Ivy League Pre-Med vs Good Non-Ivy League School

[quickmafs]

Hi SDN-

I've shadowed a few different specialties throughout high school, and I'm fully convinced that orthopedic surgery is right for me as a specialty. I've read that these specialties are super competitive and require the right connections to get into. This makes me really worried if going to the wrong undergrad institution will prevent me from making the right connections to land into a sweet residency in my dream specialty.
I got accepted into Caltech early action, and I thought everything was well until I read more into the school. I've read that Caltech is impossible to get a high GPA in,the school lacks a reputation(who has heard of it outside of Big Bang Theory?), and that the students are unhappier than at Cornell. I worry that I will not get into an elite medical school from Caltech, which would make it very very tough for me to match into an elite urban residency with orthopedic surgery position...

Should I apply to Harvard/Yale/etc. or some Ivy League with name brand reputation so I am not screwed as a pre-med? I'm starting to have regrets applying to Caltech and not somewhere better

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[leavingjob]

Did my undergrad at caltech and went to CMU for grad school. The school has a very high reputation, although maybe not in the general public. Certainly possible to get good grades there, but if your main plan is med school, then there definitely are easier schools out there.

 

[aldol16]

I don't know of many students who went to CalTech and ended up in med school - probably because the group that goes to CalTech is pretty self-selective and it's a really small class. But there are many students from MIT, a comparable peer school, in med school so no, it's not impossible. Focus on getting into med school. There are way too many factors to take into account for residency - you can't be thinking about that at this stage.

 

[Master Thinker]

Undergraduate prestige does not matter much. Top 20 schools do prefer students from upper-level universities, but I doubt going to a state school and doing well there will hurt your chances.

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

Undergraduate prestige does not matter much. Top 20 schools do prefer students from upper-level universities, but I doubt going to a state school and doing well there will hurt your chances.

CalTech isn't a state school...

It is one of the best undergraduate institutions in the US, and has some of the best engineering/hard science programs in the world.

 

[Master Thinker]

CalTech isn't a state school...

It is one of the best undergraduate institutions in the US, and has some of the best engineering/hard science programs in the world.

My bad, as a Midwest dweller, I am far removed from the CA scene.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Cal Tech is a very elite Math/Engineering type of school, comparable to MIT.

If you want your GPA to be on point for med, though, I'd stay away from any engineering type major.

 

[Lucca]

Moving to hsdn

 

[moisne]

If you want your GPA to be on point for med, though, I'd stay away from any engineering type major.

Unless ur good at math.

And to op - your undergrad doesn't matter... it doesn't matter your school nor your major. (Go for art history if you want)‍♀️


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Unless ur good at math.

And to op - your undergrad doesn't matter... it doesn't matter your school nor your major. (Go for art history if you want)‍♀️


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It's not really about the math. It's about a needless quantity of added work and invested time beyond what is required for med school. Unless you want to waste your undergrad years with a doctorate level of effort, I see no reason to deal with heat transfer and organic chemistry. You'll have plenty of time for no-lifing later.

 

[moisne]

It's not really about the math. It's about a needless quantity of added work and invested time beyond what is required for med school. Unless you want to waste your undergrad years with a doctorate level of effort, I see no reason to deal with heat transfer and organic chemistry. You'll have plenty of time for no-lifing later.

Organic chemistry is a pre req for Med school.

Heat transfer is easy. Engineering is better for ppl who hates memorizing and good at numbers. I spent way more time studying in some anatomy elective class than my heat transfer class.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Organic chemistry is a pre req for Med school.

Heat transfer is easy. Engineering is better for ppl who hates memorizing and good at numbers. I spent way more time studying in some anatomy elective class than my heat transfer class.


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Man, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I see that your condescending tone is entirely intentional.

Sadly, the haughtiness backfired on you in the form of a pretty elementary misinterpretation. What percentage of people on this site do you believe are unaware that organic chemistry is a prereq for med?

I was quite obviously using two courses as a shorthand for the broader concept of merging of two largely unrelated but time-consuming curricula in pre-med (organic) and engineering (heat transfer).

Make sense?

