Is it just me or are some Carribean medical students plain delusional?

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I just want to go on record as saying i have never heard so much dribble from such a group of entitled dinguses in my life. I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice my wife and i have raised 4 kids one the oldest of which is a critical care physician here in the US, now it is my turn to go to medical school and at 54 my best and probably only shot is the FMG pathway. so grow up and stop assuming your the brains of the medical community, not all doctors are made right here at home in the old USA.
I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

Hate to be that guy..

but it's "you're".

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

@wickey is a good example why the Caribbean system is evil. Best case scenario: you get through all the hoops of fire to be eligible to apply to the match (pass all the marks on first attempt, do WELL on the usmle, etc) and become one of the 50% of those eligible Caribbean students that actually does match, and will be an attending starting at 61-65 and be >300k in debt. Worst case is the carib leaves you in ruin, emotionally and financially, that you will never recover from. The idea that everyone here is elitist for trying to warn others of the lies these school tell applicants is laughable. BTW, also laughable is the idea that no one else here has served their country or has extensive patient care experience.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

That's a lot of debt burden to undertake and out in a family with such a risky path where half don't make it out.

Remember it's 50% of students that reach the match application in ms4, not everyone who shows up first day of ms1 and given a short white coat with (ironically) the caduceus symbol pressed on it. The match rate of ms1 students, if anyone could access this information, would be far lower.

 

[dpmd]

I just want to go on record as saying i have never heard so much dribble from such a group of entitled dinguses in my life. I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice my wife and i have raised 4 kids one the oldest of which is a critical care physician here in the US, now it is my turn to go to medical school and at 54 my best and probably only shot is the FMG pathway. so grow up and stop assuming your the brains of the medical community, not all doctors are made right here at home in the old USA.
I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

So that's a yes on the delusional thing.

No one is claiming only the US can produce capable physicians (or that it doesn't produce some ****ty ones). The issue with the carribean schools is they encourage this delusion that you will be the success story that shows up everyone who said it couldn't be done. Obviously that isn't statistically true. They prey on people so single mindedly focused on a certain goal that they can't see that if they can't qualify for US MD or DO acceptance they would probably be better off doing something else. It is sad enough for the young folks who then get to live life saddled with debt they may never be able to pay off, but for someone who has a well paying job, the opportunity cost of pursuing a path that has such a small chance of "success" (which we measure mostly by evaluating what percent of people get any residency so they can actually work as a doctor, rather than what percent of people end up in a field they desire) is incredible.

 

[jordansnfootbal]

Bruh every cousin I know that has gone to a Carribbean school is now doing residency in the U.S. Its either my family full of go-getters or something ain't adding up lol.

 

[username456789]

I just want to go on record as saying i have never heard so much dribble from such a group of entitled dinguses in my life. I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice my wife and i have raised 4 kids one the oldest of which is a critical care physician here in the US, now it is my turn to go to medical school and at 54 my best and probably only shot is the FMG pathway. so grow up and stop assuming your the brains of the medical community, not all doctors are made right here at home in the old USA.
I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

Lol

This is almost as good as the navy seal copypasta.

 

[username456789]

So that's a yes on the delusional thing.

No one is claiming only the US can produce capable physicians (or that it doesn't produce some ****ty ones). The issue with the carribean schools is they encourage this delusion that you will be the success story that shows up everyone who said it couldn't be done. Obviously that isn't statistically true. They prey on people so single mindedly focused on a certain goal that they can't see that if they can't qualify for US MD or DO acceptance they would probably be better off doing something else. It is sad enough for the young folks who then get to live life saddled with debt they may never be able to pay off, but for someone who has a well paying job, the opportunity cost of pursuing a path that has such a small chance of "success" (which we measure mostly by evaluating what percent of people get any residency so they can actually work as a doctor, rather than what percent of people end up in a field they desire) is incredible.

Even if that poster is for real, and everything went according to plan, he would go from having Medicare fund his residency to signing up for Medicare himself in the blink of an eye.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

Sorry, but somehow I doubt this attitude is going to help you no matter how much life experience you have. Best way to show up snot nosed kids is to let your life show the results, not go calling names like they would.

