Listing of Lower Tier Programs...

[LRingers]

Enough talk of TOP and MID tier. We've heard LOWER TIER mentioned but never have we LISTED any of these programs. This thread is by no means meant to directly berate any SDNers med school or residency; only to spark good conversation. Would anyone like to start off this thread of what we might assume to be LOWER TIER General surgery residency programs and why we feel that they belong in this category? For example (fictional):

1. Purulent Univ. = PD just left, lost accred., lost huge research grant....
AND SO ON... (you get it!)

Also, this might be of some help to those of us unfamiliar with programs in certain parts of the country.

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[mark md]

This is a good thread, LRingers. Lowest of the lows: Univ of Chicago-for all the reasons listed in the posts under gen surg programs in chicago.

 

[apma77]

UMDNJ NEwark and St vincents in NYC are definitely low tier malignant programs

 

[phil123]

agree with apma and also whole-heartedly with mark md.

 

[apma77]

i can ramble on forever about umdnj as well...let me know if theres any interst in any of you to hear about that program..if i get enough votes i may give my spiel on that program.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by apma77
i can ramble on forever about umdnj as well...let me know if theres any interst in any of you to hear about that program..if i get enough votes i may give my spiel on that program.

No, we'd all appreciate if you could just shut up for once.

 

[apma77]

that wasnt very nice of u to say...buttmunch!

 

[Dothekusai]

Is there any basis for the UMDNJ and St. Vincent's comment? I'm seriously looking into those programs...

It would be helpful if you could define malignant...for example is it based on hours worked or poor attending teaching? Because if it's poor attending teaching, that's bad but if it's long work load w/good teaching...then it's different.


thanks!

 

[Castro Viejo]

www.scutwork.com

 

[LRingers]

Any Midwest-South-Southeastern programs come to mind?

 

[Minimalist M]

i can ramble on forever about umdnj as well...let me know if theres any interst in any of you to hear about that program..if i get enough votes i may give my spiel on that program.

I'd like to hear about UMDNJ Newark, in particular, their neurosurgery program. GS info is appreciated too! Thanks!

 

[apma77]

Minimalist you should rotate on the neuroservice there and see for yourself how busy it is ! I went to med school with a guy who went there for his residency and has since left the program.
I also have several friends who did prelim years in surgery at umdnj and have told me their horror stories and i myself as a student have rotated on their trauma service so i know how malignant the place can be!
Last yr they fired 4 residents for "poor performance" when indeed that was not the case at all. they just did not like the personalities of these people. you would think that they would not have had to wait 4 yrs to recognize poor perforamnce and screw someone in their later part of residency.
alot of abrasive attendings including the old program director who is now the medical director of the hospital.
If you are not the sweetheart of the program you are iddentified early in your internship and tortured for another 3 yrs before they fire you in your 4th yr of residency.
It is not a place i can recommend anyone goto ...very very malignant!
go see for yourself and talk to the residents one on one not in public and theyll tell you!

 

[Minimalist M]

That's useful info about the temperment of this program. Thanks.

I'm sure there are other programs which are also as harsh as this, can anybody add to the list? (Neurosurgery or General)

 

[apma77]

good neuro programs with less malignancy are:

Barrow
hopkins
Michigan
Henry Ford

Really bad programs with tough call schedule and malignancy issues:
Northwestern
UMDNJ
Baylor
UT southwestern
Mayo

 

[wanttocut]

I recently graduated from Newark; doing GS in Manhattan.
Half of the stuff on scutwork.com is true and the other half is simply the rambling of bitter (a.k.a fired) people. The personalities are vivid, strong and some are simply a-holes (the same you get just about anywhere).

If you want help/direction from attendings at Newark, you have to work very hard to find your appropriate match. My advisor (K. Swan), as far as I am concerned, is the ideal GS pundit/role model. I got very little help from many of the other attendings nonetheless, the insight and direction I eventually received was well worth sifting through the less desirables if you will.

Just as an example -- I did a month with the liver transplant team. It was the hardest I had ever worked yet, I had never been treated so well and learned so much. I was treated like one of the team members (they actually would listen to my stupid suggestions) These guys were freakin incredible; the hardest working bunch in the business; Coneru would do a 16 hr plant, turn around and complete a 6 hr harvest and still teach.

The program future is uncertain -- they may lose the Hackensak site in a few years conversely, PD is putting more residents at Morristown to compensate.

