It has started... PGY3's in newest AJHP

[Deja]

i stopped reading after the first sentence lol

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[pharm B]

They state that the shortage of caregivers is made worse by physicians spending more time developing as specialists... So if pharmacists spend more time specializing, that somehow solves the problem?

It just makes no sense. I've seen better articles in Ranger Rick.

 

[awval999]

They state that the shortage of caregivers is made worse by physicians spending more time developing as specialists... So if pharmacists spend more time specializing, that somehow solves the problem?

It just makes no sense. I've seen better articles in Ranger Rick.

I re-read that line half a dozen times. I agree, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[PharmDstudent]

The whole notion of a pharmacy residency is obviously a one-trick pony that got out of control...

 

[BF7]

8 years for a Pharmacy degree with the current practice opportunities available? NO THANK YOU. I'd rather spend 5 years of tuition and time and simply become a Physician Assistant.

 

[BenJammin]

The concept of the PGY-3 makes the profession of pharmacy look like the 400 lbs girl at the club who demands you buy her a drink before you talk to her. What a joke.

 

[BidingMyTime]

I'm guessing the author of this article is an unemployed pharmacist, and had to come up with some fantasy article to pay his bills. And the AJHP must be desperate for articles, or maybe it was supposed to be posted in their April 1st issue, but it got ran wrong.

I think a PGY-1 is unneeded for 95% of pharmacists. A PGY-2 and PGY-3 is just exploitation for cheap labor. I so greatly enjoy being a pharmacist, but if I knew I was going to have to invest 11 years in education, instead of the 5 years which I did, there is no way I would have ever picked the profession. As others have mentioned, the smart students will be going into a different field, which would be sad, because pharmacy needs smart students and practitioners.

 

[confettiflyer]

My opinion is that PGY-1 is a boon to hospitals and lets them outsource the "1st year n00bness" to other institutions...or, if it's your own, lets you hire a bunch of temp-to-hire pharmacists, train them at a lower rate, and jettison the lower performing ones.

PGY-2 is a good idea for high acuity/specialized practices like crit care, EM, transplant, etc... but you can substitute a few years of experience by a good hospital that's willing to put the effort and train you. Again, boon for hospitals, you can skip the training and hire someone ready-to-go. Why take the risk spending a few years training someone? Given what's available in the market, I wouldn't.

PGY-3 is probably the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

 

[BF7]

The disconnect between academia and the actual BUSINESS of Pharmacy has never been more pronounced than it currently is today. There is simply no, zero, zilch, zip, nada underlying financial backbone to clinical pharmacy practice outside of institutions being provided GRANT money and other subsidies. Our bread is still buttered via DISPENSING.

Although this recent article detailed a potential breakthrough in pharmacist provided clinical services...http://www.pharmacist.com/cms-tells...st-provided-services-may-be-billed-incident-4

"CMS has informed the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) that a physician may bill the Medicare program for pharmacist-provided services as incident-to services if all the legal requirements are met"

But I can assure all of you that these services will not afford our profession the number of employment opportunities that we need to recruit the best and brightest minds nor will it allow for us to practice independently (as some of us do with our own Stores). In order to strengthen Pharmacy practice we need to have a 3rd class of drugs that don't require a Prescription from a physician but that can't be sold without a consult with a Licensed Pharmacist; We need to move to a model that some other nations have such as Thailand where Pharmacists truly are used in a manner congruent with their education levels...common bacterial infections, etc(especially with the advent of quick test kits) ..Heck, 60-70 years ago, Americans saw their "Druggist" when they had a common cold or other ailment; they saw their physicians when they needed a surgery. Humphrey-Durham changed our standing in the medical community from being roughly an equal to physicians to us now being reliant on physicians to provide us with a piece of paper with the name of something which was previously able to be dispensed by a pharmacist if he saw fit (TRUE PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT). We can better serve our community and decrease health care costs by allowing Pharmacists to expand our clinical services and to move some of what are now RX only meds into a 3rd class that only we can dispense.

