Is being replaced by mid levels a legitimate concern in peds?

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Some approaches come to mind. My sense is that the senior docs are the only ones that can move the needle on this. They may not have a lot of clout but the top dogs have more than everyone else. I've heard the excuses, too cheap, too busy, etc. I think it's apathy and lack of organization.

1) Attendings should specifically document when midlevels mis-manage patients. Docs need to make sure to write in their notes that the PCP is a NP or PA. And due to the CARES Act, patients can see doctors' notes which will help educate patients. Docs are also obligated to tell their patients why a screw-up happened. Eventually the risk management department will start to get the message.

2) Docs could push back on contracts that mandate mid-level supervision for what they perceive as low/nominal compensation. Docs should push back on the volume / numbers of mid-levels they agree to supervise.

3) ED attendings, when discharging patients and you're asked about locating a good doctor -- you need to take the opportunity to educate. Give them a list of doctors and say something like "for your next appointment, ask to be seen by a physician." Many patients have no idea they are being seen by a PA or a nurse and assume the man/woman walking into the room with a long white coat is a physician.

4) If the situation is as dire as it sounds, physician groups need to bargain collectively. Maybe this isn't unionization but there needs to be some level of pushback on the MBAs that are running the show. Residents and recently minted attendings with $300k debt aren't going to lead this. Has to be the senior, strongest docs leading the charge. Make demands, negotiate, challenge. This is where the problem lies, IMO. The docs who have all the brains, training, and talent are not collectively working together to improve their profession by pushing back on ownership / PE. The senior docs are probably too comfortable to rock the boat.

5) Public shaming - utilize the all too willing world of journalism to "out" the excessive use of mid-levels, the mismanaged care from mid-levels when it happens, and the money grubbing MBAs who are taking an enormous cut from your salaries and don't respect your training. Big healthcare systems "HATE" bad press.

6) Professional lobbying ---- if the AMA sucks, why don't the senior docs get together and do something about it ? Why don’t doctors collectively hire lobbying firms that will advocate for their interests? Again, the senior, most powerful docs have to lead the way here. If you don't have time, hire firms to do this. As someone noted upthread, perhaps even throwing in some exorbitant performance bonuses (ie. for every successful state effort to ban independent mid level practice, you get a 1m dollar bonus). If resources were pooled, it would cost little.
In terms of lobby, the nurses have a much better lobby as there are so many of them. And I have spoken to my local state reps, they are all about "access to care,"

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Makes sense to have midlevels with the sickest patients with no oversight?
I feel like you have very selective reading comprehension. I will quote the post that explains how they are most commonly used.

So you think attendings pre-round on their patients? Give updates to every family member about every irrelevant detail? Put in every order? Transport every patient for a study? Fill out every discharge instruction? In the procedural fields, they are the ones fielding all the calls while the surgeons are in the OR.

And, where I work, only attendings can provide billing documents so I don’t have to read any charts.
But sure, the mid levels are running amok with no supervision
 
I feel like you have very selective reading comprehension. I will quote the post that explains how they are most commonly used.


But sure, the mid levels are running amok with no supervision
They are essentially hospital employed permanent residents.

Sure, they get paid more than residents, but all they can ever be is a resident. Personally, that sounds awful.
 
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Makes sense to have midlevels with the sickest patients with no oversight?
Well, this doesn’t happen so clearly it appears you have no idea what you are talking about.

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You'd be surprised. At larger hospital systems patients see an np. When I have questions about care no one can see to locate the supervisor physician.
 
They are essentially hospital employed permanent residents.

Sure, they get paid more than residents, but all they can ever be is a resident. Personally, that sounds awful.
I treat nps. They are thrilled that the deepest pocket is the supervisor doctor. They are fine with the system as the amount of money they make is high for a nurse. And the supervision I've seen in larger hospital systems is not good. Those attendings are busy with their own patients.
 
