Is it impossible to start a private practice these days?

[geronamo26]

When I become an OD, I would like to open my own practice in my home town. However, with the cost of schooling increasing and the salaries of ODs falling/not keeping up with inflation, what are most people doing now that have/had the same dream as me? I don't want to be 50 and just opening up a practice (since I will be 37 by the time I graduate, which is old).

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[Shnurek]

Go to a public optometry school. Live frugally and take out as little loans as possible. If that is not enough then try starting a partnership with another OD or even another healthcare professional such as a DDS or MD.

 

[socal2014]

When I become an OD, I would like to open my own practice in my home town. However, with the cost of schooling increasing and the salaries of ODs falling/not keeping up with inflation, what are most people doing now that have/had the same dream as me? I don't want to be 50 and just opening up a practice (since I will be 37 by the time I graduate, which is old).

Working at walmart.

 

[KHE]

Working at walmart.

Are you an optometrist or in optometry school?

 

[Shnurek]

Are you an optometrist or in optometry school?

Guessing by the 2014 I'd say that is his graduation year. Also I remember seeing him a lot in pre-optometry. Borderline troll.

 

[thecgrblue]

Are you an optometrist or in optometry school?

Won't ever directly respond to someone challenging anything written.

 

[blackhole2]

won't ever directly respond to someone challenging anything written.

+1

 

[IndianaOD]

I'll keep playing the fiddle....Go to dental school!

 

[geronamo26]

Can SOMEONE give me a straight answer without telling me to "Go to Dental school" or "Go to Medical school". Those types of replys are not helpful at all! I'm not interested in those fields of study. I would love for someone to at least attempt to put some real effort in answering my question.

 

[socal2014]

Can SOMEONE give me a straight answer without telling me to "Go to Dental school" or "Go to Medical school". Those types of replys are not helpful at all! I'm not interested in those fields of study. I would love for someone to at least attempt to put some real effort in answering my question.

You can go ahead and start a practice, but don't be shocked if Walmart opens up a super-center and advertises $29.99 for a pair of glasses + a free eye exam. Mainly, corporate entities like costco/walmart will steal away your potential patients, leaving you with a very slow practice.

How will you pay for staff, rent, office over-head, and equipment, when you see only a limited number of patients?

I would imagine you would be in your late 40's before you actually start making money in Optometry....assuming minimal corporate competition. Before enrolling into an Optometry school, you should realize that there are more schools opening (3), which would again, make it hard for you to start your own practice, due to competition.

Optometry isn't bad, but relative to dentistry and medicine, it isn't that lucrative and faces far more professional problems than any other health profession.

What career are you switching from? Financially, Optometry may not even be worth a switch due to the many problems it is currently facing. I would definitely recommend Dentistry...you would have NO corporate competition and your salary will not be dependent on goods sold, such as contacts and glasses, as is the case with successful Optometry practices.

If you have any specific questions about Optometry, I would be more than happy to answer them here.

 

[Shnurek]

.

 

[nc2tarheels]

+1

+2. This question has been directed to socal A LOT and he always ignores it.

 

[thecgrblue]

You can go ahead and start a practice, but don't be shocked if Walmart opens up a super-center and advertises $29.99 for a pair of glasses + a free eye exam. Mainly, corporate entities like costco/walmart will steal away your potential patients, leaving you with a very slow practice.

How will you pay for staff, rent, office over-head, and equipment, when you see only a limited number of patients?

I would imagine you would be in your late 40's before you actually start making money in Optometry....assuming minimal corporate competition. Before enrolling into an Optometry school, you should realize that there are more schools opening (3), which would again, make it hard for you to start your own practice, due to competition.

Optometry isn't bad, but relative to dentistry and medicine, it isn't that lucrative and faces far more professional problems than any other health profession.

What career are you switching from? Financially, Optometry may not even be worth a switch due to the many problems it is currently facing. I would definitely recommend Dentistry...you would have NO corporate competition and your salary will not be dependent on goods sold, such as contacts and glasses, as is the case with successful Optometry practices.

If you have any specific questions about Optometry, I would be more than happy to answer them here.

Because you've spent time in all of them? Please make me a list and give me the problems with each and show that optometry has more.

 

[thecgrblue]

I'll keep playing the fiddle....Go to dental school!

If I didn't have to work with mouths I'd totally do it. I was initially interested in dentistry. Shadowed a dentist for a few weeks, couldn't stand it. Tried again, still couldn't stand it. Tried a 3rd time...then gave up. As much as I'd like the lifestyle...I COULD NOT get into the work. A burst abscess and oozing puss did it for me. It smelled like rancid cat food mixed with feta cheese sitting in the Arizona sun for 4 days.

 

[argentrans37]

When I become an OD, I would like to open my own practice in my home town. However, with the cost of schooling increasing and the salaries of ODs falling/not keeping up with inflation, what are most people doing now that have/had the same dream as me? I don't want to be 50 and just opening up a practice (since I will be 37 by the time I graduate, which is old).

I am not an Optometrist or an Optometry student, but why would it not be possible? From the sounds of things, it won't be easy, but surely it is possible. The secret is spending less money than you earn (and doing this for a long period of time) and learning the skills necessary to be a successful practice owner.

Honestly, this is a terrible example but just bear with me. Say you get a job out of Optometry school that pays you enough to repay your loans and provide for yourself/family. Say you make $70,000 a year, and spend $70,000 a year (well, $70,000 minus taxes). Now say you get a job working evenings/weekends for $7 an hour post-tax (this is worst case scenario... working Saturdays as an OD for $40/hr would be thumbs up... but I'm talking about a job as a grocery bagger, shelf stocker, etc. ... just bear with me). That's $140 a week. $7,280 a year. In 20 years, you have saved up $145,600 if you are just storing it under your mattress, probably closer to $200,000-$250,000 if you put that money to work for yourself. Bam, right there, you just paid cash to open a practice. Cash that you earned making slightly more than minimum wage.

Again, this is a terrible example. But the point should be clear. In this scenario, you are a practice owner within 20 years of graduation (a looooong time), and you were able to do this making near minimum wage at a grocery store. In total, you worked 60 hour weeks for twenty straight years. Not very feasible. But imagine the same scenario except working for $40/hr as an Optometrist. You no longer have to work 60 hour weeks to make it possible. And it shouldn't take 20 years to pull it off. Even spending free time on an hobby business can/will net you $1,000/month if you are good at it. 10 years of that, and you have money to open up a practice. And this is not to mention, most Optometrists are able to save something out of their paycheck each month.

Or, pay off those student loans, build good credit, have a solid employment history, and go to a bank for a loan to buy a practice. There are a number of different ways of financing your dream.

I hate to be cheesy, and give the 'anything is possible if you work hard enough' speech. I really do. But I see no reason why you won't be able to own your own practice if that is truly what you want out of life.

 

[Commando303]

I am not an Optometrist or an Optometry student, but why would it not be possible? From the sounds of things, it won't be easy, but surely it is possible. The secret is spending less money than you earn (and doing this for a long period of time) and learning the skills necessary to be a successful practice owner.

Honestly, this is a terrible example but just bear with me. Say you get a job out of Optometry school that pays you enough to repay your loans and provide for yourself/family. Say you make $70,000 a year, and spend $70,000 a year (well, $70,000 minus taxes). Now say you get a job working evenings/weekends for $7 an hour post-tax (this is worst case scenario... working Saturdays as an OD for $40/hr would be thumbs up... but I'm talking about a job as a grocery bagger, shelf stocker, etc. ... just bear with me). That's $140 a week. $7,280 a year. In 20 years, you have saved up $145,600 if you are just storing it under your mattress, probably closer to $200,000-$250,000 if you put that money to work for yourself. Bam, right there, you just paid cash to open a practice. Cash that you earned making slightly more than minimum wage.

