Im a Amedd Recruiter!

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Greetings all! Like the title says Im a Amedd recruiter and mostly recruit HPSP. I joined this forum to answer questions and gain insight into military medicine and military docs. I am currently stationed in New Jersey and cover most of NJ.(UMDNJ, Rutgers, Seton Hall). Look forward to chatting with all of you!

SSG Clevenger

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[73BARMYPgsp]

Greetings all! Like the title says Im a Amedd recruiter and mostly recruit HPSP. I joined this forum to answer questions and gain insight into military medicine and military docs. I am currently stationed in New Jersey and cover most of NJ.(UMDNJ, Rutgers, Seton Hall). Look forward to chatting with all of you!

SSG Clevenger

Good luck SSG.

 

[Homunculus]

kinda reminds me of the discovery channel specials where the field mouse wanders into the rattlesnake hole.

hopefully the good SSG Clevenger has read through the threads in the forum and has an idea of what's coming. otherwise a few issues may catch him off guard. it's good to have all sides represented here, and i trust everyone will be respectful.

recruiters come in here, but i've yet to see one stay very long. maybe he'll be different. . .

--your friendly neighborhood watching this thread caveman

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

kinda reminds me of the discovery channel specials where the field mouse wanders into the rattlesnake hole.

hopefully the good SSG Clevenger has read through the threads in the forum and has an idea of what's coming. otherwise a few issues may catch him off guard. it's good to have all sides represented here, and i trust everyone will be respectful.

recruiters come in here, but i've yet to see one stay very long. maybe he'll be different. . .

--your friendly neighborhood watching this thread caveman

Thanks for the warning...lol...I have already read plenty of horror stories about military medicine and Im sure there are plenty of the same stories on the civilian side. (my wife is a psychiatrist..Ive heard it all!) Im not hear to debate military vs. civilian medicine. Just here to field any questions and gain knowledge from this site and its members. Maybe even get a lead! HAHA

 

[BomberDoc]

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines!

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

My prior job to becoming a recruiter was PAD. Patient Admin NCO. So needless to say, I hate frickin Army nurses as much as you guys/girls! Nothing worse in this world than making a male nurse a commissioned officer and giving them responsibility. j/k of course

OK that was my attempt at a icebreaker...lol

 

[navdoc47]

I wonder if recruiters realize that the fewer people they recruit, the higher the pay bonuses of military members who are already in the system.

I'm always surprised a lot of recruiters think that officer recruits either don't qualify or would benefit from a GI Bill. If recruiters were smart, they would tout the benefits of the GI Bill and show how much people could get if they were to use it in a civilian residency.

SSG - I think you'll enjoy reading my previous post:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324400

 

[Galo]

No disrespect, but you really have to understand your product. There are not too many ways to polish a turd, and you have worse than a turd on your hand. If you can sell a 4 (8 IRR) yr commitment that includes a significant possibility of training interruption and increasing your commitment to get trained, potentially bottom tier GME, potential mediocre colleagues, poor leadership, poor to no support, and a practically zero retention rate. Who with that information would sign away their early career?? You have a job I could not imagine how you will do.

To get a glimpse of what your up against, check what current and ex AD physicians are saying:

http://www.health.mil/Debates/Debate.aspx?ID=9&a=1

Also you will need a few hours, (days) to familiarize yourself with this forum.

 

[notdeadyet]

Here's a couple of questions for you:

1. Is there a website you can point me to that shows the number of slots available for different specialties for FAP? I realize it varies year to year, but I'd like to get an idea of what's available out there as a baseline.

2. Do you have any links to information about the Direct Accession Bonus? I'm curious about the dollar amounts by specialty.

Zero interest in HPSP. Interested in the other programs but I've been able to find very little hard information published about them.

 

[Perrotfish]

A question I´ve never been able to get an answer to, maybe you have the info:

Could you please tell me what the average Step one scores and average class ranks are for straight through training in the various military residencies?

 

[colbgw02]

A serious piece of advice - take some time to understand the type of people you're recruiting.

The future physicians that you're recruiting, whether they realize it now or realize it later, will not compare their military careers to those of other non-physician officers. They will compare their military careers to other non-military physicians.