I treat nps. They are thrilled that the deepest pocket is the supervisor doctor. They are fine with the system as the amount of money they make is high for a nurse. And the supervision I've seen in larger hospital systems is not good. Those attendings are busy with their own patients.
This literally makes no sense but okay.
 
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They are essentially hospital employed permanent residents.

Sure, they get paid more than residents, but all they can ever be is a resident. Personally, that sounds awful.
To be fair in my experience they work M-F 9-5 and don’t take call or cover weekend/holiday coverage.

I realize PICU might be different but I highly doubt there are many midlevels working 70-80 hour weeks or working 26-27 days a month at any point in their lives, which is the major downside to being a resident.
 
To be fair in my experience they work M-F 9-5 and don’t take call or cover weekend/holiday coverage.

I realize PICU might be different but I highly doubt there are many midlevels working 70-80 hour weeks or working 26-27 days a month at any point in their lives, which is the major downside to being a resident.
Yes, they work more like 40-50 hours per week. They also get more days off than a resident. They do work third shift though as well as weekends and holidays.

Being a resident is also temporary and involves a lot of education. Mid-levels get no additional training and are residents forever… unless they get into administration.
 
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What part of the second half of my earlier statement do you not understand? Whenever I try to contact a hospital about an Nps care they are unable to tell me or identify who is supervising them. They say I can talk to the np, which I will not do. The supervisor is just a rubber stamp.
 
What part of the second half of my earlier statement do you not understand? Whenever I try to contact a hospital about an Nps care they are unable to tell me or identify who is supervising them. They say I can talk to the np, which I will not do. The supervisor is just a rubber stamp.
So does this mean you have NP's running around doing whatever they choose without physicians supervising, checking, or stepping in to perform roles the NP's are not trained for ? In the words, NP's masquerading as physicians ?
 
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So does this mean you have NP's running around doing whatever they choose without physicians supervising, checking, or stepping in to perform roles the NP's are not trained for ? In the words, NP's masquerading as physicians ?
Wait until you work in a hospital. The physicians have full loads of patients themselves. They don't have time to supervise.
 
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In my state there are physicians over 60 miles away with numerous np under their license. $$$
 
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Wait until you work in a hospital. The physicians have full loads of patients themselves. They don't have time to supervise.
Again, this varies based on the hospital. I have worked in 3 different health systems as a physician, and in the NICU, PICU, and inpatient floor, the NPs all work very closely with the physicians in charge of the unit. With direct supervision. They are working collaboratively, not independently. In this system, the NPs work well--they know all the ins and outs of daily management but are still supervised, allowing the physician to spend their time doing other things.

Yes, we know this doesn't work everywhere. But it is how NPs and PAs should be used and is the experience of multiple people on this thread.
 
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1. Younger attendings in cognitive specialities (lower paying) don't want to rabble rouse as the hospital system they likely work for heavily utilizes NPs and speaking out publicly about your employer's hiring practices is unwise. They likely have massive student loan debt and young families. They need health insurance and every penny they can get. "hey babe, I know we're barely scraping by, but I'm thinking of starting a group to protest midlevel encroachment in the job that pays our bills." Good luck with that one. Losing your job and being restrained by your non-compete...

2. Established attendings that aren't close to retirement age are pretty comfortable. Established practices. Loans mostly paid off. Kids now college aged and are about to get more expensive. Sure they hate what they see, but are also likely hospital employed, are paid fairly well at this point, and don't want to rock the boat. They are also more likely to need health insurance now as they are at an age that things may begin happening. If they just keep their heads low and crank out patients, maybe they can weather the storm with their regular patients that know the difference between them and their assistant(s). They are certainly not comfortable financially enough yet to be down for the cause and speak out about who their boss hires.

3. Older attendings are another EMR change from retiring. They're checked out and looking forward to the next frontier.

4. Retired docs... lol on this one.

I agree there needs to be a conglomerate of physicians speaking out against the system but it has to be well funded to grease the right people. Who exactly is going to fund this? Don't forget the perception that we're rich, greedy money hungry pigs and the reason why healthcare is so expensive right now. High earners do better with keeping a low profile.

