law school?

[amyl]

hey -- i am an m3 and was just approached by someone suggesting i go to law school instead of residency. any one know any one who has done this?

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[Noyac]

I know a few but not very well. Why did they suggest this?

 

[Monty Python]

hey -- i am an m3 and was just approached by someone suggesting i go to law school instead of residency. any one know any one who has done this?

A recent president of the AMA is an MD/JD, and from my hometown:

http://www.connectlive.com/events/infectiousdiseases/PALMISANOBIO2.pdf

Perhaps you can obtain his contact information through Tulane Medical School and give him a buzz.

 

[amyl]

he thought i would make a good lawyer i guess. am somewhat worried that i won't get the residency i want and was thinking of alternatives. just wondering if it was done often and if so how it worked out for other people.

 

[huron]

hey -- i am an m3 and was just approached by someone suggesting i go to law school instead of residency. any one know any one who has done this?

Practicing law and being part of the problem seem like fun. In anesthesia you work hard and inevitably get screwed by the administration or the a$$hole who you have to work for who the administration gave the contract to. I just want to work for myself be my own boss and not have to kiss someone's a$$. That does not seem like something you can do in Anesthesia any more. I hope to start law school part time in the fall of 2007.

As an MS3 you have completed the hard part of Med school, all you have to do is little more than show up for your MS3 and MS4 years to graduate. Your medical degree is really a 5 year degree since a Physician can not be licensed without an internship. Almost every physician lawyer, I have ever seen has done an Internship. While you might have a tough time getting your first choice residency you can easily get an internship.

Law school can be done part time, so while I doubt, you will be able to find a cake internship and residency where you could finish law school part time. You can certainly go to a night or weekend only law school and still make money practicing medicine full time.

You probably have to be realistic about lawyer salaries. Any lawyer can read a few medical books and know all of the medicine they need to practice law. As a physician lawyer you will not paid much more than lawyers with similar numbers of years practicing law which will be a whole lot less than most attending physicians.

 

[dr. mccoy]

hey -- i am an m3 and was just approached by someone suggesting i go to law school instead of residency. any one know any one who has done this?

I think it really depends on where your interests lie. If it is to practice medically related law, consider law school. However, if you have any interest in medicine, it makes more sense to do the residency first, and then law school. The same would go for an MBA should you be interested in going into administration sometime in the future. Certainly, additional degrees make you more versatile. It seems that most residencies though are long enough, that most of us just want to start practicing when we finish. Going to law school without a residency does not make sense to me... it is a waste of a potentially very valuable physician who would make a difference in many people's lives.

 

[fval28]

I think it really depends on where your interests lie. If it is to practice medically related law, consider law school. However, if you have any interest in medicine, it makes more sense to do the residency first, and then law school. The same would go for an MBA should you be interested in going into administration sometime in the future. Certainly, additional degrees make you more versatile. It seems that most residencies though are long enough, that most of us just want to start practicing when we finish. Going to law school without a residency does not make sense to me... it is a waste of a potentially very valuable physician who would make a difference in many people's lives.

Do you think that the only reason to go to MBA is to get into admin- if so why? I am taking MBA courses at night with the goal of using it to further my entrepreneurial goals- the only contact I want with admin is when I negotiate contracts. I would be genuinely interested in hearing your perspective. Thanks

 

[Noyac]

Do you think that the only reason to go to MBA is to get into admin- if so why? I am taking MBA courses at night with the goal of using it to further my entrepreneurial goals- the only contact I want with admin is when I negotiate contracts. I would be genuinely interested in hearing your perspective. Thanks

That plan sounds fine to me.

 

[me454555]

Do you think that the only reason to go to MBA is to get into admin- if so why? I am taking MBA courses at night with the goal of using it to further my entrepreneurial goals- the only contact I want with admin is when I negotiate contracts. I would be genuinely interested in hearing your perspective. Thanks

Read the MD/MBA forum, there are a few topics on this. I've thought about getting my MBA for the same reason as you. The conclusion I've come to is that it's the wrong choice to make. You don't need to spend all that money or invest the time in an MBA program to learn to be an entrapeneur. Taking a few course at a community college along with reading some books will probably give you more than enough book knowledge to succeed in running your practice. The rest of your knowledge needs to come from the real world regardless of whether you go through an MBA program or just read books.

 

[dr. mccoy]

Do you think that the only reason to go to MBA is to get into admin- if so why? I am taking MBA courses at night with the goal of using it to further my entrepreneurial goals- the only contact I want with admin is when I negotiate contracts. I would be genuinely interested in hearing your perspective. Thanks

An MBA would be useful in negotiating contracts, though I do not think it is necessary to have one for this purpose. I am not sure what entrepreneurial goals you are aiming for as it applies to medicine. My definition of administration is not only running a hospital group, but it includes running your own office or clinic (e.g. pain). As the saying goes, doctors know how to make money, but managing their own finances is a different story. I applaud your initiative and your further education can only help you in advancing your future.

