Is it too late too do a residency?

[AminoAcid777]

Hey Guys,

OK, so I graduated in 2009 with a Pharm D. I graduated second in my class (3.95 GPA), held a lot of different leadership positions with APhA, ASHP, and Rho Chi among others. After I graduated, I made the biggest mistake of my life and decided to take the retail route. Now, almost 2 years out of school, I feel extreme regret that I didn't do a residency.

So my question is, is it too late? Should I leave my high paying retail job, that new grads would kill to have, and risk doing a residency (thats if I'm even fortunate enough to get one). I hear the clinical pharmacist job market is pretty tight, and its only going to get worse. I would love to get some input from other ppl, that may ease this major decision making process!

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[PumpkinSmasher]

Hey Guys,

OK, so I graduated in 2009 with a Pharm D. I graduated second in my class (3.95 GPA), held a lot of different leadership positions with APhA, ASHP, and Rho Chi among others. After I graduated, I made the biggest mistake of my life and decided to take the retail route. Now, almost 2 years out of school, I feel extreme regret that I didn't do a residency.

So my question is, is it too late? Should I leave my high paying retail job, that new grads would kill to have, and risk doing a residency (thats if I'm even fortunate enough to get one). I hear the clinical pharmacist job market is pretty tight, and its only going to get worse. I would love to get some input from other ppl, that may ease this major decision making process!

You have to do something...did you enjoy your clinical rotations in school? If you already hate retail pharmacy a couple years out of school, you are going to be miserable for the rest of your career, 20-30 years. That is too long to do something you hate 40 hrs a week.

 

[lorain]

i was in the same situation, except the great grades and different reason to do retail

the bottom line is, and what you need to explain is: what did you do with your time after school? working retail is a strike AGAINST you....so how do you balance that on your application?

but yes, I would do a residency if retail isnt working out for you

 

[lazydazy]

It can't hurt to apply. I had every intention of applying and doing a residency upon graduation, however, my husband lost his job so I took a retail job. I applied for a residency landed one. You can do it. You have to make sure that you've done something to show over the past two years that show cases you (i.e. I volunteered in an Am Care clinic since I know I wanted a residency focused in Am Care). Good luck with your decision!

 

[moolman]

In my opinion, you are getting bad advice.

Why the heck would you do a residency especially since it's been awhile since you graduated. It's not unheard for people to do a residency after working retail a couple of years, I've actually met two people who did that. But I really think it's the wrong route to go, especially since you are probably used to the salary you are making right now.

I'm doing a residency, it starts next week. So this is coming from someone doing one.

You don't need a residency to work in a hospital. I will give a very, very personal example. My wife is a pharmacist too. She graduate, worked retail. She applied for a job at a smaller hospital. No residency. After 1 year of experience, she applied to a big name hosipital, they took her. She's not the only one that took this path. Many, many pharmacist I know did not do a residency to work inpatient or amb care. Yes, it is an easier path but at this point, I don't think a big pay cut is the way to go.

You're considering a residency, meaning you are probably willing to relocate anywhere. Go find some small, rinky dink hospital in the middle of no where. Put in your 1-2 years and then after that go where you want to go. Once you have the experience, it does become an even field. Yes, a residency may look more impressive on your resume but is it worth 60-70k a year.

 

[gotdrugs]

In my opinion, you are getting bad advice.

Why the heck would you do a residency especially since it's been awhile since you graduated. It's not unheard for people to do a residency after working retail a couple of years, I've actually met two people who did that. But I really think it's the wrong route to go, especially since you are probably used to the salary you are making right now.

I'm doing a residency, it starts next week. So this is coming from someone doing one.

You don't need a residency to work in a hospital. I will give a very, very personal example. My wife is a pharmacist too. She graduate, worked retail. She applied for a job at a smaller hospital. No residency. After 1 year of experience, she applied to a big name hosipital, they took her. She's not the only one that took this path. Many, many pharmacist I know did not do a residency to work inpatient or amb care. Yes, it is an easier path but at this point, I don't think a big pay cut is the way to go.

You're considering a residency, meaning you are probably willing to relocate anywhere. Go find some small, rinky dink hospital in the middle of no where. Put in your 1-2 years and then after that go where you want to go. Once you have the experience, it does become an even field. Yes, a residency may look more impressive on your resume but is it worth 60-70k a year.