 

[RxMonkey]

The disconnect between academia and the actual BUSINESS of Pharmacy has never been more pronounced than it currently is today. There is simply no, zero, zilch, zip, nada underlying financial backbone to clinical pharmacy practice outside of institutions being provided GRANT money and other subsidies. Our bread is still buttered via DISPENSING.

Although this recent article detailed a potential breakthrough in pharmacist provided clinical services...http://www.pharmacist.com/cms-tells...st-provided-services-may-be-billed-incident-4

"CMS has informed the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) that a physician may bill the Medicare program for pharmacist-provided services as incident-to services if all the legal requirements are met"

But I can assure all of you that these services will not afford our profession the number of employment opportunities that we need to recruit the best and brightest minds nor will it allow for us to practice independently (as some of us do with our own Stores). In order to strengthen Pharmacy practice we need to have a 3rd class of drugs that don't require a Prescription from a physician but that can't be sold without a consult with a Licensed Pharmacist; We need to move to a model that some other nations have such as Thailand where Pharmacists truly are used in a manner congruent with their education levels...common bacterial infections, etc(especially with the advent of quick test kits) ..Heck, 60-70 years ago, Americans saw their "Druggist" when they had a common cold or other ailment; they saw their physicians when they needed a surgery. Humphrey-Durham changed our standing in the medical community from being roughly an equal to physicians to us now being reliant on physicians to provide us with a piece of paper with the name of something which was previously able to be dispensed by a pharmacist if he saw fit (TRUE PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT). We can better serve our community and decrease health care costs by allowing Pharmacists to expand our clinical services and to move some of what are now RX only meds into a 3rd class that only we can dispenses.

It's my understanding that pharmacists in FL already have limited prescriptive authority. However, in 7 years working in the State, I have never seen nor heard of a pharmacist envoking the privilege. Too many hoops to jump through and too much added liability.

 

[BMBiology]

N

 

[owlegrad]

It's my understanding that pharmacists in FL already have limited prescriptive authority. However, in 7 years working in the State, I have never seen nor heard of a pharmacist envoking the privilege. Too many hoops to jump through and too much added liability.

Take a look at the formulary we can prescribe. It's pointless.

 

[oldstock]

wow.... that's insane

yup, but wait until they make "community residency" a mandate to work at CVS or Walgreen

 

[oldstock]

Naw heck no! Whoever wrote that article is out of touch with reality.

they might not be out of touch reality. They actually want to get cheap labor. But they are playing with words very well. Same thing happened with PharmD's mandate as 1st professional/entry degree then residency then this. Before long, you will see people have to do multiple residencies + fellowship too. With many new schools opening producing too many graduates, this will be the reality.

 

[RxMonkey]

Take a look at the formulary we can prescribe. It's pointless.

You're right. Does seem pretty pointless. Mostly stuff that is OTC anyway. Only real exception is topical antivirals and scopalamine patches. That's good to know, but... meh.. not worth the effort. I was led to believe that the formulary was a bit more inclusive.

 

[oldstock]

this is just an excellent thread !!

the more I think about this, the more I realize the whole US higher education are just a scam, not just pharmacy. They are also in bed with big businesses to squeeze the last dime out of students from the time they start schools to finish. Can we actually do anything about this ?? No, and that makes me again very sad...

Higher education is not worth the money and times invested anymore. If I were a fresh out of HS 18 years old today, I would just learn to cut some hair (humans and pets) and start making money already as the ROI is way better than those BSh*t "Doctorate" degrees and residencies.... Then I could google and read and learn as much as I can online and buy myself some online "Doctor" diploma to hang on my wall for fun...

 

[fauxden]

So my next question is... everyone agrees 3 years is insane. What makes it different from 2 years? Lots of people are happy to do a PGY2...

 

[oldstock]

So my next question is... everyone agrees 3 years is insane. What makes it different from 2 years? Lots of people are happy to do a PGY2...