And the truth about that comparison is that military medicine comes up short. Civilians physician don't have training interruptions; they get paid significantly more for most specialties; they don't get deployed; they don't have clipboard carrying nurses pulling rank on them. Hell, they don't even know what a GMO tour is, considering that the concept of a general practitioner was phased out of civilian medicine decades ago.

So, don't blow smoke up their a$$es. You're pushing an inferior product. Tell them that, and then explain all the reasons they should do it anyway. If they sign up, they need to do it knowing that they are giving up a lot as compared to their classmates. They need to know the shortcomings of the system, and they need to sign up in spite of those problems. They need to sign up because they know the system is screwed, but they want to help out anyway.

 

[Blando]

i appreciate you being here to field questions for people who are interested in army medicine

 

[mitchconnie]

Like the title says Im a Amedd recruiter and mostly recruit HPSP. I joined this forum to answer questions and gain insight into military medicine and military docs.

Really?...well…OK…since you’re here, let me give you what I consider the top five lies or half-truths that medical recruiters use so the responsible folks like yourself will stop using them.

1. “97% (or some such absurdly high number) get their first choice of residency”: So totally inaccurate it’s laughable. Over the last few years, 25-30% of Air Force HPSP students didn’t get to do ANY residency and were forced into GMO tours, similar for the Navy, better for the Army. But really, with very limited options for residency in the first place, what does “getting one of your top choices” even mean? The simple fact is that residency training options are severely limited by a military commitment.

2. “Avoid administrative hassles and focus only on patient care”: Maybe this was true 20 years ago, but in the post-AHLTA world, the administrative burden is oppressive--much worse than what I deal with in my civilian moonlighting job. It takes me literally 2 hours at the end of a clinic day to catch up on AHLTA notes. I don’t know how primary care people survive. And unlike civilian practice, you rarely have competent staff to help deal with the problems.

3. “You’ll get to see the world!”: Sure, you’ll see a lot of different countries—I’ve looked out on half-a-dozen different Middle-Eastern hell-holes from behind barbed wire. But the fact is, the desirable “European vacation” tours in the UK, Italy, Germany, etc. are usually taken by people with seniority. The fresh-out-of-residency HPSP’er is headed for Minot, North Dakota, or Fort Bliss, Texas (both of which ARE technically part of “the world”…I guess).

4. “Work with the latest technology”: Maybe true in isolated cases at a few large medical centers, but by and large my experience is that the military lags 5-10 years behind our civilian counterparts when in comes to surgical equipment.

5. “No malpractice and great benefits”: Technically true, but largely irrelevant. Sure, civilian doctors can pay a lot in malpractice premiums, but it’s an expense that figures in as a part of total overhead, not something that comes directly out of your take-home pay. And while military physicians are not personally liable for damages, patients certainly can sue, and physicians are not infrequently reported to the National Practitioner Data-base. The military carries out its own little in-house witch hunts when complications happen, and they can be nearly as bad as a civilian malpractice proceeding. In most cases, all of the great “benefits” added together are way less than civilian compensation—20-30% of civilian salaries in some cases.


There may well be some good reasons to join the military, but most recruiters are just spouting nonsense. I sincerely hope that you will buck the trend.

 

[Perrotfish]

1. “97% (or some such absurdly high number) get their first choice of residency”: So totally inaccurate it’s laughable. Over the last few years, 25-30% of Air Force HPSP students didn’t get to do ANY residency and were forced into GMO tours, similar for the Navy, better for the Army. But really, with very limited options for residency in the first place, what does “getting one of your top choices” even mean? The simple fact is that residency training options are severely limited by a military commitment.

Every applicant I know was told this, despite it being completely and totally untrue. The consistency of it pretty amazing.

 

[pokerslut]

Greetings all! Like the title says Im a Amedd recruiter and mostly recruit HPSP. I joined this forum to answer questions and gain insight into military medicine and military docs. I am currently stationed in New Jersey and cover most of NJ.(UMDNJ, Rutgers, Seton Hall). Look forward to chatting with all of you!


SSG Clevenger

Thanks for posting SSS Clevenenger,

I had a few questions if you don't mind.

