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Lifestyle across subspecialties in ortho
- Thread starter JimBeezie
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JimBeezie said:
No one wants to write you an essay.
It varies alot based on a lot of factors.
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JimBeezie said:
Jim,
You are a total D-bag. You posted this question on multiple forums and then followed up with 'no one posted, what gives'.
Maybe you should be more discrete and ask around your own instituion or look up online.
Even though you are acting like a tool, i'll tell you that the truth is that it depends on the practice that you're in, what you choose to do, how much and what kind of call you take.
Chill vanilla bean,
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Debridement said:
Isn't this forum meant for the exchange of information? I see, asking the same question about different specialties because I have the interest makes me a D-bag. Riiiight. You're the D-bag who just couldn't resist answering the D-bag's question.
If anyone has any further information, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm aslo asking because I don't have much time to decide between several different fields as I will only get to do 2-3 electives before I apply for residency, which means I can't do electives in ALL the fields I'm interested in. Unfortunately at my school, there is little-no exposure to fields outside the core rotations.
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JimBeezie said:
What?
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JimBeezie said:
Might I suggest picking your electives based on your own interests?
Within each field of medicine, I'm sure there's a way to angle for a cushy lifestyle (taking less call, private practice, opening up shop in certain locations, etc...)
Picking a field of medicine based on how much it pays and how little you can work (which is what I think you're doing if you're desperately posting from forum to forum asking the same question) makes you seem pathetic and sad.
Perhaps that is why you're receiving no responses across all the forums.
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[/QUOTE]Picking a field of medicine based on how much it pays and how little you can work (which is what I think you're doing if you're desperately posting from forum to forum asking the same question) makes you seem pathetic and sad.[/QUOTE]
This is your opinion. In my opinion, picking a field without considering lifestyle and salary is stupid. Who would take a job without knowing the hours and pay? Am I wrong for asking these questions? If no one here wants to give me insight, I will seek it out elsewhere. I just think it's really sad that this forum is meant for the exchange of information, but only certain peices of information qualify to be exchanged, and only if others' think you have just cause for requesting that information based on their own views.
This is your opinion. In my opinion, picking a field without considering lifestyle and salary is stupid. Who would take a job without knowing the hours and pay? Am I wrong for asking these questions? If no one here wants to give me insight, I will seek it out elsewhere. I just think it's really sad that this forum is meant for the exchange of information, but only certain peices of information qualify to be exchanged, and only if others' think you have just cause for requesting that information based on their own views.
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I think it is pretty clear from your wording that you are only interested in pay and hours. Why else would you approach every forum with the same questions?
Calling you a D-bag is a bit harsh, yet I'm inclined to agree with the previous posts about developing your interests first. When the average joe choses a career for himself, he choses a field that interests him first and then considers the other options like salary and hours. An artist doesn't think he would like to make $40,000 a year than decides that he would do this through painting pictures, his interest in art comes first, then the monetary rewards follow, you should do the same. There is huge amount of scope and diversity in medicine. Pick your area first. If you have no idea then chose general surgery and specialise later; if you dislike surgery but still not sure what you would like then enroll onto the 3 year internal medicine residency. This will open up many possibilities in medicine. Making $300,000 per year by working 40 hrs a week, with little malpractice insurance, might sound great on paper but if you have no flare or interest in the job, particularly in a field such as medicine where the stress can be enormous, these 40 hrs a week can seem like an eternity.
Anyway, any surgical residency is going to be difficult, regardless, all of the training schemes involve very long, unsocial hours, with neurosurgery and general surgery probably coming off a little worse than the others, I'd suspect, but then this does depend largely on the training program. Afterwards your career is pretty much up to you, you can work as much or as little as possible, allowing, of course, for certain restrictions such as healthy and safety regulations.
Medicine is a noble profession, steeped in history and tradition, especially in the UK where the basic age old protocols are still observed in timeless fashion, and though we have all spoken of hours and salary at some point, guilty as charged, incessant questions on these subjects does indeed undermine the nobility of the profession and not to mention irritate many people here.
