Last Weekend on the Suze Orman Show

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BMBiology said:
Please don't drag me into this. Like I had previously clarified, the situation in states like California is very different from where you live. It is already hard to get a mortgage here and certainly, if you have a lot student loan, it is going to be even harder.

BTW, she mentioned they had put down 20% for a house so what you said was not accurate.
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I'm not dragging you into anything. I'm clarifying for our new guest. My post was making fun of your blanket claim that "high student loan debt" = no mortgage EVAR. I wasn't talking about her, but she thought I was, so I explained. I'm certainly not interested in rehashing the topic with you. I only meant to reassure Ms. Adrienne that I was not making fun of her. :)
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BMBiology said:
It is already hard to get a mortgage here and certainly, if you have a lot student loan, it is going to be even harder.
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Total debt does not matter when getting a mortgage, it's the back end DTI that needs to remain between 36-43% for conventional or FHA mortgages. You could have $1M in student loans and be making $90k but if you're on a non-standard repayment plan (ie your favorite IBR, ICR, PAYE, etc...) it's the monthly payment that is taken into consideration when running FHA certs and/or manually underwriting.
 
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confettiflyer said:
Total debt does not matter when getting a mortgage, it's the back end DTI that needs to remain between 36-43% for conventional or FHA mortgages. You could have $1M in student loans and be making $90k but if you're on a non-standard repayment plan (ie your favorite IBR, ICR, PAYE, etc...) it's the monthly payment that is taken into consideration when running FHA certs and/or manually underwriting.
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:thumbup:

Another strength of IBR - low required monthly obligation, but you can pay as much as you want, whenever you have extra money to spare.
 
confettiflyer said:
Total debt does not matter when getting a mortgage, it's the back end DTI that needs to remain between 36-43% for conventional or FHA mortgages. You could have $1M in student loans and be making $90k but if you're on a non-standard repayment plan (ie your favorite IBR, ICR, PAYE, etc...) it's the monthly payment that is taken into consideration when running FHA certs and/or manually underwriting.
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Yes but IBR will still take out about 11% of your back end ratio (I already took it down from 15% to account for the 150% of poverty level in the IBR calc). This means it begins to eat into your front end ratio which will reduce the maximum amount you can borrow. You might not even be at that limit in most areas of the country, but you probably will in California.
 
pezdispenser said:
Yes but IBR will still take out about 11% of your back end ratio (I already took it down from 15% to account for the 150% of poverty level in the IBR calc). This means it begins to eat into your front end ratio which will reduce the maximum amount you can borrow. You might not even be at that limit in most areas of the country, but you probably will in California.
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How the heck are you calculating front-end DTI? You don't include non-PITI payments when calculating it, so front-end DTI is fully a function of the amount borrowed, interest rate, and the hard expenses associated with property (taxes, insurance) all over gross income, before any deductions.
 
Adrienne2784 said:
Hi:) I am actually the pharmacist who appeared on that particular show and I noticed several hateful remarks made about me, my situation, and the general stupidity of anyone who is in my position. I just wanted to make a few things clear. First, the general attitude of many of the commentators regarding my short clip is aggressive and snotty at best. I especially take offense to one of the first comments indicating what a "loser" I must be and questioning my "defect" for not being able to find work for over 18 months. The simple explanation is that there are very limited jobs in my area of the country. I am in no way a loser, although I dare state that the person commenting that I am must himself be one. Second, my husband and I mortgaged a reasonable home and put well over 20% down. We also had no problem obtaining approval for a mortgage. Third, it is very common for anyone who is trying to obtain a professional level degree to owe this much in student loans, neither my husband nor myself are crazy or stupid in any way. In fact, if anyone actually watches the clip they will have a greater understanding of our true situation, which is that we are a high income-high debt household. Our emergency fund probably puts many to shame and we are proud to be the professionals that we are. Lastly, to the young woman who stated that she would never even date anyone who held any kind of debt, good luck Honey, you will be alone for a long time with the kind of standards you have set for yourself. My best advice to you, and the advice I believe Suze would give also, is to invest some serious cash into the best damn vibrator on the market because there isn't a man around who wants to date the kind of bitch you are. Best regards to all:)
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1) taking out 200K for a pharmd degree is crazy and TONS of people have a PharmD degree with less than 100K. Myself included. It's called being smart. Taking out 200K for a pharmd is stupid.