2 year and even 1 year residency (or even PharmD's mandate as 1st professional/entry degree) are also insane if you asked me. Where are the freaking jobs for those things ?? The whole thing is just a scam

 

[confettiflyer]

2 year and even 1 year residency (or even PharmD's mandate as 1st professional/entry degree) are also insane if you asked me. Where are the freaking jobs for those things ?? The whole thing is just a scam

Meh...PGY1 worked out for me financially and location-wise. Could I have done this job out of school with abundant training? Yup. But that wasn't the reality I was in, so I played the game for a bit.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Meh...PGY1 worked out for me financially and location-wise. Could I have done this job out of school with abundant training? Yup. But that wasn't the reality I was in, so I play looped the game for a bit.

Yep, me too. Made up for that $70k lost income during PGY-1 in 2.5 yrs, it's all gravy from start of 2014 on out and grows annually.

Residency is a useful tool and currency, it open doors to opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise have. But like any tool, if you can't plan or use it effectively, it's just an inanimate object or you might even hurt yourself.

PS. I totally agree that a PGY-3 is way overkill in the current and near future.

 

[confettiflyer]

Yep, me too. Made up for that $70k lost income during PGY-1 in 2.5 yrs, it's all gravy from start of 2014 on out and grows annually.

Residency is a useful tool and currency, it open doors to opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise have. But like any tool, if you can't plan or use it effectively, it's just an inanimate object or you might even hurt yourself.

PS. I totally agree that a PGY-3 is way overkill in the current and near future.

This is an n=1 situation and not comparable, but if you consider my "straight out of school" offer for inpatient staffing and my current rate in CA, going through the PGY-1 process netted me +$23/hr or a pay difference of +$47,840/yr. Most of my friends that did the same and settled in Southern Calif. are getting +$12-15/hr.

My cost of living has actually gone down (hey living in the center of Philly in a bougie apartment isn't cheap), my state taxes are only nominally higher ($11,690 in CA vs. $7,200 in PA (state + philly wage tax) based on that really low hourly rate).

So yeah, about 2.5 years I've recaptured the difference when accounting for taxes. Not to mention the intangibles of relative job security over my non-PGY1 trained brethren. I eschewed PGY-2 as my employer is informally training me to specialize.

 

[oldstock]

Meh...PGY1 worked out for me financially and location-wise. Could I have done this job out of school with abundant training? Yup. But that wasn't the reality I was in, so I played the game for a bit.

Yep, me too. Made up for that $70k lost income during PGY-1 in 2.5 yrs, it's all gravy from start of 2014 on out and grows annually.

Residency is a useful tool and currency, it open doors to opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise have. But like any tool, if you can't plan or use it effectively, it's just an inanimate object or you might even hurt yourself.

PS. I totally agree that a PGY-3 is way overkill in the current and near future.

tell me you guys beat this guy's ROI

 

[xiphoid2010]

tell me you guys beat this guy's ROI

I could have done undergrad in petro engineering with $0 student loans and be making $200k a year, but that besides the point, same as becoming an Asian plumber.

Given that we chose a pharmacy career, we try to limit analysis to what's reasonable. 3 yrs out of residency, I'm now making 50% more than a staff pharmacist in large part due to the opportunity that a PGY-1 enabled. Let's not write off residency as a scam, but let's put a disclaimer that says " your milage may vary".

 

[confettiflyer]

Let's not write of residency as a scam, but let's put a disclaimer that says " your milage may vary".

Cheers to that. I say that applies to Rx school and life itself.

 

[xiphoid2010]

This is an n=1 situation and not comparable, but if you consider my "straight out of school" offer for inpatient staffing and my current rate in CA, going through the PGY-1 process netted me +$23/hr or a pay difference of +$47,840/yr. Most of my friends that did the same and settled in Southern Calif. are getting +$12-15/hr.

My cost of living has actually gone down (hey living in the center of Philly in a bougie apartment isn't cheap), my state taxes are only nominally higher ($11,690 in CA vs. $7,200 in PA (state + philly wage tax) based on that really low hourly rate).