1. Can you obtain a military residency if you are prior service and went to medical school outside of the U.S.?

2. If the answer to the above is yes; can you do FAP for that military residency for payback?

3. I have 12 years of service; 6 active, 6 reserve-- Can I collect retirement with 14 years active and 6 years reserve time?

4. I'm thinking about doing an MBA; would this give me any extra rank, money, etc when I join the Army as a medical officer a year from now?

Thank you for your time

Good 'ol Fayettenam-- oh the memories. ...... just read your post about Bragg.

 

[elderjack21]

Every applicant I know was told this, despite it being completely and totally untrue. The consistency of it pretty amazing.

The Air Force recruiter told me that lie...and he really believed it, that was the best part.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Thanks for posting SSS Clevenenger,

I had a few questions if you don't mind.

1. Can you obtain a military residency if you are prior service and went to medical school outside of the U.S.?

2. If the answer to the above is yes; can you do FAP for that military residency for payback?

3. I have 12 years of service; 6 active, 6 reserve-- Can I collect retirement with 14 years active and 6 years reserve time?

4. I'm thinking about doing an MBA; would this give me any extra rank, money, etc when I join the Army as a medical officer a year from now?

Thank you for your time

Good 'ol Fayettenam-- oh the memories. ...... just read your post about Bragg.

Fayettenam..gotta love it! Yadkin road..lol...

1. to be a military resident, you have to be a military doc. If you went to a foreign medical school you would need a EFMCG
3. Your reserve drill time counts toward active duty retirement(2 weeks a year 1 weekend a month) So how every many days that is would count.
4. Are you in medical school now, graduated or planning to apply? A MBA would not influence your rank determination unless you were a nurse with a Master's in nursing

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

The Air Force recruiter told me that lie...and he really believed it, that was the best part.

Ok..To answer the residency scandal..The fact is the Army(not navy or AF) last year had a 97% match rate for the students top 3 choices. Not their first choice. Its unfortunate that ill-informed recruiters are giving the wrong facts. Im not sure what the match rates for the AF and Navy are? I believe they have to be a lot lower seeing that they do not have the vast number of medical facilities as the Army. Truth be told, I hear and read about 10 AF and Navy HPSP horror stories to every 1 Army. Like stated in the previous post, Im not here to debate military medicine or be an advocate of it, just here to answer any questions and to gain an insight to military medicine and docs.


OK...So no one liked my ice breaker?

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Every applicant I know was told this, despite it being completely and totally untrue. The consistency of it pretty amazing.

For HPSP, you are required to apply and accept a residency prior to graduating medical school. You complete your 1 year FYGME and then residency..

 

[notdeadyet]

You complete your 1 year FYGME and then residency..=No GMOs

There are no GMOs in the Army? I knew the Army had less than Air Force and Navy, but I had no idea that there were literally no GMOs in the Army. Can someone else vouch for this?

Any word on my questions about FAP and the Direct Accession Bonus?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Ok..To answer the residency scandal..The fact is the Army(not navy or AF) last year had a 97% match rate for the students top 3 choices. Not their first choice. Its unfortunate that ill-informed recruiters are giving the wrong facts. Im not sure what the match rates for the AF and Navy are? I believe they have to be a lot lower seeing that they do not have the vast number of medical facilities as the Army.

The problem here is how these statistics are measured. When I applied, I was expected to rank the two air force programs in my specialty and civilian deferrment. Thus, my "top three" picks. Of course, if I were able to rank all the civilian programs I'd rather be at than those two air force programs, they'd come in close to 50th! Even so, 50% of those applying that year not only didn't match into those two programs, but they didn't get the deferrment either, they got a GMO tour.

So when we say "top three choices" let's find out how their choices were limited. Sometimes the recruiters consider their top three choices to be 1) Emergency medicine, 2) Family Medicine, 3) Internship only. Woohoo! You got your third choice! One of the 97% of satisfied customers out there!

Let's be real. If HPSP students were allowed to rank their true "top three choices" (including civilian programs) the match numbers are extremely low, perhaps on the order of 10-30%. Even if you only look at the "top three choices where they were actually granted an interview", the numbers would be much lower than 97%. It is a useless statistic used incorrectly by recruiters to mislead HPSP applicants into believing the military match is not a big deal.

