
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Sure. I'm just interested in sort of quantifying how things change with this process.
Broadly both involved a decrease in salary by 150-200k and one involved also signing a non compete. The non compete was truly ugly and unamerican, signed with effectively a gun to the head of a physician who had been established in the community for over a decade. Basically gangsterism under the circumstances.
 
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One option is to let kids stay in their home and get a job elsewhere. you’ll see them on the weekends.

Medstudents - read these posts
 
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Broadly both involved a decrease in salary by 150-200k and one involved also signing a non compete. The non compete was truly ugly and unamerican, signed with effectively a gun to the head of a physician who had been established in the community for over a decade. Basically gangsterism under the circumstances.
In my area these offers involve compensation going down from 800K to 425K
 
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In my area these offers involve compensation going down from 800K to 425K
Yeah I think it's important to put these numbers out there so medical students are making informed decisions.

In the "old school" model of private practice Radiation Oncology, a community doc agrees to practice medicine as an independent contractor using machines and staff the hospital pays the overhead on. This is a "professional services contract", or "pro fees". The doctor is not an employee of the hospital.

When practices are "sold" in the way the original post describes, it's often because the founder(s) of the practice are retiring, or the hospital made the founder(s) a lucrative offer.

In physical space/reality, nothing changes. Same staff, same building, same machines. But now the Radiation Oncologist is an employee of the hospital, not an independent contractor.

At the time I'm writing this post, "busy" private practice doctors on professional fee contracts make $650k-$800k. A common hospital employed salary seems to be $500k-$550k.

The common ceiling I've heard for "regular" academic jobs is around $450k.

My immediate thought reading this situation was exactly what @seper said. I imagine the original poster was presented with a 50% salary cut and asked to do the exact same amount of work, if not more. There's really nothing to be done, either. You don't have leverage against an academic medical center. Your only leverage is to walk away.

In RadOnc, walking away usually means a significant geographic relocation, especially if you have a non-compete clause in your contract. Contrary to popular belief, non-competes CAN be enforced, I have personally seen it happen.

There's really no recourse if the original poster wants to continue living in that area and practice clinical Radiation Oncology except take the offered deal.
 
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I just want to say that I am sorry you are dealing with this. I know way too many people that this has happened to
 
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Potentially, if you are VERY well established in the local community, you can set up shop independently. But, it’s financially risky. Having absolutely NO relevant experience with this, I’d call up my local buddies in town (urologists, medical oncologists, oncologic surgeons) and tease out if they’re similarly disgruntled. I’d also call up US Oncology, Genesis, or OneOncology, saying I had a newfound interest in their practice management services, as well as look at lease and equipment costs. Finally, if allowed based on any prior contracts, I’d call up all current and former patients and ask if they’d like to keep seeing me. If things looked promising, I’d talk to my staff and see if they had any interest in building a new radiotherapy center with me. It’s risky but if I had 15 years of savings and a deep attachment to my location, I’d rather fight than yield to what sounds like an ugly foreign occupier.
 
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Is it possible to describe how the terms have changed without doxxing yourself?
Have seen this happen with many of the recent practices in FL after Cleveland clinic bought out the associated hospitals. I believe it happened at UPMC as well when they took over a bunch of hospitals
 
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Potentially, if you are VERY well established in the local community, you can set up shop independently. But, it’s financially risky. Having absolutely NO relevant experience with this, I’d call up my local buddies in town (urologists, medical oncologists, oncologic surgeons) and tease out if they’re similarly disgruntled. I’d also call up US Oncology, Genesis, or OneOncology, saying I had a newfound interest in their practice management services, as well as look at lease and equipment costs. Finally, if allowed based on any prior contracts, I’d call up all current and former patients and ask if they’d like to keep seeing me. If things looked promising, I’d talk to my staff and see if they had any interest in building a new radiotherapy center with me. It’s risky but if I had 15 years of savings and a deep attachment to my location, I’d rather fight than yield to what sounds like an ugly foreign occupier.
Btw There are a lot of con states, where it is all but impossible now to build a center if the hospital objects.
 
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Couple ideas:

1) Are you familiar with the FIRE movement? Check out white coat investor and physician on fire.
2) Honestly, work wise, your only option is to move. If truly not an option, you need to optimize your finanaces to live on whatever salary they are giving you

General ideas: Sell your house, move to a smaller house. Sell any cars with car payments, buy cars in cash with whats left over. Switch your cell phones to an MVNO. Cancel country club subscriptions. If you live like a family who makes 100k, then your 400k salary will feel large. Look up white coat investor, physician on fire, mr money mustache, etc. etc.

Medicine ideas: Palliative care/hospice medicine is a good back up option, we essentially do this anyway, just brush up on your opioid conversion charts. Any cities you could commute to within an hours? Could take a long commute job instead (this would be terrible.) Does the new academic job have any silver linings? Maybe a 457 you didn't have before? Maybe tuition assistance for the kids?

Sorry its a stream of conscious, terrible situation, hopefully something at least helps a little!
 