So yeah, about 2.5 years I've recaptured the difference when accounting for taxes. Not to mention the intangibles of relative job security over my non-PGY1 trained brethren. I eschewed PGY-2 as my employer is informally training me to specialize.

From what I have seen in you post, I think you have the logic deduction, firmness and financial sense to make DOP. Keep adding to your skills and be willing to take be risks when opportunity comes knocking, it can be your. It's a different game, no better or worse if you have the right stuff, but pays a lot better.

 

[KidPharmD]

2 year and even 1 year residency (or even PharmD's mandate as 1st professional/entry degree) are also insane if you asked me. Where are the freaking jobs for those things ?? The whole thing is just a scam

Where are the jobs? Already taken by current pharmacists.

Our institution has 11 FTE's that would require a PGY2 in Pediatrics if vacated today, and 18FTE's that would require a PGY1 if vacated.

The 5 year BSPharm degree is gone. There is no place to reinstate it. PGY1's are essential for a new practioner to be effective in any job that has hybrid or full clinical responsibilities.

My problem with PGY3's is that many of these specialities that are proposed for the third year already exist as second year residencies. Pediatrics is the worst as there are so many pediatric PGY1's that most of the PGY2's have some sort of speciality built into them (or allow for specialization). Examples are Peds Hem/Onc or Critical Care.

Where PGY3's might be useful would be for Universities and Research centers to provide training in academia or research to already specialty trained pharmacists.

 

[BF7]

I could have done undergrad in petro engineering with $0 student loans and be making $200k a year, but that besides the point, same as becoming an Asian plumber.

Given that we chose a pharmacy career, we try to limit analysis to what's reasonable. 3 yrs out of residency, I'm now making 50% more than a staff pharmacist in large part due to the opportunity that a PGY-1 enabled. Let's not write off residency as a scam, but let's put a disclaimer that says " your milage may vary".

Interesting...The average retail staff Pharmacist in Dallas makes ~$58-$60 per hour. In the Permian Basin (midland-Odessa) they are making $63-65 per hour. So, for arguments sake....you're making $94 per hour (based on an average of $63 per hour)? OR were you referring to Hospital pay rates(which I'd like a refresher on if you could provide it)? Thank you, BF7

 

[xiphoid2010]

Interesting...The average retail staff Pharmacist in Dallas makes ~$58-$60 per hour. In the Permian Basin (midland-Odessa) they are making $63-65 per hour. So, for arguments sake....you're making $94 per hour (based on an average of $63 per hour)? OR were you referring to Hospital pay rates(which I'd like a refresher on if you could provide it)? Thank you, BF7

It's hospital rate. I wouldn't work for walgreens after 3 years internship with them, never mind CVS. You can google what's the average staff and DOP salary and get an idea. My current job offered a bit more to induce the lateral move.

 

[pharm B]

Where PGY3's might be useful would be for Universities and Research centers to provide training in academia or research to already specialty trained pharmacists.

At that point, how are they different than the fellowships we've discussed in the past?

Seems like anyone can run an article in AJHP these days. Who wants to join me in writing a response?

 

[confettiflyer]

From what I have seen in you post, I think you have the logic deduction, firmness and financial sense to make DOP. Keep adding to your skills and be willing to take be risks when opportunity comes knocking, it can be your. It's a different game, no better or worse if you have the right stuff, but pays a lot better.

Thank you, sir. I've got a lot to learn, but that might be the 10-15 year plan for me.

 

[KidPharmD]

At that point, how are they different than the fellowships we've discussed in the past?

Seems like anyone can run an article in AJHP these days. Who wants to join me in writing a response?

I really think the only difference would be accreditation of Fellowships. As it is, they vary widely and I am for an accreditation process for these programs.