Again, this is a terrible example. But the point should be clear. In this scenario, you are a practice owner within 20 years of graduation (a looooong time), and you were able to do this making near minimum wage at a grocery store. In total, you worked 60 hour weeks for twenty straight years. Not very feasible. But imagine the same scenario except working for $40/hr as an Optometrist. You no longer have to work 60 hour weeks to make it possible. And it shouldn't take 20 years to pull it off. Even spending free time on an hobby business can/will net you $1,000/month if you are good at it. 10 years of that, and you have money to open up a practice. And this is not to mention, most Optometrists are able to save something out of their paycheck each month.

Or, pay off those student loans, build good credit, have a solid employment history, and go to a bank for a loan to buy a practice. There are a number of different ways of financing your dream.

I hate to be cheesy, and give the 'anything is possible if you work hard enough' speech. I really do. But I see no reason why you won't be able to own your own practice if that is truly what you want out of life.

Maybe this wasn't the point of this thread, but I feel a legitimate question is not whether one "can" make optometry work as a private endeavor, but whether it's still a desirable option, considering the obstacles. Your example (not the "minimum-wage" one, but the second one, where you you're an employed O.D.) doesn't strike me as very far off the mark, and it involves doing something you didn't really want to do, for ten years, before you can begin to aim at what you were after.

So, again, I don't feel it's an absurd question, is it worth it? (I'm uncertain of my own answer.)

 

[ohiostateboy]

You should hope to purchase a private practice. Almost impossible to start from scratch, with the erosion of our profession.

 

[geronamo26]

Why does everyone think the profession is going down hill? I don't get it! Sounds like some people want to paint a bad picture to keep others from entering the market.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Well, it looks like I am going to have to do this again….I have posted previously on my experiences out of school, so read that if you’d like a full run down. Anyway, to the original poster, here is the reality.

Fact 1: There is not a single medical field or specialty that over the last ten years, has not seen its wages decline. This is rarely but this way, but a great number of doctors are defacto government employees, relying on Medicare/Medicaid, government protected health care networks, or working in a public hospital. I don’t know if anyone has heard, but almost every state in the country is and has been getting pretty drastic to cut funding. In many cases, doctors are a part of that.

Fact 2: There are very few fields in which the wages of not declined as well. Most of the traditional “hot jobs” like computer science, engineering, and law have been getting pounded by larger graduating classes and international competition for 2 decades now.

Fact 3: The above situation has, across every single state, obliterated demand for discretionary spending of all kinds. The numbers there are very clear. Read almost anything in the Wall Street Journal written since 2008 and you will see the hit demand has taken.

Fact 4: Add up all of the above, do a little searching in other professions (go listen to a bunch of law students or computer engineers talk about their professions. You will go take a toaster bath even if you aren’t in them) and you will see that the idea of “income automaticity” does not exist in almost any field anymore. There are very few degrees one can get, whereupon graduation you can simply sign on the dotted line and make huge bucks….and these degrees are getting longer and more expensive to attain.

Fact 5: Ophthalmology remains one of the top selection specialties (some of the best students) yet their wages have been stagnant for 3 decades. The money makers of lasik and IOL are becoming much less frequent and are exposed to massive competition. I worked for 3 ophthalmologists that told me NOT to enter their field, and that they would do it differently if they could.

Fact 6: Now for the question at hand….optometry (along w dentistry, law, etc) are full of a lot of people that think that their competency alone should make them a lot of money. Sorry Jack, not in 2011 it won’t. I make a very good living in this profession, and that success operates on the fact that most of my competition does not know market demand from accommodative demand. They simply mimic the corporate optometry model (very low prices, huge emphasis on seeing tons of patients, less so on recall) on a smaller scale. In other words, they try to fight Goliath at his game….and this is a losing strategy, as any decent business marketer would tell you. You will have to be part bartender (instantly likable), part doctor, part Donald Trump (shrewd with the dollars) to make it in this….and here is the hard part: so is almost everyone else. The game has changed in the US as far as demand and its automatic money that it helped support for 30 years. It is a little harder to sling your money around when state budgets have lost 30% of revenue, and your patients cannot simply throw your $700 Sarah Palin drill mounts onto their Visa anymore. A few fields have begun to wake up to this new reality, and we simply are not one of them yet.

Fact 7: You can make it in optometry and have a great life. I bought a dying practice from an older doctor years ago, and have turned it into 4 practices. I am off today, a Monday, and am hoping to go fishing. When I come back to work tomorrow, I will be booked out for the next 2 weeks….but all of that came with a lot of work, and even more strategizing into how to find my niche.

Fact 8: Very few people get on the internet to tell people how awesome something is. That is just the reality, and don’t misconstrue it as the truth. Talk to people in every field you are thinking about and form your own opinion. This business is full of people that thought they were signing up for 200k a year, regardless of their total lack of personal amiability, business acumen, or flexibility in their plan. (If I see another person complain about “I couldn’t find a full time OD job in my hometown” I am going to scream. The absurdity of some people’s expectations never ceases to amaze me.)

Fact 9: Find me your so-called dream field that doesn’t require 500k in loans, going to school until you are 35, or swindling people out of their money. Law you say? They have been decimated by uncontrolled school building and now graduate an estimated 65% OVER market demand for lawyers (source is Forbes of Jan 2011) There are lawyers that make 40k a year working 90 hours doing basically paralegal work…Dentistry? The demand collapse has sent their wages down in 42 of 50 states. In New York there has been a migration out of the area due to the taxation and requisite loss of patients. (link on ADA). Engineering? 99’er club Jack…..Medicine? Congratulations, you make 300k (the same as you did in 1980, but who’s counting) after going through training until you are 34 and racking up 600k in debts. Now you work 80 hours a week for the hospital that fellowed you. What a deal!

I hope all of this helps. I know I wrote a lot, but this is a complex issue that always gets simplified and spun with sophomoric negativity. What is happening to optometry is happening to most all highly trained professions, and we’d serve ourselves better by recognizing that. I hope you choose this great field, and that one day you will be my colleague…that is far far away from me!

 

[KHE]

Fact 8: Very few people get on the internet to tell people how awesome something is. That is just the reality, and don’t misconstrue it as the truth. Talk to people in every field you are thinking about and form your own opinion. This business is full of people that thought they were signing up for 200k a year, regardless of their total lack of personal amiability, business acumen, or flexibility in their plan. (If I see another person complain about “I couldn’t find a full time OD job in my hometown” I am going to scream. The absurdity of some people’s expectations never ceases to amaze me.)
!

I think most of what you've said is true but I want to focus on that issue right there.

The problem isn't the expectations of people, but it's where those expectations come from.

Adults, teachers, professors, colleges, the optometry schools, US News and World Report, the AOA etc. etc. all pretty much say the same thing to someone who's 21, 22 years old and thinking of optometry....

"Optometrist? That's an eye doctor! Oh, man! Great choice! You'll make great money and the nice thing is, you can work ANYWHERE. And hey....people always need glasses or they need to have their eyes checked. Great secure career!"

So these students and young graduates come up with these expectations not on their own, but because their GIVEN TO THEM by their mentors and the people they look up to.

As such, I don't BLAME THEM for having the expectations. They're told from a young age "study hard, stay in school, go to college and graduate and you'll get a good job."

They feel they've lived up to their "end of the bargain" so to speak so I think it's really more incumbent on the mentors of young people to help clue them in a bit about the realities of life.

 

[hopefuloptom]

Wow, thank you Dilligaf for that. Every time I come on this board I only hear negative things about the future of Optometry. And for a person who is very interested in the career and have been for a long time, it's very discouraging. I appreciate the time that you put into writing that post. It shows that its the Optometrist that makes a difference in their future NOT the field itself.