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Recalibrate your expectations. Accept the terms. Begin a process of getting out and finding what will make you happy. In the meantime, smile and say thank you. This is the best immediate advice.
I actually agree that this is by far the best advise, but trust me this is what I have been doing for several years. I did recalibrate my expectations, I did accept the terms, and I did begin the process of getting out but there is LITERALLY NO WHERE TO GO so I smiled and said thank you but at this point I'm out one way or another.

What everybody needs to understand is that when these things happen it's not like there is some arrogant radiation oncologist making $750,000 working four days week with 12 weeks vacation who sells his practice for millions, then the new "boss" says "hey, I'm cutting your salary by 2% and expect you to work 5% more" over the coming years, and then spoiled doctor says "that's unacceptable, I'm out of here!"

The process unfolds over 2-3 maybe even 5 years where every 6 months "adjustments are made to metrics to reflect the current situation and future outlooks" and we accept them, but after a year or two of that it becomes increasingly clear that the system is set up in a way to fail or at least be unattainable (which justifies the next decrease). Of course I'm not going to pretend like everything was perfect or that I didn't realize that tough times were ahead and adjustments/sacrifices needed to be made, but rather than doing so in the best interest of all as I would have, they use that as an excuse to make changes only in their best interest.

At some point it doesn't even matter anymore, they now know that not only do I have no place else to go but they have what seems like an endless annual supply of graduates. Furthermore, it seems like they now realize that their own graduates don't have a place to go so they get a "two for one" by replacing with me with somebody for far less AND "finding a job" for their resident so they can say "see our residents have no problems finding jobs, in fact they love this department and my leadership so much that instead of going anywhere in the country they chose to stay right here and work for me (in our satellite 80 miles away that a few years ago was a private practice that was doing just fine without us). The craziest thing is my job is literally being split between 1.5-2 people. I have no idea why other than to allow for "greater flexibility for coverage within our satellite offices." Maybe also to make it seems like all of there graduates are employed, when in reality they just took my job and made it into two (and probably somehow cut the pay into thirds and funneled 1/3 back to the guys who hang out all day at the mother ship).
 
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I actually agree that this is by far the best advise, but trust me this is what I have been doing for several years. I did recalibrate my expectations, I did accept the terms, and I did begin the process of getting out but there is LITERALLY NO WHERE TO GO so I smiled and said thank you but at this point I'm out one way or another.

What everybody needs to understand is that when these things happen it's not like there is some arrogant radiation oncologist making $750,000 working four days week with 12 weeks vacation who sells his practice for millions, then the new "boss" says "hey, I'm cutting your salary by 2% and expect you to work 5% more" over the coming years, and then spoiled doctor says "that's unacceptable, I'm out of here!"

The process unfolds over 2-3 maybe even 5 years where every 6 months "adjustments are made to metrics to reflect the current situation and future outlooks" and we accept them, but after a year or two of that it becomes increasingly clear that the system is set up in a way to fail or at least be unattainable (which justifies the next decrease). Of course I'm not going to pretend like everything was perfect or that I didn't realize that tough times were ahead and adjustments/sacrifices needed to be made, but rather than doing so in the best interest of all as I would have, they use that as an excuse to make changes only in their best interest.

At some point it doesn't even matter anymore, they now know that not only do I have no place else to go but they have what seems like an endless annual supply of graduates. Furthermore, it seems like they now realize that their own graduates don't have a place to go so they get a "two for one" by replacing with me with somebody for far less AND "finding a job" for their resident so they can say "see our residents have no problems finding jobs, in fact they love this department and my leadership so much that instead of going anywhere in the country they chose to stay right here and work for me (in our satellite 80 miles away that a few years ago was a private practice that was doing just fine without us). The craziest thing is my job is literally being split between 1.5-2 people. I have no idea why other than to allow for "greater flexibility for coverage within our satellite offices." Maybe also to make it seems like all of there graduates are employed, when in reality they just took my job and made it into two (and probably somehow cut the pay into thirds and funneled 1/3 back to the guys who hang out all day at the mother ship).
exactly situation i have heard about. Typical prof services docs in desirable metro take in 5-650. Academic centers come in and split job into 2 with base in 3s and incentives into 4s for the established doc, and less for new grads. By keeping the docs “hungry”, probably over treat several pts a month for whom a “full time” doc would have ommitted/sent to hospice/given single fract.
 
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Broadly both involved a decrease in salary by 150-200k and one involved also signing a non compete. The non compete was truly ugly and unamerican, signed with effectively a gun to the head of a physician who had been established in the community for over a decade. Basically gangsterism under the circumstances.

Essentially this but on top of the huge decrease in salary it is attached to a productivity metric. Basically every year they don't necessarily decrease the compensation, at least on paper, but they attached it to an RVU base that is barely then in no way achievable:

Here is how it went:

0. Practice acquired. Academic center pretends to come in to heroically save a center run by incompetent's hillbilly MD's and provide care to the underserved. Oh yeah, they provide such better care that they need to charge not 2-5% but a crazy amount more for the same services. Keep in mind that the care is literally provided the same person (me) I guess my plans and everything using the same software on the same machine QA'd by the same physicist and administered by the same therapists got so much better after we put a sign up stating our affiliation with an academic center 1.5 hours away.