 

[oldstock]

I have come across this old comments (posted 2 years ago) on the article "Is There a Pharmacist in the House?", August 20, 2008 by David Moltz http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/08/20/pharmacy#ixzz38LHRrOKd Inside Higher Ed, this evening,

"jy • 2 years ago
Touro is a for-profit school, so it is no surprise Knapp's manpower project is flawed, with the bias going one way--promoting the fiction that a shortage still exists, by exclusively relying on chain stores' vantage point of how easy it is to hire and fire at will in the most remote corners of a state. Likewise, the increase in demand for pharmacists in the 90s, early 00s, when there was a shortage, was exclusively driven by corporate chain pharmacy expansion. For several years now that has been flat. However, enrollment at pharmacy schools, and the addition of new schools, has doubled in the last ten years.

This is a line of work that has seen its years of training double, with no added role in the context of credential inflation. Students interested in hospital positions are expected to do an extra one-two year residency training, which mostly consists of presentations and compiling obscure studies to justify minute, unwanted therapy recommendations, for jobs that four years before did not require them. The traditional roles of pharmacists, verifying, filling, are quickly being replaced by face recognition tech (verifies medicine) and robotics. Hospital jobs are being eliminated and outsourced to call centers, while clinical pharmacists are in an ever increasing battle to justify funding. Mail order and central fill will eliminate many traditional retail roles. Already work conditions in retail include 14 hour days (e.g. CVS), no lunch or bath room breaks and general management harassment with all scripts, actions, phone call answer time, etc. measured by the computer and used in multi-annual reviews. Pharmacy is an excellent case study of academic bubble inflation. Pharmacy is consistently promoted as a viable career, when it is in fact, a dying profession with sparse clinical role, and increasing unemployment with school openings being the most vibrant part of the field--all so universities make money, and more faculty positions are available for refugees from the actual working pharmacist nightmare."

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/08/20/pharmacy#sthash.XmaM9s2Y.XUpzKvuV.dpbs

can't be said any better than that...

this PGY3 is just a side effect of too many schools + too many pharmacists. Supply of pharmacy graduates outstrips demand/jobs. Thus it is very simple to understand why they need to invent more fantasies like this PGY3.

 

[gwarm01]

Students interested in hospital positions are expected to do an extra one-two year residency training, which mostly consists of presentations and compiling obscure studies to justify minute, unwanted therapy recommendations, for jobs that four years before did not require them. The traditional roles of pharmacists, verifying, filling, are quickly being replaced by face recognition tech (verifies medicine) and robotics. Hospital jobs are being eliminated and outsourced to call centers, while clinical pharmacists are in an ever increasing battle to justify funding.

Yikes, that article is a little harsh. Maybe the person who wrote that works in a very hostile environment, but in my hospital the pharmacy staff is very appreciated by both nursing and medical staff. In fact we have recently added more dedicated clinical positions due to demand from our ICU who appreciated having a pharmacist in the unit during the day time. If anything, it seems to completely overlook the most important duties of the hospital pharmacist. These duties can cannot be replicated by facial recognition software..

 

[zelman]

...If anything, it seems to completely overlook the most important duties of the hospital pharmacist. These duties can cannot be replicated by facial recognition software..

Those duties require pharmacy knowledge, not a pharmacist license. A license is necessary for distribution of medication. That job could be taken by an MD, PA or nurse with appropriate knowledge. In fact, since we can't bill 3rd parties for those services, ANYONE with the knowledge could do it, whether that's a student or cafeteria worker who is up to date on current medical journals.

 

[anewmanx]

Five year BPharm's from overseas can practice in the US after certifying their studies, taking an exam, and (sadly) volunteering their way throughthe mandatory intern hours. All at the rosy cost of as little as 7-15k tuition in some countries.

So why do they force you guys to get PharmD degrees and pay six figures?

I second a previous posters opinion that education is a racket in the US. They bleed you dry.

 

[clarkbar]

I've seen this same trend in other oversaturated fields. For instance, in nursing they are doing away with all the degrees, making the BSN the entry level degree. "Improved care" is merely a smokescreen; the real culprit is to eliminate scores of nurses, some with decades of experience, to rebalance the labor market for a few years before the plethora of schools overflows the supply again.
The "my-residency-sets-me-apart" crowd is concerned because the PGY2 year is no longer sufficient to get work in their specialty...