For someone who is a pharmacist and really wants to do a residency for specific goal(s) in their career (e.g. career change, etc), the above post is not just bad advice, but very bad advice.

And this is coming from someone who was a pharmacist for 5 years before doing 2 residencies.

My 5 years experience as a staff pharmacist would not have gotten me the positions I've held post-residency training. Not saying if it's fair or unfair, it's fact. HR nor the DOP never would have even looked beyond my resume/CV.

Residency isn't for everyone - many people have great careers without doing one. And the advice of evaluating if it's worth the opportunity cost of the lost income is very solid advice. But to dismiss them saying oh, just work a couple years and it won't matter is just false in today's times and job market.

 

[moolman]

We can agree to disagree then. While I am doing a residency so maybe I should be bias towards a residency. I still don't believe that at this time it's necessary to do one to reach any career path in pharmacy. I do agree it will be easier to reach your career goal with a residency because it will look more impressive and give you that extra push but it's not an impossibility. I've met plenty of DOP and others that did not do a residency and they are working side by side next to people who did a residency. Yes, I will agree that maybe the residency people had an easier path to get there but they are doing the same job.

From what I have experienced, a lot of it has to do with just plain dumb luck where a position opens up and they need someone, networking where you meet someone and they tell you about a job opening, more than if you did a residency.

I still think cutting your salary by more than half is much more painful than trying to do it without a residency.

Just so I know, what positions can you never reach in pharmacy if you never did a residency? Nuclear? I don't know myself but I may not know the whole picture and once again, I do agree that with a residency getting some position will be much easier.

 

[gotdrugs]

We can agree to disagree then. While I am doing a residency so maybe I should be bias towards a residency. I still don't believe that at this time it's necessary to do one to reach any career path in pharmacy. I do agree it will be easier to reach your career goal with a residency because it will look more impressive and give you that extra push but it's not an impossibility. I've met plenty of DOP and others that did not do a residency and they are working side by side next to people who did a residency. Yes, I will agree that maybe the residency people had an easier path to get there but they are doing the same job.

From what I have experienced, a lot of it has to do with just plain dumb luck where a position opens up and they need someone, networking where you meet someone and they tell you about a job opening, more than if you did a residency.

I still think cutting your salary by more than half is much more painful than trying to do it without a residency.

Just so I know, what positions can you never reach in pharmacy if you never did a residency? Nuclear? I don't know myself but I may not know the whole picture and once again, I do agree that with a residency getting some position will be much easier.

Yes, agree to disagree, while, sure there are exceptions, but that's always the case.

Again, it depends on what you want to do.

Want to be a DOP? Well, a residency isn't a must, not at all. In fact the only residency training that helps you is if you do a PGY-2 (or PGY1/2 combined) in Hospital Administration. I did a Pharmacy Practice and Critical Care - this is not appropriate training in order to be a DOP and does not give me an advantage. If anything it's a disadvantage because I spent those years doing patient care instead of learning how to be an administrator. So your DOP examples are terrible ones.

Want to be in academia, specifically non-tenure track because you don't want to do a lot of bench research but still be in academia? Good luck without a residency or fellowship. And I'm not talking adjunct faculty, but actual faculty. Are there exceptions? Sure, but few and far between.

Want to be a Clinical Specialist? While there are some out there w/o residency training, those are becoming more uncommon. Esp now we are in the era were many people are getting residencies.

I've been the latter two positions. My residency training (Pharmacy Practice and Specialty) were not "recommended," "strongly desired," etc, they were required. In fact for the position I have now they didn't even let *very good* internal candidates even interview for the position. Not saying it's fair or unfair, saying it's a fact. Are there clinical specialist positions out there that hire without residency training? Sure, but again are getting fewer and farer between. And definetly will be harder in today's age than your thought of going to a small rural hospital and working for 1-2 years and then having an 'even playing field'

Want to go into Nuclear? Residency is a waste of time.

Again, it depends on what your career goals are.

