“It’s time to abolish the MCAT”

[Lawpy]

I still dont get it. She went to Rochester with a crappy MCAT because they waived it, and stayed there for residency in IM. She thinks there are many students who could do what she did. She wants them to be able to do what she did.

How does any of that help t10 med students

If the MCAT is abolished like she is demanding, the selection factors get more subjective with an even heavier emphasis placed on school name for med school admissions.

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[efle]

If the MCAT is abolished like she is demanding, the selection factors get more subjective with an even heavier emphasis placed on school name for med school admissions.

But she also went to a no-name tiny college. If this year, hundreds of students like her did what she did, it wouldnt involve any top colleges or med schools or residencies

 

[efle]

N=1 so now it’s true

Oh I totally agree the article is nonsense, I just dont understand why people try to write this kind of thing off as elitists trying to further their advantage

 

[Lawpy]

But she also went to a no-name tiny college. If this year, hundreds of students like her did what she did, it wouldnt involve any top colleges or med schools or residencies

it's two different environments though? and do schools today accept MCAT waivers like she did? that's news to me if they do

back in her time, it didn't take much to get to med school (even from the charts you posted before, you needed only a 33 to go to top schools and that was 10 years ago). given that today, undergrad school name already matters (and of highest importance for private schools), getting rid of the MCAT will place a stronger emphasis on school name, who you know (and so letter qualities), and opportunities (and it's no surprise that top undergrads have way more opportunities available to create strong apps). these things add up even more on top of the prestige bias.

Oh I totally agree the article is nonsense, I just dont understand why people try to write this kind of thing off as elitists trying to further their advantage

she's biased because she's a tenured doctor at Yale. it works to her personal and professional advantages. I think there was also a report on SDN somewhere mentioning the huge prestige bias at Yale med.

 

[Lucca]

it's two different environments though? and do schools today accept MCAT waivers like she did? that's news to me if they do

back in her time, it didn't take much to get to med school (even from the charts you posted before, you needed only a 33 to go to top schools and that was 10 years ago). given that today, undergrad school name already matters (and of highest importance for private schools), getting rid of the MCAT will place a stronger emphasis on school name, who you know (and so letter qualities), and opportunities (and it's no surprise that top undergrads have way more opportunities available to create strong apps). these things add up even more on top of the prestige bias.



she's biased because she's a tenured doctor at Yale. it works to her personal and professional advantages. I think there was also a report on SDN somewhere mentioning the huge prestige bias at Yale med.

Ya i wrote that post and I agree w @efle the elitism angle in this thread is bs

 

[Lawpy]

Ya i wrote that post and I agree w @efle the elitism angle in this thread is bs

How? The author's biased from her professional background, and getting rid of the MCAT will enhance the prestige bias

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

? The author went to Rochester more than two decades ago

But she’s a professor at an Ivy League now. Once you’ve got a taste of that ivory tower there’s no going back.

 

[Lynx zwo drei vier]

You can always generate clicks by virtue-signaling about how “reducing students to a number” is bad. But the uneasy fact remains that there needs to be a common leveling factor in this process, because so much of the other stuff is variable. And the most feasible way to do that is with a standardized test.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

If we’re talking about fantasying here I’m voting for getting rid of property taxes and increase of property taxes. Property taxes are too darn high here in Illinois.

 

[tri99]

You can always generate clicks by virtue-signaling about how “reducing students to a number” is bad. But the uneasy fact remains that there needs to be a common leveling factor in this process, because so much of the other stuff is variable. And the most feasible way to do that is with a standardized test.

Exactly, there are so many variables to consider (many of which are subjective) when judging one's potential as a future physician there has to be a baseline for comparison. Is the MCAT without its flaws and an absolute predictor of your abilities as a physician? Of course not. But it does provide a rough assessment of one's ability to apply their knowledge of the sciences in different scenarios.

 

[907914]

undergrad school name already matters (and of highest importance for private schools)

N=1 but I can attest to this - I have been the only person from a no name school at each T10 interview I have been at thus far.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

N=1 but I can attest to this - I have been the only person from a no name school at each T10 interview I have been at thus far.

I know a girl she had I forgot what gpa 3.4-3.6 and a good mcat like 90% percent. She went to undergrad at northwestern and got 3 acceptances at top 20 schools. If she was form generic no name state school. I’m not sure she would have received those acceptances .