I'm humbled by doctors in some developing countries. In my experience, they work the same hours, 80 hrs or more, but without consideration to pay or prestique; for them, medicine is a calling, an opportunity to serve a higher power, whether it is the devine, as their religion dictates, or the needs of the community, these doctors continue relentlessly, through thick and thin, unabated by financial distractions.
Why do I get the feeling that I'm repeating myself....
Calling you a D-bag is a bit harsh, yet I'm inclined to agree with the previous posts about developing your interests first. When the average joe choses a career for himself, he choses a field that interests him first and then considers the other options like salary and hours. An artist doesn't think he would like to make $40,000 a year than decides that he would do this through painting pictures, his interest in art comes first, then the monetary rewards follow, you should do the same. There is huge amount of scope and diversity in medicine. Pick your area first. If you have no idea then chose general surgery and specialise later; if you dislike surgery but still not sure what you would like then enroll onto the 3 year internal medicine residency. This will open up many possibilities in medicine. Making $300,000 per year by working 40 hrs a week, with little malpractice insurance, might sound great on paper but if you have no flare or interest in the job, particularly in a field such as medicine where the stress can be enormous, these 40 hrs a week can seem like an eternity.
Anyway, any surgical residency is going to be difficult, regardless, all of the training schemes involve very long, unsocial hours, with neurosurgery and general surgery probably coming off a little worse than the others, I'd suspect, but then this does depend largely on the training program. Afterwards your career is pretty much up to you, you can work as much or as little as possible, allowing, of course, for certain restrictions such as healthy and safety regulations.
Medicine is a noble profession, steeped in history and tradition, especially in the UK where the basic age old protocols are still observed in timeless fashion, and though we have all spoken of hours and salary at some point, guilty as charged, incessant questions on these subjects does indeed undermine the nobility of the profession and not to mention irritate many people here.
I'm humbled by doctors in some developing countries. In my experience, they work the same hours, 80 hrs or more, but without consideration to pay or prestique; for them, medicine is a calling, an opportunity to serve a higher power, whether it is the devine, as their religion dictates, or the needs of the community, these doctors continue relentlessly, through thick and thin, unabated by financial distractions.
Why do I get the feeling that I'm repeating myself....
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Fine. Here are the answers.
1) Every job in medicine pays a fair amount. If you are unhappy with that kind of salary, try becoming a professional baseball player instead.
2) Every job in medicine requires effort. If you are unhappy working more than 40 hours a week, try becoming a hot dog vendor.
3) Are you wrong for asking these questions? I tell you what. Isn't it cool how you are asking these questions on an anonymous forum? If it were so right and so prudent, wouldn't you ask your dean? Perhaps you'd mention it during your medical school interviews? Or best of all, maybe you'll bring it up as an important selling point during your residency interviews?
No?
I didn't think so. And that's why it is wrong.
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we are at the same medical school. how about we talk about this FACE TO FACE since you seem to be so ag about it. you obviously are an idiot because 1) no, every job in medicine does not pay a fair amount, especially when you have Ivy college and med school loans, 2) like I said before, I'm simply asking questions. I am not chosing a field based on these things. I simply wanted some insight from people I do not know. 3) I have not asked the dean, but have discussed these and other topics at length while on every service I've been on. My evaluations remain outstanding.
Do not judge me. I will seek you out at school and you can say these things to my face.
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1) Oh I see! Because we have accumulated 6 digits worth of loans, we are somehow entitled to mid to high 6 digit/year payout! I had no idea! This will make my job search much easier in the future. Thank you.
2) That was not your question. You asked if you were doing something wrong. If you aren't comfortable bringing it up in front of your dean or in an interview environment, how right could it be? Again, I thought so.
3) Discussing your plight with interns/residents/fellow medical students is the easy way out. These are often the bitterest people with big loans and an eye on the big paycheck. (Unless you have spoken with attendings about this as well. But even then, I could make the bitter argument when comparing those doctors to their colleagues in more lucrative private practices)
Like you say, not that it isn't a wise idea to keep the bottom line in mind. But it's very transparent.
And that's why the forum called you on it. Why else are we the only two left arguing here?