2) Alone? Not really my last boyfriend got his PharmD degree with no debt and he will be getting his MD degree with NO debt too. I have a date this weekend with a lawyer and he also graduated law school with NO debt and owns his own practice. It's call having standards and not dating people that don't know how to manage money. :laugh:

3) you just sound bitter and angry! LOL...can't blame you though...If I owe that much money and can't find work for 18 months I'll be crying too. LOL
 
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SHC1984 said:
1) taking out 200K for a pharmd degree is crazy and TONS of people have a PharmD degree with less than 100K. Myself included. It's called being smart. Taking out 200K for a pharmd is stupid.

2) Alone? Not really my last boyfriend got his PharmD degree with no debt and he will be getting his MD degree with NO debt too. I have a date this weekend with a lawyer and he also graduated law school with NO debt and owns his own practice. It's call having standards and not dating people that don't know how to manage money. :laugh:

3) you just sound bitter and angry! LOL...can't blame you though...If I owe that much money and can't find work for 18 months I'll be crying too. LOL
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So you're saying that an MD with $250K in loans does not know how to manage money? Where do you come up with these standards?
 
pinipig523 said:
So you're saying that an MD with $250K in loans does not know how to manage money? Where do you come up with these standards?
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I said PHARMD. MD I don't know I never was interested in getting one. However, some of my friends that went to UNC medical school graduated with much less than $250K...so it's possible.

I wasn't coming up with any standards...however, when some crazy women comes on here and tries to tell me I am wrong for wanting what I want then it's a problem.

She obviously knows she sucks in life so she is here insulting other people to justified her failures. That is all I am pointing out. If she didn't have any problems she wouldn't NOT be on the Suze O show. :laugh: TOO FUNNY.

She is very funny though...would not be surprised to see her on Jerry Springer too. HAHAHA
 
confettiflyer said:
How the heck are you calculating front-end DTI? You don't include non-PITI payments when calculating it, so front-end DTI is fully a function of the amount borrowed, interest rate, and the hard expenses associated with property (taxes, insurance) all over gross income, before any deductions.
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Because the back-end ratio includes the front-end ratio (all those housing expenses you listed) PLUS any other debt payments. It is not separate.

So if you go for a conventional mortgage with a front-end limit of 28% and back-end of 36%, and say your only other debt is the student loan on IBR whose monthly payment is 11% of your gross income, then your front-end ratio is effectively REDUCED to 36% - 11 % = 25%.

You can't go up to the maximum front-end of 28% because then when you add your 11% student loan payment, you will be at 39%, which is over the 36% back-end ratio for that mortgage product.

Of course you can just go for a mortgage product with higher limits such as FHA at 31%/43%. Because the gap is 12%, the front-end ratio will not be affected by an 11% student loan payment. However these mortgages tend to have higher interest rates or more fees to compensate for the higher risk.
 
pezdispenser said:
Because the back-end ratio includes the front-end ratio (all those housing expenses you listed) PLUS any other debt payments. It is not separate.

So if you go for a conventional mortgage with a front-end limit of 28% and back-end of 36%, and say your only other debt is the student loan on IBR whose monthly payment is 11% of your gross income, then your front-end ratio is effectively REDUCED to 36% - 11 % = 25%.

You can't go up to the maximum front-end of 28% because then when you add your 11% student loan payment, you will be at 39%, which is over the 36% back-end ratio for that mortgage product.

Of course you can just go for a mortgage product with higher limits such as FHA at 31%/43%. Because the gap is 12%, the front-end ratio will not be affected by an 11% student loan payment. However these mortgages tend to have higher interest rates or more fees to compensate for the higher risk.
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Okay, makes sense, was just phrased funny to me. Just to keep it clear for everyone else, front-end DTI is PITI only and what pezdispenser is saying is that the more debt you have on the back end, the less you can borrow on the front end since back-end includes front.

Okay maybe I just made it more complicated for everyone. In any case, consult a mortgage specialist or financial guru with your situation.

The other solution to the back-end-driving-front-end conundrum is a higher down payment on the house. Another "trick" is that since student loan payment plan recalculations lag behind tax returns, you could have a situation where it is January 2014 and your loan payment is based off the 2012 tax return but you could be dealing with a lender that will take most recent two pay stubs and use that to calculate DTI. So, if your income substantially went up and you've yet to file a 2013 tax return, you can take advantage of the spread.