 

[Goro]

Bruh everyone cousin I know that has gone to a Carribbean school is now doing residency in the U.S. Its either my family full of go-getters or something ain't adding up lol.

So your anecdote has more validity than NRMP data that shows the dismal math rates for Carib grads?

 

[neoevolution]

Bruh everyone cousin I know that has gone to a Carribbean school is now doing residency in the U.S. Its either my family full of go-getters or something ain't adding up lol.

Carib schools hide their stats, but plenty of people who've attended or dug through their websites would estimate around 50% of their matriculants or more don't graduate or match. The real problem is that students who struggle in Carib get kicked out or can't match, whereas US schools have really high graduation and match rates because of how much support they provide.

Carib students also need to work so much harder just to get the same results. Even the big schools mention how most of their grads need to find spots outside the match, which is essentially unheard of for a US grad

 

[Goro]

Carib schools hide their stats, but plenty of people who've attended or dug through their websites would estimate around 50% of their matriculants or more don't graduate or match. The real problem is that students who struggle in Carib get kicked out or can't match, whereas US schools have really high graduation and match rates because of how much support they provide.

Carib students also need to work so much harder just to get the same results. Even the big schools mention how most of their grads need to find spots outside the match, which is essentially unheard of for a US grad

Indeed. If the Carib schools were on the mainland, they'd be shut down by LCME, and their CEOs sued by fleeced students. They engage in educational malpractice. Cue the Lotto winners, sputtering about NMRP.

 

[neoevolution]

Indeed. If the Carib schools were on the mainland, they'd be shut down by LCME, and their CEOs sued by fleeced students. They engage in educational malpractice. Cue the Lotto winners, sputtering about NMRP.

The crazy part is how the Big 4 are somehow given an exemption to allow students to use federal loans to pay for them.

 

[Spaghetti Shark]

The crazy part is how the Big 4 are somehow given an exemption to allow students to use federal loans to pay for them.

I think it's the idea of "too big to fail." There was a really interesting Frontline documentary that touched on for-profit education (undergrad institutions primarily) and how it ran the student loan industry and that these 'institutions' became so big that shutting all of these 'institutions' down would cause more damage than keeping them open. Since some of these Caribbean medical schools are run by these larger conglomerates (AUC is owned by DeVry for instance) they're still open even though it's been shown that they're incredibly predatory.

Documentary is here: College, Inc.
I had to watch it twice because it boggles my mind that this is allowed by our own government.

Edit: AUC is owned by DeVry, not Ross. Got my schools mixed up!

 

[jordansnfootbal]

So your anecdote has more validity than NRMP data that shows the dismal math rates for Carib grads?

I'm just saying you can make it from anywhere just depends on the work you put in regardless of stats. I have my family to attest for that because I don't know any member who has not landed a residency in the U.S.

 

[IlDestriero]

I just want to go on record as saying i have never heard so much dribble from such a group of entitled dinguses in my life. I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice my wife and i have raised 4 kids one the oldest of which is a critical care physician here in the US, now it is my turn to go to medical school and at 54 my best and probably only shot is the FMG pathway. so grow up and stop assuming your the brains of the medical community, not all doctors are made right here at home in the old USA.
I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

Good luck to you. There are successes out of the Caribbean, and many failures. Keep that in mind before you sign the check.
And good luck finding a residency at nearly 60. We wouldn't take you. That might be the bigger hurdle you'll face.
Do you really want to be an 80 hr a week intern at 59? At 59 I'll be 70% time and counting the days until I just retire.

PS I'll see your born here, raised here, and fought for my country, and raise you with educated and trained here. ️
--
Il Destriero

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

If anyone knows of any resident in the country that is +58 years old, feel free to cite it. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen it. But this improbability, known by carib schools, is marketed as "giving an opportunity" that the closed-minded US medical schools won't give. Just like giving the opportunity to take huge sums of money from the person who got a 3.2 and 19 MCAT to have a go at it for four more years.