IT IS A BIG DEAL. It is the single worst part of the HPSP scholarship program. It is worse than low-acuity residency training. It is worse than military administrative b.s. It is worse than AHLTA. It is worse than being paid less than half of what you're worth. To actually have to delay practicing the type of medicine you want to do, delay the financial benefits of deferring your income for a decade, and go back to residency four years later in life when you have more dependents and financial responsibilities is the biggest problem with this scholarship.

Caveat: Not only did I get my first choice in the military match (civilian deferment), but I got my first choice overall as well, so I'm not complaining because I personally got screwed over. But I know of many people (who were good medical students/residents/doctors) who were, both personally and on this forum. The recruiters often say something like "The good med students can still match." My board scores were better than 95% of people taking the USMLE steps 1-3. How unfair is it to not match someone because they're not in the top 5% of med students? I could understand it if it were the bottom 5%, but most of those I know who were screwed over weren't anywhere near there. In fact, 2 out of 5 of the med students I rotated with at a military rotation as an MSIV didn't make the cut. I don't recall them performing any worse than I did on that rotation.

An informed applicant means a doctor more willing to stay after his commitment is up and one who is happier during his commitment. Although the truth of the matter is, I have yet to have an applicant who talked to me before signing up who still signed up, as far as I know, and I've talked to many over the years.

 

[notdeadyet]

Ok..To answer the residency scandal..The fact is the Army(not navy or AF) last year had a 97% match rate for the students top 3 choices. Not their first choice.

Wait, when you say Top 3 choices, are you referring to top 3 residencies, or top 3 specialties. Meaning, for all those Emergency Medicine afficianados out there, most of them got into one of the three Army Emergency Medicine programs?

Or do you mean, as ActiveDutyMD says, top 3 specialties. That's really no choice at all. You have one choice of specialty. You get it or you don't.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

The problem here is how these statistics are measured. When I applied, I was expected to rank the two air force programs in my specialty and civilian deferrment. Thus, my "top three" picks. Of course, if I were able to rank all the civilian programs I'd rather be at than those two air force programs, they'd come in close to 50th! Even so, 50% of those applying that year not only didn't match into those two programs, but they didn't get the deferrment either, they got a GMO tour.

So when we say "top three choices" let's find out how their choices were limited. Sometimes the recruiters consider their top three choices to be 1) Emergency medicine, 2) Family Medicine, 3) Internship only. Woohoo! You got your third choice! One of the 97% of satisfied customers out there!

Let's be real. If HPSP students were allowed to rank their true "top three choices" (including civilian programs) the match numbers are extremely low, perhaps on the order of 10-30%. Even if you only look at the "top three choices where they were actually granted an interview", the numbers would be much lower than 97%. It is a useless statistic used incorrectly by recruiters to mislead HPSP applicants into believing the military match is not a big deal.

IT IS A BIG DEAL. It is the single worst part of the HPSP scholarship program. It is worse than low-acuity residency training. It is worse than military administrative b.s. It is worse than AHLTA. It is worse than being paid less than half of what you're worth. To actually have to delay practicing the type of medicine you want to do, delay the financial benefits of deferring your income for a decade, and go back to residency four years later in life when you have more dependents and financial responsibilities is the biggest problem with this scholarship.

Caveat: Not only did I get my first choice in the military match (civilian deferment), but I got my first choice overall as well, so I'm not complaining because I personally got screwed over. But I know of many people (who were good medical students/residents/doctors) who were, both personally and on this forum. The recruiters often say something like "The good med students can still match." My board scores were better than 95% of people taking the USMLE steps 1-3. How unfair is it to not match someone because they're not in the top 5% of med students? I could understand it if it were the bottom 5%, but most of those I know who were screwed over weren't anywhere near there. In fact, 2 out of 5 of the med students I rotated with at a military rotation as an MSIV didn't make the cut. I don't recall them performing any worse than I did on that rotation.

An informed applicant means a doctor more willing to stay after his commitment is up and one who is happier during his commitment. Although the truth of the matter is, I have yet to have an applicant who talked to me before signing up who still signed up, as far as I know, and I've talked to many over the years.