 

[Bioflare]

I think most of what you've said is true but I want to focus on that issue right there.

The problem isn't the expectations of people, but it's where those expectations come from.

Adults, teachers, professors, colleges, the optometry schools, US News and World Report, the AOA etc. etc. all pretty much say the same thing to someone who's 21, 22 years old and thinking of optometry....

"Optometrist? That's an eye doctor! Oh, man! Great choice! You'll make great money and the nice thing is, you can work ANYWHERE. And hey....people always need glasses or they need to have their eyes checked. Great secure career!"

So these students and young graduates come up with these expectations not on their own, but because their GIVEN TO THEM by their mentors and the people they look up to.

As such, I don't BLAME THEM for having the expectations. They're told from a young age "study hard, stay in school, go to college and graduate and you'll get a good job."

They feel they've lived up to their "end of the bargain" so to speak so I think it's really more incumbent on the mentors of young people to help clue them in a bit about the realities of life.

QFT

But going through years of schooling, people should at least become a little skeptical. I could have gone straight into engineering out of highschool, I didn't and chose to pursue Health Sciences, that pursuit began to waiver during my undergraduate and I explored the technology fields. I landed a 16 month internship at IBM, and that taught me many things about what I wanted to do. It also taught me that everyone is capable of earning well, but there will always be sacrifices...

If I stayed with IBM in the time it takes to do schooling for Optometry. I would be earning 80-90k advancing at a snail pace in the corporate ladder. I'd also have the savings of those 4 years of work versus the potential debt from Optometry school tuition. After the 4 years I would be starting at the same earning level. I knew this, but I also knew that I want to be out there having interactions with people and helping them; not staring at a computer screen from 9-5.

Doesn't seem fair, you can score a decent job with a 2.7 gpa (some of my compsci friends average) and come out with a stable job and with more savings than someone who has to work harder for that higher gpa and schooling. But in the end its all about what YOU want to do. I know I want to become an Optometrist as its a wonderful profession, where you make a difference (how much depends on you). It shouldn't matter if you break 6 figures (you will eventually), just know that its what you want to do.

 

[socal2014]

Why does everyone think the profession is going down hill? I don't get it! Sounds like some people want to paint a bad picture to keep others from entering the market.

Nobody is painting a picture, rather the problems Optometry is facing are indeed facts.

You have managed care reimbursing less and less, i.e. insurances such as VSP.

You have the current oversupply of O.D.'s, so upon graduation, it will be tough to find a suitable job.

More new schools are opening, which will make it tough for you to secure a position, or operate a successful practice of your own.

Corporate entities like walmart have the only good paying jobs available, but its no place for a doc to work.

Online companies will cause your patients to ask for just the RX so they can get their $300 glasses for $29.99.

Finally, you have Board Certification, popular in medicine, used as a scheme, in Optometry, to generate profits for a few select individuals.

These issues can be solved, but there is also the AOA, responsible for regulating optometry in USA, whom have special interests, which would prevent these issues from being fixed.

Other health professions do not have all of these problems...you're 37; no need for you to get involved in such a poorly regulated profession, unless you can't see yourself doing anything else.

Gosh, after reading my post there seems to problems pretty much everywhere!

 

[SIUE optkid]

Why does everyone think the profession is going down hill? I don't get it! Sounds like some people want to paint a bad picture to keep others from entering the market.

1. people had unrealistic expectation
2. they got into the career because of the money and not because they liked the work
3. most satisfied people dont feel the need to come online and talk about how satisfied they are.
4. because there are problems, nothings perfect
5. socal is not an optometrist or opometry student yet seems to like posting here.
6. if people actually think there eliminateing competition by badmouthing it, theyre wrong, theyre just discourageing good candidates and trading them for worse ones.
7. overall there just frustrated and need a place to vent

Dilligaf, love reading everything you write.

Argentrans, good thinking! a good attitude and hard work will get you far.

 

[nc2tarheels]

1. people had unrealistic expectation
2. they got into the career because of the money and not because they liked the work
3. most satisfied people dont feel the need to come online and talk about how satisfied they are.
4. because there are problems, nothings perfect
5. socal is not an optometrist or opometry student yet seems to like posting here.
6. if people actually think there eliminateing competition by badmouthing it, theyre wrong, theyre just discourageing good candidates and trading them for worse ones.
7. overall there just frustrated and need a place to vent

Dilligaf, love reading everything you write.

Argentrans, good thinking! a good attitude and hard work will get you far.

A lot of people get lost in his bs and think he's an OD. People, he's not so quit taking his word as if he knows something about the field.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Nobody is painting a picture, rather the problems Optometry is facing are indeed facts.

**** There is indeed a huge picture being painted, and it is done throughout almost every level of education. People have no idea how long docs must really go to school, how they actually get paid, or how many fall on their faces in the attempt. If it makes anyone feel better, law is much worse about this. (I.E. "I get to be Mr Law & Order guy in my nice suit and gruff face.....when in reality you are likely to spend much of your time (in the 1st ten years or so) putting someone's else litigation ducks in a row for 60k and 80 hours a week.)

You have managed care reimbursing less and less, i.e. insurances such as VSP.

**** Actually you don't. If there is ONE thing that has not gone to the hatchet w the recent government healthcare cuts, it is optometry. My reimbursement for many things (OCT, VF, basic no dilation refraction) are actually HIGHER than most people (not me) are able to charge in open market. People ARE making less money in eye care than they used to, but that is due to a complete obliteration of discretionary market demand, not the amount I receive upon actually seeing a pt.

You have the current oversupply of O.D.'s, so upon graduation, it will be tough to find a suitable job.

**** There is indeed a massive oversupply of almost everything (lawyers, software guys, heart surgeons) in pretty much every major metro area in the US. The amount of money that people are free to spend is 12% less than it was ten years ago (dept of labor, in Forbes of Nov 2010), yet the amount going out for basics (insurances of all kinds, food, gas) has gone up by 38% with almost no inflation. Add that all up, and you get less demand for EVERYTHING, including our service.

More new schools are opening, which will make it tough for you to secure a position, or operate a successful practice of your own.

**** I REALLY want people to stop bleating on about "Holy Toledo! In 4 years there will be 200 more people graduating out of a country of 330 million people! I will be turning tricks behind the dumpster at Payless!" If you honestly, seriously, believe that is a factor in your job outlook, you really need to take some economics classes. Understand that the REAL killers to your job are 1) At what age are most OD's able to retire? Seeing as the stock market took a dive and is now recovering, most 401k's are starting to go black again. This alone will drive thousands into retirement, and make your 200 rookies a drop in the ocean. 2) DEMAND for God's sake. Apparently, when unemployment is 10%, this drives more people into cost cutting at every opportunity. (read, go to Wal-mart for glasses). A 2% drop in unemployment (a probability by the end of year) will cause an 18% rise in system-wide discretionary spending (your $900 drill mount Trivex's that do your taxes for you and actually destroy the sun out of the sky). 3) Laws....if the states w the majority of population, NY, FL, and CA were to get their laws changed, this would allow more bargaining power at the state level for reimbursements. It would allow the same number of OD's to expand into wider scopes of practice, again making your 200 grads less than irrelevant.

Corporate entities like walmart have the only good paying jobs available, but its no place for a doc to work.


Online companies will cause your patients to ask for just the RX so they can get their $300 glasses for $29.99.