Also, nobody is impressed by your math prowess, whether actual or imagined on the basis of a weak undergrad. If I wanted to compete in the dorktastic sweepstakes, I could talk about being a mathlete, being one off a perfect score on the math part of the DAT without studying for that section, blah blah blah, and I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site who would run circles around me in that department.

So again, you're off-base to assume anything about the math skills of someone who would disagree with you on this topic - it's that med school is a huge pain in the ass and taking a very serious non-medical curriculum in undergrad could be seen as a waste of valuable time to spend on fitness, friends, family, etc. You're free to disagree, but stop being a prick about it.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I went to a state school and am an Orthopaedic surgeon. Your college doesn’t matter, what you do in med school does. That’s it.


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[moisne]

Man, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I see that your condescending tone is entirely intentional

I was quite obviously using two courses as a shorthand for the broader concept of merging of two largely unrelated but time-consuming curricula in pre-med (organic) and engineering (heat transfer).

1. You said who wants to deal with ochem - answer is: every pre med student
2. Time consuming is relative. Some people (esp if math so easy for you) would do much better in heat transfer than a class such as ethics/genetics/history... etc
3. Less haughty/condescending and more of a "different ppl with different skill set will view certain classes easier than others." I'm 100% certain had I majored in bio or English or history, I would have had a much lower GPA

Lastly and irrelevantly, perfect score on any standardized test in math isn't exactly impressive... the DAT barely touched trig.

I am confused, however, why you would list heat transfer as a difficult course while I specifically said "if you are good at math..." - if your math skills are up to par, you hardly need to study for that class. You maybe use about 5 equations and then you can forget everything and just re-derive it. Which is why, engineering is a great major for ppl who are better at numbers and not so great at memorization/English/history/etc.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

1. You said who wants to deal with ochem - answer is: every pre med student
2. Time consuming is relative. Some people (esp if math so easy for you) would do much better in heat transfer than a class such as ethics/genetics/history... etc
3. Less haughty/condescending and more of a "different ppl with different skill set will view certain classes easier than others." I'm 100% certain had I majored in bio or English or history, I would have had a much lower GPA

Lastly and irrelevantly, perfect score on any standardized test in math isn't exactly impressive... the DAT barely touched trig.

I am confused, however, why you would list heat transfer as a difficult course while I specifically said "if you are good at math..." - if your math skills are up to par, you hardly need to study for that class. You maybe use about 5 equations and then you can forget everything and just re-derive it. Which is why, engineering is a great major for ppl who are better at numbers and not so great at memorization/English/history/etc.


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Not sure where you get the idea that I was trying to impress anyone re: mathematical prowess considering I emphasized with bolded letters that there were likely a good number of people on this site who could show me up in that area. The point is that the baseline for math aptitude around here is not the baseline for the general population. Unless you are going after the Hodge conjecture or something along those lines, nobody on this site is going to be moved by your math capabilities. People who get into STEM doctorate programs can handle engineering majors. Many of us consistently get 99th percentile scores in math sections of tests or were math tutors in undergrad or what have you.

So clearly my point has nothing to do with capability. Yes, an engineering major is easier for someone who is good at math than for someone who isn't. Again, most of us won't have any substantial problems with engineering classes. You seem to really want the world to understand that you're in that group, too. And good for you. Who's the smart cookie? You are!

None of that does anything to mitigate my point. If you would genuinely have more free time going through your school's engineering major vs a typical social studies major, then either your engineering department is cc level, your social studies departments produce unnecessarily burdensome curricula, or you have some sort of mental block that prevents you from processing straightforward, low-level information at a normal pace.

 

[moisne]

Not sure where you get the idea that I was trying to impress anyone re: mathematical prowess considering I emphasized with bolded letters that there were likely a good number of people on this site who could show me up in that area. The point is that the baseline for math aptitude around here is not the baseline for the general population. Unless you are going after the Hodge conjecture or something along those lines, nobody on this site is going to be moved by your math capabilities. People who get into STEM doctorate programs can handle engineering majors. Many of us consistently get 99th percentile scores in math sections of tests or were math tutors in undergrad or what have you.

So clearly my point has nothing to do with capability. Yes, an engineering major is easier for someone who is good at math than for someone who isn't. Again, most of us won't have any substantial problems with engineering classes. You seem to really want the world to understand that you're in that group, too. And good for you. Who's the smart cookie? You are!