1. Barely met metrics so no bonus just base salary. Base salary drops (actual drop not even held steady to let inflation decrease it) and RVU's are actually increased because "this place is losing money paying your salary last year . . . you need to work harder this year to make up for it". Everybody knows that if anything else RVU's are going to drop more next year.

2. No surprise, RVU not met so salary drops further but this time double digit percentile. RVU requirement rises even more. Everybody know that this is the only site in the area so it's not like I am losing "business" to competitors because I'm lazy, no matter how hard I work the patients, fractions, RVU's etc simply don't exist.

2.5 Mid-year salary decrease due to "analysis of the true impact that covid had on us over the past few years"

3. Same as after year 2 but now everybody is made aware that Dr. Smith, a PGY-5 at the academic center 1.5 hours away is graduating next year and his wife is in training or a specialist or somebody who the mother ship is looking to recruit for next year.

3.5 Salary dropped further for any random insane reason like literally the war in Ukraine. Oh by the way Dr. Smith's wife did indeed sign a contract at the mother ship starting in six months. He really needs to stay in the area and is young and desperate, wink wink, I'm sure he'd accept far lower terms than this ...

4 This is where I am now.

Everybody needs to understand that this is a multi-year process and throughout this entire time (ok maybe not year 0-1 but absolutely before the end of 2) I was trying to figure out what to do because it was so clear. The best advise or plan I could come up with is "consulting" but one has to realize that there are actually a ton of people (who are much younger, better with social media, and good looking than me) with MD's who never practiced and even those who were in primary care or other specialties. Who is going to hire a balding white middle aged radiation oncologist to write medical articles or even promote a product or website/services and why would even an oncology pharmaceutical company hire me vs a medical oncologist. It's not like thousands of these types of jobs exist.

I am an exceptional radiation oncologist but I literally can't do anything else, not even in medicine, and not even in oncology. I have come to the conclusion that I need to literally leave my children and get a job someplace else and see them on the weekends and holidays. Now the question is where is this job and is the same thing just going to happen again?

Happy F'n Father's day...
 
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exactly situation i have heard about. Typical prof services docs in desirable metro take in 5-650. Academic centers come in and split job into 2 with base in 3s and incentives into 4s for the established doc, and less for new grads. By keeping the docs “hungry”, probably over treat several pts a month for whom a “full time” doc would have ommitted/sent to hospice/given single fract.
It's so, so hard not to harbor animosity towards the guys coming in to literally take my job, but I'm certain they're actually being lied to, heartbreakingly enough by their own "mentors" who tell them "don't worry this is just temporary", you'll get a "protected day" to keep working and advancing your academic career, or "I'm sure within a year or two something will open up at the mother ship . . . you were such a productive resident we can't wait for you to come back!" and they're almost led to believe that the chair or whomever is actually doing THEM a favor by "at least finding something close by so you can be near your family"

My goodness if this is what it's like to be my age with student loans paid off years ago, children who are much older and a decade of solid income and at least during these past 3-5 years it wasn't "that bad" and I quickly figured out I needed to save as much as possible and prepare. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a 30-35 years old graduating with huge loans, babies/little kids and a family, and of course the stress of starting to work . . . I remember how stressful those first few years were and I didn't have to deal with any this extra anxiety! I'm so sorry for all of us but especially the new graduates...

I want to make it clear though that I am no expert on this matter and this is just my n=1 experience. I really hope this is not how it is everywhere or even in most places. I originally came on here seeking advice but expecting everybody to tell me what I already tried but at least it's been confirmed. I just wanted to provide as much detail as possible about my experience to help others.

I don't go on forums or use social media for anything other than looking at pictures of my out of state family and their kids and it is honestly very uncomfortable for me to put this all out there or even be on this site
 
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This is a really ****ty situation, and I can't even imagine the stress and frustration you are experiencing. As a total outsider to your situation, I just wanted to flesh out one other non-traditional option that haven't been raised (and I'm not saying they are superior to the ones previously laid out by any means).

Retraining sucks ass, but it doesn't have to be a full residency either. Getting into the med onc game has been brandied about, and there seems to be no established pathwasy to board certified rad oncs regularly prescribing/managing systemic therapy. However, I think some neuro onc fellowships do allow rad oncs to apply/do their training. Conceivably after a 1-2 year stint there you could leverage your rad onc CNS experience and then sit on the other side of the table managing the TMZ, etc. Don't know how feasible that would be in your local/community system, but it provides a route where you could be training away from your family for a temporary period of time, and then return to oncology clinical practice locally. Ideally a maneuver like this is backed by a practice locally already agreeing to have you after such training so there is no uncertainty after.

An unenviable situation for a mid-career professional. All the best to you & your family.
 
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I actually agree that this is by far the best advise, but trust me this is what I have been doing for several years. I did recalibrate my expectations, I did accept the terms, and I did begin the process of getting out but there is LITERALLY NO WHERE TO GO so I smiled and said thank you but at this point I'm out one way or another.

What everybody needs to understand is that when these things happen it's not like there is some arrogant radiation oncologist making $750,000 working four days week with 12 weeks vacation who sells his practice for millions, then the new "boss" says "hey, I'm cutting your salary by 2% and expect you to work 5% more" over the coming years, and then spoiled doctor says "that's unacceptable, I'm out of here!"