From what I gather from the residents; most don't particulary care for the PD (spare your garden variety sphincter waxers) but the OR variety, trauma service and hospital site diversity make up for the minuses. To be honest, nothing makes for Newark though -- I could not imagine spending an additional 5 years blowing lights down South Orange Ave.

If it would be any help, I'd be happy to give anyone my perspective to Newark questions.
PTH

 

[Castro Viejo]

Originally posted by wanttocut
The program future is uncertain -- they may lose the Hackensak site in a few years conversely, PD is putting more residents at Morristown to compensate.

I heard that Hackensack was starting up its own program. If they are, I think it'll be the cushiest Gen Surg program in the Northeast.

 

[Energon]

wanttocut: Regarding loss of Hack as a site... isnt Hack a University Hospital affiliated with UMD nwk? So how can they just pull out like that?

 

[apma77]

I know newark program well and hands down it is malignant...i have friends in that progam who are miserable. MEd students at umd are one of the laziest ive seen (not all) so their experience in surgery is diluted for many of them.

the surgery dept lowers its own students that way. to make it an easy rotation so students get suckered in then kill em when its time for residency internship and beyond

 

[wanttocut]

Now that's censorship. apma77 can malign my alma mater and collegues but I cannot point out that his measly, cynical and pessimistic posts are simply useless harangues. What's that all about?

 

[Surgdude]

I want to know where LRingers gets off calling any midwest-SE-southern programs as being lower tier. I'm in a midwest program that seriously kicks.

I think that blanket statements like that are garbage. Especially since there are truly rotten programs all over, regardless of region.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Surgdude
I want to know where LRingers gets off calling any midwest-SE-southern programs as being lower tier. I'm in a midwest program that seriously kicks

You tell 'em, Surgdude!

the guy's a friggin' genius...I'm tellin' ya...you don't want to stack stats against him...you can't; they don't go any higher...

 

[droliver]

Originally posted by wanttocut
Now that's censorship. apma77 can malign my alma mater and collegues but I cannot point out that his measly, cynical and pessimistic posts are simply useless harangues. What's that all about?

While apma77 tends not to always make thoughtful contributions to the surgery board, you retort was a little too "blue" for the tone I expect to see here. That's why it was removed. Otherwise, I really have enjoyed many of your contributions and welcome another more (relatively) senior perspective on the field

 

[apma77]

its all in the language u use my dear friends!

 

[LRingers]

Surgdude, womansurg and all others that misunderstood my post...
I wasn't passing any judgement on any Midwest-SE-S programs if you read my post correctly. At the time of my post, the only responses centered around NY programs and not the other regions of the country. That is why I requested further input, i.e. Midwest-S-SE; if that clears that up. How about some West coast programs also?
If it makes you feel any better, I went to med school in the South (and had a great academic experience!) SO THERE. And as stated before I'd like to know what other Gen surg programs are considered poor in all areas of the country.
As in my previous disclaimer, this thread IS NOT a forum to intentionally put-down others' programs. It is meant to inform our colleagues of not so great programs and WHY; as has been done with our Top 10 Gen surg program posts. Also, this post can save 4th year med students time and money if they choose to take this advice.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

LR- did you interview this past season or are you going to be entering the match this year? If you already went through the process, any programs that you found to be particularly malignant?

I interviewed in the Southeast (Virginia and Kentucky as the northern points, Florida south and to Louisiana west.) I was expecting that there would be 1 or 2 that were heinous, but was surprised that I didn't find any to be that bad. I ended up ranking all to which I interviewed- thought that (despite personal preference) any would have been fine places to train.

The weird thing to me is I heard that several places were pretty hard-core, including UAB, UT-Memphis, and Louisville- yet that was not my impression from my visit. I thought all seemed quite focused on resident education and I got along well with the people I met. None seemed to hide the fact that hard work is to be expected, but I found the way in which it was presented to be positive. They ended up all being in my top 5- among my favorites out there.

Or maybe I'm just a hard-as#

 

[apma77]

if you have a hard-@ss youll be vey much in demand.....but if your the typical female feminist med student who ID a hardas* then most guys will vioid u like te plague despite your looks

 

[apma77]

my spelling has gone to crapola

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by LRingers
Surgdude, womansurg and all others that misunderstood my post...

Actually it was clear what your meaning was to me...I was simply reacting to Surgdude's post being that he is a friend of mine and I was tickled to see him on the forum. You weren't suggesting anything about midwest programs, I agree.