Im assuming you are a AF doc? I know residency is a big deal..I did not say it wasnt. Army applicants apply for a Army match..They get 3 choices...They also apply for a civilian match..If they do not get one of their 3 military residencies, then the Army will let them do a civilian residency they got matched for...This is a rare...this is the 2% or whatnot that doesnt match

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Wait, when you say Top 3 choices, are you referring to top 3 residencies, or top 3 specialties. Meaning, for all those Emergency Medicine afficianados out there, most of them got into one of the three Army Emergency Medicine programs?

Or do you mean, as ActiveDutyMD says, top 3 specialties. That's really no choice at all. You have one choice of specialty. You get it or you don't.

Top 3 residencies...

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Here's a couple of questions for you:

1. Is there a website you can point me to that shows the number of slots available for different specialties for FAP? I realize it varies year to year, but I'd like to get an idea of what's available out there as a baseline.

2. Do you have any links to information about the Direct Accession Bonus? I'm curious about the dollar amounts by specialty.

Zero interest in HPSP. Interested in the other programs but I've been able to find very little hard information published about them.

1. not that I know of..I wish there was one!

2. Dont have a link..We as recruiters get messages when the bonus changes..Depending on your specialty the bonus is up too $75,000.

3. www.healthcare.goarmy.com/ Its hard because the Army has so many different programs, I just went TDY to the healthcare recruiter course and we spent a whole week on just programs.

 

[pokerslut]

Fayettenam..gotta love it! Yadkin road..lol...

1. to be a military resident, you have to be a military doc. If you went to a foreign medical school you would need a EFMCG
3. Your reserve drill time counts toward active duty retirement(2 weeks a year 1 weekend a month) So how every many days that is would count.
4. Are you in medical school now, graduated or planning to apply? A MBA would not influence your rank determination unless you were a nurse with a Master's in nursing

I'm in medical school now and will be looking to match in Physical Medicine and Rehab in two years. I'm confident that I can obtain a civilian residency with my resume and dedication to studying for the boards.

But best case scenario would be to match at Walter Reed for PM & R and also be on a FAP contract.

In the above scenario would my time in residency count towards retirement

Do military residencies only accept U.S. graduates?

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

I'm in medical school now and will be looking to match in Physical Medicine and Rehab in two years. I'm confident that I can obtain a civilian residency with my resume and dedication to studying for the boards.

But best case scenario would be to match at Walter Reed for PM & R and also be on a FAP contract.

In the above scenario would my time in residency count towards retirement

Do military residencies only accept U.S. graduates?

Goodluck on your match! I was actually stationed at WRAMC from 00-03.

Residency does count towards your retirement!

EFMCG...you should be good

 

[notdeadyet]

1. not that I know of..I wish there was one!

Can you provide a total list of the specialties available to FAP for this year?

This isn't directed at you, but I get the impression sometimes by the hard sell for HPSPS that recruiters have numbers to hit, but when you try to talk to them about FAP, another program that the military offers, everything gets very vague and ethereal. You can find out any granular level of detail online about HPSPS, but almost nothing about FAP. Why is that?

 

[ieatpizza]

SSG Clevenger,

I'm an Army HPSP student. Do you have match numbers for the most recent 2008 match? I'm looking for numbers similar to the ones posted on the MODS site, which aren't updated with this year's numbers (https://apps.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/MEDED4-07_files/frame.htm).

Thanks.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Can you provide a total list of the specialties available to FAP for this year?

This isn't directed at you, but I get the impression sometimes by the hard sell for HPSPS that recruiters have numbers to hit, but when you try to talk to them about FAP, another program that the military offers, everything gets very vague and ethereal. You can find out any granular level of detail online about HPSPS, but almost nothing about FAP. Why is that?

You are correct, I guess the military gets the most bang for its buck with HPSP. I will have to do some research at the office tomorrow and will try to get a list

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

SSG Clevenger,

I'm an Army HPSP student. Do you have match numbers for the most recent 2008 match? I'm looking for numbers similar to the ones posted on the MODS site, which aren't updated with this year's numbers (https://apps.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/MEDED4-07_files/frame.htm).

Thanks.

No I dont have 2008 so far. I dont think they post the stats until at the end of the fiscal year. I will see if I can get a runny tally tomorrow at the office

 

[notdeadyet]

You are correct, I guess the military gets the most bang for its buck with HPSP.