So in all of this, to quote George Clooney in O' Brother where art Thou: Damn, We're in a tight spot.

Going down the road, all cognitive fields are in trouble. To the suits they are easily replaceable with EMR, point, click, differential diagnosis, tests to order, refer. Cheap labor. It's an MBA's wet dream, especially with the clout of government on their side.

Student loan prison has greased the skids for much of this to happed.
 
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Again, this varies based on the hospital. I have worked in 3 different health systems as a physician, and in the NICU, PICU, and inpatient floor, the NPs all work very closely with the physicians in charge of the unit. With direct supervision. They are working collaboratively, not independently. In this system, the NPs work well--they know all the ins and outs of daily management but are still supervised, allowing the physician to spend their time doing other things.

Yes, we know this doesn't work everywhere. But it is how NPs and PAs should be used and is the experience of multiple people on this thread.
My first attending job in 2009 I questioned why the outpatient np wasn't being used collaboratively. They did not like my questions so I didn't sign to Collab with her. They found another doctor at another location to sign her charts.
I am just giving you what I've seen. I'm in psych. And on the input psych units I've seen once again Collab from far away. There aren't many psychiatrists.
 
My first attending job in 2009 I questioned why the outpatient np wasn't being used collaboratively. They did not like my questions so I didn't sign to Collab with her. They found another doctor at another location to sign her charts.
I am just giving you what I've seen. I'm in psych. And on the input psych units I've seen once again Collab from far away. There aren't many psychiatrists.
Why are you posting opinions about inpatient pediatric care in the pediatrics forum when you are an outpatient psychiatric doctor?
 
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Today in linked in. I see a person with board certified inpatient psychiatric nurse practitioner
 
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100%--and anyone who argues otherwise likely is not following national trends or recent job markets.

I know multiple new grads who had difficulty findings jobs.
 
100%--and anyone who argues otherwise likely is not following national trends or recent job markets.

I know multiple new grads who had difficulty findings jobs.
In New York, Boston, or LA? Here in the Midwest still takes 8 weeks for an appointment. In New England it’s much faster
 
In New York, Boston, or LA? Here in the Midwest still takes 8 weeks for an appointment. In New England it’s much faster

In major metro areas in SA, Houston, Austin, and Dallas, Seattle, and Portland. One coresident had to move to rural Oregon.


With the current rise of midlevels expected to continue, it's not looking hot. Look at that system in Dallas, they let go of 13 pediatricians and replaced them all with midlevels.
 
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In major metro areas in SA, Houston, Austin, and Dallas, Seattle, and Portland. One coresident had to move to rural Oregon.


With the current rise of midlevels expected to continue, it's not looking hot. Look at that system in Dallas, they let go of 13 pediatricians and replaced them all with midlevels.
Is this a TX problem ? You'd think parents would want their kids seen by an actual doctor.
 
Is this a TX problem ? You'd think parents would want their kids seen by an actual doctor.

Yeah parents don’t give a **** about the kids. They cost a lot, throw tantrums, and don’t work. They just need to do the bare minimum so the authorities don’t show up at the house or let’s be honest over priced apartment they will likely rent for the rest of their lives and take them away to jail in front of nonexistent friends sacrificing whatever little bit of dignity they have left.

With that in mind, A DNP calling themselves doctor is pretty low on the list of things middle class parents care about.
 
Yeah parents don’t give a **** about the kids. They cost a lot, throw tantrums, and don’t work. They just need to do the bare minimum so the authorities don’t show up at the house or let’s be honest over priced apartment they will likely rent for the rest of their lives and take them away to jail in front of nonexistent friends sacrificing whatever little bit of dignity they have left.

With that in mind, A DNP calling themselves doctor is pretty low on the list of things middle class parents care about.
Ouch - stark view of the American middle class.