I'm just full of advice today.
 
confettiflyer said:
Another "trick" is that since student loan payment plan recalculations lag behind tax returns, you could have a situation where it is January 2014 and your loan payment is based off the 2012 tax return but you could be dealing with a lender that will take most recent two pay stubs and use that to calculate DTI. So, if your income substantially went up and you've yet to file a 2013 tax return, you can take advantage of the spread.
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I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to post another thread but didn't want to attract the IBR trolls. :smuggrin:

I just got my paperwork to re-certify for IBR. It's due in 90 days (or 90 days from when it was dated in November) and requires my "most recent" tax return. So that would be my return for 2011 since I obviously haven't filed yet for 2012. This will be very advantageous for me, since I made WAY less in 2011 than I did in 2012. Am I misunderstanding how this works? My husband took care of everything when we enrolled in IBR, so I will admit my understanding is sketchy.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to post another thread but didn't want to attract the IBR trolls. :smuggrin:

I just got my paperwork to re-certify for IBR. It's due in 90 days (or 90 days from when it was dated in November) and requires my "most recent" tax return. So that would be my return for 2011 since I obviously haven't filed yet for 2012. This will be very advantageous for me, since I made WAY less in 2011 than I did in 2012. Am I misunderstanding how this works? My husband took care of everything when we enrolled in IBR, so I will admit my understanding is sketchy.
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I just recertified last month. Yes, that's how it works, and yes, it's advantageous. Basically that means most new grads will qualify for about 1.5 years after graduation, even if they're making a full salary shortly after graduation.
 
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All4MyDaughter said:
I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to post another thread but didn't want to attract the IBR trolls. :smuggrin:

I just got my paperwork to re-certify for IBR. It's due in 90 days (or 90 days from when it was dated in November) and requires my "most recent" tax return. So that would be my return for 2011 since I obviously haven't filed yet for 2012. This will be very advantageous for me, since I made WAY less in 2011 than I did in 2012. Am I misunderstanding how this works? My husband took care of everything when we enrolled in IBR, so I will admit my understanding is sketchy.
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Tax return is preferred because it has AGI, the Alternative Documentation of Income form (IBRWB-XIBR) that asked you to put your most recent pay stub was only needed for certain conditions (like 1st application into IBR, etc...) Plus, if you derive business income, tax return is technically more accurate.

I recertify next in December 2013 and will be submitting 2012 tax returns so through December 2014 my IBR payments reflect my final year as a student and the first half of my residency year. Going into 2015, my payments will reflect a 2013 tax return that will have 1/2 income as a resident, 1/2 as a FT practitioner.

So if I buy a house after 2 years of seasoning and work history in mid-2015, my IBR payment reflects a salary that is ~75% of my true, actual salary at that very moment, thus artificially deflating my back-end DTI that we've been discussing. So note to that person, find a lender that will take most recent pay stubs as income.

EDIT:
I reread the rules for the Alternative Documentation of Income form, you only turn it in under these 3 conditions:

YOU ARE REQUIRED to complete this form if you are repaying your Direct Loans under the Income Contingent Repayment (ICR) or the Income-Based Repayment (IBR)
Plan and:
 You are in your first year of repayment;
 You are in your second year of repayment and have been notified that alternative documentation of your income is required; or
 You have been notified that the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is unable to provide the U.S. Department of Education (the Department) with your Adjusted Gross
Income (AGI) or that of your spouse (if applicable).
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SoylentGreen said:
I just recertified last month. Yes, that's how it works, and yes, it's advantageous. Basically that means most new grads will qualify for about 1.5 years after graduation, even if they're making a full salary shortly after graduation.
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confettiflyer said:
Tax return is preferred because it has AGI, the Alternative Documentation of Income form (IBRWB-XIBR) that asked you to put your most recent pay stub was only needed for certain conditions (like 1st application into IBR, etc...) Plus, if you derive business income, tax return is technically more accurate.

I recertify next in December 2013 and will be submitting 2012 tax returns so through December 2014 my IBR payments reflect my final year as a student and the first half of my residency year. Going into 2015, my payments will reflect a 2013 tax return that will have 1/2 income as a resident, 1/2 as a FT practitioner.

So if I buy a house after 2 years of seasoning and work history in mid-2015, my IBR payment reflects a salary that is ~75% of my true, actual salary at that very moment, thus artificially deflating my back-end DTI that we've been discussing. So note to that person, find a lender that will take most recent pay stubs as income.

EDIT:
I reread the rules for the Alternative Documentation of Income form, you only turn it in under these 3 conditions:
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:thumbup: Thanks, guys.

I just interviewed yesterday for a job that qualifies for PSLF... Now I have more to think about...
 
confettiflyer said:
Another "trick" is that since student loan payment plan recalculations lag behind tax returns, you could have a situation where it is January 2014 and your loan payment is based off the 2012 tax return but you could be dealing with a lender that will take most recent two pay stubs and use that to calculate DTI. So, if your income substantially went up and you've yet to file a 2013 tax return, you can take advantage of the spread.