The process unfolds over 2-3 maybe even 5 years where every 6 months "adjustments are made to metrics to reflect the current situation and future outlooks" and we accept them, but after a year or two of that it becomes increasingly clear that the system is set up in a way to fail or at least be unattainable (which justifies the next decrease). Of course I'm not going to pretend like everything was perfect or that I didn't realize that tough times were ahead and adjustments/sacrifices needed to be made, but rather than doing so in the best interest of all as I would have, they use that as an excuse to make changes only in their best interest.

At some point it doesn't even matter anymore, they now know that not only do I have no place else to go but they have what seems like an endless annual supply of graduates. Furthermore, it seems like they now realize that their own graduates don't have a place to go so they get a "two for one" by replacing with me with somebody for far less AND "finding a job" for their resident so they can say "see our residents have no problems finding jobs, in fact they love this department and my leadership so much that instead of going anywhere in the country they chose to stay right here and work for me (in our satellite 80 miles away that a few years ago was a private practice that was doing just fine without us). The craziest thing is my job is literally being split between 1.5-2 people. I have no idea why other than to allow for "greater flexibility for coverage within our satellite offices." Maybe also to make it seems like all of there graduates are employed, when in reality they just took my job and made it into two (and probably somehow cut the pay into thirds and funneled 1/3 back to the guys who hang out all day at the mother ship).
Again, I'm sorry this is happening to you. I really appreciate you came here to talk about it.

This is something all of us not in the bubble of the Main Campus Academic Department in the middle of a Metro City, USA are acutely aware of. If you're a resident or mid/late career faculty and feel skepticism about "SDN doom and gloom", look at your own department. Have you added any new satellite locations in the last 10 years? Unless that satellite was built from scratch, it was a private practice before it was "acquired". The RadOnc docs that worked there may have been pro-fee PLLC or hospital employed, but they most certainly were not "clinical faculty".

My residency institution certainly did this. Heck, they managed absorb every single existing RadOnc department in a giant geographic region. Now, there's only one truly independent practice left on the border of their geographic dominance. Otherwise, it's only large multi-specialty organizations or hospitals which have become part of the "Affiliate Syndicate" phenomenon (like when some random practice in Indiana is part of the MD Anderson Network). The state my residency institution is in has very strong Certificate of Need laws which makes it functionally impossible for someone to start an independent RadOnc practice, even if they had the money. I don't mean that theoretically - I literally know it happened at least once in the last decade, when a group of organized physicians with enough capital were unable to get CON approval to install and operate an independent linac.

Why haven't we been hearing about what happened to @JumpingShip more? Because of the time scales we're dealing with:

1) Residency expansion was insanely rapid but it still takes 5 years to produce a new grad.
2) Boomers are now coming into retirement age and are willing to sell their practice in the process.
3) Community hospitals are being absorbed into Academic Medical Center networks at an accelerating pace.
4) The official breast and prostate hypofrac recommendations (saying "do it for everyone") only came out in 2018.

You can actually easily see the lag of expansion hitting the market by looking at the board certification numbers:

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So while the "200 new grads per year" thing has been cooking for quite some time, you can only see it hit the market around 2016.

Even if you don't believe my statement about practices being sold, even if you think the story told by the original poster about what happened to him is a total lie, if you have any ounce of logic, the numbers are as clear as day.

The DOUBLING of new grads per year hit the market around 2016. The hypofrac guidelines for the backbone of any department (breast and prostate) were published in 2018, which drive insurance reimbursement guidelines. In isolation, those two factors alone set us on a disastrous course. Factor in @JumpingShip's situation...well, the direction we're heading is clear.

Everybody needs to understand that this is a multi-year process and throughout this entire time (ok maybe not year 0-1 but absolutely before the end of 2) I was trying to figure out what to do because it was so clear. The best advise or plan I could come up with is "consulting" but one has to realize that there are actually a ton of people (who are much younger, better with social media, and good looking than me) with MD's who never practiced and even those who were in primary care or other specialties. Who is going to hire a balding white middle aged radiation oncologist to write medical articles or even promote a product or website/services and why would even an oncology pharmaceutical company hire me vs a medical oncologist. It's not like thousands of these types of jobs exist.

I am an exceptional radiation oncologist but I literally can't do anything else, not even in medicine, and not even in oncology. I have come to the conclusion that I need to literally leave my children and get a job someplace else and see them on the weekends and holidays. Now the question is where is this job and is the same thing just going to happen again?
This needs to be repeated, over and over. Yes, alternative careers definitely exist. But they're not just sitting there, easily acquired for every Radiation Oncologist being backed into a corner. ESPECIALLY if you want to get a new job without uprooting your entire family. I'll go out on a limb and say at least 50%, probably the majority, of practicing Radiation Oncologists today don't have the mindset or personality to really "do well" in the consulting/industry/pharma gigs. Even if you do, unless you know the right people, starting salaries for these jobs are still lower than the satellite academic salaries. That's how they get you! Yes, the ceiling of the industry jobs is significantly higher than practicing clinical medicine. Some of the C-suite jobs come with salaries (not including benefits) of $450k-$900k. But how many of our colleagues can switch from 15 years of clinical practice into industry/consulting and compete with the well-networked MBAs who have been doing "consulting" for their entire careers and obtain these jobs?