None of that does anything to mitigate my point. If you would genuinely have more free time going through your school's engineering major vs a typical social studies major, then either your engineering department is cc level, your social studies departments produce unnecessarily burdensome curricula, or you have some sort of mental block that prevents you from processing straightforward, low-level information at a normal pace.

Not at all lol

It's simply different skills of the individual - which is a concept you seem to fail to understand. Is it really hard to understand that some people would find engineering easier than another major? -00-

You've been the only one throwing out your "qualification" and been attempting to bash mine - with very poor/failed assumptions.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Not at all lol

It's simply different skills of the individual - which is a concept you seem to fail to understand. Is it really hard to understand that some people would find engineering easier than another major? -00-

You've been the only one throwing out your "qualification" and been attempting to bash mine - with very poor/failed assumptions.


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Hah, c'mon now! Any third party who reads this can determine who is being haughty and who is not. I've spent more than enough time mitigating my own abilities, while on the other hand, your attitude is on display for the world to see. Just own it. You are the chosen one, and don't let us rubes on SDN forget it.

I understand full well that some people have different gifts than others, and I also understand that even the world's fastest runners will have an easier time picking up a cantaloupe than running a 4 minute mile. Even the greatest strength athletes will have an easier time running the 40 in 15 seconds versus a 950 lb squat. Obviously, that's the reductio ad absurdum for your "aptitude is the only thing that matters", but hopefully you can see how it applies generally to courseloads in less extreme circumstances.

So because all majors are not created equal, if the average engineering major at your school (who presumably has a knack for math) truly enjoys the same amount of free time as the average communications major (who presumably has a knack for that material), then one of the paradigms I introduced in the last post is most likely applicable.

 

[moisne]

Hah, c'mon now! Any third party who reads this can determine who is being haughty and who is not. I've spent more than enough time mitigating my own abilities, while on the other hand, your attitude is on display for the world to see....

I understand full well that some people have different gifts than others, and I also understand that even the world's fastest runners will have an easier time picking up a cantaloupe than running a 4 minute mile. Even the greatest strength athletes will have an easier time running the 40 in 15 seconds versus a 950 lb squat. Obviously, that's the reductio ad absurdum for your "aptitude is the only thing that matters", but hopefully you can see how it applies generally to courseloads in less extreme circumstances.

So because all majors are not created equal, if the average engineering major at your school (who presumably has a knack for math) truly enjoys the same amount of free time as the average communications major (who presumably has a knack for that material), then one of the paradigms I introduced in the last post is most likely applicable.

Ok mr. I got a perfect score on DAT and am a mathlete. Engineering is 90% math. Minimal memorizations.


Engineering to communication is not the same as a 4 min mile and picking up a cantaloupe... that's just ridiculous.

It's more like the world's fastest runner being asked to run the world's track record with the world's fastest swimmer to swim the world's swimming record.

It blows my mind that you can't seem to fathom someone would find communication or whatever a harder major than engineering. The only B's I received were in English and social science classes... and I actually tried in those. So yeah, those classes are way harder than engineering for me (and anyone else like me). But then again, my VR was a 6.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

K, let's try a reaally truncated recap.

- I post what I post, having nothing to do with you.
- You chime in, claiming that my advice to save your efforts for the doctorate by forgoing engineering is for people who aren't good at math.
- I counter your point, making the claim that engineering on average is simply much more labor intensive than most alternative majors (e.g. social studies).
- You misinterpret my counter claim, assume that I somehow don't know that org is a prereq for med, again imply that anyone who finds engineering to be work-intensive is no good at math, and start the cavalcade of roll-eyes
- I counter that I have no problem with math, that tons of people on SDN are probably better than me at math, and that basically everybody who gets into a STEM doctorate program can handle math, and restate that engineering simply involves a higher than average workload, which for the majority of people, requires greater time investment.
- more rolling eyes from you while accusing me of being a show-off for pointing out that, no, other people don't suck at math just because they disagree with you on this topic.

it's almost like you go out of your way to horribly misinterpr...

But then again, my VR was a 6.

Ah okay. I gotchu.

Let me be more helpful, then. Here's what you missed on that last post:

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia

 

[moisne]

K, let's try a reaally truncated recap.