I'm just full of advice today.
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You stole my idea! :laugh: :thumbup:
 
Most lenders I dealt with wants the 2 most recent months pay stubs for mortgage approval. As the lending standards tightened after that whole mortgage bubble fiscal, it made sense to request latest info.

I agree that using IBR is a valid tactic for getting mortgage approval right after school (and may in fact a good idea in the immediate future) , I would caution the risk of becoming house poor. The back end ratio exist to ensure that you still have enough money to build a family, save for a retirement, go on vacation, have a some discretionary fun money. Also note buying a house early as a single carry significant risk of major plan alteration due to meeting opportunities and opposite sex.
 
Adrienne2784 said:
Hi:) I am actually the pharmacist who appeared on that particular show and I noticed several hateful remarks made about me, my situation, and the general stupidity of anyone who is in my position. I just wanted to make a few things clear. First, the general attitude of many of the commentators regarding my short clip is aggressive and snotty at best. I especially take offense to one of the first comments indicating what a "loser" I must be and questioning my "defect" for not being able to find work for over 18 months. The simple explanation is that there are very limited jobs in my area of the country. I am in no way a loser, although I dare state that the person commenting that I am must himself be one. Second, my husband and I mortgaged a reasonable home and put well over 20% down. We also had no problem obtaining approval for a mortgage. Third, it is very common for anyone who is trying to obtain a professional level degree to owe this much in student loans, neither my husband nor myself are crazy or stupid in any way. In fact, if anyone actually watches the clip they will have a greater understanding of our true situation, which is that we are a high income-high debt household. Our emergency fund probably puts many to shame and we are proud to be the professionals that we are. Lastly, to the young woman who stated that she would never even date anyone who held any kind of debt, good luck Honey, you will be alone for a long time with the kind of standards you have set for yourself. My best advice to you, and the advice I believe Suze would give also, is to invest some serious cash into the best damn vibrator on the market because there isn't a man around who wants to date the kind of bitch you are. Best regards to all:)
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I bet you're right, there are limited jobs in your area of the country . . . for "pharmacists" who don't actively have a license, that is.

The in-debt pharmacist woman from the Suze Orman show is named Adrienne Rain Savage aka Adrienne Rain Indihar. It's easy to confirm; she lists her appearances on the Suze show in her online resume. What this woman doesn't mention in her resume is that she was arrested for "terroristic threats" and "soliciting support," her mugshots (smiling in them, even) are easily found with a simple net search. Her pharmacist license was suspended in 2012 for 2 years, and she was fined $5000. For what, I don't know, and I doubt this woman with her web of lies would stand up and be truthful about what happened.

Maybe I don't have a good handle on the word "loser" but someone who loses her job, loses her license, makes "terrorist threats," fakes a sob story on national TV about how she -- woops! -- somehow inexplicably up and lost her job, can't get a new one, and then continues the lies on an online forum seems to be a pretty good definition. This fraud's true colors, the colors of a defensive attention-seeking lying scamming criminal, show in the quoted response above.

I am disappointed in Suze Orman. "Fear" didn't prevent this (former) pharmacist from getting employment. Mrs. Savage/Indihar is not "standing in her truth" as Suze often tells people to do.
 
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  • Wow
Reactions: 1 user
How did I miss this thread originally? I must have thought it was about boring finances or something. :laugh: Thank you for the update Member1987, why am I not at ALL surprised.
 
Not surprised at all. I'm a firm believer that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Make decisions after getting the info from both sides.
 
member19877373 said:
I bet you're right, there are limited jobs in your area of the country . . . for "pharmacists" who don't actively have a license, that is.

The in-debt pharmacist woman from the Suze Orman show is named Adrienne Rain Savage aka Adrienne Rain Indihar. It's easy to confirm; she lists her appearances on the Suze show in her online resume. What this woman doesn't mention in her resume is that she was arrested for "terroristic threats" and "soliciting support," her mugshots (smiling in them, even) are easily found with a simple net search. Her pharmacist license was suspended in 2012 for 2 years, and she was fined $5000. For what, I don't know, and I doubt this woman with her web of lies would stand up and be truthful about what happened.

Maybe I don't have a good handle on the word "loser" but someone who loses her job, loses her license, makes "terrorist threats," fakes a sob story on national TV about how she -- woops! -- somehow inexplicably up and lost her job, can't get a new one, and then continues the lies on an online forum seems to be a pretty good definition. This fraud's true colors, the colors of a defensive attention-seeking lying scamming criminal, show in the quoted response above.