 

[Lucca]

How? The author's biased from her professional background, and getting rid of the MCAT will enhance the prestige bias

Literally nobody — and I mean nobody — at the med school faculty level cares about how many Yalies or whatever are getting into med school. As with step 1, yes making the mcat p/f would increase prestige bias *in the absence of any other metrics*. And, again, as with Step 1 such a change would need to be accompanied with a replacement that sets out to accomplish a more meaningful goal. I don’t personally think the need to do that is particularly urgent or serious as per my previous post so it shouldn’t happen, but anyone saying that this particular professor has a secret agenda of increasing elitism in medicine is just deluding themselves.

 

[Goro]

Exactly, there are so many variables to consider (many of which are subjective) when judging one's potential as a future physician there has to be a baseline for comparison. Is the MCAT without its flaws and an absolute predictor of your abilities as a physician? Of course not. But it does provide a rough assessment of one's ability to apply their knowledge of the sciences in different scenarios.

Something no one has mentioned previously is that the MCAT is a test of judgement, not just competency.

In medical education, I and my colleagues have learned the hard way that med students who make bad choices have a hard time breaking that habit.

 

[Lawpy]

Literally nobody — and I mean nobody — at the med school faculty level cares about how many Yalies or whatever are getting into med school. As with step 1, yes making the mcat p/f would increase prestige bias *in the absence of any other metrics*. And, again, as with Step 1 such a change would need to be accompanied with a replacement that sets out to accomplish a more meaningful goal. I don’t personally think the need to do that is particularly urgent or serious as per my previous post so it shouldn’t happen, but anyone saying that this particular professor has a secret agenda of increasing elitism in medicine is just deluding themselves.

That's a pretty bold assertion tbh. I mentioned before the article was absurd and others gave more concrete examples as to why the author really doesn't have a point. However the concerns of elitism are well grounded (and beyond just the prestige bias). It's no surprise top undergrads have a huge abundance of resources and networking so absence of objective metrics favors the subjective and those from top schools thrive. That is the elitism that arises regardless of whether that professor who wrote that poor article is personally elitist

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

At least at this stage of my training, I sometimes wonder if my test taking skill really can translate into anything concrete. Most exams feel like games, with varying amounts of content needed.

Anyway, I think having a standardisées metric is invaluable. Med school admissions are already holistic as it is.

 

[Select All That Apply]

When medical school admission committees use the MCAT as a screening tool to determine who gets into medical schools or not, they rob many aspiring physicians, especially those who are underrepresented minorities, of their dream to become a physician.

According to Genao, research shows that there is a racial gap when it comes to standardized test performance and since the MCAT is often a deciding factor in the admissions process, it hinders people of color from entering the field.

I was one of those applicants whose MCAT test scores did not represent my academic performance. I was fortunate enough to be accepted to a medical school that waived the MCAT. I am now an associate professor at an Ivy League medical school and affiliated hospital caring for patients, and teaching to medical students and residents. I have served as director of our primary care center and hold a number of high-level leadership positions that focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Next level. If underrepresented minorities still can't pass the bar, then just get rid of the bar and accept purely based on Crayola Box standards. Lyndon B. Johnson's intention in the mid 1960's when it came to listing possible interpretations of how to approach affirmative action must have been to use race as the primary selection factor to resolve the secondary effects of colonial slavery. Makes absolute sense. Can't be faulted for discrimination if you're blatantly discriminating for your home colors to be represented.

 

[Mad Jack]

So I just thought this was interesting.

That’s the headline from doximity today.
Here’s the article: It's time to abolish the MCAT

While I do understand the point that it screens people I wonder what the alternative would be?
“To be sure, the MCAT simplifies the admissions screening process and is good at predicting student performance on other standardized tests. But the MCAT score correlates poorly with overall performance in medical school and beyond.”

I think the point against them would be “good at predicting student performance on other standardized tests”. I mean becoming a doctor is just a series of standardized tests no?

Anyway, thought y’all be interested and have an entertaining discussion.

The MCAT was originally brought into being specifically because it did predict medical school success. If it isn't doing so, the test should be altered rather than scrapped

 

[mwsapphire]

The article is ridiculous. Working with third year medical students, I can tell you that the admissions standards to medical schools should be increased if anything. I understand that some people feel like someone being a "nice person" should get them a spot in medical school, but that is dangerous and not meritocratic. I could list hundreds of examples, but a recent third year student thought that a mass on the back of a patient's neck could be a thymoma. A second year med student should not make that mistake. A very nice girl in my colleague's residency class was obviously out of her league going to medical school and ended up failing Step 3 at least three times and thus cannot practice.