My kid will go to a pediatrician. And if it's something mild where an NP is appropriate, I'll ask for discounted rate. Why should the consumer pay the same for an NP with literally a fraction of MD training ?
 
Ouch - stark view of the American middle class.

My kid will go to a pediatrician. And if it's something mild where an NP is appropriate, I'll ask for discounted rate. Why should the consumer pay the same for an NP with literally a fraction of MD training ?

Yeah you should ask for a 15% discount. Medicare seems to think that’s appropriate and be extension you are also obligated to think it is right and just.
 
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Yeah you should ask for a 15% discount. Medicare seems to think that’s appropriate and be extension you are also obligated to think it is right and just.
PA or NP should be half price, at most. Mid-level replacement of MD's should be resisted at every turn.
 
Oregon has already ended that and reimbursement is the same. It will likely be national soon.
Ridiculous. Physicians should just strike if a national reimbursement parity goes into effect. Railroad workers, nurses, etc. can all strike so why not doctors?
 
100%--and anyone who argues otherwise likely is not following national trends or recent job markets.

I know multiple new grads who had difficulty findings jobs.
Maybe?

I can't speak to everywhere but in my half of my state (SC), the hospital pediatric groups are 100% MD/DO with 1 exception in a rural office. We have a FM office in that same area and recruiting for it is very difficult. There is a large peds group up here that's private and I believe owned by either PE or something similar that does use lots of midlevels so maybe that's part of the problem in some places.

In the state capital there are 2 huge private peds groups that do 95% of peds work in the area, they still do their own inpatient as well. No midlevels.
 
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We also have three experienced NP’s who see all the same patients and visits we do. They’re not supervised by the docs, and work along side us. However the NP’s are paid less and don’t get RVU bonuses like the doctors. Thus, I am wondering, what is stopping my employer from one day replacing me with an NP to save money?
Nothing. This is currently happening in many markets. If you are employed and not part owner, your company is already comparing your value - guaranteed.

I know my training is more rigorous but for a strictly outpatient gen peds job like mine where most complex cases go to the specialist and the hospitalist does all the inpatient care, is there a future for a physician? Or am I likely to be replaced by an NP? I keep hearing physicians will get replaced my mid levels, especially in primary care and I don’t know if this is overblown or if I should genuinely be concerned and look for career alternatives now. I don’t mind working alongside NPs but would like to keep my outpatient only peds job and salary as it is.
If you provide no added value over an NP, your job will always be in jeopardy. We both know that your knowledge base is greater, but that does not necessarily matter to upper management. Administration looks more at numbers than they do anything else - no matter what anyone would like to tell you. Especially as an outpatient only provider, you should at least be concerned.

I would not be so quick to drop your hospital skills - keep up with your PALS and NRP certifications even if it is not a requirement. Keep your CV updated and a good emergency reserve fund in the bank.

If you are physician employed, it is somewhat different. But even at my company (About 100 physician shareholders) we are questioning the value of some of our primary care providers that have stopped providing inpatient care.
 
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Nothing. This is currently happening in many markets. If you are employed and not part owner, your company is already comparing your value - guaranteed.


If you provide no added value over an NP, your job will always be in jeopardy. We both know that your knowledge base is greater, but that does not necessarily matter to upper management. Administration looks more at numbers than they do anything else - no matter what anyone would like to tell you. Especially as an outpatient only provider, you should at least be concerned.

I would not be so quick to drop your hospital skills - keep up with your PALS and NRP certifications even if it is not a requirement. Keep your CV updated and a good emergency reserve fund in the bank.

If you are physician employed, it is somewhat different. But even at my company (About 100 physician shareholders) we are questioning the value of some of our primary care providers that have stopped providing inpatient care.

Yup, just within the last 6 months, my multispeciality physician owned group of about 30 docs laid off all FM and Pedi docs in our Urgent Care and replaced them with midlevels.