I deeply believe this wasn't some grand design formulated behind the scenes by powerful figures. Rather, more of an "invisible hand" created as a natural consequence of the US Healthcare System being focused on extracting wealth from...literally everything.

Most physicians graduate with SIGNIFICANT student loan debt, $300-$500k, and it's getting worse. We don't really come out of training with any concrete "transferrable" skills. If you put in 8 years of school and 5 years of residency to become a Radiation Oncologist, and are finally starting your "real" life and family in the early 30s with several hundred thousand dollars in debt...taking a rural satellite gig making $275k a year is definitely the "best" option.

Salaries will keep going down in these jobs until the market finds the bottom. That's just how capitalism works. This is happening in all specialties, we're not unique in many of these issues (reference: the Private Equity saga of Emergency Medicine). What IS absolutely unique to us is the rapid doubling of our residents and having our jobs entirely dependent on a multi-million dollar machine that you can't even buy without government approval. When other doctors talk about how it's "too hard to start their own practice in the modern era", they're "only" talking about overheard costs and dealing with insurance. No one else has to lobby the government after raising millions of dollars of capital.
 
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It's so, so hard not to harbor animosity towards the guys coming in to literally take my job, but I'm certain they're actually being lied to, heartbreakingly enough by their own "mentors" who tell them "don't worry this is just temporary", you'll get a "protected day" to keep working and advancing your academic career, or "I'm sure within a year or two something will open up at the mother ship . . . you were such a productive resident we can't wait for you to come back!" and they're almost led to believe that the chair or whomever is actually doing THEM a favor by "at least finding something close by so you can be near your family"

My goodness if this is what it's like to be my age with student loans paid off years ago, children who are much older and a decade of solid income and at least during these past 3-5 years it wasn't "that bad" and I quickly figured out I needed to save as much as possible and prepare. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a 30-35 years old graduating with huge loans, babies/little kids and a family, and of course the stress of starting to work . . . I remember how stressful those first few years were and I didn't have to deal with any this extra anxiety! I'm so sorry for all of us but especially the new graduates...

I want to make it clear though that I am no expert on this matter and this is just my n=1 experience. I really hope this is not how it is everywhere or even in most places. I originally came on here seeking advice but expecting everybody to tell me what I already tried but at least it's been confirmed. I just wanted to provide as much detail as possible about my experience to help others.

I don't go on forums or use social media for anything other than looking at pictures of my out of state family and their kids and it is honestly very uncomfortable for me to put this all out there or even be on this site
I don’t have any advice beyond what is offered here but I want to offer my sympathy for what a ****ty ****ty situation you have been given? Dragged into? Forced into? It really really sucks.
 
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I'll also take this opportunity for a bold prediction:

Assuming some level of steady growth in tuition costs (not like, doubling), and adjusting for inflation, I think the standard salary for an academic satellite RadOnc position will level out at ~$250k with stable or increasing workload (meaning: ~4 days in clinic, target equivalent of 15 on beam). I think this is the number that will effectively "trap" people like the original poster, because it's higher than what they can easily get in a different type of job, and getting a better clinical RadOnc job would require geographic relocation.
 
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Essentially this but on top of the huge decrease in salary it is attached to a productivity metric. Basically every year they don't necessarily decrease the compensation, at least on paper, but they attached it to an RVU base that is barely then in no way achievable:

Here is how it went:

0. Practice acquired. Academic center pretends to come in to heroically save a center run by incompetent's hillbilly MD's and provide care to the underserved. Oh yeah, they provide such better care that they need to charge not 2-5% but a crazy amount more for the same services. Keep in mind that the care is literally provided the same person (me) I guess my plans and everything using the same software on the same machine QA'd by the same physicist and administered by the same therapists got so much better after we put a sign up stating our affiliation with an academic center 1.5 hours away.

1. Barely met metrics so no bonus just base salary. Base salary drops (actual drop not even held steady to let inflation decrease it) and RVU's are actually increased because "this place is losing money paying your salary last year . . . you need to work harder this year to make up for it". Everybody knows that if anything else RVU's are going to drop more next year.

2. No surprise, RVU not met so salary drops further but this time double digit percentile. RVU requirement rises even more. Everybody know that this is the only site in the area so it's not like I am losing "business" to competitors because I'm lazy, no matter how hard I work the patients, fractions, RVU's etc simply don't exist.

2.5 Mid-year salary decrease due to "analysis of the true impact that covid had on us over the past few years"

3. Same as after year 2 but now everybody is made aware that Dr. Smith, a PGY-5 at the academic center 1.5 hours away is graduating next year and his wife is in training or a specialist or somebody who the mother ship is looking to recruit for next year.

3.5 Salary dropped further for any random insane reason like literally the war in Ukraine. Oh by the way Dr. Smith's wife did indeed sign a contract at the mother ship starting in six months. He really needs to stay in the area and is young and desperate, wink wink, I'm sure he'd accept far lower terms than this ...