 

[amyl]

great to hear from someone that actually did do medical school and then law school. i am being told that i will make 160k out of school, 400k within a few years, and 900k as partner. of course this offer is in south florida, which i have no interest in saying in. sounds like they may not being telling me the whole truth about how much lawyers make.

isn't not that i don't want to practice medicine its just that anesthesia is the only area of medicine i will be happy in...if i don't get it then 3 years of reading books sounds better than primary care....and more lucrative. it isn't all about the money but i have a lot of student loans and i am just not the kind of person who is comfortable owing all that money

 

[markneil]

average anesthesiologist makes more than the average lawyer(?-opinions)

 

[amyl]

average anesthesiologist makes more than the average lawyer(?-opinions)

i don't doubt this at all, but their argument is that i wouldn't be an average lawyer having the medical degree as well. if i don't get anes, would be stuck in primary care. i think lawyers make more than FPs?

 

[markneil]

i don't know much about what lawyers make but i got the impression that most public lawyers (defenders/prosecutors) make considerably less than their corporate counterparts. law is an acquired taste.

 

[VolatileAgent]

most lawyers make far less than doctors. unless you sell your soul and work at a big firm, or you become a scum-sucking, bottom-feeding plaintiff's attorney, you're likely to spend your entire career striving to get to the $100-140 mark. either way, forget any realistic chance of having a meaningful family life, unless you're content working as a $65-70k/yr associate at some mid/small firm or in the public arena soaking in debt from medical AND law school.

if you do decide to go to law school, you better be in the top of your class, make law review, sit on moot court, and generally shine if you want one of those coveted jobs. then, be prepared to work your ass off as an associate only to claw your way to junior partner, all the time waiting for one of your colleagues to stick the knife in your back. lawyers are generally not fun people to be around professionally. i've got tons of friends who are lawyers, and only one of them is professionally happy (and, at the age of 41, he still makes far less now than i did in the business world prior to leaving for med school... and next year in my first private practice job i will - literally - be making almost quadruple his salary).

so, you gotta ask yourself this - do i want to go into another ~$100k of debt over the next three years with an equal chance at being miserable?

this is volatile's bottom line: the world needs a whole lot more good doctors and a helluva lot less lawyers.

to sum it all up, in times of high stress the grass always looks greener... stay on the path you're on. you're going to get your anesthesia spot. residency might partially suck, but you'll be much happier in the end.

 

[amyl]

thanks VA -- all the more reason for me to keep praying to the residency gods for someone to let me in ;-)

 

[fval28]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my questions. I am just beginning to take courses now and am on the fence as to whether to continue- personally I don't think any education is a waste of time- but I appreciate and understand your cautions to carefully weight the cost/benefit ratio of an MBA. Thanks again.

 

[huron]

average anesthesiologist makes more than the average lawyer(?-opinions)

Okay, here i'm comparing the viability (for money making) of a medical career versus other high paying fields.

I'm starting with a few assumptions for my argument (they may not apply to you, but lets say they hold true for the sake of what follows)

-I'm talking only about high achieving, smart students, who could get into medical school, a top law school, or a top business job. (ie: top 5-10% of their college class)

-I'm assuming that you are motivated by money and will go into whatever specialty/area will make the most. (my assessment will target making at least $1,000,000 a year net salary at top of career)

Okay, so. lets compare 3 paths. Law, Medicine, and Ibanking.

In I-Banking- I'll give you the benefit of having already obtained a summer internship or a bachelors degree entry level analyst position (which, btw, only about 5% of business students achieve). Now consider that approx. 70% of analysts at these banks will get in to a top business school afterwards. In order to come back and be re-hired by your old firm, you would probably have to be in the top half of your business school class. Now you're working an 80-100 hour a week job as an associate, making 200k to start with. Its not our target salary, so, lets consider that about 5% of these associates will become managing directors (the first of the elite salary levels of 700-800k+).

Overall after undergraduate study - assuming you can even get an entry level job at a top i bank. 70%(go to bschool) x 50%(get re-hired) x 5% (become an MD) = .0175 ..

In i-banking .. 1.7 percent of these people can achieve the target income level.

Medicine
Like I gave the benefit of getting an i banking job out of college, i'll assume you will have gotten into some kind of med school. From here. Top 10% will go on to an elite residency (plastics, surgery, derm, radiology). From here, there's nothing stopping you from building an insanely rich practice.

In medicine... 10 percent of these people can achieve the target income level.

Law
Assuming you've gotten into a top 5 law school, lets say 40% of these people go on to "biglaw" jobs. Now, you have the next 7 years to prove yourself. 3% of these people become partners. 40% x .3% = .012 ..

In law.. 1.2 percent of these people can achieve the target income level.

So
If you want to make a lot of money, really badly, and you're willing to work at it. Medicine is by far the best bet. As 10% of medical grads will go into specialties that allow them to make ridiculous amounts of money in private practice. This is one thing i really like about medicine. You only spend about 3 years "proving" yourself, getting into a residency. After that its like you have a license to print money. You're controlling your destiny. In other professions, you have different "cuts" every few years where only a few advance, and everyone else has to stop. It takes 9 years in law to get a biglaw partner spot, perhaps 10 in business. In medicine, after 3 years (granted, perhaps 4), you'll be all but guaranteed a high paying job.

Comments?

huron

 

[Conflicted]

Just as a comparison:

Here are the average wages for each:

Lawyer:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary

Here is the average Doctor:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_/_Doctors/Salary

Here is the average Anesthesiologist:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Anesthesiologist/Salary

On the surface anyway, it appears MD/DOs make more than JDs right out the gate and tend to stay that way.

Hope this helps!