If you don't get a athletic scholarship in high school, what if there's a four year training program for huge $$$ where some finish the program and make it to college and the pros, but most drop out or never get a scholarship offer and still owe money with nothing to show for it. And even though you're 5'4" they'd like to let you enter this program. Would it be ethical to offer this opportunity? Each person would have to decide for themselves if they want to take such a gamble.

Saving for retirement and repaying >300k in loans starting at 61 with what working years you have left, I can't imagine. But much worse, and statistically more likely, would be repaying >200-300k at 58 on a nurse's salary.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice .

This explains a lot. Also an oxymoron. If 30 years of nursing has enabled you to better care for patients than Harvard grads, why not continue to nurse?

 

[Goro]

I'm just saying you can make it from anywhere just depends on the work you put in regardless of stats. I have my family to attest for that because I don't know any member who has not landed a residency in the U.S.

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success one faces by going to a Carib school.

 

[dpmd]

Lmao... this chick serious? What a terrible idea. Most doctors will want to retire by the time you finish training.

This is why you don't marry an RN. They can go bonkers at any time.

Pretty sure this is a dude.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Pretty sure this is a dude.

It's 2017. Dudes can nurse. Ladies can marry ladies.

 

[Stagg737]

This really is the thread that keeps on giving.

 

[DokterMom]

I'm just saying you can make it from anywhere just depends on the work you put in regardless of stats. I have my family to attest for that because I don't know any member who has not landed a residency in the U.S.

What this proves is just that nepotism is alive and well --

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

It's not up to you to point out the delusions of others, especially in the small position of power you hold right now. Check your privilege and let it go.

The funny thing is that self-righteous snots like the OP and people who unironically use the phrase "check your privilege" are jointly responsible for our awful current political climate.

 

[dpmd]

It's 2017. Dudes can nurse. Ladies can marry ladies.

I know ladies can marry ladies and they can raise children, but based on the tone of the post my money is on dude.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I know ladies can marry ladies and they can raise children, but based on the tone of the post my money is on dude.

I know.

 

[PrettyLadyDoc24]

The funny thing is that self-righteous snots like the OP and people who unironically use the phrase "check your privilege" are jointly responsible for our awful current political climate.

And the fact that you decided to crawl out from under a bridge for your daily dose of schaudenfreude and comment in a thread you don't belong in is why medicine has an equally awful, hateful climate.

 

[W19]

We all in US med school thought we were going to be in the top 10% of our class... It does not surprise me that Carib students are aiming for neurosurgery at MGH.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

And the fact that you decided to crawl out from under a bridge for your daily dose of schaudenfreude and comment in a thread you don't belong in is why medicine has an equally awful, hateful climate.

One, it's schadenfreude, and two, it is a perfect description for how I feel when I get to point out that the person who is talking about an "awful, hateful climate" is insisting that others "don't belong" on a certain forum simply because they aren't a card-carrying member of your exclusive club. I love reading the perspectives of a variety of medical professionals; the entire SDN is an amazing resource for that, but is also well-populated with exclusionary, judgemental, hateful people. Obviously keeping these groups in the back row is ideal for medical PR - whether we're talking about straightforward snobbery like the OP, or the more insidious mentality that you propound. The ad hominem privilege checking phenomenon is a conversation ender, not a starter, and carries an implicit "or else", which is why the embarrassing, violent scenes we've seen at UC Berkeley or Evergreen State were an inevitability. "You don't belooong here. Check your priiiivilege. Your epidermis is showing. My dad can beat up your dad." Hmm.. actually that's a pretty appealing line of argumentation. I'll try it out at recess against the other 8 year olds.