- I post what I post, having nothing to do with you.


(I didn't post what you posted- yes it has nothing to do with me... why would it? It's not about you either... however, that's what a forum is about - it's to help pre med students picking a major. And for some ppl, engineering will be their best bet at the highest GPA.)

- You chime in, claiming that my advice to save your efforts for the doctorate by forgoing engineering is for people who aren't good at math.

(You didn't say that. All you said was to avoid engineering major if any kind. I said "unless you are really good at math and it's your thing")

- I counter your point, making the claim that engineering on average is simply much more labor intensive than most alternative majors (e.g. social studies).

(Again - it depends on the individual. Writing an essay can be way more labor intensive than solving a weeks worth of engineering problems)

- You misinterpret my counter claim, assume that I somehow don't know that org is a prereq for med, again imply that anyone who finds engineering to be work-intensive is no good at math, and start the cavalcade of roll-eyes

(No, it's the stare up "uhhhh" emoji Bc you said "who wants to deal with ochem?" - completely irrelevant to engineering topic as it's a pre req)



- I counter that I have no problem with math, that tons of people on SDN are probably better than me at math, and that basically everybody who gets into a STEM doctorate program can handle math, and restate that engineering simply involves a higher than average workload, which for the majority of people, requires greater time investment.
(Not everyone is good at math... most med students are not... that's why it's a bunch of bio majors and not physics major/math majors.


- more rolling eyes from you while accusing me of being a show-off for pointing out that, no, other people don't suck at math just because they disagree with you on this topic.

( Bc you cannot fathom someone would find engineering easier than some other major. Bc I find engineering easier - it MUST be Bc my engineering school sucks. No? Lol. And Bc you managed to compare engineering vs communication as a 4 min mile vs lifting a fruit.)




it's almost like you go out of your way to horribly misinterpr...


Ah okay. I gotchu.

Let me be more helpful, then. Here's what you missed on that last post:
(See you and your personal attacks... again. Lol. Trust me. There are lots of other pre meds walked who walked in my shoes)
Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia

See above

You're the only one who's been making straw man attacks.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

To quote the greatest 13 year-old girls of our time, "

lol".

 

[WedgeDawg]

There's no harm in applying. If you get in, then decide.

 

[moisne]

To quote the greatest 13 year-old girls of our time, "

lol".

That's honestly the best reply you can make after each of your points was point blank shut down? Mmk.

Please use your 4 minute mile and fruit lifting metaphors in your dental school interviews. I'm sure it will be amusing. Later.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

That's honestly the best reply you can make after each of your points was point blank shut down? Mmk.

Please use your 4 minute mile and fruit lifting metaphors in your dental school interviews. I'm sure it will be amusing. Later.


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Strong projection there. My step-by-step dissection of your post is still there for you to respond to. "See above" doesn't work when "above" was already dismantled. But after you declined to do so, I was glad to be able to pay back, if only in small part, the joy of your insubstantial middle-school responses to you.

Re: The metaphors and dental school, while I know that, again, reductio ad absurdum can be a real brain-buster, they seemed to pick up what I was putting down at UPenn and the five others that I got into.

Best of luck to you.

 

[moisne]

Strong projection there. My step-by-step dissection of your post is still there for you to respond to. "See above" doesn't work when "above" was already dismantled. But after you declined to do so, I was glad to be able to pay back, if only in small part, the joy of your insubstantial middle-school responses to you.

Re: The metaphors and dental school, while I know that, again, reductio ad absurdum can be a real brain-buster, they seemed to pick up what I was putting down at UPenn and the five others that I got into.

Best of luck to you.

So you didn't "see above" as I replied to EACH of your points. Had you bother to look at it, you would see it.

Imma guess you didn't compare engineering to communication with your 4 min mile and fruit lifting metaphors.

Ps. I don't think you understand what projection is...

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Ah, my apologies for being so unhelpful earlier! Truth be told, I was a bit disappointed, because I genuinely thought that you had given me a terse, short-changed response, when all along, you had so much more to offer!

Well never fear: I've got your feedback right here for you.

First of all, let's talk about this tricky word "projection". It can be a real toughie, especially if the whole verbal thing isn't really your bag, but the word makes perfect sense in that context - of someone accusing another of their own flaw (e.g. providing a short, inadequate response in a discussion).