**** Let me put it this way: if you actually thought you were getting one of those patients to begin with, you don't understand this business. This is just like anything else, just like cars for example: there are your Pinto's and there are your Bentleys. If you try to go into the Pinto market, you are going to get your lunch handed to you. A private OD cannot compete with the titans in that market, and I see tons fail spectacularly in trying. A good businessman knows where his gap is, and I regularly charge quadruple what Walmart does for a basic exam, yet their office in my town is empty most of the time. (I know the guy that works for them, and I suggest he be put on suicide watch. He once saw 21 patients in a week.) If a person of low-income wants to see an eye doc, they can go there or to my office and it costs them the same....and I make it clear as to why we are vastly superior in care to them. When this person gets out of the financial sinkhole they are in at that moment (a lot of people in most town made big bucks prior to the recession, and many are getting jobs back) I will be there for them without the gov in between. I call it the "Lazarus program" and it has been a big boost to my business since we have started to recover. I would go into this more, but I have written about it extensively in the past. Look it up if you have the curiosity.

Finally, you have Board Certification, popular in medicine, used as a scheme, in Optometry, to generate profits for a few select individuals.

**** With all due respect, that does not make a lick of sense.

These issues can be solved, but there is also the AOA, responsible for regulating optometry in USA, whom have special interests, which would prevent these issues from being fixed.

**** Agreed there....the AOA is completely worthless, but they are mainly so because they get very little financial support compared the Goliaths they are up against, the AMA, HHS committees, etc.

Other health professions do not have all of these problems...you're 37; no need for you to get involved in such a poorly regulated profession, unless you can't see yourself doing anything else.

**** AHAHAHA!!! if you honestly believe that, you have clearly not spent much time talking to any other kind of doctor. I play golf with a dentist (he is married to my cousin) and an ER plastic surgeon....I am the content one in that group. I would go on to explain how asinine the sentence that "other health professions do not have all of these problems" is, but I imagine it would be pointless. Here is a hint: I challenge anyone to name a problem in optometry that DOESN'T exist in most every medical field, or in the private economy. (docs are mostly gov employees. People hate hearing that but it is true.)

Gosh, after reading my post there seems to problems pretty much everywhere!

**** And it was all so wonderfully and maturely dissected for everyone. Nice work.

Sorry to those for whom my point-by-point breakdown seems harsh, but the ideas SoCal wrote can be found in a lot of places....which is a good indication that they are very wrong. I am arguing the ideas, not the person, other than the fact that it was all very vague and alarmist, two things we do well here. I hope I cleared a few things up. Okay, back to work

 

[Shnurek]

SoCal are you even in SCCO? or any optometry school? I did not start optometry school but I work as an ophthalmic tech for an excellent retina surgeon so I get to see interesting pathology everyday. In either case if you are not in the field you shouldn't talk like you are. Thanks

 

[IndianaOD]

I need to go find it but there was an article about how OD income was tanking much faster than other medical professionals.

I'll tell you what I know personally and that is that a lot of ODs are struggling. Around here they are anyways. The few dentists I know personally are making a killing.

Dilligaf, what state are you in?

I'm a pessimist on these boards because I think students REALLY need to do their homework before starting optometry school. The AOA, schools, and media are feeding you an unrealistic line. The increasing oversupply is a huge issue. The graduation rates will be increasing 20% +.

I have a friend that works for a cell phone company in low middle management. The annual bonus he just got was almost as I made all of last year. Plus he doesn't have a patient going off on him for not releasing his PDs.

I disagree that other professions are having it as bad as optometry. Most MDs can be a decent doctor and easily fill the books. I think you have to be a superstar OD to fill the books. It should not be that difficult.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Hello Indiana....I will try the best I can to explain my situation, and to elaborate on my opinions.

I own outright 2 practices, and co-own two more, all in upstate NY, Vermont, and New Hampshire (where I work and live). I did however work for a few years at a Costco in Florida, where I attended school years ago. Here is what I would add to your points.

1) I would completely agree that a lot of OD's are not making the kind of money they expected to make. By this I mean that there are far too many making in the 80k area rather than 100k plus. No argument there at all.

2) I personally believe that the reason that many are doing poorly is because they misdiagnose what this profession really is....in my opinion, and also of those in other fields I am close to, it is VERY different from others in health care. Many dentists really can just open an office, be somewhat cordial, and make a lot of money if they have a good location. Optometry is not like that. We have much more expectations as far as being accessible and personable, as well as more need for good recall. I guess that I am saying that for an OD to make the kind of money a dentist makes (very hard to do, dentistry is soul-crushing but lucrative), you must be a much more personable doctor, and especially a more savvy businessperson. Your "clinical skills" are about 4th down on the list of importance, whereas for many MD's and dentists, it is more like number 2.

3) I say that no other profession has been spared because it is true. The average ophthal has seen stagnant wages for 3 decades, and when I am around doctors in other fields, there is a feeling of being next on the chopping block. The "speed" of this is rather irrelevant. The fact remains that many doctors are defacto gov employees, and governments at all levels are broke. I have not talked to a single doctor in the past 2 years that doesn't sound terrified.

4) An overarching mantra for me is that many OD's try to beat corporate at their own game, use very little imagination as far as recall and compliance go, and are the medical equivalent of those Mexican restaurants that used to be on every corner where you picked your meal by 2-digit number....my message to people who are thinking about this field is that yes, 70% of the people you go to school with may end up somewhat disappointed...but it is still very possible to do very well given the right attitude and business acumen.

5) I studied economics as an undergrad (my previous posts kind of evidence to this), and I firmly believe that the economic game has changed in the US. The numbers do not lie; and they point to the fact that every area of discretionary spending has fallen off a cliff. Of course I know dentists or MD's that are still doing well, but I know of 3 others that have either lost their positions or seen their income drop. (The town dentist in my area is a good friend, and his revenues are down 45% since 2 years ago) Optometry is no different, yet we seem to attribute what are in many cases MASSIVE economic shortfalls on our own little set of agendas, be that school numbers, corporate, etc. There is plenty of pie to feed us all, but not right now. Right now you really DO have to be a superstar to make it big in optometry....but that is no better than the boat many others are in.

6) As for the "bonus income" idea....there are hedge fund managers that make more money in the time they use the facilities than I make in a year. I know of old friends that made 300k last year doing God knows what. The difference is that they can be replaced. Their companies can downsize, move overseas, or find a young buck to take half the pay...and then they will be in that 99'er club like millions of others. I will get up tomorrow and spend 9 hours helping people. I will answer to know one while I do it, and there is no chance that I will ever be in dire straights. That is not the same as selling someone a product or filling out someone else's P&L sheet in some box high rise somewhere, and the incomes are never fair to compare to. We do have a LOT of problems in this business, but they are by no means insurmountable, and they are nothing that 4% unemployment won't fix. This will blow over, and all of us will still be doing what we do. Thanks. Happy St Pats day.

 

[socal2014]

Nobody is painting a picture, rather the problems Optometry is facing are indeed facts.

**** There is indeed a huge picture being painted, and it is done throughout almost every level of education. People have no idea how long docs must really go to school, how they actually get paid, or how many fall on their faces in the attempt. If it makes anyone feel better, law is much worse about this. (I.E. "I get to be Mr Law & Order guy in my nice suit and gruff face.....when in reality you are likely to spend much of your time (in the 1st ten years or so) putting someone's else litigation ducks in a row for 60k and 80 hours a week.)

Funny how you talk about lawyers. Let me play the game for OD's. "I get to be Dr. Gregory House and wear a nice suit with premium glasses.....but in reality, I spend most of my time (the 1st ten years or so) working at walmart, next to the toiletry section." I know your point was not to compare law and optometry, but it seems as if you meant to say that OD's had it good compared to Lawyers, but thats not the case. Most likely, the lifestyles and incomes of the top 10% of lawyers excessively surpasses that of OD's.

[/QUOTE]

You have managed care reimbursing less and less, i.e. insurances such as VSP.