EDIT: and again as a disclaimer as I said in my original post, many people have great careers without them. But I can speak for myself that my career would not be what it is without them.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Hey Guys,

OK, so I graduated in 2009 with a Pharm D. I graduated second in my class (3.95 GPA), held a lot of different leadership positions with APhA, ASHP, and Rho Chi among others. After I graduated, I made the biggest mistake of my life and decided to take the retail route. Now, almost 2 years out of school, I feel extreme regret that I didn't do a residency.

So my question is, is it too late? Should I leave my high paying retail job, that new grads would kill to have, and risk doing a residency (thats if I'm even fortunate enough to get one). I hear the clinical pharmacist job market is pretty tight, and its only going to get worse. I would love to get some input from other ppl, that may ease this major decision making process!

The answer is not too late. My wife's friend couldn't match last year, and had to work a year of retail. But she applied again and matched this year. She's too is taking a huge pay cut. The bottom line: ask yourself, can you stand being a retail pharmacist until you retire. If no, then the question is half answered for you. You just need to weight the pros and cons of going with non-residency required staffing positions in inpatient or long term care, vs. residency/fellowship required clinical/management/industry

 

[moolman]

I do agree that your career would not be where it is without a residency and I'm sure it was made a lot easier with a residency. But it's not impossible, I just see too many people in clinical/mangement/industry positions that xiphoid2010 mentioned that didn't do a residency.

Like I said, I think a residency is worth the time, I'm doing one too but I can't agree on the fully required part. At least not at the present time. I know in the future it very well may be. Just like I was told that to get a residency that you needed to publish, have a high GPA, be involved and now I see all these people with none of those things, like myself..haha.. that go really good residencies.

There's the hype that ASHP pushes out every year about residency and there's what you see in real life. I see more people get jobs out of dumb luck cause a spot opended up at the right time rather than they had some qualification like a residency and got the job.

At the same time, this could be a regional thing. I'm in CA we're oversaturated with pharmacist but there are still a lot of jobs.

 

[patmcd]

I do agree that your career would not be where it is without a residency and I'm sure it was made a lot easier with a residency. But it's not impossible, I just see too many people in clinical/mangement/industry positions that xiphoid2010 mentioned that didn't do a residency.

To be fair a large percentage of those people in clinical/management/industry positions you speak of were able to obtain them because when they started there just wasn't as significant of an emphasis on residency training. The desire for residency training pharmacists is something that has really started to snowball only in the last ~5 years.

 

[xiphoid2010]

To be fair a large percentage of those people in clinical/management/industry positions you speak of were able to obtain them because when they started there just wasn't as significant of an emphasis on residency training. The desire for residency training pharmacists is something that has really started to snowball only in the last ~5 years.

Yeah, when you are cranking out this many residents annually, it's not long before it's the new requirement. The last generation without Pharm.D or residency in those positions are going away.

Don't look at residency as a way to make more money, because it will take a long time to make up for the loss in income for that 1 year. Do a residency to future proof your career. If a person has any aspiration beyond staffing, I would recommend a residency.

 

[patmcd]

Don't look at residency as a way to make more money, because it will take a long time to make up for the loss in income for that 1 year. Do a residency to future proof your career. If a person has any aspiration beyond staffing, I would recommend a residency.

I would look at is a good thing for the individual and for the profession as a whole. To be fair I am a little biased about the subject as a resident

 

[xiphoid2010]

I would look at is a good thing for the individual and for the profession as a whole. To be fair I am a little biased about the subject as a resident

Yeah, finishing off the last 4 days of my residency here too. I can definitely understand why 1 year of this counts as 2-3 years of work experience. But you are correct, you come out with so much more capable and confident of your abilities.

 

[janeno]

What do most of you think about PGY2: necessary to stay competitive in the market or an overkill? I always thought that I would pursue 2 years of residency, but now I'm starting to have my doubts.

 

[xiphoid2010]

What do most of you think about PGY2: necessary to stay competitive in the market or an overkill? I always thought that I would pursue 2 years of residency, but now I'm starting to have my doubts.

In fact, at this point, if someone asked me whether they should do residency or not, I would tell them. If you are ok working the rest of your career as staff pharmacist, go get a job ASAP while. Of if you want to go clinical, I would recommend that you prepare yourself for going the whole 9 yards - PGY-2. I have a feeling that 2 years from now, PGY-1 will be a dime a dozen. You are already seeing traditionally PGY-1 jobs shifting towards PGY-2s, (ambulatory care, internal medicine). Mean while, many of the PGY-2 areas such as oncology, psych, management are still hot.
Start a PGY-1, do both matching and job hunting. If you find a job before the match withdrawal deadline, go for it. This way you keep the options open.