I am disappointed in Suze Orman. "Fear" didn't prevent this (former) pharmacist from getting employment. Mrs. Savage/Indihar is not "standing in her truth" as Suze often tells people to do.
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Bam! Totally busted! Damn first thing that comes up on Google is her mug shot!

http://arre.st/AL-111165337
 
This is her public Linked In profile.


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/adrienne-savage/54/891/85

I wonder how carefully Barnes vetted her before she was hired, or who she knew on the staff. I also wonder why her husband's job was potentially in jeopardy.

Member1987, do you know her personally? If so, you don't need to say how.

ETA: After reading the whole thread, wowzers, how did A2784 not get banninated after post #97?
 
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member19877373 said:
I bet you're right, there are limited jobs in your area of the country . . . for "pharmacists" who don't actively have a license, that is.

The in-debt pharmacist woman from the Suze Orman show is named Adrienne Rain Savage aka Adrienne Rain Indihar. It's easy to confirm; she lists her appearances on the Suze show in her online resume. What this woman doesn't mention in her resume is that she was arrested for "terroristic threats" and "soliciting support," her mugshots (smiling in them, even) are easily found with a simple net search. Her pharmacist license was suspended in 2012 for 2 years, and she was fined $5000. For what, I don't know, and I doubt this woman with her web of lies would stand up and be truthful about what happened.

Maybe I don't have a good handle on the word "loser" but someone who loses her job, loses her license, makes "terrorist threats," fakes a sob story on national TV about how she -- woops! -- somehow inexplicably up and lost her job, can't get a new one, and then continues the lies on an online forum seems to be a pretty good definition. This fraud's true colors, the colors of a defensive attention-seeking lying scamming criminal, show in the quoted response above.
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I'm guessing the above has something to do with the whole unemployment thing...
I wonder what happens to IBR when you can't work because they took away your licence and/or are in jail?
Interesting thread.
 
UPDATE

Someone who posts on another board with me (not pharmacy-oriented, BTW) claims to work with her! :eek: S/he said that Adrienne was hired because the director had worked with her in the past, and 3 people had quit in less than a week at their busiest store. This poster was aware that Adrienne's license was on probation, but not why until s/he saw my posts. S/he knows Adrienne's husband too, and says his job isn't in jeopardy, at least as far as s/he knew.
 
Please note that none of the things stated about Ms. Savage are true in any sense. I am Ms. Savage and my license was never suspended. It was put on probation without any restrictions, meaning that I can and still do practice pharmacy and am able to be a PIC, pharmacy manager, etc. and am not in any way restricted from dispensing any substance. The truth of the matter is that I made a very stupid mistake and I owned up to that mistake. I will not be on probation for much longer, only 3 more months at which time my license will revert to active. I do work now as a pharmacist and actually took a better paying job recently after leaving a pharmacy management position. As for terrorist threats and being in jail, etc. I do also own that I was charged with but never convicted of anything. In fact, in my whole life I have had only a speeding ticket until I made a mistake in leaving a very mean message on my mother in law's answering machine. In fact, the person who posted these things about me is in fact my mother in law, whom I have a restraining order placed against. It is sad that so many of you chimed in with nasty comments when in actuality I and my husband both are hard-working healthcare professionals who want nothing more than to just go to work, enjoy life, and God-willing have children one day. I wish everyone who is a student or a practicing healthcare professional nothing but the best because it is such a hard job to do and it does cost so much money to do it. I made some mistakes in my life just like everyone will. I have admitted to those mistakes but please don't think for a moment that the post from my mother in law (member19877373), whom I will not do the disservice to name in full as she has done me, is at all true. I have moved on from my past mistakes in the pharmacy and in speaking to her and I hope that she can move on as well and earn the doctorate in nursing that she has been trying to earn. I wish nothing but the best for all of you whom posted about me without really knowing the truth but I also ask that you all bear in mind that not everything you read is real and that there is a person on the other end of the computer screen reading these horrible remarks about him or herself.
 
BMBiology said:
I hate to break the bad news to students but when you own $250,000 in student loans, no bank is going to lend you $400,000 for a mortgage. It just doesn't make sense. This is not just my opinion, there are many articles written about this. Here's an example:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/03/16/cant-get-a-mortgage-blame-your-student-loans/

If you want to move out of the city and live where it is cheap, that's up to you to decide. The point here is that many students only think of the positives and do not think of the risk they are taking and the consequences of borrowing > $200,000 in student loans
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If you enter into an IBR payment within your first few years after graduation you monthly payment obligation will be low in comparison to your take home. It is actually quite easy to get approved within the first few years. Either way and IBR payment will rarely exceed $900-$1200 per month at our income level and represents a small percentage of the total net income and makes it very easy to qualify. If you are on a 10 year repayment with $250K in debt, you will most likely not qualify.