**** Actually you don't. If there is ONE thing that has not gone to the hatchet w the recent government healthcare cuts, it is optometry. My reimbursement for many things (OCT, VF, basic no dilation refraction) are actually HIGHER than most people (not me) are able to charge in open market. People ARE making less money in eye care than they used to, but that is due to a complete obliteration of discretionary market demand, not the amount I receive upon actually seeing a pt.

Actually you do. I don't care to post the relevant data, however, isn't it logical for managed care to accumulate more profits for themselves? Well, 'course it is! Insurance companies like VSP would rather make money, than give it to doctors, or patients. I am not doubting your numbers, but generally, insurance reimbursements tend to decline.
[/QUOTE]

You have the current oversupply of O.D.'s, so upon graduation, it will be tough to find a suitable job.

**** There is indeed a massive oversupply of almost everything (lawyers, software guys, heart surgeons) in pretty much every major metro area in the US. The amount of money that people are free to spend is 12% less than it was ten years ago (dept of labor, in Forbes of Nov 2010), yet the amount going out for basics (insurances of all kinds, food, gas) has gone up by 38% with almost no inflation. Add that all up, and you get less demand for EVERYTHING, including our service.

And? Are you really going to use the excuse just because other professions are in oversupply, that it would be okay for Optometry to continue in that direction? In fact, it has been posted several times that there was once an oversupply of dentists, and as a result, several schools were shut down. Why is that not the case with Optometry? Why are more schools opening, in light of the over-saturation?

More new schools are opening, which will make it tough for you to secure a position, or operate a successful practice of your own.

**** I REALLY want people to stop bleating on about "Holy Toledo! In 4 years there will be 200 more people graduating out of a country of 330 million people! I will be turning tricks behind the dumpster at Payless!" If you honestly, seriously, believe that is a factor in your job outlook, you really need to take some economics classes. Understand that the REAL killers to your job are 1) At what age are most OD's able to retire? Seeing as the stock market took a dive and is now recovering, most 401k's are starting to go black again. This alone will drive thousands into retirement, and make your 200 rookies a drop in the ocean. 2) DEMAND for God's sake. Apparently, when unemployment is 10%, this drives more people into cost cutting at every opportunity. (read, go to Wal-mart for glasses). A 2% drop in unemployment (a probability by the end of year) will cause an 18% rise in system-wide discretionary spending (your $900 drill mount Trivex's that do your taxes for you and actually destroy the sun out of the sky). 3) Laws....if the states w the majority of population, NY, FL, and CA were to get their laws changed, this would allow more bargaining power at the state level for reimbursements. It would allow the same number of OD's to expand into wider scopes of practice, again making your 200 grads less than irrelevant.

So, here you basically say that we have an oversupply of O.D.'s yet, its manageable, due to other things like ods retiring and demand? Did you know that if you have more OD's (supply), than the demand for them will decrease? It's so simple, isn't it! You can use nonsense percentages and the idea of changing laws, when in fact MD's have the upper hand, to benefit OD's, but the reality of the matter is that OD's will be in oversupply unless half of the schools are shut down.

Corporate entities like walmart have the only good paying jobs available, but its no place for a doc to work.


Online companies will cause your patients to ask for just the RX so they can get their $300 glasses for $29.99.

**** Let me put it this way: if you actually thought you were getting one of those patients to begin with, you don't understand this business. This is just like anything else, just like cars for example: there are your Pinto's and there are your Bentleys. If you try to go into the Pinto market, you are going to get your lunch handed to you. A private OD cannot compete with the titans in that market, and I see tons fail spectacularly in trying. A good businessman knows where his gap is, and I regularly charge quadruple what Walmart does for a basic exam, yet their office in my town is empty most of the time. (I know the guy that works for them, and I suggest he be put on suicide watch. He once saw 21 patients in a week.) If a person of low-income wants to see an eye doc, they can go there or to my office and it costs them the same....and I make it clear as to why we are vastly superior in care to them. When this person gets out of the financial sinkhole they are in at that moment (a lot of people in most town made big bucks prior to the recession, and many are getting jobs back) I will be there for them without the gov in between. I call it the "Lazarus program" and it has been a big boost to my business since we have started to recover. I would go into this more, but I have written about it extensively in the past. Look it up if you have the curiosity.

My point is, you would rarely get the opportunity to earn six figures in a private practice, as opposed to a corporate practice. Sure, you can earn much more in a pp, by providing better service etc., but these opportunity are rare, and will most likely require years of sacrifice upon graduation.

Finally, you have Board Certification, popular in medicine, used as a scheme, in Optometry, to generate profits for a few select individuals.

**** With all due respect, that does not make a lick of sense.

MD's use BC as a tool to make sure their practitioners are competent, throughout their careers. It also lets the public know that the MD knows what he is doing. OD's don't even go through a mandatory residency, so what exactly is there to certify? OD's simply don't deal with life/death scenarios, as do MD's. Through B.C. comes cost; its not free. And you can guess who gets to keep these profits! What is $700/year for B.C. multiplied by 20,000 weak Optometrists?

These issues can be solved, but there is also the AOA, responsible for regulating optometry in USA, whom have special interests, which would prevent these issues from being fixed.

**** Agreed there....the AOA is completely worthless, but they are mainly so because they get very little financial support compared the Goliaths they are up against, the AMA, HHS committees, etc.

Its really not about money. MD's receive superior training compared to OD's. Once OD's go through a residency, though there is no need, then we can bring up the financial support. It costs more to take care of the entire body, than it does to take care of the eye (basically).

Anyhow, why not shut down a couple of optometry schools? Or, why open more optometry schools?

Other health professions do not have all of these problems...you're 37; no need for you to get involved in such a poorly regulated profession, unless you can't see yourself doing anything else.

**** AHAHAHA!!! if you honestly believe that, you have clearly not spent much time talking to any other kind of doctor. I play golf with a dentist (he is married to my cousin) and an ER plastic surgeon....I am the content one in that group. I would go on to explain how asinine the sentence that "other health professions do not have all of these problems" is, but I imagine it would be pointless. Here is a hint: I challenge anyone to name a problem in optometry that DOESN'T exist in most every medical field, or in the private economy. (docs are mostly gov employees. People hate hearing that but it is true.)

Sure, off the top of my head, negative corporate influence on the income and perception of Optometrists.

Gosh, after reading my post there seems to problems pretty much everywhere!

**** And it was all so wonderfully and maturely dissected for everyone. Nice work.

Sorry to those for whom my point-by-point breakdown seems harsh, but the ideas SoCal wrote can be found in a lot of places....which is a good indication that they are very wrong. I am arguing the ideas, not the person, other than the fact that it was all very vague and alarmist, two things we do well here. I hope I cleared a few things up. Okay, back to work

Clearly, you are painting a picture here.

You have not stated any legitimate solutions to the problems Optometry faces, rather, you have tried to bog down these issues with schoolgirl-like statements. I didn't ask for solutions, but the fact that there are no legitimate solutions available to OD's, just goes to show you how real these issues really are. I do applaud the effort, but the facts remain. You may be in a different situation than these new grads, but Optometry was very different 20 years ago.

 

[thecgrblue]

Has any school even accepted you yet?

 

[DILLIGAF]

I refuse to go any further into a discussion with someone that clearly has no idea what they are talking about, as any digging into any of those statements will evidence. My "schoolgirl" like statements, such as market demand factors, are clearly unimportant and I am thus completely wrong I am sure. I would like to go into a point by point of how sophomoric and ignorant the statements were, but it would be like talking to the dining room table. It's late, you obviously are not in the field, and I am bored of this. Anyone with ten minutes and a functioning cerebellum could find how clueless you are, and I have found it is best to let fools speak for themselves.