I believe that.

I will have to do some research at the office tomorrow and will try to get a list

Much appreciated. I thank you.

 

[RDC12304]

I am an applicant (probably a future HPSP'er)...Do you have a list of what is reimbursed and the value at which items are reimbursed. I can find the Navy's list but I am applying for Army. I know it is on the MODS site, but I do not have access.

Thanks,
RDC

 

[cavaor]

There certainly are GMOs still in the army. At one of the med cens, I know of at least 3 interns who will be doing GMO/FS next yr, and not by choice.

 

[ieatpizza]

I am an applicant (probably a future HPSP'er)...Do you have a list of what is reimbursed and the value at which items are reimbursed. I can find the Navy's list but I am applying for Army. I know it is on the MODS site, but I do not have access.

Thanks,
RDC

https://apps.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Handbook/Chapter7.pdf

This link should work w/o a password.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

There certainly are GMOs still in the army. At one of the med cens, I know of at least 3 interns who will be doing GMO/FS next yr, and not by choice.

Did they match a residency? Are they in their FYGME?

 

[ieatpizza]

There certainly are GMOs still in the army. At one of the med cens, I know of at least 3 interns who will be doing GMO/FS next yr, and not by choice.

I'm only a medical student, but forced GMO's are much rarer in the Army because almost all contracts are continuous. The one person I know that is doing GMO time wanted Ortho but didn't get it, so he's reapplying after some GMO time. Ortho is the one specialty in the Army that is consistently competitive where you risk not matching, along with maybe a couple of other specialties (ER, ENT, Derm, Anesthesia) depending on the year. But with other specialties, that's not a concern.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm only a medical student, but forced GMO's are much rarer in the Army because almost all contracts are continuous. The one person I know that is doing GMO time wanted Ortho but didn't get it, so he's reapplying after some GMO time. Ortho is the one specialty in the Army that is consistently competitive where you risk not matching, along with maybe a couple of other specialties (ER, ENT, Derm, Anesthesia) depending on the year. But with other specialties, that's not a concern.

I'd always heard that GMOs were more rare in the Army than Navy/AF, but SSG Clevenger said there are no GMOs in the Army. I'm confused now. There either are or there aren't.

 

[ieatpizza]

I'd always heard that GMOs were more rare in the Army than Navy/AF, but SSG Clevenger said there are no GMOs in the Army. I'm confused now. There either are or there aren't.

If I'm not mistaken, there are GMO's, but most are residency-trained. The few that are not residency-trained, from what I understand, either volunteered to do it or, like in the Navy/AF, didn't get the specialty they wanted and will reapply. The difference is that this number is drastically smaller than the Navy or AF simply because we have a larger training spot to applicant ratio (don't have the numbers on that though).

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

I'd always heard that GMOs were more rare in the Army than Navy/AF, but SSG Clevenger said there are no GMOs in the Army. I'm confused now. There either are or there aren't.

Didnt mean to say there are NO GMOs in the Army..Im sure there are a few but incoming HPSP students will not be GMOs. They are forced to apply for a Army and Civilian residency and accept what they matched. So I guess I am saying there are VERY FEW GMOs in the Army..lol..sorry..I guess a person could drop out of a residency...then they would be a GMO? Im guessing at this point. I just know that incoming HPSP students are basically forced to accept a military residency that they are matched

 

[notdeadyet]

The few that are not residency-trained, from what I understand, either volunteered to do it or, like in the Navy/AF, didn't get the specialty they wanted and will reapply.

Yes, this is the same as AF/Navy. Apparently the only GMO difference with Army is that there are fewer. It's not some special sauce that avoids it, it's just more residency slots. It's not a matter of policy for no GMO tours, it just rarely happens. That's a lot different than saying it doesn't happen.

Many of us have strong interest in some of the specialties you talk about (EM, Rads, etc.), so the fact that your odds are great on getting straight through training in FP/IM doesn't much matter if it means that for those of looking at competitive specialites, there's a very real shot we'll be an internship-trained person doing physicals for two years while hoping we get our residency opportunity next time.