I dont know why anyone would be looking at a $400K house on a pharmacist's salary, I guess if you were dual income pharmacists it would make sense, but seems like just a waste.
 
kvl1027 said:
If you enter into an IBR payment within your first few years after graduation you monthly payment obligation will be low in comparison to your take home. It is actually quite easy to get approved within the first few years. Either way and IBR payment will rarely exceed $900-$1200 per month at our income level and represents a small percentage of the total net income and makes it very easy to qualify. If you are on a 10 year repayment with $250K in debt, you will most likely not qualify.

I dont know why anyone would be looking at a $400K house on a pharmacist's salary, I guess if you were dual income pharmacists it would make sense, but seems like just a waste.
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(1) Yes, IBR allows you to pay less per month but in the long term, you will be paying a lot more interest. Your payment will not be much within the first couple of years but after you have earned a full pharmacist salary, your monthly payment will jump.

(2) I don't know where you are getting this, "IBR payment will rarely exceed 900-1200 per month at our income level". You know as your salary goes up, your payment also goes up right? You know if you married to someone who doesn't have student loans and also makes a good income, your monthly payment will jump right?

(3) I also don't know where you are getting this, "(IBR) represents a small percentage of the total net income". You are obligated to pay 15% x [adjusted gross income (for most people it is pre-taxed salary - 401 k contribution) - poverty line] with your after taxed ("take home") salary. For example if your adjusted gross income is 100 k, take 100 k - 12 k (poverty line for single adult) = 88 k then take 88 k x 0.15 = 13.2 k a year. If you live in a state like California where there is also a state income tax and after health insurances/dental, your take home salary is about 65% of what you make so that's 65 k. Lets see 13.2 k/65 k = 20% of your take home salary every month for the next 25 years!

(4) Whatever student loan that is left over after 25 years, you would have to pay tax on it. Expect to pay around 25-30% tax so if 100 k is "forgiven", you would pay 25-30 k in taxes

IRB is an option for people who can't afford the 10 year standard plan but in the long run, you will be paying a lot more interest. Here're some numbers based on 200 k in student loans, 6.8% interest rate, starting annual income is 120 k with an increase of 2% annually:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr.phtml

(1) 10 year plan: total paid $276 k (76 k is from interest)
(2) 25 year IBR: total paid $394 k (194 k is from interest; yes, almost 100% of your original principle of 200k).

As you can see, you will be paying a lot more money with the 25 year IBR and guess what? there won't be any thing left over to be "forgiven" after 25 years! Yup, you will be paying the original principle plus 25 years of interest!
 
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I dont know why anyone would be looking at a $400K house on a pharmacist's salary, I guess if you were dual income pharmacists it would make sense, but seems like just a waste.
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$400k is a bargain...where are you, kansas?
 
$400k should buy you 3000+ square feet in the burbs just about anywhere but the west coast and the northeast.
 
BMBiology said:
(1) Yes, IBR allows you to pay less per month but in the long term, you will be paying a lot more interest. Your payment will not be much within the first couple of years but after you have earned a full pharmacist salary, your monthly payment will jump.

(2) I don't know where you are getting this, "IBR payment will rarely exceed 900-1200 per month at our income level". You know as your salary goes up, your payment also goes up right? You know if you married to someone who doesn't have student loans and also makes a good income, your monthly payment will jump right?

(3) I also don't know where you are getting this, "(IBR) represents a small percentage of the total net income". You are obligated to pay 15% x [adjusted gross income (for most people it is pre-taxed salary - 401 k contribution) - poverty line] with your after taxed ("take home") salary. For example if your adjusted gross income is 100 k, take 100 k - 12 k (poverty line for single adult) = 88 k then take 88 k x 0.15 = 13.2 k a year. If you live in a state like California where there is also a state income tax and after health insurances/dental, your take home salary is about 65% of what you make so that's 65 k. Lets see 13.2 k/65 k = 20% of your take home salary every month for the next 25 years!

(4) Whatever student loan that is left over after 25 years, you would have to pay tax on it. Expect to pay around 25-30% tax so if 100 k is "forgiven", you would pay 25-30 k in taxes

IRB is an option for people who can't afford the 10 year standard plan but in the long run, you will be paying a lot more interest. Here're some numbers based on 200 k in student loans, 6.8% interest rate, starting annual income is 120 k with an increase of 2% annually:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/ibr.phtml

(1) 10 year plan: total paid $276 k (76 k is from interest)
(2) 25 year IBR: total paid $394 k (194 k is from interest; yes, almost 100% of your original principle of 200k).