"The smartest decision I ever made was to stop caring of the opinions of ignorant people." -- F.S. Fitzgerald

 

[SIUE optkid]

-most people are not in the top 10% the stats say that only 10 % are in fact. 90% are in the lower 90%.

-you do not know any statistics because all you do is regurgitate negativity that you read here.

-VSP is a not for profit organization.... they would rather save the consumer money than give it to doctors, your ill informed.

-it is not ok for them to keep expanding, but with unemployment as high as it is, many people would just love a job. they would gladly take a horrible OD salary of $40,000

-It is not his fault if he understands economics and you do not. Its very complicated and most people dont know how it works. At least you have supply and demand down though.

-You get out of life what you put into it. Maybe if you put more effort in you would do better than get C's on repeated classes.

-An example of where certification will be functional is for kentucky OD's who gain surgical rights.

-Opthalmologist were crying foul when the AOA paid 400,000 to lawmakers in kentucky to get the new laws. conclusion: it is about money.

-A successfull optometrist tells you how he became successful and you call it school girl like. HA Respect your elders, learn from their mistakes, listen to their wisdom

 

[socal2014]

I refuse to go any further into a discussion with someone that clearly has no idea what they are talking about, as any digging into any of those statements will evidence. My "schoolgirl" like statements, such as market demand factors, are clearly unimportant and I am thus completely wrong I am sure. I would like to go into a point by point of how sophomoric and ignorant the statements were, but it would be like talking to the dining room table. It's late, you obviously are not in the field, and I am bored of this. Anyone with ten minutes and a functioning cerebellum could find how clueless you are, and I have found it is best to let fools speak for themselves.

"The smartest decision I ever made was to stop caring of the opinions of ignorant people." -- F.S. Fitzgerald

You can go ahead and make these speculations, I do not care; but at the end of the day, everything I have said is true!

You can also make excuses such as "this is too boring" "its late!" but this just goes to show you how helpless you are, among other OD's, in fighting the problems of Optometry.

It's funny how people think that because 1 o.d. found the right situation at the right time, they would be able to do the same, when the right situation doesn't exist anymore!

 

[DILLIGAF]

-- The median salary of a lawyer 9 months after graduating in 2008 was 68k. In this same year, the ave OD salary was 77k. The oversupply of law schools is a national concern that congress has addressed.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm

--The top 10% of any field is a terrible indicator of that fields success. For example, a drama major might make 25k as an average, but the "top 10%" would include Brad Pitt's salary, which is an inaccurate indicator.

-- Your claim that "VSP would rather take money than give it to doctors" is proof that you are an ignorant neophyte that knows nothing of this profession that a pet parrot can't tell me. Anyone that ACTUALLY knows this business, even on a rudimentary level, knows that VSP is non-profit and works ONLY with private practices. This is not news to any real doctor.

-- The fact that you took my statement to mean that I am okay with oversupply, all from my analysis of economic realities regarding the "supply" of anything as demand has imploded---all of that is more proof that I am talking to a very ignorant person. These things I spoke of are not insider info. It is something any real businessperson would likely be able to recite off the top of their heads.

-- more schools are going up because there are existing osteopathic schools that would like more money coming in....end of story. To say that 200 more people with no experience coming into the supply will trump HUGE economic factors (those adult words you clearly don't understand) is idiotic. That is not my opinion. That is called a textbook.

-- again, more proof that I am talking to a kid that is a sore loser; anyone ACTUALLY in this business knows that private practice makes much more money than corporate, where there is usually a ceiling.

So, seeing as it is clear to anyone that you do not have any understanding of business/economics, and you are obviously not a doctor, then why exactly is your opinion on these matters relevant to anyone? Why should I, someone with 15 years experience, owning 4 practices, and daily in contact with dozens of actual doctors in the field, listen to a sour grapes C student that clearly has no clue. This was my "bored" comment.You do not tell me anything with any proof behind it, are clearly clueless about very basic things of the field, and it is all a big parroting of the same *****ic garbage that the sore losers of the forum pile on like losers at the end of a race....hence, it has no real point. I will not answer anything further, as you do a fine job of revealing your juvenile opinions and lack of a good education without my help. Now, go ahead and tell me that I am wrong, but you will only be speaking to yourself, a mediocrity is only capable of this. Obviously no one takes you remotely seriously anyway, meanwhile I daily get messages asking for the advice of someone that might have something worthwhile to say here. Thanks.

 

[thecgrblue]

You can go ahead and make these speculations, I do not care; but at the end of the day, everything I have said is true!

You can also make excuses such as "this is too boring" "its late!" but this just goes to show you how helpless you are, among other OD's, in fighting the problems of Optometry.

It's funny how people think that because 1 o.d. found the right situation at the right time, they would be able to do the same, when the right situation doesn't exist anymore!

You really don't get it, do you?

 

[socal2014]

-- The median salary of a lawyer 9 months after graduating in 2008 was 68k. In this same year, the ave OD salary was 77k. The oversupply of law schools is a national concern that congress has addressed.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm

--The top 10% of any field is a terrible indicator of that fields success. For example, a drama major might make 25k as an average, but the "top 10%" would include Brad Pitt's salary, which is an inaccurate indicator.

-- Your claim that "VSP would rather take money than give it to doctors" is proof that you are an ignorant neophyte that knows nothing of this profession that a pet parrot can't tell me. Anyone that ACTUALLY knows this business, even on a rudimentary level, knows that VSP is non-profit and works ONLY with private practices. This is not news to any real doctor.

-- The fact that you took my statement to mean that I am okay with oversupply, all from my analysis of economic realities regarding the "supply" of anything as demand has imploded---all of that is more proof that I am talking to a very ignorant person. These things I spoke of are not insider info. It is something any real businessperson would likely be able to recite off the top of their heads.

-- more schools are going up because there are existing osteopathic schools that would like more money coming in....end of story. To say that 200 more people with no experience coming into the supply will trump HUGE economic factors (those adult words you clearly don't understand) is idiotic. That is not my opinion. That is called a textbook.

-- again, more proof that I am talking to a kid that is a sore loser; anyone ACTUALLY in this business knows that private practice makes much more money than corporate, where there is usually a ceiling.

So, seeing as it is clear to anyone that you do not have any understanding of business/economics, and you are obviously not a doctor, then why exactly is your opinion on these matters relevant to anyone? Why should I, someone with 15 years experience, owning 4 practices, and daily in contact with dozens of actual doctors in the field, listen to a sour grapes C student that clearly has no clue. This was my "bored" comment.You do not tell me anything with any proof behind it, are clearly clueless about very basic things of the field, and it is all a big parroting of the same *****ic garbage that the sore losers of the forum pile on like losers at the end of a race....hence, it has no real point. I will not answer anything further, as you do a fine job of revealing your juvenile opinions and lack of a good education without my help. Now, go ahead and tell me that I am wrong, but you will only be speaking to yourself, a mediocrity is only capable of this. Obviously no one takes you remotely seriously anyway, meanwhile I daily get messages asking for the advice of someone that might have something worthwhile to say here. Thanks.

How sad.

You have been in business for 15 years, and claim to own 4 practices, yet you still refuse to accept the problems concerning Optometry. You are sugar coating any and every notable fact concerning the problems with optometry with your school-girl like inferences. Your claim about VSP is also wrong and you genuinely believe insurance companies work for the special interests of doctors! Please, get real.

For example, you think understanding economics will cure oversupply, yet you don't understand simple supply & demand. HOnestly, I am quite shocked that you actually think VSP works for you. Ignorance is indeed BLISS!

So far, all you have proved is that you are egotistical and quite a stupid person.

I originally claimed that Optometry has to following problems:

a) oversupply
b) lack of managed care reimbursements
c) corrupt regulation
d) negative corporate influence

among other things, and you replied with some random economic theory concerning oversupply...get real.

