I am a 4th year AUC student and have been planning on ranking Kern Medical Center as my first choice for surgery residency. I just learned that the residency program has been put on probation for numerous serious violations that aren't likely to be corrected in the next two years (meaning they will lose their accreditation). I have really put all my eggs in this basket, so I am not sure what to do. Does anyone have experience with applying to a program on probation? Would it be possible for an IMG to find a PGY-3 position somewhere else when the program closes? I can't get any info out of the KMC Chair, as she denies that they are going on probation, but I had someone senior in their Academic Affairs office show me the letter. The fact that she is blatantly lying to me and other students is also concerning. But the program is a cake walk - it has the best work hours and least stress of any program that I have looked at. Please help!
Kern Medical Center Probation
- Thread starter vendiv
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2010
- Messages
- 71
- Reaction score
- 0
They are under NO obligation to find another program to finish the training you STARTED and should have been able to FINISH there. They will most likely leave you high and dry when they close and if they do, you will have a heck of a time finding another place to finish your training. I wouldn't do it, IMHO.
As for hours and stress, we are talking Surgery here; I would question the academic rigors of a surgical program classified as a "cakewalk" as well as the capabilities of any surgical resident graduating from it .
As for hours and stress, we are talking Surgery here; I would question the academic rigors of a surgical program classified as a "cakewalk" as well as the capabilities of any surgical resident graduating from it .
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2006
- Messages
- 23,867
- Reaction score
- 46,219
KMC surgery was not on probation when this post was written, but subsequently was placed on it. As for the question of the academic rigors or capabilities of graduates from the program I would say don't base your judgment on a student who really has no idea of what the residents do (the students are on call only a few times per rotation, don't stay overnight prior to wednesday afternoon conferences, and do not do nearly as much as I did as a student-many have just not had the preparation to be able to do more).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2010
- Messages
- 12
- Reaction score
- 0
So, the most recent announcement is that the program actually did go on probation. Any ideas/insights why? (http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/reports/probationaryStatus.asp?mode=p)
For those in the know, a rundown of the pro's/con's of the program would be nice as well, particularly the faculty/program leadership, operative experience, educational experience, location/locale and working conditions.
Thanks!
For those in the know, a rundown of the pro's/con's of the program would be nice as well, particularly the faculty/program leadership, operative experience, educational experience, location/locale and working conditions.
Thanks!
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2006
- Messages
- 23,867
- Reaction score
- 46,219
Word came down after my post. All applicants were notified. Probably about the same time the residents were. As for why, comes down to a few things: Change in program director and overall decrease in the number of faculty since the last review, problems with overnight radiology support (for reads and for certain tests), no dedicated conference room.
Program pros: The faculty treat the residents well and allow a high degree of autonomy (but are available when needed and will step in if you are not doing something right). The operative experience begins as early as day 1 and progresses with your abilities. Residents have been complimented on their abilities while on outside rotations, with "beyond their level" often being said. Because it is a county institution, the pathology we see is often advanced and unusual, meaning you learn how to deal with the difficult cases and not just the easy stuff. The program director genuinely cares about our education. Bakersfield is a smaller city, but there are good restaurants and bars, the usual stores for shopping, an arena and a theater for performances, and a 1 to 2 hr car trip will take you to mountains, woods, beaches, wine country, big city, skiing, rafting, skydiving, whatever. Because we always get two weekend days off in a row (twice a month), we have plenty of time to take advantage. We are typically work hours compliant (the 16 hr rule for interns has been a challenge on the weekends when rounds with the attending go too long) and there are rotations where you won't even get close to 80 hrs/week. Chief year is different in that the two fifth year residents each run a general surgery service for the year. This means running a clinic two afternoons a week, scheduling elective cases when we want (depending on attending availability of course), leading fellow residents and students, making decisions on inpatients, and backing up the night float resident (home call which can anything from zero calls to all night operating, depending on what comes in). Basically you spend the year practicing being an attending. The pay starts off at the lower end of the spectrum, but between the raises built in for advancing a year and the low cost of living you are a lot better off than people in other areas (add in some neurosurgery moonlighting and you can live it up).
Program cons: It is a county program in a county that doesn't have a ton of money, which is why there is an issue with radiology, and why the hospital is sometimes "full" (physical beds exist but no staff for them) which backs things up in the ED. Because they are cheap, the hospital implemented an EMR system that is slow, has issues, and generally pisses most people off. The program director is new to being a director, and the coordinator is new to being a coordinator, so there are kinks that are being worked out. We do a lot of open surgery because of the types of patients we get, so beside choles/appys the lap experience is less. The educational conferences are mainly resident driven (besides grand rounds and a few other exceptions) so the quality varies. If you need to be spoon fed in order to learn you won't do well. The hospital is old so there are variations in temperature. The food in the caf is hit or miss and is repetitive. There is a chance you could contract coccidiomycosis while living here.