 

[Stagg737]

One, it's schadenfreude, and two, it is a perfect description for how I feel when I get to point out that the person who is talking about an "awful, hateful climate" is insisting that others "don't belong" on a certain forum simply because they aren't a card-carrying member of your exclusive club. I love reading the perspectives of a variety of medical professionals; the entire SDN is an amazing resource for that, but is also well-populated with exclusionary, judgemental, hateful people. Obviously keeping these groups in the back row is ideal for medical PR - whether we're talking about straightforward snobbery like the OP, or the more insidious mentality that you propound. The ad hominem privilege checking phenomenon is a conversation ender, not a starter, and carries an implicit "or else", which is why the embarrassing, violent scenes we've seen at UC Berkeley or Evergreen State were an inevitability. "You shouldn't be posting here. Check your privilege. Your epidermis is showing. My dad can beat up your dad." Hmm.. actually that's a pretty appealing line of argumentation. I'll try it out at recess against the other 8 year olds.

While I don't think it's OP's place to pull anyone aside and give them career advice on rotation, I d0n't think his initial reaction was snobbery at all. The fact is, it's nearly impossible for people from the Carib to match into the hyper-competitive fields like ortho (of the 726 filled positions, only 7 were filled by IMGs) or uro (of the 317 filled positions, 11 were filled by IMGs). So for OP to encounter 2 Carib students at once shooting for those fields implies that they're either total rockstars or uninformed/delusional. If I encountered those individuals on rotation I'd also be interested as to whether those students actually knew their odds or if they were just misinformed and delusional students (which many Caribbean students unfortunately are).

 

[username456789]

One, it's schadenfreude, and two, it is a perfect description for how I feel when I get to point out that the person who is talking about an "awful, hateful climate" is insisting that others "don't belong" on a certain forum simply because they aren't a card-carrying member of your exclusive club. I love reading the perspectives of a variety of medical professionals; the entire SDN is an amazing resource for that, but is also well-populated with exclusionary, judgemental, hateful people. Obviously keeping these groups in the back row is ideal for medical PR - whether we're talking about straightforward snobbery like the OP, or the more insidious mentality that you propound. The ad hominem privilege checking phenomenon is a conversation ender, not a starter, and carries an implicit "or else", which is why the embarrassing, violent scenes we've seen at UC Berkeley or Evergreen State were an inevitability. "You don't belooong here. Check your priiiivilege. Your epidermis is showing. My dad can beat up your dad." Hmm.. actually that's a pretty appealing line of argumentation. I'll try it out at recess against the other 8 year olds.

See, epidermis means your HAIR.

 

[NeuResurgens]

 

[Lawpy]

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

One, it's schadenfreude, and two, it is a perfect description for how I feel when I get to point out that the person who is talking about an "awful, hateful climate" is insisting that others "don't belong" on a certain forum simply because they aren't a card-carrying member of your exclusive club. I love reading the perspectives of a variety of medical professionals; the entire SDN is an amazing resource for that, but is also well-populated with exclusionary, judgemental, hateful people. Obviously keeping these groups in the back row is ideal for medical PR - whether we're talking about straightforward snobbery like the OP, or the more insidious mentality that you propound. The ad hominem privilege checking phenomenon is a conversation ender, not a starter, and carries an implicit "or else", which is why the embarrassing, violent scenes we've seen at UC Berkeley or Evergreen State were an inevitability. "You don't belooong here. Check your priiiivilege. Your epidermis is showing. My dad can beat up your dad." Hmm.. actually that's a pretty appealing line of argumentation. I'll try it out at recess against the other 8 year olds.

If you're going to correct someone's spelling, you should probably make sure your spelling and grammar are on point.

 

[singasongofjoy]

If anyone knows of any resident in the country that is +58 years old, feel free to cite it. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen it. But this improbability, known by carib schools, is marketed as "giving an opportunity" that the closed-minded US medical schools won't give. Just like giving the opportunity to take huge sums of money from the person who got a 3.2 and 19 MCAT to have a go at it for four more years.

If you don't get a athletic scholarship in high school, what if there's a four year training program for huge $$$ where some finish the program and make it to college and the pros, but most drop out or never get a scholarship offer and still owe money with nothing to show for it. And even though you're 5'4" they'd like to let you enter this program. Would it be ethical to offer this opportunity? Each person would have to decide for themselves if they want to take such a gamble.

Saving for retirement and repaying >300k in loans starting at 61 with what working years you have left, I can't imagine. But much worse, and statistically more likely, would be repaying >200-300k at 58 on a nurse's salary.