 

[pfaction]

First, pharmacists were in demand - staff and retail.
Then retail got saturated, staff got saturated - people looked to residencies as lifelines.
You are 100% right, PGY-1's are going to be saturated (a lot of people didn't get matched, actually...from my school, at least) and PGY-2's are going to be the next life line.

OP, a lot of pharmacists are looking for jobs right now. If you think your job is secure and you're making money, stay with it. I am just a pharmacy student, P2. So I defer to the advice of others above me. What happens if you do a residency and can't find a job, and retail is done? You're done.

 

[patmcd]

What do most of you think about PGY2: necessary to stay competitive in the market or an overkill? I always thought that I would pursue 2 years of residency, but now I'm starting to have my doubts.

I would say necessary if you want a "clinical" position and want to stay in a major metro area. If you're willing to live in a smaller area, then you can probably get by without a PGY2.

There always other options outside of or in addition to PGY2 programs.... i.e. fellowships (research, industry) if you feel the need to set yourself further apart or want options outside of straight "clinical" work.

 

[ucrx]

I do agree that your career would not be where it is without a residency and I'm sure it was made a lot easier with a residency. But it's not impossible, I just see too many people in clinical/mangement/industry positions that xiphoid2010 mentioned that didn't do a residency.

How old/experienced are these people? I would guess that they have been in the workforce for a while and got their positions when residencies were less common. With the number of residents that we have today, the odds of finding a clinical position without residency are probably very slim.

 

[AminoAcid777]

Thank you all very much for your input.

I went to a retail meeting yesterday, and I can't help but think the colleagues I work with are so unprofessional, and driven my money. Many of them don't even keep up with new pharmacy information. I just don't think the future is bright for retail pharmacists, and things have changed so much in the past 6 years, I cant imagine how much worse it will get. I'm only 25, I cant imagine doing this **** for another 25 to 35 years.

There is no doubt in my mind, that I was meant to do clinical pharmacy. I truly have a passion for learning, and I truly miss the work I did as an intern during my last year of hospital rotations. So I am definitely going to apply to a residency, although it scares me that I may not be able to find a job. I already have a buttload of student loans, so having a job is critical. Do you guys know a lot of residents that can't find jobs after graduation? Do you think I'll have a tough time finding a job after residency?

Thanks

 

[aabdraff57]

Thank you all very much for your input.

I went to a retail meeting yesterday, and I can't help but think the colleagues I work with are so unprofessional, and driven my money. Many of them don't even keep up with new pharmacy information. I just don't think the future is bright for retail pharmacists, and things have changed so much in the past 6 years, I cant imagine how much worse it will get. I'm only 25, I cant imagine doing this **** for another 25 to 35 years.

There is no doubt in my mind, that I was meant to do clinical pharmacy. I truly have a passion for learning, and I truly miss the work I did as an intern during my last year of hospital rotations. So I am definitely going to apply to a residency, although it scares me that I may not be able to find a job. I already have a buttload of student loans, so having a job is critical. Do you guys know a lot of residents that can't find jobs after graduation? Do you think I'll have a tough time finding a job after residency?

Thanks

I'm doing my internship at an independent pharmacy right now and I'm thinking seriously about applying for a hospital-based residency position. True, there are many sacrifices to be made (with the highest stipend that I've seen is $43K/year) but it seems that the experiential learning would be so rewarding!

I've been scouting the employment market for retail pharmacists locally (don't want to move) and it is rather bleak. Many positions are for hospital pharmacists and almost all of them require an at least a PGY-1 residency. However, the scopes are very diverse: Ambulatory, NICU, Oncology, and even geriatric pharmacy.

Have you tried working in an independent, non-chain, retail? Perhaps what you truly need is a slower-paced pharmacy, not a complete change in the area of Pharmacy.

Just my two cents. Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[tashka]

I agree with moolman. Switching to a small hospital would be a better route for you to take. It might take some time to find a position, but this CAN be done without residency. Hospital experience will help you a lot in seaching for other positions. I am a new graduate, work in a small hospital and love it.