It was hard to even get through the article.

A PGY3 sub-specialty in PEDS heme/onc? I doubt our MAIN CAMPUS even has ONE peds heme/onc pharmacist. How many of these unicorn, wait, double rainbow unicorn jobs are there? 10-15 in the entire country? You will have over-trained RPhs for which there are no jobs. These PGY3 RPhs will be put in the oncology suites and do the traditional order verification/clinical work in which current BPharms do.

It's one thing if there was a thirst for these positions, but there isn't. Hospitals are making cuts and trying to reduce costs. A fancy $150k (including benefits) RPh? Sure, adding a residency isn't expensive and you can have pharmacist extenders at $40k/year, but I just feel bad when they can't get the jobs they trained for, because they don't exist in that high of amount.

 

[confettiflyer]

I've seen this same trend in other oversaturated fields. For instance, in nursing they are doing away with all the degrees, making the BSN the entry level degree. "Improved care" is merely a smokescreen; the real culprit is to eliminate scores of nurses, some with decades of experience, to rebalance the labor market for a few years before the plethora of schools overflows the supply again.
The "my-residency-sets-me-apart" crowd is concerned because the PGY2 year is no longer sufficient to get work in their specialty...

But experience > * and from what I see, most hospitals are not jettisoning older, experienced RN's for shiny new BSN's. Same with pharmacy, it just adds time to the process for the newbies coming in.

In terms of quality, it theoretically cuts down on the on the job training an institution has to do. It probably ends up being a wash over 10 years anyway.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Yikes, that article is a little harsh. Maybe the person who wrote that works in a very hostile environment, but in my hospital the pharmacy staff is very appreciated by both nursing and medical staff. In fact we have recently added more dedicated clinical positions due to demand from our ICU who appreciated having a pharmacist in the unit during the day time. If anything, it seems to completely overlook the most important duties of the hospital pharmacist. These duties can cannot be replicated by facial recognition software..

concur - I have worked at my hospital for 8 years - we have increased our pharmacists from 30 to 48 FTE's. Our hospital has grown by a whopping 25 beds. I agree that a PGY3 is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard off. You have the same education and training time period as a PCP MD and for what? Begging for a job somewhere? We need PCP's - no way should this even begin to start.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Where are the jobs? Already taken by current pharmacists.

Our institution has 11 FTE's that would require a PGY2 in Pediatrics if vacated today, and 18FTE's that would require a PGY1 if vacated.

The 5 year BSPharm degree is gone. There is no place to reinstate it. PGY1's are essential for a new practioner to be effective in any job that has hybrid or full clinical responsibilities.

My problem with PGY3's is that many of these specialities that are proposed for the third year already exist as second year residencies. Pediatrics is the worst as there are so many pediatric PGY1's that most of the PGY2's have some sort of speciality built into them (or allow for specialization). Examples are Peds Hem/Onc or Critical Care.

Where PGY3's might be useful would be for Universities and Research centers to provide training in academia or research to already specialty trained pharmacists.

sounds like you have been drinking the Kool-aid (technically flavor-aid - I feel bad Kool Aid got all that bad pub because of some crazy wack job in south america)

 

[oldstock]

concur - I have worked at my hospital for 8 years - we have increased our pharmacists from 30 to 48 FTE's. Our hospital has grown by a whopping 25 beds. I agree that a PGY3 is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard off. You have the same education and training time period as a PCP MD and for what? Begging for a job somewhere? We need PCP's - no way should this even begin to start.

wait until the number of schools hit 200 mark... then when it hit 300, they are probably going to ask you to have a PGY10 plus a PhD degree along with your PharmD and a pharmacist license to beg for any kind of pharmacist job... They can ask for anything, the sky is the limit. Beggars can't be choosers...

 

[KidPharmD]

sounds like you have been drinking the Kool-aid (technically flavor-aid - I feel bad Kool Aid got all that bad pub because of some crazy wack job in south america)

How so?