I've got no dog in this fight. But since you asked, I know of someone who was a resident at 58+; she started med school in mid to late 50s (I think) in the US and is now in her 70s practicing as a psychiatrist-- knows her stuff and spunky as hell- one of my favorite people and no plans of fully retiring any time soon. But she prob wasn't worried about saving for retirement, having married a neurologist. one of a kind, that one- I miss her. So N=1 on the residency post-middle-age.

 

[Stagg737]

I've got no dog in this fight. But since you asked, I know of someone who was a resident at 58+; she started med school in mid to late 50s (I think) in the US and is now in her 70s practicing as a psychiatrist-- knows her stuff and spunky as hell- one of my favorite people and no plans of fully retiring any time soon. But she prob wasn't worried about saving for retirement, having married a neurologist. one of a kind, that one- I miss her. So N=1 on the residency post-middle-age.

It certainly happens, the question isn't "Can someone entering residency in their 50s+ be a solid physician/complete the training?", it's "is the shelf life that individual would have as a physician worth the financial, emotional, and physical stress worth it?". For someone who doesn't have to worry about the finances at all and who would be bored with retirement/whatever otherwise it's fine from their perspective, but for someone who may need to seriously dip into their savings/retirement or who isn't physically or mentally up to the stress it's just not worth it. I think more often that not the latter situation is true.

There's also the question of is it ethical to give a training position to someone who may only practice for 10 years instead of someone who may practice for 40+ years. Imo, that's really not that big of a deal, but the people who seem to fear a physician shortage and see a large portion of physicians retiring in the near future may find it to be a point worth addressing (especially if it's a field with less available positions to begin with).

 

[W19]

There's also the question of is it ethical to give a training position to someone who may only practice for 10 years instead of someone who may practice for 40+ years. Imo, that's really not that big of a deal, but the people who seem to fear a physician shortage and see a large portion of physicians retiring in the near future may find it to be a point worth addressing (especially if it's a field with less available positions to begin with).

At what age do you draw the line?

 

[Stagg737]

At what age do you draw the line?

I don't, I've just heard some people use age as an argument against accepting someone like earlier in this thread.

 

[gyngyn]

Can we all remember to keep it civil, please?

 

[esob]

I don't, I've just heard some people use age as an argument against accepting someone like earlier in this thread.

This argument has been debunked countless times by any number of valid arguments, the most staggering of which in my mind is that half the docs surveyed in any given year say they wouldn't choose medicine again. Though I don't have any statistical numbers to back it up, I'd bet my 4.0 on the idea that this number is significantly lower for non-trads. But if you don't like that one, you can choose from the idea that Doc A may decide to drop out of medicine after 5 years instead of practicing for 40 (perhaps doing something more lucrative because he was in it for the money from the beginning), that Doc A may get hit my a city bus after 5 years, or quite simply that Doc A may just be a ***tty doc for 40 years while Doc B is an amazing one for 10; who do you want for your appendicitis at 3 Am?

 

[Goro]

At what age do you draw the line?

At some, one has to say that medical schools are not the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I would draw the line at 50.. FYI, our oldest student was 53

 

[W19]

At some, one has to say that medical schools are not the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I would draw the line at 50.. FYI, our oldest student was 53

I would even go lower... Would draw it at 40.

 

[Stagg737]

This argument has been debunked countless times by any number of valid arguments, the most staggering of which in my mind is that half the docs surveyed in any given year say they wouldn't choose medicine again. Though I don't have any statistical numbers to back it up, I'd bet my 4.0 on the idea that this number is significantly lower for non-trads. But if you don't like that one, you can choose from the idea that Doc A may decide to drop out of medicine after 5 years instead of practicing for 40 (perhaps doing something more lucrative because he was in it for the money from the beginning), that Doc A may get hit my a city bus after 5 years, or quite simply that Doc A may just be a ***tty doc for 40 years while Doc B is an amazing one for 10; who do you want for your appendicitis at 3 Am?