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i think we need to step back and realize that we are all working towards the same goal here: to be happy
different people need different types of things to be happy
some people need only to help others
others need intellectual challenge
still others need the manual procedures
money and work hours, like the above factors, are one of the criteria that some people need to make themselves happy
therefore, i have no problem with people asking quite honestly and forewardly about money or hours just as I have no problem with questions regarding any of the other aspects of different fields
they are all questions aimed at achieving the same goal--happiness. We all have different ways of achieving this and we should respect the way that others may choose to pursue happiness even if it may be different from ours.
After all, America is based on this fundamental concept--the freedom to pursue happiness.
different people need different types of things to be happy
some people need only to help others
others need intellectual challenge
still others need the manual procedures
money and work hours, like the above factors, are one of the criteria that some people need to make themselves happy
therefore, i have no problem with people asking quite honestly and forewardly about money or hours just as I have no problem with questions regarding any of the other aspects of different fields
they are all questions aimed at achieving the same goal--happiness. We all have different ways of achieving this and we should respect the way that others may choose to pursue happiness even if it may be different from ours.
After all, America is based on this fundamental concept--the freedom to pursue happiness.
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Thank you. And it's not like I'm the first person to ask these questions on this forum.
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Here!
http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin/resweb.nsf/WV/62353A93C5C35CB186256F850071BD86?OpenDocument
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
There's some others floating around here as well. Do a search. They're easy to find.
http://residency.wustl.edu/medadmin/resweb.nsf/WV/62353A93C5C35CB186256F850071BD86?OpenDocument
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
There's some others floating around here as well. Do a search. They're easy to find.
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I think you've endured enough on this board to get an answer, so here goes:
1) No matter what specialty within orthopaedics you are in, you have to work twice as hard in your first 10 years as the second 10, then less in the last 20. When you get started, you are trying to build a patient base, a referral base and establish yourself. That means that you never turn away a patient (so you see a lot of no-pays and low-pays), so your clinic tends to be full, but youre not making a ton of money. You take a lot of call since that is the #1 way to get new patients fast. Thats the honest truth for all specialties. Also, if you are a sub-specialist, you are going to have to take a lot of general ortho call you first couple of years out. Thats just the trend of things.
2) After a few years of practice, you can start to define your practice how you want. I know a few tumor guys who take basically no call, but often have very sick patients in-house and have to tend to them at all hours. Some people have outpatient-based sports, shoulder or hand practices and never take call.
3) The spine guys have a lot of clinic, as do peds and hand, so expect that in those areas.
4) Hours worked does not always correlate with compensation. Your practice definition and types of patients you see will affect that more than anything else. If you are in peds and you see a lof of no-pays, low-pays, then you will work a ton and make mid-range money. If you have an all private insurance spine or shoulder practice and take little-no call, you will make a lot more.
I would encourage you to try to spend some time with private orthopods as well as the academic guys and ask them about reimbursement in a diplomatic but frank manner. Most guys I know are pretty open about talking about earning and workload. They may not give you hard-and-fast numbers, but they are happy to talk about their colleagues who are making more/less, and by extrapolating and interpolating, you can figure out what affects what. That was really how I got a feel for what I can expect to make in what field.
Hope this helps,
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great post...answered a bunch of questions in my mind
That Wash U site is suspect it has the average salary for an orthopod at 335k (median 284k) -- while the avg for plastics is 275k. What's up with that? I thought for sure plastics guys made more than ortho guys. It also says ortho works fewer hours than plastics -- hard to believe that too.
Like the saying goes: What's the difference between a plastic surgeon and an orthopedic surgeon?
The plastic surgeon makes twice as much, he gets out on time, and and his wife is a work in progress.
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The neurosurg. figures seem a little odd too.
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thank you. this helped a lot.
if you are so worried about time-- dude go into FP (8-5) and be quiet...you are a tool like the others said...
talk to your professors-- you ARE IN MED SCHOOL... that is why they are there...