I believe you come on these boards to brag about your setup, when in fact you took advantage of an opportunity 20 years ago, but guess what, it doesn't impress me because the majority of the OD population is infected with the said problems concerning optometry.

I really would like for anyone to prove me wrong.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Yes, an inferior student with no experience in the field must have much to explain to me.Seeing as your previous posts are visible to anyone, it takes roughly 5 min to see that you spend a great deal of time on this site spouting your ignorance....I say that because you have never spent one day in the field as a doctor, yet think that you have the license to tell people how it "really is"....THAT, ladies and gents, is the definition of arrogance.Anyone that has ZERO field experience, in anything, that thinks they have more knowledge than someone out for 15 years, that is insane. Again, anyone would tell you that.

Clearly I have a huge ego, seeing as I send a majority of my time here to try to mentor people into how to avoid the overstatements of this profession. I am only on this site because I recently hired a young tech that is hoping to go to op school, and his experiences on this site were full of grossly inflated negativity. You have no credibility for accomplishing anything but not getting into school, so I highly doubt you know this business better than I do. You are an ignorant kid that thinks they know everything, which I can find in anywhere. This site only exists as an outlet for you to give display your sour grapes. No one is better off for anything that you say, and that is a reality. Please stop.

And yes, I am quite stupid. That must be it. Thank you for clearing that up. a kid with a BS and 3.1 must have much to teach me. I appreciate that insight. Wow.

 

[blackhole2]

:troll:

 

[Veritas23]

Yes, an inferior student with no experience in the field must have much to explain to me.Seeing as your previous posts are visible to anyone, it takes roughly 5 min to see that you spend a great deal of time on this site spouting your ignorance....I say that because you have never spent one day in the field as a doctor, yet think that you have the license to tell people how it "really is"....THAT, ladies and gents, is the definition of arrogance.Anyone that has ZERO field experience, in anything, that thinks they have more knowledge than someone out for 15 years, that is insane. Again, anyone would tell you that.

Clearly I have a huge ego, seeing as I send a majority of my time here to try to mentor people into how to avoid the overstatements of this profession. I am only on this site because I recently hired a young tech that is hoping to go to op school, and his experiences on this site were full of grossly inflated negativity. You have no credibility for accomplishing anything but not getting into school, so I highly doubt you know this business better than I do. You are an ignorant kid that thinks they know everything, which I can find in anywhere. This site only exists as an outlet for you to give display your sour grapes. No one is better off for anything that you say, and that is a reality. Please stop.

And yes, I am quite stupid. That must be it. Thank you for clearing that up. a kid with a BS and 3.1 must have much to teach me. I appreciate that insight. Wow.

DILLIGAF, thank you for this post. Without getting into too much detail it is easy to tell when one truly knows what they are talking about, rather than ranting about things that they truly have not experienced/only read about on a forum based off of negativity.

People usually come to online forums for things to complain or whine about something, that is a fact of human psychology. If things are fine, why would they log in here and talk about them? They'd go and spend time with their family or go drink a beer!

The fact that there are dedicated, patient-focused, business-sensible, and caring OD's out there like you and KHE - who truly know how the profession of Optometry works and how one can be successful - gives me much faith for my own career as an Optometrist as I approach my first year at Optometry School next year. Sure, there are problems and the AOA and other groups need to address them, but coming here and having a pity-party with no true knowledge about the profession (i.e. being an Optometry School graduate or in practice currently) serves no use and will not fix them. It serves no use to anyone here to waste time reading posts about it either.

Socal2014 still has not revealed his/her academic status and until he/she does so I will take said posts with a "large" grain of salt. Why try to provide "strong" points against multiple successful OD's who acknowledge some of your points without stating your credentials to make those statements in the first place? Until Socal2014 provides information about how he/she is more knowledgeable about the workings of Optometric Care, Business, and other pertinent factors then I'm going to stick with posters such as DILLIGAF, Visionary, and KHE who have posted intelligently and not just thrown things "into the wind" for the sake of posting them (and without backing!).

Anyway, I kind of ranted but thank you for your posts DILLIGAF. In whatever state Optometry is in, Socal2014, I will be entering the field in four years, upon receipt of my OD, because it is a true passion of mine and I will not be doing it for the salary. Being said, I'm sure everyone here hopes the economy will turn around and we can all have less to worry about - preferably with less for-profit-only Optometry schools opening.

 

[IndianaOD]

Quick note about VSP

I can't recall where it stands now, but VSP basically lost its non-profit status. They started vertically integrating and now own Marchon/Officemate and own some of their own optical labs. They have begun allowing commercial practices to bill directly to them. They are much less private practice friendly recently and are even flirting with an online optical.

They aren't the worst vision plan but they have definitely become less of optometry's friend. Hopefully they will stop this trend. Their employees get treated like kings while the doctors just keep getting pay cuts from them.

 

[thecgrblue]

:troll:

I wish it was trolling', but I honestly think that SoCal is oblivious to his/her own lack of knowledge.

 

[socal2014]

Yes, an inferior student with no experience in the field must have much to explain to me.Seeing as your previous posts are visible to anyone, it takes roughly 5 min to see that you spend a great deal of time on this site spouting your ignorance....I say that because you have never spent one day in the field as a doctor, yet think that you have the license to tell people how it "really is"....THAT, ladies and gents, is the definition of arrogance.Anyone that has ZERO field experience, in anything, that thinks they have more knowledge than someone out for 15 years, that is insane. Again, anyone would tell you that.

Clearly I have a huge ego, seeing as I send a majority of my time here to try to mentor people into how to avoid the overstatements of this profession. I am only on this site because I recently hired a young tech that is hoping to go to op school, and his experiences on this site were full of grossly inflated negativity. You have no credibility for accomplishing anything but not getting into school, so I highly doubt you know this business better than I do. You are an ignorant kid that thinks they know everything, which I can find in anywhere. This site only exists as an outlet for you to give display your sour grapes. No one is better off for anything that you say, and that is a reality. Please stop.

And yes, I am quite stupid. That must be it. Thank you for clearing that up. a kid with a BS and 3.1 must have much to teach me. I appreciate that insight. Wow.

I said you were very stupid because you don't understand simple supply and demand. Honestly, a couple of my colleges were giggling over your posts. Please stop trying to avoid optometric issues and answer the many questions which I have asked. You should know the answer though, since you are an OD, am I right? At least if you are incapable of answering these questions, than stop sugar coating facts.

As far as experience in the field, I would say I have a generous amount of experience. More than most posters on here. You're credible? I could open up an SDN account and call myself an OD too and brag about these so called practices.

You are on here because your tech? Ah I see now, Captain America, aka dilligaf is here to save the day! Please. You have not fooled me. Most of your posts make no sense, you think you understand business economics, and you honestly believe, because you have 15 years in experience, that what you say is credible.

'Hey people, there is no oversupply because I said so. My opinion is credible because I have 15 years experience in the field!' etc etc...or "VSP helps private practices" You are trying to sugar coat optometric issues, but you get lost in the middle of it all and end up contradicting facts.

Simply put, you are blinded by your minor success. However, once again, I urge you to challenge the points which I have made. Please look past your mighty practices, and residency trained associates (lol).

 

[Shnurek]

I said you were very stupid because you don't understand simple supply and demand. Honestly, a couple of my colleges were giggling over your posts. Please stop trying to avoid optometric issues and answer the many questions which I have asked. You should know the answer though, since you are an OD, am I right? At least if you are incapable of answer these questions, than stop sugar coating facts.

As far as experience in the field, I would say I have a generous amount of experience. More than most posters on here. You're credible? I could open up an SDN account and call myself an OD too.