The MCAT should only be replaced if they can come up with an academic test that better predicts medical school performance.

Ehhh... I think the odd person can slip through the cracks any way. MCAT or not, there will bea few people who aren't quite "smart" enough for med school.
Like, we have interviews, but sometimes people who aren't kind/personable/empathetic enough become doctors. Sometimes we admit people with little clinical exposure who then realize medicine isn't for them. So I mean, the odd person getting in when they shouldn't have will always happen.

 

[7331poas]

Literally nobody — and I mean nobody — at the med school faculty level cares about how many Yalies or whatever are getting into med school. As with step 1, yes making the mcat p/f would increase prestige bias *in the absence of any other metrics*. And, again, as with Step 1 such a change would need to be accompanied with a replacement that sets out to accomplish a more meaningful goal. I don’t personally think the need to do that is particularly urgent or serious as per my previous post so it shouldn’t happen, but anyone saying that this particular professor has a secret agenda of increasing elitism in medicine is just deluding themselves.

Thats just patently untrue. med admissions committees love having harvard and yale students in their class. They in fact advertise it all the time.

 

[mwsapphire]

Med school admissions should be GPA and mcat and research and ability to hold convo.

Not diversity and volunteering like it is now

I literally can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

 

[907914]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

And doctor no need read good?

 

[tri99]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

Being able to apply knowledge from previous things you have read to something new you are reading might come in handy at some point. Like when you have to apply medical knowledge to a patient’s chart you are reading.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Wut those two things shouldn’t even be considered

What are you talking about? Grades don’t matter if you’re really interesting.

 

[7331poas]

I literally can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

What is the sarcasm? our school definitely skips over top applicants for interviews and opts instead to interview african americans and people with "unique" backgrounds.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

And doctor no need read good?

Doctor only need to type good or speak good.

 

[Goro]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

Data from multiple schools and AAMC suggest otherwise.

Those of you who have never taught medicals students, please, just stop.

 

[7331poas]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

All the top students in our class also scored 515+ on the mcat.

 

[Mad Jack]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

Given your post's structure, I take it you're not the best at two out of three of those things. That doesn't mean it is a bad test, however. Reading and writing are basic skills any physician should possess because your colleagues will have to suffer through your notes and you'll have to slog through many a research article and note throughout your career. Sociology matters because you'll be dealing with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

People can argue about this all day but until someone can propose a better way to stratify applicants it’s what we’re stuck with.

It’s like when you have people with crazy cancers. We put them on all sorts of chemo drugs even though the success rate is poor it’s the best we’ve got, so it’s what we use.

Our school has recently been trying to modify our admissions algorithm to give more weight to intangible qualities like resilience and social competence, but the problem is you can’t measure that...hence why it’s intangible.

So just like everything else in medicine we use the tools at our disposal. And if you don’t like the tools, I challenge anyone to go out and find a better one.

 

[Oedipa Maas]

People can argue about this all day but until someone can propose a better way to stratify applicants it’s what we’re stuck with.

It’s like when you have people with crazy cancers. We put them on all sorts of chemo drugs even though the success rate is poor it’s the best we’ve got, so it’s what we use.

Our school has recently been trying to modify our admissions algorithm to give more weight to intangible qualities like resilience and social competence, but the problem is you can’t measure that...hence why it’s intangible.

So just like everything else in medicine we use the tools at our disposal. And if you don’t like the tools, I challenge anyone to go out and find a better one.

I am currently screening secondaries and interviewing applicants at my school and we have the resilience quality as a factor as well. I've been through over 100 applications and I think I've given it to only one or two students based on the school's criteria. While plenty of students write about coming back from an academic failure or a losing game in the sport they played, that doesn't really stand out as noteworthy resilience to me. You're absolutely right you can't measure it, and the criteria has it as bouncing back from something big, and doesn't really take into account bouncing back from small things frequently every day, which is also a form of resilience and arguably an important one in medicine.

 

[Mad Jack]

she's a Yale doc tho.

Yale is the biggest player in CT, saying you're a Yale doctor means about as much as saying you're a Kaiser doctor in most of CA. The only time it carries real weight is if someone is full time clinical faculty, adjuncts are a dime a dozen and all it says is that you let students rotate with you and maybe occasionally do a lecture.