I simply stated that there are several positions at our institution where the job description would list a PGY1 or 2 as a requirement for the job if they were to be vacated and posted. As a PGY2 resident, I am unashamedly pro-residency for certain positions. I doubt most new grads are really ready for a hybrid or clinical position at graduation. If we can figure out how to train new grads to be ready for these positions, all the better.

People keep saying that people could have been MDs for the same amount of training, but I wanted to be a pharmacist and the knowledge I would have to do 2 years of residency did not deter me from going to pharmacy school when I could have easily gone to med school.

I also stated that the article describe PGY3's that do not seem to fill an area of training that doesn't already exist. but is predicated on the idea that all PGY1s are the same (they aren't), and that there aren't PGY2's that are more specialized than their accreditation implies (there are).

 

[awval999]

How so?

I simply stated that there are several positions at our institution where the job description would list a PGY1 or 2 as a requirement for the job if they were to be vacated and posted. As a PGY2 resident, I am unashamedly pro-residency for certain positions. I doubt most new grads are really ready for a hybrid or clinical position at graduation. If we can figure out how to train new grads to be ready for these positions, all the better.

People keep saying that people could have been MDs for the same amount of training, but I wanted to be a pharmacist and the knowledge I would have to do 2 years of residency did not deter me from going to pharmacy school when I could have easily gone to med school.

I also stated that the article describe PGY3's that do not seem to fill an area of training that doesn't already exist. but is predicated on the idea that all PGY1s are the same (they aren't), and that there aren't PGY2's that are more specialized than their accreditation implies (there are).

I think the argument is obviously if someone has 10 year experience in PEDS without a residency then they would "qualify" for an interview. I think that is the reason for the hate. At a certain point, experience DOES trump your precious residency.

 

[KidPharmD]

I think the argument is obviously if someone has 10 year experience in PEDS without a residency then they would "qualify" for an interview. I think that is the reason for the hate. At a certain point, experience DOES trump your precious residency.

I absolutely agree that appropriate experience will trump residency. Just as the BPS offers residency or experience as a qualifier for every board certification, I have never seen a job posting that did not say residency or X number of years of relevant experience. I do not expect to be able to compete for a job right out of residency with a 10 year critical care veteran. I would expect to be able to compete (though not necessarily successfully) with someone with 10 years of mixed adult/peds staffing for a pediatric critical care position. Residency is not precious to me. It is a sacrifice (in time and salary) I have made to get accelerated training vs. staffing experience.

 

[confettiflyer]

Residency was just a means to an end, just the millennial version of this quaint thing called "on the job training" that employers used to do to people with degrees right out of school.

Best file that away with 8 track tapes, affordable college, and Ronald Reagan into the annals of history.

 

[awval999]

^Agree with confetti above (in fact to disagree with confetti is just admitting you are wrong so I recommend to never do that)

Residencies are a boom for employers. You are successfully trained in a few months and then you are a service extender for the duration of your residency. You learn. Employers get cheap service. Win/win for everyone but your bank account.

 

[oldstock]

Residency was just a means to an end, just the millennial version of this quaint thing called "on the job training" that employers used to do to people with degrees right out of school.

Best file that away with 8 track tapes, affordable college, and Ronald Reagan into the annals of history.

^Agree with confetti above (in fact to disagree with confetti is just admitting you are wrong so I recommend to never do that)

Residencies are a boom for employers. You are successfully trained in a few months and then you are a service extender for the duration of your residency. You learn. Employers get cheap service. Win/win for everyone but your bank account.

Employers would have never been in the position to take advantage of new pharmacists if there had not been too many schools opening. More schools are still opening means employers will be in even more positions of power to take advantage of new pharmacists, and even "old" pharmacists. Yes, you can look at residency as a mean to an end, but they will find more ways to make new pharmacists to slave for more years away and rob more from the ones that are already in the workforce. This means new pharmacists will have go a long and longer way before seeing any end. Meanwhile, no one will care about their student loans or their lives.