You are on here because your tech. Ah I see now, Captain America, aka dilligaf is here to save the day! Please. You have not fooled me. Most of your posts make no sense, you think you understand business economics, and you honestly believe, because you have 15 years in experience, that what you say is credible.

'Hey people, there is no oversupply because I said so. My opinion is credible because I have 15 years experience in the field!' etc etc...

Simply put, you are blinded by your minor success. However, once again, I urge you to challenge the points which I have made. Please look past your mighty practices, and residency trained associates (lol).

Who is up for banning socal? I'm in.

 

[mintyjulep]

I said you were very stupid because you don't understand simple supply and demand. Honestly, a couple of my colleges were giggling over your posts. Please stop trying to avoid optometric issues and answer the many questions which I have asked. You should know the answer though, since you are an OD, am I right? At least if you are incapable of answering these questions, than stop sugar coating facts.

As far as experience in the field, I would say I have a generous amount of experience. More than most posters on here. You're credible? I could open up an SDN account and call myself an OD too and brag about these so called practices.

You are on here because your tech? Ah I see now, Captain America, aka dilligaf is here to save the day! Please. You have not fooled me. Most of your posts make no sense, you think you understand business economics, and you honestly believe, because you have 15 years in experience, that what you say is credible.

'Hey people, there is no oversupply because I said so. My opinion is credible because I have 15 years experience in the field!' etc etc...or "VSP helps private practices" You are trying to sugar coat optometric issues, but you get lost in the middle of it all and end up contradicting facts.

Simply put, you are blinded by your minor success. However, once again, I urge you to challenge the points which I have made. Please look past your mighty practices, and residency trained associates (lol).

By "colleges" do you mean "colleagues"? By "colleagues" do you mean fellow first year opto students?

Been there, done that, haven't you?

 

[Taven7755]

In all seriousness, SoCal and his general tone on here (i.e. the "throw yourself out of a window please" comment over their "do minority students get accepted easier" post are why no one takes this forum seriously....and for real, almost anyone that goes to Nova knows who DILLIGAF really is, and he is not someone you want to question the credibility of. He calls himself that over the fact that he once had it on his door when he was a resident here. or "does it look like I give a .....yeah" Most people that have been here awhile know who it is. I am not name dropping anymore than he is by giving people an education opportunity.

Here is a hint: Lookup the externship sites of SCCO, SUNY, and Nova, and you will see one that is in Manchester, NH. Or if you prefer, read the Jannus book on ocular pharm/disease (the bible of ophal and optos) and flip to page 4 of the "contributors". That is who you are talking to....and I can guarantee that me or anyone else at my level or below (2nd year student) does not know more than that guy. If you think you do SoCal, you are much more ignorant than your posts indicate, and that is saying something. Actual doctors that actually know a thing or two are the only thing that even make anyone come on here. No one comes into an "optometry forum" to hear the ramblings of a very angry 1st year or pre-op. And yes, you could "pose" as a doctor, but as soon as you said much of anything your cover would be blown.

And stop it with the calling someone "stupid". What are we in 5th grade? You do nothing but prove his point by saying that. Jeez.

So yes, put me in for not listening to ill-informed and malicious people anymore. It's people like that, that make me want to never get on here anymore. Just pointless, ignorant, and angry. No thanks.

 

[thecgrblue]

Who is up for banning socal? I'm in.

I've been reporting everyone of the Socal's posts for the last week.

We know your colleagues weren't 'giggling' over the posts b/c we all know you are still trying to just get into a program.

 

[socal2014]

In all seriousness, SoCal and his general tone on here (i.e. the "throw yourself out of a window please" comment over their "do minority students get accepted easier" post are why no one takes this forum seriously....and for real, almost anyone that goes to Nova knows who DILLIGAF really is, and he is not someone you want to question the credibility of. He calls himself that over the fact that he once had it on his door when he was a resident here. or "does it look like I give a .....yeah" Most people that have been here awhile know who it is. I am not name dropping anymore than he is by giving people an education opportunity.

Here is a hint: Lookup the externship sites of SCCO, SUNY, and Nova, and you will see one that is in Manchester, NH. Or if you prefer, read the Jannus book on ocular pharm/disease (the bible of ophal and optos) and flip to page 4 of the "contributors". That is who you are talking to....and I can guarantee that me or anyone else at my level or below (2nd year student) does not know more than that guy. If you think you do SoCal, you are much more ignorant than your posts indicate, and that is saying something. Actual doctors that actually know a thing or two are the only thing that even make anyone come on here. No one comes into an "optometry forum" to hear the ramblings of a very angry 1st year or pre-op. And yes, you could "pose" as a doctor, but as soon as you said much of anything your cover would be blown.

And stop it with the calling someone "stupid". What are we in 5th grade? You do nothing but prove his point by saying that. Jeez.

So yes, put me in for not listening to ill-informed and malicious people anymore. It's people like that, that make me want to never get on here anymore. Just pointless, ignorant, and angry. No thanks.

My tone is neutral. I am simply restating facts in a manner that most realistic individuals would understand. Now if there is a doc or student, and if he/she tries to argue against facts, then I feel as if I have a responsibility to correct him or her. You can take a look at my contributions to this thread and clearly I have not stated anything that isn't supported by facts or common sense.

Except for the name calling, which I would find is well deserved, due to the sheer stupidity illustrated by Captain America himself. However, I do agree, the name calling should stop and I do apologize for putting Captain America down. I am not malicious or ill-informed; plenty of people would agree that the schools themselves are deceptive, if they understood the true problems of Optometry. It just so happens that these people can't handle the truth, which is understandable.

 

[SIUE optkid]

It just so happens that these people can't handle the truth, which is understandable.

you want the truth! you can't handle the truth! your an idiot with no life!!!

 

[Commando303]

In all seriousness, SoCal and his general tone on here (i.e. the "throw yourself out of a window please" comment over their "do minority students get accepted easier" post are why no one takes this forum seriously....and for real, almost anyone that goes to Nova knows who DILLIGAF really is, and he is not someone you want to question the credibility of. He calls himself that over the fact that he once had it on his door when he was a resident here. or "does it look like I give a .....yeah" Most people that have been here awhile know who it is. I am not name dropping anymore than he is by giving people an education opportunity.

Here is a hint: Lookup the externship sites of SCCO, SUNY, and Nova, and you will see one that is in Manchester, NH. Or if you prefer, read the Jannus book on ocular pharm/disease (the bible of ophal and optos) and flip to page 4 of the "contributors". That is who you are talking to....and I can guarantee that me or anyone else at my level or below (2nd year student) does not know more than that guy. If you think you do SoCal, you are much more ignorant than your posts indicate, and that is saying something. Actual doctors that actually know a thing or two are the only thing that even make anyone come on here. No one comes into an "optometry forum" to hear the ramblings of a very angry 1st year or pre-op. And yes, you could "pose" as a doctor, but as soon as you said much of anything your cover would be blown.

And stop it with the calling someone "stupid". What are we in 5th grade? You do nothing but prove his point by saying that. Jeez.

So yes, put me in for not listening to ill-informed and malicious people anymore. It's people like that, that make me want to never get on here anymore. Just pointless, ignorant, and angry. No thanks.

I don't want to jump in here to pour gas onto this now-aimless fire, but I will briefly chime in to say, this idea one's opinions are invalidated in a room with someone who has more experience, is unsound. One can have been around for a long time, and have a stack of accomplishments on which to stand, but that should not preclude one's word from being challenged by a person with far less time in the arena. If it were the other way around, we wouldn't have to think about much of anything, at all: we could just find the oldest person in the room, ask him how he feels, then lean back in contentment that the answer has been revealed. (Again, if you intend to share it, save your complaint that I've taken anyone's side — that isn't what this post is.)