Well it clearly hasn't been debunked well enough, because an Adcom member here has said he draws the line at 50, and an attending physician said his residency program wouldn't take a 60 year old. Direct quotes since you seem to not care about reading:

Good luck to you. There are successes out of the Caribbean, and many failures. Keep that in mind before you sign the check.
And good luck finding a residency at nearly 60. We wouldn't take you. That might be the bigger hurdle you'll face.
Do you really want to be an 80 hr a week intern at 59? At 59 I'll be 70% time and counting the days until I just retire.

PS I'll see your born here, raised here, and fought for my country, and raise you with educated and trained here. ️
--
Il Destriero

At some, one has to say that medical schools are not the Make-A-Wish Foundation. I would draw the line at 50.. FYI, our oldest student was 53

 

[username456789]

This argument has been debunked countless times by any number of valid arguments, the most staggering of which in my mind is that half the docs surveyed in any given year say they wouldn't choose medicine again. Though I don't have any statistical numbers to back it up, I'd bet my 4.0 on the idea that this number is significantly lower for non-trads. But if you don't like that one, you can choose from the idea that Doc A may decide to drop out of medicine after 5 years instead of practicing for 40 (perhaps doing something more lucrative because he was in it for the money from the beginning), that Doc A may get hit my a city bus after 5 years, or quite simply that Doc A may just be a ***tty doc for 40 years while Doc B is an amazing one for 10; who do you want for your appendicitis at 3 Am?

Nothing has been "debunked" and this is a terrible post and you should feel bad for making it.

 

[username456789]

This argument has been debunked countless times by any number of valid arguments, the most staggering of which in my mind is that half the docs surveyed in any given year say they wouldn't choose medicine again.

Just to reiterate, this has nothing at all to do with whether it is ethical or reasonable to put forth the resources to train a physician whose shelf life is by definition quite limited. Although most of the rest of your post was just full of "but what if......and then what if.......but then hold on wait WHAT IF.....", this statement is a complete non sequitur. Which makes it even stranger that you use it as your leading "example."

 

[Lawpy]

I just want to go on record as saying i have never heard so much dribble from such a group of entitled dinguses in my life. I have 30 years experience as an RN in critical care advance practice my wife and i have raised 4 kids one the oldest of which is a critical care physician here in the US, now it is my turn to go to medical school and at 54 my best and probably only shot is the FMG pathway. so grow up and stop assuming your the brains of the medical community, not all doctors are made right here at home in the old USA.
I was born here, raised here and fought for my country can any of you say the same and hell yes im headed to an island to attend school so one day i can pull your harvard trained ass out of the fire when it comes to patient care.

Hate to be that guy..

but it's "you're".

Which reminds me of the following:

 

[ACSurgeon]

It certainly happens, the question isn't "Can someone entering residency in their 50s+ be a solid physician/complete the training?", it's "is the shelf life that individual would have as a physician worth the financial, emotional, and physical stress worth it?". For someone who doesn't have to worry about the finances at all and who would be bored with retirement/whatever otherwise it's fine from their perspective, but for someone who may need to seriously dip into their savings/retirement or who isn't physically or mentally up to the stress it's just not worth it. I think more often that not the latter situation is true.

There's also the question of is it ethical to give a training position to someone who may only practice for 10 years instead of someone who may practice for 40+ years. Imo, that's really not that big of a deal, but the people who seem to fear a physician shortage and see a large portion of physicians retiring in the near future may find it to be a point worth addressing (especially if it's a field with less available positions to begin with).

I think the only people making the age argument (or woman--> mommy track part time argument) are mostly pre-meds who are bitter about not getting a spot. In real life, we all understand the physicians are people. Life happens to them just like it does anyone else. They have personal and professional reasons to not practice full time. Not to mention the number of academic physicians who are 50% or even 10-20% clinical and spend the rest of their time doing admin work or research that has a high probability of never making a difference in clinical medicine.

The adcoms/PDs commenting on age probably care more about practical implications of educating or training an older person. People in their 20's or 30's are less set in their ways than someone in their 50's-60's. Also, younger people probably have more stamina, able to handle the work and the hierarchy better. Those are some of the obvious reasons I can think of, I'm sure adcoms and PDs have more reasons. Worrying about the professional lifespan of the trainee is probably low on the list.