4 This is where I am now.

Everybody needs to understand that this is a multi-year process and throughout this entire time (ok maybe not year 0-1 but absolutely before the end of 2) I was trying to figure out what to do because it was so clear. The best advise or plan I could come up with is "consulting" but one has to realize that there are actually a ton of people (who are much younger, better with social media, and good looking than me) with MD's who never practiced and even those who were in primary care or other specialties. Who is going to hire a balding white middle aged radiation oncologist to write medical articles or even promote a product or website/services and why would even an oncology pharmaceutical company hire me vs a medical oncologist. It's not like thousands of these types of jobs exist.

I am an exceptional radiation oncologist but I literally can't do anything else, not even in medicine, and not even in oncology. I have come to the conclusion that I need to literally leave my children and get a job someplace else and see them on the weekends and holidays. Now the question is where is this job and is the same thing just going to happen again?

Happy F'n Father's day...
Sorry to hear this. Other non-traditional paths include going to pharma/manufacturers or working for insurance companies. Lot of ire directed at evicore, etc here... but have to put food on the table. In the meantime, side hustle as best you can... surveys, consultancies, legal work, locums, rental real estate...

If you can shoulder the risk, 1-2 million in loans gets you your own center in a year or so. Really depends on if the center that bought you out also bought out all the referral streams.
 
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The official breast and prostate hypofrac recommendations (saying "do it for everyone") only came out in 2018.

I hypofrac a lot but I would be unsurprised if the obsession with hypofrac and hypofrac trials in academics has underlying motives.

1. It makes it less likely for patients to stay in their community for radiotherapy, and more likely they’ll go to the big city academic mothership.

2. It makes it financially challenging to operate as independent practice, but financially viable if you bill academic mothership rates.
 
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Yes, alternative careers definitely exist. But they're not just sitting there, easily acquired for every Radiation Oncologist being backed into a corner. ESPECIALLY if you want to get a new job without uprooting your entire family. I'll go out on a limb and say at least 50%, probably the majority, of practicing Radiation Oncologists today don't have the mindset or personality to really "do well" in the consulting/industry/pharma gigs.

I don’t disagree with you, but if you don’t have alternatives, and you don’t have the mindset/personality/will to create alternatives for yourself, then you can’t be surprised when others control the parameters of your professional life.

The job market is not your fault, but you do have to recognize it’s reality, and plan accordingly. That’s what I tell myself too.

As an aside, when are we drafting that 250-1000 signatory anonymous letter rebutting that Chair of the North?
 
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I hypofrac a lot but I would be unsurprised if the obsession with hypofrac and hypofrac trials in academics has underlying motives.

1. It makes it less likely for patients to stay in their community for radiotherapy, and more likely they’ll go to the big city academic mothership.

2. It makes it financially challenging to operate as independent practice, but financially viable if you bill academic mothership rates.
I've thought this for years. Logic is sound. Site-neutral bundled payments would solve it which is why ASTRO opposed them for years
 
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Sounds like the MO of a number of north eastern systems like upenn, yale, maryland. It is also worth mentioning the loss of agency in these kinds of situations with mothership dictating how you treat (mdacc is the worst). Can you imagine some d head like a young drew moganacki reviewing your lung plans? Lastly, some chairman are flat out malignant. Example would be bill regines entire staff at maryland would leave every 5 years until recent job scarcity.
 
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I don’t disagree with you, but if you don’t have alternatives, and you don’t have the mindset/personality/will to create alternatives for yourself, then you can’t be surprised when others control the parameters of your professional life.

The job market is not your fault, but you do have to recognize it’s reality, and plan accordingly. That’s what I tell myself too.

As an aside, when are we drafting that 250-1000 signatory anonymous letter rebutting that Chair of the North?
I completely agree!

Unfortunately, the process of medical education really locks people into this mindset of "keep your head down, delay gratification, stay on the path, and be rewarded with a well paying career at the end".

There are definitely personality types that break out of this, though you don't see it often (or those people have already freed themselves from the system).

We're all more than our jobs!
 
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I don’t disagree with you, but if you don’t have alternatives, and you don’t have the mindset/personality/will to create alternatives for yourself, then you can’t be surprised when others control the parameters of your professional life.

The job market is not your fault, but you do have to recognize it’s reality, and plan accordingly. That’s what I tell myself too.

As an aside, when are we drafting that 250-1000 signatory anonymous letter rebutting that Chair of the North?
I
Hello JumpingShip! It saddens me to hear what you are going through, though I believe this is becoming a trend within medicine.

How about an alternative option?

You have a marketable skill set and your specialty is niche.

I think there is a reasonable likelihood that there is an industry/pharma/remote opportunity that you could fulfill. It is unlikely that industry/pharma is advertising for exactly what you need, though there are ways to create your own headwinds. Yeah, it may not pay Rad Onc money in the short term, though could be lucrative in the long run and/or give you the freedom to find the right clinical Rad Onc job or part time remote Rad Onc clinical or some type of hybrid that could work for your family without having to immediately move.

Trying to think outside the box for you. Best wishes!
Jobs in pharmacy and tech for a middle aged radonc are almost non existant.
 
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I feel for you and this is the exact situation that I feel will eventually occur for nearly all docs employed at independent community hospitals, including myself.