Admin only cares about money--and nothing else. I remember at my training hospital the chair would fight to keep new cancer diagnoses at our hospital even after our own heme onc team asked for a transfer. It always comes down to $$$. This physician knew the patient would not receive the best therapy/treatment options at our hospital but still pushed for it.
 
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Yup, just within the last 6 months, my multispeciality physician owned group of about 30 docs laid off all FM and Pedi docs in our Urgent Care and replaced them with midlevels.
Wow, I assume the doctors who were laid off were not owners?
 
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At my training institution they recently started a Pediatric "NP hospitalist" program. There are also a lot of NP's in the subspecialties as many Pediatric residents are choosing to enter General Pediatrics over a subspecialty given the extra training and poor financial return. Appears like NP's can enter any subspecialty with limited extra training. In my mind, General Pediatrics might actually be a better protected field as a lot of private practice remains, there are a lot more patients who require care, and parents generally actively choose who their pediatrician is going to be rather than just being assigned someone in the children's hospital.

Doesn't seem like either political party is interested in protecting physicians. I think the answer might be physicians leaving in mass from being employed to creating giant, private practice, physician owned, multi-specialty groups that then contract with hospitals.
 
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Wow, I assume the doctors who were laid off were not owners?

I know of only one who was a confirmed partner, not sure what happened or the exact details. The others were not.

This caught many of us by surprise, as during COVID our UCC got the brunt of the pandemic. Both FM and Pedi stopped seeing any sick and we were directing them all to our UCC. To see them disposed of so easily was a good reminder.
 
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I know of only one who was a confirmed partner, not sure what happened or the exact details. The others were not.

This caught many of us by surprise, as during COVID our UCC got the brunt of the pandemic. Both FM and Pedi stopped seeing any sick and we were directing them all to our UCC. To see them disposed of so easily was a good reminder.
Wow, you would have to move heaven and earth to oust one of our shareholders (which is how we want it). But what a slap in the face to the urgent care clinic doctors! "Thanks for covering the front lines during Covid. Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out!" Just terrible.
 
Wow, you would have to move heaven and earth to oust one of our shareholders (which is how we want it). But what a slap in the face to the urgent care clinic doctors! "Thanks for covering the front lines during Covid. Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out!" Just terrible.

Yeah, from what I heard through third party people (and thus can't verify if it's true), the docs had no idea what was going on. Apparently they showed up in the AM for a meeting with a top admin and were told pretty abruptly. Again, can't confirm it's true.

From what I do know from direct sources, is that they began cutting benefits/ancillary staff to the UCC physicians, thus some of them had some idea what was going on.
 
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Appears like NP's can enter any subspecialty with limited extra training.
This statement caught my eye. NP's can serve as NP's in Cardiology, PICU, NICU, etc. but are they literally displacing, for example, pediatric cardiologists?
 
They are when the hospital gets one pediatric cards and two np rather than two ped cards...

Yup--this is what the future is. Having one physician (with added liability) while multiple less paid NPs/PAs work for them.

Even with harmful patient outcomes (like we've had in TX), there will be no progress. Unless the child of a politician dies, but we all know they will always get physician level care.
 
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Yup--this is what the future is. Having one physician (with added liability) while multiple less paid NPs/PAs work for them.

Even with harmful patient outcomes (like we've had in TX), there will be no progress. Unless the child of a politician dies, but we all know they will always get physician level care.
Wow, if my kid has a heart problem I wouldn't even think about an NP. What parent would say "we don't have to see a cardiologist, just set us up with that NP," unless you're in some rural area with no choice. Crazy.
 
Wow, if my kid has a heart problem I wouldn't even think about an NP. What parent would say "we don't have to see a cardiologist, just set us up with that NP," unless you're in some rural area with no choice. Crazy.
These places make it sound like both are the same. The MD is booked out 3 months. Np can see you in two weeks. What do you think more people will do?
 
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