 

[DrWhozits]

I think the only people making the age argument (or woman--> mommy track part time argument) are mostly pre-meds who are bitter about not getting a spot. In real life, we all understand the physicians are people. Life happens to them just like it does anyone else. They have personal and professional reasons to not practice full time. Not to mention the number of academic physicians who are 50% or even 10-20% clinical and spend the rest of their time doing admin work or research that has a high probability of never making a difference in clinical medicine.

The adcoms/PDs commenting on age probably care more about practical implications of educating or training an older person. People in their 20's or 30's are less set in their ways than someone in their 50's-60's. Also, younger people probably have more stamina, able to handle the work and the hierarchy better. Those are some of the obvious reasons I can think of, I'm sure adcoms and PDs have more reasons. Worrying about the professional lifespan of the trainee is probably low on the list.

As some one in school now and not bitter about a spot, it is sort of annoying to have tax dollars paying for training of someone who has a guaranteed shelf life.

$50k+ a year from Medicare for two IM residents. Resident A is 26 and has a max of around 40 years of practice. Resident B is 50 and has a max of around 15 years.

And yes, stuff happens and someone may "get hit by a bus" but assuming the both retire at a normal time, Resident A cost $3750 a year, and Resident B cost $10,000 a year.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

As some one in school now and not bitter about a spot, it is sort of annoying to have tax dollars paying for training of someone who has a guaranteed shelf life.

$50k+ a year from Medicare for two IM residents. Resident A is 26 and has a max of around 40 years of practice. Resident B is 50 and has a max of around 15 years.

And yes, stuff happens and someone may "get hit by a bus" but assuming the both retire at a normal time, Resident A cost $3750 a year, and Resident B cost $10,000 a year.

So you're equally mad about part-time and academic doctors? If Resident A only works 20 hours/week you're getting less for your $3750 than you would a full time doctor.

 

[esob]

Well it clearly hasn't been debunked well enough, because an Adcom member here has said he draws the line at 50, and an attending physician said his residency program wouldn't take a 60 year old. Direct quotes since you seem to not care about reading:

My point was simply that valid arguments have been levied against this, not that the world was a perfect place, lol. People still believe in race superiority and draw lines in the sand about hiring people; that doesn't make them right. Goro often notes one of his best students was a 40+ non trad and the halls of SDN don't seem to be loitered with non trads that are unable to procure residencies. Also, I'm willing to be no adcom member would publicly admit to an age cutoff anymore than one would admit to racial profiling of candidates because they know it's an unacceptable bias.

 

[ACSurgeon]

As some one in school now and not bitter about a spot, it is sort of annoying to have tax dollars paying for training of someone who has a guaranteed shelf life.

$50k+ a year from Medicare for two IM residents. Resident A is 26 and has a max of around 40 years of practice. Resident B is 50 and has a max of around 15 years.

And yes, stuff happens and someone may "get hit by a bus" but assuming the both retire at a normal time, Resident A cost $3750 a year, and Resident B cost $10,000 a year.

I would bet most non-trads starting residency in their 40's or later don't plan to retire at 65. The younger folks starting their career at 30 may very well stop at a young age, especially if they use their money well and don't "need" to work until an older age.

I personally think it's ridiculous to start such a difficult path that late in life, but that's just for me personally.

Finally, are you really bothered about the "waste" in training an older doctor with a limited return? In this era of government waste, politicians who seem to have no purpose other than to block the governing party from accomplishing anything substantial (or trying to undo what the previous party did, etc). I'm much more upset at the hundreds of thousands of dollars that our congressmen and president earn as income, get as fringe benefits (presidents security is running us hundreds of millions of dollars), and poor decisions that costs the country jobs, economic growth, and lives (poor military adventures). Abused entilitment programs and many others come to mind as well.

So yes, havig a dozen or so medical students over the age of 45 who are "costing us tax dollars" doesn't bother me one bit.