Leadership's party line is for folks to alter their expectations. Spratt himself referenced a surgeon friend who was making 1 mil (presumably with autonomy) and finished his career making 300K. Your story will absolutely not resonate with academic leadership and may not resonate with your replacements. It may also not resonate with many friends unless you run with a wealthy crowd of business owners, orthopods, very successful lawyers and landed gentry. If your friends are teachers, higher-ed academics, pediatricians, IM docs who don't go concierge, government or even corporate scientists, they'll think you are still doing pretty well. It is easy to feel adrift as a radonc in this era.

I missed the true entrepreneurial peak of radonc private practice and this was not part of my expectations. The next generation will just expect 300K satellite jobs and try to get these down to 30 hours/week while emphasizing QOL.

Eventually of course, these people will just lose their jobs to downsizing as indications continue to dwindle and automation facilitates productivity. Do not go into Radonc please.

I feel like what many people want, including those in medical leadership, is a diminishment in compensation disparity between docs and APPS that will eventually become very small (30-50k maybe in today's dollar). There will be rare specialists (surgeons and other proceduralists) that will be able to leverage a much greater disparity. We were in this group, but residency expansion killed this leverage.

In principle, the currency among academics is one of influence not cash, although boomer chairs are raking it in. In the currency of academic medicine, there are few positions of lower value than a satellite radiation oncologist. Do not go into Radonc please.

What most docs that went into the community were looking for: (the triad of community service, clinical autonomy and financial compensation) is anathema to academic leadership exempting the service part. Their perceived triad is one of: (service to institution/academia, the pursuit of clinical uniformity (outside of algorithmic personalized medicine, which will in turn be applied uniformly), and academic influence).

I have come to realize, that in the world of radiation oncology, I am not only a little person, but a bit of a villain.

I do plead to all community docs out there to please value your community hospital. Do extra. See if there is any opportunity for leadership. Put a bug in whoever's ear is available that consolidation results in lower QOL and value than smaller systems. Try to get into a position where you are making some decisions outside of your immediate field.

Remember, those that make decisions can almost never do the work themselves. It is OK to become a decision maker. At the same time, don't forget where you came from and advocate for docs as you would for any group of laborers. Emphasize their individuality, their unique value to the hospital, their humanity and their unparalleled investment in their education.
 
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I feel for you and this is the exact situation that I feel will eventually occur for nearly all docs employed at independent community hospitals, including myself.

Leadership's party line is for folks to alter their expectations. Spratt himself referenced a surgeon friend who was making 1 mil (presumably with autonomy) and finished his career making 300K. Your story will absolutely not resonate with academic leadership and may not resonate with your replacements. It may also not resonate with many friends unless you run with a wealthy crowd of business owners, orthopods, very successful lawyers and landed gentry. If your friends are teachers, higher-ed academics, pediatricians, IM docs who don't go concierge, government or even corporate scientists, they'll think you are still doing pretty well. It is easy to feel adrift as a radonc in this era.

I missed the true entrepreneurial peak of radonc private practice and this was not part of my expectations. The next generation will just expect 300K satellite jobs and try to get these down to 30 hours/week while emphasizing QOL.

Eventually of course, these people will just lose their jobs to downsizing as indications continue to dwindle and automation facilitates productivity. Do not go into Radonc please.

I feel like what many people want, including those in medical leadership, is a diminishment in compensation disparity between docs and APPS that will eventually become very small (30-50k maybe in today's dollar). There will be rare specialists (surgeons and other proceduralists) that will be able to leverage a much greater disparity. We were in this group, but residency expansion killed this leverage.

In principle, the currency among academics is one of influence not cash, although boomer chairs are raking it in. In the currency of academic medicine, there are few positions of lower value than a satellite radiation oncologist. Do not go into Radonc please.

What most docs that went into the community were looking for: (the triad of community service, clinical autonomy and financial compensation) is anathema to academic leadership exempting the service part. Their perceived triad is one of: (service to institution/academia, the pursuit of clinical uniformity (outside of algorithmic personalized medicine, which will in turn be applied uniformly), and academic influence).

I have come to realize, that in the world of radiation oncology, I am not only a little person, but a bit of a villain.

I do plead to all community docs out there to please value your community hospital. Do extra. See if there is any opportunity for leadership. Put a bug in whoever's ear is available that consolidation results in lower QOL and value than smaller systems. Try to get into a position where you are making some decisions outside of your immediate field.

Remember, those that make decisions can almost never do the work themselves. It is OK to become a decision maker. At the same time, don't forget where you came from and advocate for docs as you would for any group of laborers. Emphasize their individuality, their unique value to the hospital, their humanity and their unparalleled investment in their education.
This needs to be transcribed onto giant stone tablets and displayed on the grounds of all medical schools.
 
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From what I've heard from my former program, it sounds like there's going to be a tidal wave of incompetent new grads and pathological personalities in about 3 years. We'll have to see what that does to the market. I'll need to make sure I'm comfortable where I am before my programs rep goes to ****.
 
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Title kind of says it all. I'm a 46 year old man with three kids who has been in private practice for over 15 years and I love my job and this community, unless everybody has been lying to me for all these years I'm well liked and respected, but my practice was bought out not that long ago by a juggernaut academic center (I'm not sure if my "boss" is the 75 year old chair I've met once and had 2-3 zoom calls with or one of the people I've never met with an MBA who emails me from time to time about RVU's and "metrics") and now my options are either quit or agree to terms I simply cannot accept. I am very sure that the offer is purposely ridiculous so they know I won't take it and a fresh young PGY-5 replacement has already been assigned to replace me.