As you can see, you will be paying a lot more money with the 25 year IBR and guess what? there won't be any thing left over to be "forgiven" after 25 years! Yup, you will be paying the original principle plus 25 years of interest!
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Did you actually listen to anything I said?

1.) It will be low enough to get you approved for a mortgage. I never said it wouldn't jump when your salaray increases.

2.) IBR for a pharmacist will rarely exceed $900-$1200/month, because how many pharmacists do you know with a AGI over $95-100K. If you do, let me know where these jobs are. If you are utilizing 401k, Flex spending, mortgage interect deductions your AGI will go down. If you are married to someone without student loans a good CPA will recommend that you file separately as it will be more beneficial financially in this case. BTW thanks for doing the math for me and further proving my point (13.2K/year, I believe this falls into my arbitrary range) So you spent a lot of time doing math to prove me wrong, which actually falls into my pre-mentioned parameters providing fuel for my argument, great job!

3.) IBR does reflect a small percent of your total income, if it is %15 of you AGI it is much less than %15 of total income, so I'm right again. And even %15 directly would not be a "large" percentage of your income. So, I'm right again.

4.) You will pay 25-30% of the amount forgiven, not exceeding your total net worth. (there are ways around this)

I'm not saying you are wrong. You present valid facts, but not valid arguments.
 
kvl1027 said:
Did you actually listen to anything I said?

1.) It will be low enough to get you approved for a mortgage. I never said it wouldn't jump when your salaray increases.

2.) IBR for a pharmacist will rarely exceed $900-$1200/month, because how many pharmacists do you know with a AGI over $95-100K. If you do, let me know where these jobs are. If you are utilizing 401k, Flex spending, mortgage interect deductions your AGI will go down. If you are married to someone without student loans a good CPA will recommend that you file separately as it will be more beneficial financially in this case. BTW thanks for doing the math for me and further proving my point (13.2K/year, I believe this falls into my arbitrary range) So you spent a lot of time doing math to prove me wrong, which actually falls into my pre-mentioned parameters providing fuel for my argument, great job!

3.) IBR does reflect a small percent of your total income, if it is %15 of you AGI it is much less than %15 of total income, so I'm right again. And even %15 directly would not be a "large" percentage of your income. So, I'm right again.

4.) You will pay 25-30% of the amount forgiven, not exceeding your total net worth. (there are ways around this)

I'm not saying you are wrong. You present valid facts, but not valid arguments.
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I think you got some facts wrong.

(1) Mortgage interest deduction has no affect on your adjusted gross income (AGI). Look it up.

(2) Even with maxing out my 401 k (17.5 k this year) and putting money in my flex spending account, my AGI (and I am sure other pharmacists' AGI too) is still well above 100 k. So either you are not making a good pharmacist salary or again, you have miscalculated.

(3) Your spouse can file her/his tax separately but you would loss the tax benefits of filling together (the same amount btw)

I look at things as "after-taxed" money and I think paying 20% of your after-taxed salary to the government every month for the next 25 years is pretty costly. I guess you don't think so. I also think paying interest that accumulates to 100% of your original principle is also pretty costly but I guess you don't.
 
I was right that one would likely get approved for a mortgage if entering into IBR and applying for a mortgage in the first two years.

I was right that payments rarely exceed $900-$1200/month. As you have so diligently proven with you wicked math skills.

What is your definition of "Well above" 100k? 17.5 + 2500 in flex is 20K. How much more than 20k do you make? And if it is significant, would you say this reflects the mean across the country, because I believe the mean is less than 120K. Well above 100k could mean 109K, but its not greater than 110K otherwise you would have said that. If it is 109, then your monthly payment would be just over $1300k, but you would be the exception. I think most on here would agree that their AGI falls below 109, and subsequently their IBR payment "rarely" would exceed $1200.

I guess my point is...what's your point? What were you arguing in the first place? What in my comment moved you to create a numerical bullet pointing of my post? What did I post that was so grossly inaccurate?

The only argument that you have is that mortgage interest deduction does not affect your AGI, well done. Wikipedia strikes again!
 
Don't be so defensive. I wasn't addressing your post specifically but I wanted others to not just look at the short term values of IBR but also the long term values as well.

Your argument is not practical. What 26 year old kid who has 200 k in student loans going to put 17.5 k in his 401 k? 2.5 k in his flex spending account (is he even going to use that much health care in one year?).

And yes, it's important to base your opinion on facts.
 