But leaving "inadequate" to the side, your response certainly wasn't short! Instead, you had simply tucked your full-length response into my block quote. Sorry I didn't see it earlier!

I failed to interpret "see above" as "look for replies within the quoted section" because, well, that's not how quote boxes are designed to work, and additionally, you'd used the quote feature correctly up until that point, so no such precedent had been established. Funny, right?

But no matter. Your abrupt and random formatting changes needn't blur the big picture here. You've been struggling to put some of these concepts together for nearly a week now, but I feel in my bones that we're right on the verge of a breakthrough!


Unfortunately, you did not mention people who are "really good at math". You said, and I quote, "Unless ur good at math."

Yes, I caught that "really" in your latest post. Sneaky little addition! So what's the difference?

Well I know, and now it's obvious that you know, too.

With just that little edit, you've acknowledged the pompous air of your original post; more or less, "Sure, you could avoid engineering as a major during pre-med... unless, ya know, you're actually good at math."

Charming, right?

Your revisionist version with "really good" is much more palatable, but it's also not what you said.



Now, I have to admit, it really does bum me out that you're still having trouble with the "deal with ochem and heat transfer" comment! I appreciate your appeal, I really do, but this big red X on your paper is non-negotiable; you blatantly misinterpreted the statement.

But hey, mistakes are just teaching moments waiting to happen, right? Let's get in some verbal reasoning practice by taking a look at the answer key:

If you're given the phrase "I see no reason to deal with heat transfer and organic chemistry," in the context of a forum dedicated to medical practice, education, and applications, by far the most probable interpretation of the phrase is "both heat transfer and organic chemistry" rather than "either heat transfer or organic chemistry".

Unfortunately, your proposed alternate explanation that the poster in question is somehow unaware that ochem is a prereq for med school is so implausible that you're essentially slashing Ockham's throat with his own razor.

This forum has seen every form and fashion of pre-health mistake conceivable, from academic dishonesty to under-preparing for the MCAT: have you ever once seen anyone simply forget that organic chemistry was a prerequisite? That would be beyond silly.

And as I've already mentioned, you can even go a step further in your understanding when you flesh out "o chem" and "heat transfer" as abstractions for "premed" and "engineering" curricula. I'm sure you've heard how much medical schools value the ability to think beyond the concrete and into the abstract, so it may be worth your while to roll that sentence around in the ol' noggin for a bit.

As they say, we live and we learn. I'm confident that you can put that little boo-boo behind you.



And yes, of course you are certainly correct that some people in the world find engineering easier than your typical liberal arts course load. You are correct and smart and gosh darn it, people like you.

But! But, but but! It bears repeating, because this didn't seem to get through the first time...

They are not equally difficult, and the average GPAs and the average workloads are so disparate in favor of liberal arts that it is perfectly valid to surmise that engineering is generally the harder major, unless you have good reason to believe that the pool of engineering majors is significantly less capable than their liberal art counterparts.

Furthermore, contrary to the implication behind your original statement, plenty of the people who choose to avoid engineering during pre-med are "good at math", but would still be spending substantially less time in another major, simply because the average workload tends to be greater.
At many schools, because of the workload disparity, the imbalance between math and verbal aptitude would have to be rather substantial to render engineering less time consuming. Hence, the reductio ad absurdum involving the fruit that you seem to find so perplexing (remember, metaphors don't need to match their literal counterparts in type nor in degree - and in fact, the degree is often exaggerated to make a point clearer!)

Now I've done my best to get these points across in various forms, but I fear if you're still struggling with even the rather straightforward correct interpretation of the o-chem statement, you may still find the rest of this to be terribly bewildering.

As much as I cherish this conversation and the learning opportunity it represents, I don't wish to further hijack either this thread nor the high school forum with excessively long messages.

I am currently unsubscribing from the thread in order to facilitate this goal.

You are welcome to private message me if you'd like to learn more on any of these topics.

You are also, of course, welcome to leave any further rantings, musings, love poems, or miscellany here on the thread, but sadly, they will forever remain between you and the handful of high schoolers seeking guidance on this forum because, once again, I will be unsubscribed.

Best of luck to you, and I wish you the loveliest 2018!