 

[Lawpy]

Yale is the biggest player in CT, saying you're a Yale doctor means about as much as saying you're a Kaiser doctor in most of CA. The only time it carries real weight is if someone is full time clinical faculty, adjuncts are a dime a dozen and all it says is that you let students rotate with you and maybe occasionally do a lecture.

I thought she's an associate prof with additional admin duties?

Inginia Genao, MD

Inginia Genao, MD is a Professor Adjunct at Yale School of Medicine

medicine.yale.edu

 

[Mad Jack]

I thought she's an associate prof with additional admin duties?

Inginia Genao, MD

Inginia Genao, MD is a Professor Adjunct at Yale School of Medicine

medicine.yale.edu

Being medical director of the primary care center is actually a big deal, all the rest of the credentials are basically academic garnish that Yale hands out like a 1990s pharma rep would hand out resort dinners.

 

[jhamaican]

I definitely agree we should abolish the MCAT.

Personally, I think acceptances should be granted on the basis of sex, sexual orientation and race. Each of these categories should weigh in at 33% each.

Anyone who disagrees is a racist misogynist.

 

[RNthenDoc]

My thoughts: Keep the MCAT but put less focus on it (wasn't the original idea "greater than 500=consider this applicant?")

Instead, find better ways of weeding out toxic and insane individuals. The acceptance process has a huge amount of randomness/luck to it, and the subjective portion of the interview season never fails to demonstrate how poorly the interview process informs admissions folks about their candidates.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

I definitely agree we should abolish the MCAT.

Personally, I think acceptances should be granted on the basis of sex, sexual orientation and race. Each of these categories should weigh in at 33% each.

Anyone who disagrees is a racist misogynist.

lmao

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I do find her choice of anecdotes pretty weird though.

"I know a PhD student who took formal review courses, hired a tutor, took the test 3x and still can't score above 500"

??? Sounds like someone who should not go to med school

That was one of the craziest part of the article. Something's obviously wrong there and it has nothing to do with the MCAT

 

[7331poas]

The real problem with medical school admissions is the amount of weird people with mental illness who are admitted. Surely there is a way to select against them

 

[Chibucks15]

The real problem with medical school admissions is the amount of weird people with mental illness who are admitted. Surely there is a way to select against them

What kind of mental illness are you talking about? The interview screens out the sociopaths and outward illnesses

 

[7331poas]

What kind of mental illness are you talking about? The interview screens out the sociopaths and outward illnesses

There is plenty of "outward illness" to be seen in medical schools and medicine imo.

 

[Chibucks15]

There is plenty of "outward illness" to be seen in medical schools and medicine imo.

I mean that's just people being type A dinguses, entitled brats, immature, and gunners. While its terribly obnoxious, I don't think it qualifies as a mental illness

 

[7331poas]

I mean that's just people being type A dinguses, entitled brats, immature, and gunners. While its terribly obnoxious, I don't think it qualifies as a mental illness

Disagree. I see plenty of anxiety disorders. Depression. We should be screening the entitled brats as well.

 

[Chibucks15]

Disagree. I see plenty of anxiety disorders. Depression. We should be screening the entitled brats as well.

Agreed with the entitled brats part, but there is a high correlation to the current medical education system and high amounts of anxiety and depression in medical students. Personally, I don't believe those should be screened out any more than IBD would be. Otherwise all it would cause is people to hide it like they used to, and the suicide rate would climb higher than it already is

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Disagree. I see plenty of anxiety disorders. Depression. We should be screening the entitled brats as well.

Lol ok, we'll just screen out all the applicants with anxiety and depression. While we're at it we should rescind the licenses of any resident or attending that has those too. FFS.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

The MCAT is just rediculous. Not a predictor of anything. All that means is you know how to read.. Sociology and Reading, Writing...Seriously? Its a joke.

Yep. The MCAT is absolutely

Edit: There's a ridiculously great/corny joke in here

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Or ur just bad

The post was not at all serious. There's a joke in there if you look close enough

 

[Naruhodo]

Or at least (please) make these tests shorter again! The MCAT and STEPs 1/2 have gotten out of control. They will never be able to test everything they would like to, but currently seem to primarily test endurance/attention and the ability to hold one's urine/self-cath/wear diapers....(only kind of kidding).

 

[7331poas]

Lol ok, we'll just screen out all the applicants with anxiety and depression. While we're at it we should rescind the licenses of any resident or attending that has those too. FFS.

If it is noticeable and affects interpersonal relations in the clinical setting, sure, it absolutely should affect licensing.