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JimBeezie,
Kudos to you for sharing-- I am in a similar situation in that I don't have the freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, as many medical students do. I have a husband and future family to think about and although it is a shame to turn your back on an area in which you really want to work, you have to put your family first. That being said, I would also like as much information about these competitive residencies and "real advice" from people who are in the programs and have experience, maybe even a success story from a person who did well in a competitive residency AND still made time for his/her family, who didn't give up the latter in the name of professional success. I don't want to discount certain residencies (or choose them) because I have preconceived notions about what they're like. So please, everyone, don't discriminate against people who just want more information from those who have been there.
Thanks!
Kudos to you for sharing-- I am in a similar situation in that I don't have the freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, as many medical students do. I have a husband and future family to think about and although it is a shame to turn your back on an area in which you really want to work, you have to put your family first. That being said, I would also like as much information about these competitive residencies and "real advice" from people who are in the programs and have experience, maybe even a success story from a person who did well in a competitive residency AND still made time for his/her family, who didn't give up the latter in the name of professional success. I don't want to discount certain residencies (or choose them) because I have preconceived notions about what they're like. So please, everyone, don't discriminate against people who just want more information from those who have been there.
Thanks!
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This is just my observation from working under orthodocs for a few years. Orthopedics is not a career it is a life.
If a person with the required skills, knowledge, grades, usmle score obtains an orthopedics residency but cannot work the vast amount of hours required to be a good orthopedic physician, they took a spot from someone who might have been able to work the hours.
I know one orthopedic surgeon who had to deal with his son having stranger anxiety towards him.
There are many lower hour specialties out there that can be considered "elite" such as dermatology, or PM&R
Also, although I do not condone slamming on this or any forum for that matter, I believe you jsut got a taste of the attitude you would get from many people in the orthopedics field. I know there are outstanding female orthodocs out there, but orthopedics is still a "good ole boy" specialty that requires a highly competitive nature with many hours of work.
If a person with the required skills, knowledge, grades, usmle score obtains an orthopedics residency but cannot work the vast amount of hours required to be a good orthopedic physician, they took a spot from someone who might have been able to work the hours.
I know one orthopedic surgeon who had to deal with his son having stranger anxiety towards him.
There are many lower hour specialties out there that can be considered "elite" such as dermatology, or PM&R
Also, although I do not condone slamming on this or any forum for that matter, I believe you jsut got a taste of the attitude you would get from many people in the orthopedics field. I know there are outstanding female orthodocs out there, but orthopedics is still a "good ole boy" specialty that requires a highly competitive nature with many hours of work.
yes, as above
all you people who worry about the number of hours you are going to work in a specialty--- forget that speciality. if you don't want to work then go watch tv or read a book...if you want to work then go into ortho... you have to love to work jimbeeze--- if you don't then go get injured on your job and collect your disabilty checks so you can sit on your ....
all you people who worry about the number of hours you are going to work in a specialty--- forget that speciality. if you don't want to work then go watch tv or read a book...if you want to work then go into ortho... you have to love to work jimbeeze--- if you don't then go get injured on your job and collect your disabilty checks so you can sit on your ....
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Granted this post is several months old, but I just came across it. And I must say that you're totally out of line, as well as entirely self-righteous. Get real, and grow up.
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O.k. hardass. You mean to tell me that you'd still do ortho if the pay was 90k/year and it was typical to work 90 hours/week as an attending? Come off it.
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word up.
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Either you become a workaholic or you collect disability checks. Nice logic.
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It is no secret why Doctor's reimbursements and income keep declining and do not keep up with simple inflation. People get all pissy when doc's care about being paid. Noble is one thing, but come on, doc's deserve better salaries than they have today, and this being noble crap is ridiculous. Doctors are going to keep being noble all the way to socialized health care and 90k a year.
For those that keep letting the insurance companies make all the money, while patients still think it is the doctor, you are on a slippery slope to the poor house.
I am not saying a doc should not sacrafice a bit, it is in the call of the profession, but I don't think it is wrong to care about the income you deserve to make.
For those that keep letting the insurance companies make all the money, while patients still think it is the doctor, you are on a slippery slope to the poor house.
I am not saying a doc should not sacrafice a bit, it is in the call of the profession, but I don't think it is wrong to care about the income you deserve to make.