Many of us aren't comfortable with HPSP for exactly this reason. I have no interest in working at the intern level for years. Until HPSP abolishes the chance of GMO tours (in writing), I'll look at other options for service. At least with FAP you'll be able to go in as the specialist you want to be.

 

[ieatpizza]

Yes, this is the same as AF/Navy. Apparently the only difference with Army is that there are fewer. It's not some special sauce that avoids it, it's just more residency slots. It's not a matter of policy for no GMO tours, it just rarely happens. That's a lot different than saying it doesn't happen.

So essentially, if you want to know you get straight through training, HPSP is not the way to go.

Not necessarily. Straight-through training is pretty much guaranteed for everything but the specialties I mentioned. Check out the MODS thing I posted, slides 12 and 13: https://apps.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/MEDED4-07_files/frame.htm. You'll see that most specialties have an applicant to spot ratio of 1 or less. If you're thinking about a specialty that has a greater than 1 ratio then you are running that gamble. I don't know how many of those unmatched people went to a civilian deferment, a different specialty, or whatever. Those ratios will actually decrease beginning in the next few matches because there are less HPSP recruits.

But you're right, it just depends what specialties you are interested in, and how you weigh the uncertainty. For me, for example, I'm 99% sure I'll get the specialty of my choice because I'm not applying to one of the more competitive residencies and I judge myself to be a competitive applicant.

Many of us aren't comfortable with HPSP for exactly this reason. I have no interest in working at the intern level for years. Until HPSP abolishes the chance of GMO tours (in writing), I'll look at other options for service. At least with FAP you'll be able to go in as the specialist you want to be.

With FAP, you do get to decide which specialty you want to do, but it also depends if they need you in that specialty that year. I mean, if the applicant to training spot ratio is 2, do you seriously think they'll train twice the orthopods that they actually need? In other words, there's no way of guaranteeing everyone straight-through training in their desired specialty.

 

[notdeadyet]

Didnt mean to say there are NO GMOs in the Army..

But you did:

You complete your 1 year FYGME and then residency..=No GMOs

And when I specifically asked whether this was true, you didn't modify/clarify your claim in any way until other folks currently surving point out that this is not true. It's kind of..... recruiter-y.

Im sure there are a few but incoming HPSP students will not be GMOs. They are forced to apply for a Army and Civilian residency and accept what they matched.

But if you do not match into an Army residency (many of the competitive ones are 1.5 or 2 applicants per slot, so it's not unusual) and you are not granted a civilian deferment (I know of folks who were turned down), GMO is where they end up, yes?

Saying that there are no GMOs and then admitting that there are GMOs makes the claim that GMO tours will suddenly disappear as of.... NOW... a little suspect. As long as there are GMOs and until straight through training in residency of choice is put in writing in the HPSP contract, folks would be foolish to assume somehow that it'll all be different for them.

I just know that incoming HPSP students are basically forced to accept a military residency that they are matched

Yes, but there are more applicants than slots for competitive military specialties. And not everyone who requests a deferment gets one. The unlucky? GMO status until you can apply again. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Honestly this is great discussion. I was uncertain about registering and posting here because of some of the anti-military medicine posts here...but im glad I did...I am the first to admit there is a lot of grey area in military medicine and there is a good amount of stuff that I am either ignorant to or that the military does not have a concrete answer too..

 

[notdeadyet]

Not necessarily. Straight-through training is pretty much guaranteed for everything but the specialties I mentioned.

Yeah, I saw those numbers. You're fine if you're going into something less popular. But popular specialties? The possibility of GMO tour is real.

With FAP, you do get to decide which specialty you want to do, but it also depends if they need you in that specialty that year. I mean, if the applicant to training spot ratio is 2, do you seriously think they'll train twice the orthopods that they actually need?

Which is why I'm interested in seeing what the FAP list is. but they seem to keep it pretty tightly under wraps for some reason. I've yet to be able to find it listed anywhere online.

In other words, there's no way of guaranteeing everyone straight-through training in their desired specialty.

Oh, there is. It's called civilian. I'd happily serve in the military as a residency trained physician. I'm not willing to start 2-4 years to spend doing flight physicals after internship while I bide time until I can finish my training. Some are willing to and I applaud them for it.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

But you did:

And when I specifically asked whether this was true, you didn't modify/clarify your claim in any way until other folks currently surving point out that this is not true. It's kind of..... recruiter-y.