BMBiology said:
Don't be so defensive. I wasn't addressing your post specifically but I wanted others to not just look at the short term values of IBR but also the long term values as well.

Your argument is not practical. What 26 year old kid who has 200 k in student loans going to put 17.5 k in his 401 k? 2.5 k in his flex spending account (is he even going to use that much health care in one year?).

And yes, it's important to base your opinion on facts.
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I don't see how anyone could max out pre tax deducitons like 401k with a student loan of over 1k per month unless you literally had no life and no bills. IBR with PSLF is a very attractive option for those with heavy loan burden, and will certainly help one qualify for a loan.
 
When I made my first payment I owed $138,081.91, after paying $6k (I do $1000 every paycheck) it is only down to $133,887.93. This interest stuff sucks. But I signed up for "auto pay" and got my rate down to 6.55 instead of 6.8, so that's better than nothing. I should be done with this crap in about 6 years hopefully. IBR is definitely not needed unless you've got significantly more debt. And if you do... why? I did 4 years of private pharm school.

I'm not maxing my 401k, but I'm doing 10% contribution for now. If the market wasn't so great this year I probably wouldn't be contributing that much, since that 6.55% loan might offer a better return, but the pre-tax vs. after tax $ makes for a little bit of math involved, and I'm not that concerned with it at the moment. I definitely wouldn't put that much money into FSA/HSA at my age. Well, at my age I don't need my own insurance anyway (thanks Dad).
 
kvl1027 said:
Did you actually listen to anything I said?

4.) You will pay 25-30% of the amount forgiven, not exceeding your total net worth. (there are ways around this)

I'm not saying you are wrong. You present valid facts, but not valid arguments.
Click to expand...

Love your posts kvl .. but on this one you are giving bmb too much credit ...

RE #4 .. you will pay 25-30% of the amount forgiven or 25-30% your total on the books assets , **whichever is lower** .. which makes more clear the reality of the situation and benefit of ibr
 
I'm exhuming this thread because I was Googling something else, and found out that Ms. Indihar permanently surrendered her Alabama license in 2015, although the website doesn't say exactly why, and her (ex?) husband also lost his license in 2015 for drinking Hydromet cough syrup out of the bottle in front of a customer, and claiming (falsely) that it was a joke with his technician. In 2018, he was also arrested for domestic violence, although that website doesn't say against whom.

Wow.
 
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rph3664 said:
I'm exhuming this thread because I was Googling something else, and found out that Ms. Indihar permanently surrendered her Alabama license in 2015, although the website doesn't say exactly why, and her (ex?) husband also lost his license in 2015 for drinking Hydromet cough syrup out of the bottle in front of a customer, and claiming (falsely) that it was a joke with his technician. In 2018, he was also arrested for domestic violence, although that website doesn't say against whom.

Wow.
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Never saw this thread before, looks entertaining! Thanks for bumping it!
 
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rph3664 said:
I'm exhuming this thread because I was Googling something else, and found out that Ms. Indihar permanently surrendered her Alabama license in 2015, although the website doesn't say exactly why, and her (ex?) husband also lost his license in 2015 for drinking Hydromet cough syrup out of the bottle in front of a customer, and claiming (falsely) that it was a joke with his technician. In 2018, he was also arrested for domestic violence, although that website doesn't say against whom.

Wow.
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Thanks for the update! Craziness. Which goes to show, there is always "more to the story" than these callers to Ramsey or Orman let on (or the posters here who say they were expelled for no reason.....)
 
Pharmacists stealing drugs never made sense to me since we all know where to go if we want to see a crooked doctor.
 
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I hadn't mentioned this earlier because I had totally forgotten about it, but when this thread was active the first time, Mr. Indihar somehow found out my real name and phone number, and called me, claiming he was calling from a lawyer's office, at 7:15pm on a weekend night! I was so shocked, I don't even remember how I reacted and all I wanted to know was how he found out who I was.

If he had contacted me again, I would have called the police. I'm glad I don't live anywhere near Alabama, that's for sure.
 
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LOL.

I would have responded, "what's your point?"
 
rph3664 said:
I hadn't mentioned this earlier because I had totally forgotten about it, but when this thread was active the first time, Mr. Indihar somehow found out my real name and phone number, and called me, claiming he was calling from a lawyer's office, at 7:15pm on a weekend night! I was so shocked, I don't even remember how I reacted and all I wanted to know was how he found out who I was.

If he had contacted me again, I would have called the police. I'm glad I don't live anywhere near Alabama, that's for sure.
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He wanted you to pay off his debt.
 
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This appears to be how Ms. Savage-Indihar supports herself nowadays.

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Adrienne's Closet

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