Anyway, my wife is from here, this is the only home my children have ever known, and we are juggling multiple elderly parents so I cannot move. What are my options?
Please provide any productive advice that you may have. I'm in an unbelievably desperate situation and would appreciate constructive advise or "silent prayers" and don't want this to turn into a "see the job market is terrible . . . look at this poor guy" thread as I'm well aware of that and it doesn't help. Please note that I am well into my 40's with a lot of responsibilities so I definitely can't go back and do another residency and it's been over 20 years since my intern year so I can't even work in an urgent care next to a 28 year old PA/NP (unless they were supervising me!)
To inform others about buyouts since it is becoming more common, can you talk more about the buyout process and what that was like? Were you involved in the decision making at all on that and did you get any piece of the buyout? Was their ever an option where the salary after a buyout can be negotiated as part of the buyout?
 
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To inform others about buyouts since it is becoming more common, can you talk more about the buyout process and what that was like? Were you involved in the decision making at all on that and did you get any piece of the buyout? Was their ever an option where the salary after a buyout can be negotiated as part of the buyout?
Buyouts only occurr when the group somehow owns a component of the technical or has multi year contract to supply proffesional services that academic center wants to end early. Almost univerrally, academic centers will allow docs to finish out proffesional service contract before offering mid faculty range salary. It is very rare for docs to have technical ownership in a community hospital, but the practice and university will have independent appraisers evaluate and negotiate a payout.
The real worry here is when all the 250k positions at midwestern satellites fill up and unemployment takes hold.
 
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Sorry to hear how the field of RO is today. In Derm (my specialty) there is definitely headwinds of private equity and academic consolidation making it harder for private practices, but luckily we are a few decades behind the worst fields and have low capital expenditure to hang a shingle. I’m hoping my career is done by the time dermatology reaches this point.

Out of curiosity for the OP- are there no opportunities for locums in radiation oncology? Could you not fly to somewhere that no one wants to live for say, 4 months of the year and spend the other 8 months as a stay-at-home dad?
 
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Locums pay is 💩 in radiation oncology, $1500-1800/day, pretax.

I don’t know dermatology rates, but in hematology oncology, the locums pay is $3500-5000/day.
 
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Rad onc is one of the few specialties I would imagine where the locums pay rate is less than average employed daily rates. Labor market realities and what not.
 
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Rad onc is one of the few specialties I would imagine where the locums pay rate is less than average employed daily rates. Labor market realities and what not.

That stinks. Makes me almost wish for single-payer to level the playing field with these mega-large systems that get paid so much more than the small fish.

Almost.
 
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From what I've heard from my former program, it sounds like there's going to be a tidal wave of incompetent new grads and pathological personalities in about 3 years. We'll have to see what that does to the market. I'll need to make sure I'm comfortable where I am before my programs rep goes to ****.
Just like the mid 70s-90s
 
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For those who are skeptical, or asking "what's different now", this current trend of "Academic Health Systems" really only kicked off in 1993 starting with Penn.

They struggled for the first decade or so, before figuring out the "secret sauce". But the intent of these Academic Systems is pretty clear if you read pieces from certain points of view:

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Being an employee of an Academic Health System is virtually "the default" for my generation of physicians, with 70% of docs under 40 years old being employed.

The financial hit of COVID is making the consolidation trend worse.

Obviously, this isn't an issue exclusive to Radiation Oncology. But when you're producing 200 new grads and only 100 people are retiring every year, it's basically handing us to every hospital CEO on a silver platter.

Ralph will get his wish, as the "Choosing Wisely: CEO Edition" includes "Never Pay a Radiation Oncologist More than a Pediatrician".
 
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Somewhere on this thread was “I’m an exceptional RadOnc”. There is no such thing. Have you ever met a truly outstanding NucMed or a diagnostic radiologist?

You only need to be good enough and that will satisfy your hospital system RadOnc 100%.

At one point of my career I was running a GK service at a competitive location (a lot of re-irradiation cases) while doing 3 cervical implants each week. No malpractice or even a major complaint. That bought me virtually zero extra respect within the Cancer Center and administration. Maybe the GynOnc Chair was thankful at times.

Would you like to be a respected physician? Stay away from RadOnc.
 
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I know some people think oh there goes the croc with the pretty teeth kinda joking about breadlines! Sorry folks but it ain’t as much of a joke as people think. Real pain will seriously come for many. I do not think many are prepared. I wish medical students or residents at hellpits would read these stories and avoid the field. The “leaders” just want warm bodies. Anybody telling you things are “fine” is straight up lying to you or badly misinformed so that they have zero credibilty on the subject.

Situations like the poster’s are terrible. Basically you are screwed. Only choice is to take a terrible deal and remain the slave of chairman and empty suit MBA or take a job farther away from where you want to be or work for evicore and sell your soul.

Choose very wisely folks! I foreee the soap next year being even bigger. The best is yet to come! Hellpits will hellpit. Grifters will grift. The canaries spoke years ago.
 
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