But if you do not match into an Army residency (many of the competitive ones are 1.5 or 2 applicants per slot, so it's not unusual) and you are not granted a civilian deferment (I know of folks who were turned down), GMO is where they end up, yes?

Saying that there are no GMOs and then admitting that there are GMOs makes the claim that GMO tours will suddenly disappear as of.... NOW... a little suspect. As long as there are GMOs and until straight through training in residency of choice is put in writing in the HPSP contract, folks would be foolish to assume somehow that it'll all be different for them.

Yes, but there are more applicants than slots for competitive military specialties. And not everyone who requests a deferment gets one. The unlucky? GMO status until you can apply again. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

You probably are correct...honestly I do not have a concrete answer for you. Out of the 42 HPSP my stationed commisioned between 06-07 all of them matched for a residency. Was it always there first choice? no. Was it one of there top 3? yes!

It is very rare that a student will not match for a army residency...Bottom line is you are more of a asset to the Army if you complete a residency..reason being is your residency doesnt count towards payback. Bottom line is the Army has you longer.

 

[ieatpizza]

Oh, there is. It's called civilian. I'd happily serve in the military as a residency trained physician. I'm not willing to start 2-4 years to spend doing flight physicals after internship while I bide time until I can finish my training. Some are willing to and I applaud them for it.

I'm not trying to sell you on HPSP. I'm just saying it's about weighing the uncertainty. For me there is little to no uncertainty. For others, it's too much to risk. The bad part is when people don't know that they are taking on risks.

And when I said, "In other words, there's no way of guaranteeing everyone straight-through training in their desired specialty," I meant there is no way of the ARMY guaranteeing YOU straight-through training, simply because they have to train an X number of doctors in each specialty based on their needs. Obviously, you can do a lot more to guarantee that when the Army is not paying your tuition.

 

[RDC12304]

At what point are you eligible to obtain a military ID? Does it have to be after OBLC or can if be shortly after taking the oath?


by the way, the discussion taking place in this thread is very helpful for a serious applicant (myself) to be reading...

 

[mrd5003]

Does getting great grades in med school, great board scores, and excellent letters of recommendation from military docs during clinical rotations (or internship) improve a HPSP student's chance of matching into a desired military internship and then residency program? Or is it a lottery system where the lucky few get their first pick of internship and residency? Or something in between?

Can those of you who have trained at the big Army hospitals (Walter Reed, Tripler, Brooke, Madigan) or have some insight into the quality of their residency programs comment on your experiences there? Am I right in assuming that these programs provide the best environment for learning (better teaching, more patient diversity)? I'd imagine that these programs demand a greater level of academic achievement in those who are selected to become housestaff, especially concerning those who have no prior service (that's me) and are not from USUHS (and that would be me too). So my biggest concern relates to that: I know that there's a large chance that I may not get into my desired residency if I follow the military route, but will HPSP automatically relegate me to being completely at the whims of the higher powers during residency placement? Or will the residency placement board make more of an effort to place me into my desired program if I have kicked tail in medical school (DO school in my case) and have shown all of the signs of being a really hard worker?

Although coming out with no debt is extremely attractive, I do have a genuine interest in the Army and am not only applying for the money. With that said, I currently have no plans to stay in the military after my active duty commitment is completed. My chief concern is with the quality of training I may receive one day in the military and translating Army residency training after four years of active duty to a career as a competent civilian doctor.

I'm only interested in the opinions of those of you with insight into Army medical training.

I really appreciate your comments. This is a huge, life-altering decision for me.

--Current Army HPSP applicant

 

[psychbender]

Yes, the Army does have GMOs. There was one on this site heading off to GMO-land maybe a month ago (can't seem to find the thread). From what I hear (admitedly, mostly from this site and some folk at WAMC), its more of a "I didn't match" or "I didn't want what the Army'd give me" type situation, rather than the "awww crap, you mean I have to do this **** for 2 years first?!"

RDC12304: you can get your ID card once you are in the system. It might be easier once you have a set of orders for something (anything, even school orders) in hand, but you should be able to get some form of military ID shortly after comissioning and Senate scroll.