All is because we cannot stop schools from opening. Simple supply and demand. There is simply no jobs, not enough jobs, or decreasing numbers of jobs for the new troops of pharmacists that all pharmacy schools, new and old, continue pumping out every year. The way now and the future is that employers and schools will keep on cha ching cha ching all the way to the banks while pharmacists are struggling like some poor sheep to pay off their huge student loans with high interests, begging for their lives for jobs or keeping their jobs.

This is a depressing means to an end. And pathetic !!

(no offense to anyone here but this is what exactly what I feel seeing all these...)

 

[tungsten87]

I absolutely agree that appropriate experience will trump residency. Just as the BPS offers residency or experience as a qualifier for every board certification, I have never seen a job posting that did not say residency or X number of years of relevant experience. I do not expect to be able to compete for a job right out of residency with a 10 year critical care veteran. I would expect to be able to compete (though not necessarily successfully) with someone with 10 years of mixed adult/peds staffing for a pediatric critical care position. Residency is not precious to me. It is a sacrifice (in time and salary) I have made to get accelerated training vs. staffing experience.

Agreed - people on here act like it is crazy to do two years to specialize in transplant, peds (for instance) to get a clinical transplant or peds position. How else are you supposed to get this type of job if it is what you really want? One can't just magically fabricate 5-10 years of experience in a given field. What if I don't want to staff for 10 years and work hard to find an in for one of these positions? There are people out there that are motivated by things other than money, and for me, it is well worth the 100K+ pay cut over two years to get the clinical specialist position that I want and to be able to continue to pursue meaningful research. To each his or her own.

 

[oldstock]

Agreed - people on here act like it is crazy to do two years to specialize in transplant, peds (for instance) to get a clinical transplant or peds position. How else are you supposed to get this type of job if it is what you really want? One can't just magically fabricate 5-10 years of experience in a given field. What if I don't want to staff for 10 years and work hard to find an in for one of these positions?

It is ok to do 1 or maybe 2 years of residency to get the jobs you want. But you see the trend here ?? First, they said you would need a PharmD to practice as a pharmacist, then PGY1, then PGY2... They want you to do 3 years now instead of 2 for this PGY3. Then PGY4 ?? PGY 5 ?? .... PGY10 ?? Where and when will this trend stop ??

The thing I see is this is just one of the many ways that employers will exploit new pharmacy graduates just as what I have heard about "community/retail pharmacy residency" as the supply of pharmacy graduates is outstripping jobs/demand. Soon they will ask you to do PGY3 to work at CVS or Walgreen when there are 300 schools pumping out ton of new PharmDs.

There are people out there that are motivated by things other than money, and for me, it is well worth the 100K+ pay cut over two years to get the clinical specialist position that I want and to be able to continue to pursue meaningful research. To each his or her own.

but congrats !!

 

[tungsten87]

It is ok to do 1 or maybe 2 years of residency to get the jobs you want. But you see the trend here ?? First, they said you would need a PharmD to practice as a pharmacist, then PGY1, then PGY2... They want you to do 3 years now instead of 2 for this PGY3. Then PGY4 ?? PGY 5 ?? .... PGY10 ?? Where and when will this trend stop ??

The thing I see is this is just one of the many ways that employers will exploit new pharmacy graduates just as what I have heard about "community/retail pharmacy residency" as the supply of pharmacy graduates is outstripping jobs/demand. Soon they will ask you to do PGY3 to work at CVS or Walgreen when there are 300 schools pumping out ton of new PharmDs.




but congrats !!

PGY-2s have been around for quite some time now, and I wouldn't call it a trend based on the fact that two folks from UC Denver published one article suggesting that PGY-3s may be beneficial for certain positions. The main thing that bothers me about it is that for some of the PGY-3s they suggest, many already exist as PGY-2s and I believe that this is already enough to generate competent practitioners.

 

[BMBiology]

It is all about competition now. Everyone is trying to get the upper hand (PGY1, PGY2, MBA, fellowship, etc.). In the mean time, everyone is piling more and more debt.

But do you know what have not changed? our work and our salary.