Would I come here again if I had a do over-absolutely. My fellow residents, faculty, and ancillary staff have become my dysfunctional family and I will miss this place when I leave. I am graduating this year and feel confident I will be able to tackle all the typical general surgery stuff I will see when I start working. As for the rest, I will either learn from people I work with, or choose to send it to specialists.
Would I recommend it to students at this time. It depends. Some people would probably be really unhappy here. Those who like to ease into things and have a lot of structured learning. Those who feel are too good to wheel a patient to radiology or the OR (sometimes the quickest way to get things done is to do it yourself-or send a student/resident). Those who need gourmet food daily and aren't willing to provide it themselves. Those who want to do bench or prospective randomized research-really difficult to get that kind of stuff done here (it took a month and a half to hear back from the IRB about a retrospective chart review study). Those who place a lot of value on noteriety and big names. Those who can't handle working in a county system where things can take more time to get done. Those who need pimping and malignancy to force them to study.
For someone who otherwise thinks the program is a nice fit, I would say don't worry too much about the probation unless you are really set on a competitive fellowship. The chances the program would be shut down in the next five years is miniscule. The new contract for nighttime radiology reads goes into effect next month. They are looking for new faculty. Will things change fast enough to come off probation in November when we are reviewed again, I don't know. But I doubt that the RRC would close a program that is making positive changes.
Program pros: The faculty treat the residents well and allow a high degree of autonomy (but are available when needed and will step in if you are not doing something right). The operative experience begins as early as day 1 and progresses with your abilities. Residents have been complimented on their abilities while on outside rotations, with "beyond their level" often being said. Because it is a county institution, the pathology we see is often advanced and unusual, meaning you learn how to deal with the difficult cases and not just the easy stuff. The program director genuinely cares about our education. Bakersfield is a smaller city, but there are good restaurants and bars, the usual stores for shopping, an arena and a theater for performances, and a 1 to 2 hr car trip will take you to mountains, woods, beaches, wine country, big city, skiing, rafting, skydiving, whatever. Because we always get two weekend days off in a row (twice a month), we have plenty of time to take advantage. We are typically work hours compliant (the 16 hr rule for interns has been a challenge on the weekends when rounds with the attending go too long) and there are rotations where you won't even get close to 80 hrs/week. Chief year is different in that the two fifth year residents each run a general surgery service for the year. This means running a clinic two afternoons a week, scheduling elective cases when we want (depending on attending availability of course), leading fellow residents and students, making decisions on inpatients, and backing up the night float resident (home call which can anything from zero calls to all night operating, depending on what comes in). Basically you spend the year practicing being an attending. The pay starts off at the lower end of the spectrum, but between the raises built in for advancing a year and the low cost of living you are a lot better off than people in other areas (add in some neurosurgery moonlighting and you can live it up).
Program cons: It is a county program in a county that doesn't have a ton of money, which is why there is an issue with radiology, and why the hospital is sometimes "full" (physical beds exist but no staff for them) which backs things up in the ED. Because they are cheap, the hospital implemented an EMR system that is slow, has issues, and generally pisses most people off. The program director is new to being a director, and the coordinator is new to being a coordinator, so there are kinks that are being worked out. We do a lot of open surgery because of the types of patients we get, so beside choles/appys the lap experience is less. The educational conferences are mainly resident driven (besides grand rounds and a few other exceptions) so the quality varies. If you need to be spoon fed in order to learn you won't do well. The hospital is old so there are variations in temperature. The food in the caf is hit or miss and is repetitive. There is a chance you could contract coccidiomycosis while living here.
Would I come here again if I had a do over-absolutely. My fellow residents, faculty, and ancillary staff have become my dysfunctional family and I will miss this place when I leave. I am graduating this year and feel confident I will be able to tackle all the typical general surgery stuff I will see when I start working. As for the rest, I will either learn from people I work with, or choose to send it to specialists.
Would I recommend it to students at this time. It depends. Some people would probably be really unhappy here. Those who like to ease into things and have a lot of structured learning. Those who feel are too good to wheel a patient to radiology or the OR (sometimes the quickest way to get things done is to do it yourself-or send a student/resident). Those who need gourmet food daily and aren't willing to provide it themselves. Those who want to do bench or prospective randomized research-really difficult to get that kind of stuff done here (it took a month and a half to hear back from the IRB about a retrospective chart review study). Those who place a lot of value on noteriety and big names. Those who can't handle working in a county system where things can take more time to get done. Those who need pimping and malignancy to force them to study.
For someone who otherwise thinks the program is a nice fit, I would say don't worry too much about the probation unless you are really set on a competitive fellowship. The chances the program would be shut down in the next five years is miniscule. The new contract for nighttime radiology reads goes into effect next month. They are looking for new faculty. Will things change fast enough to come off probation in November when we are reviewed again, I don't know. But I doubt that the RRC would close a program that is making positive changes.
